Talk It Up: Peter Hook 28.09.10
The former Joy Division and New Order bass player tells all in this unedited interview about his decision to reincarnate the sacred songs of Unknown Pleasures. This year Hook has taken the immortal songs from Joy Division's seminal debut all around the world, and tonight he'll be playing the full album in Adelaide with his ensemble of family members and friends.
The Joy Division story is one steeped in mythology, mystery and tragedy. In 1979 the band released Unkown Pleasures and followed it up a year later with Closer after the death of the band's singer Ian Curtis. The remaining members went on to form New Order but it's those two Joy Division albums that remain as some of the most interesting recordings in modern music. A slice of hope conveyed through the anger and frustration of Curtis, played to a perfect backdrop of post punk eerieness.
In the years since the band have become immortalised in the feature films 24 Hour Party People (2002) and Control (2007) and their legend lives on the music of countless other contemporary artists who have taken on the influence of the band. In this tell all interview, original bass player Peter Hook gives insight into the creation and legacy of Unknown Pleasures and why his first band has stood the test of time.
Hi there Peter
“Hello mate.”
How are you today?
“I'm not doing too bad thank you.”
Whereabouts are you today?
“I'm in Mallorca in SpainI live here for the summer. I'm very lucky. I have a tiny apartment in a beautiful city.”
What’s it been like taking Unknown Pleasures to all these places where Joy Division never got a chance to tour as a band. Have you been surprised by how extensive the influence has been?
“You know what, we did a gig in Portugal last week and we also did one in Italy in a place called Hanau and I was absolutely amazed at how many people were stood there in front of me in tears when you played Candidate. It was something that I never envisaged, because I’m close to it, I never envisaged the impact of playing it live could have on some people. To watch girls, boys crying, and these kids are like 18, 20, I'm just like, ‘F--k, this is fantastic!’ It’s a hell of an impact to make. And at 54, with my cynical old head on, my musical cynical head that I developed over 30 years, you always think nothing’s gonna shock you. One of the nicest things in the world is that I'm shocked, I'm shocked at how much it means to people that you’ve actually made the effort to go and play the music.”
You’ve said you’ve only recently realised what a great album Unknown Pleasures is. Why do you think that is?
“The thing is I always felt the way that we played – very punky, very loud, very fast – was the way that it should be played. Martin Hannett gave it a breadth and a depth. He deconstructed the songs because he saw something in them that we didn’t see and in truth that’s what a producer should do. A producer should see and make sure that you do not waste an opportunity and if Bernard (Sumner) and I had produced Unknown Pleasures we would have wasted an opportunity to make those songs last a lifetime. And Martin Hannett took that opportunity and made those songs last a lifetime. You can’t thank him enough, really.”
Surely you must have realised over time though that this is a special album?
“Well no. The thing about it is that playing it is such a great pleasure because in all honesty Unknown Pleasures set my life on the course that it’s taken. If I hadn’t have done Unknown Pleasures, I probably wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you today. I've had a f--king great life. As a musician, it’s been fantastic. I've lost millions, f--king millions, but I've had a great time. My son plays bass in the (Unknown Pleasures) line-up and I say to him, ‘Son, if you have half as good a time as I've had, it’ll be fantastic’.
“And it’s that wonderful escape from reality, being a musician. It really is a license to act like an arsehole for all your life. And everybody goes, ‘Oh he’s a musician’. It’s also a great way to get away with really dodgy haircuts. It is an odd job.
“I love Australia, every time we’ve been to Australia we’ve had a fantastic time. From the very first time we went in 1982 when we played at Selena’s in Sydney, right the way through – Byron Bay, Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane Rugby Club we played, we nearly got beaten up by all the rugby players – but we always had a really fantastic time. And to get back there, I’d play Chas & Dave numbers, mate. The promoter, who’s been very, very good actually, was worried as to whether anybody would be interested. But the fact that it’s all sold out and the reason we’ve put these two new dates in is because it’s gone down so well. And it’s a great compliment that you sat there in a freezing cold rehearsal room for hours and days and weeks writing those songs in 1977. To be inspired by Johnny Rotten to do that and to be able to reap the benefits and the rewards of it 30 years later is fucking amazing.”
Where do your days in Joy Division rank among the highlights of your career?
“Well the weird thing about Joy Division was it was such a short period of time, you know it was two and a half years from start to finish. And in that time we never really had it what you would say good, we were just becoming popular when Ian killed himself so it was quite unsullied really. Through New Order you’d have the usual group things like drugs and arguments about publishing, which is very normal of any group, but Joy Division were kept quite pure. So it’s a completely different memory I have of Joy Division. It isn’t sullied in any way, apart from obviously Ian’s suicide.”
Would say because of those reasons that the music you created with Joy Division was the best?
“No I wouldn’t say that because I never differentiate between the groups. I think that New Order made some fantastic music and I think some of our LPs were very underrated. And I do think that Joy Division would have made the music New Order made, that’s my feeling. So I don’t see the two groups as separate, musically. I just see it as one long journey if you like. But the thing is, as I said before, Unknown Pleasures did set the tone for my whole life and I can’t thank Bernard , Stephen (Morris), Ian, Martin Hannett, Rob Gretton and Tony Wilson enough.”
We’re 30 years into the future since Unknown Pleasures and you’re still playing it today. What do you think gives Joy Division and that album the timelessness the both seem to have?
“Great music is great music, whenever it appears. It’s quite funny though when you say you’re still playing it now because don’t forget there was a gap of 29 and a half years when I didn’t play it. Some kid said to me, I was doing an interview before, and he said, ‘What do you think about the accusations of you cashing in on it?’ And I said, ‘Well I must be the only f--king musician who’s waited 30 years to cash in on a record’. Which is bloody typical, I should another book: How Not To Run A Group. If you’re going to cash in, cash in immediately. Don’t wait 30 years like me.
“But the thing is I think that it’s great songs, great production and really it captures the imagination of people. Even I find Joy Division’s music, thanks to the production of Martin Hannett, so wonderful you actually do feel like you could dive in it. The way he deconstructed the songs and deconstructed the recordings and then built it back up again – he took everything you knew as a musician and turned it on its head, creating this wonderful aural scenery. When you listen to it, and don’t forget I only decided to do this in April of this year and I only envisaged doing it once, which was in Manchester. We sold out the first night so we did two nights in Manchester and every single place I’ve played it since has asked me because of that performance in Manchester. So I'm very very new to this thing and I’m still very very nervous because I realise people’s expectation. And I've tried very hard to get a combination of what Martin Hannett did to the record and what Bernard and I wanted to do to the record. So I view the way I'm playing it as an amalgamation of what we wanted and what Martin very very generously gave us.”
The first show in Manchester was on the anniversary of Ian’s death wasn’t it?
“Yeah, the gig was to celebrate his life.”
Were you worried by how that would be perceived by the hardcore Joy Division fans?
“I was f--king terrified. It was a really strange thing to do and to stand up and do it, especially in its entirety, and I got that idea from (Primal Scream frontman) Bobby Gillespie because I was really interested in Bobby Gillespie about Screamdelica and basically a lot of the things he was saying about Screamadelica I felt about Unknown Pleasures. And I thought, ‘Shit, that’s what I'll do. I'll play the first track Joy Divison ever recorded, which was At A Later Date, to Transmission’. And every track we play is chronologically correct and it works and it sounds f--king great, even if I say so myself. When I was up there playing it last week, I really didn’t want to start singing because I just wanted to listen.”
Was it a difficult decision to play these songs without Stephen and Bernard? Were you worried about what they would think?
“Well I'm used to being without Stephen and Bernard now and to be honest with you it’s quite liberating because I always found New Order’s reluctance to play live was a real thorn in my side. So I'm absolutely delighted now that I can do it. I’d much prefer to do it with them but that isn’t possible. So this is my next best thing, really.”
There’s been a lot of interest in the Joy Division and Ian Curtis legacy in recent years, especially in all the films that have been made about you. How have you felt about the way you and the band have been portrayed in those films?
“24 Hour Party People was a very light-hearted look at our story. For me, everybody laughed in the wrong places. Every time it flagged up something about us losing money or doing something wrong, everybody laughed. So Michael Winterbottom did take the farce element of what we’ve done and really exploit it, very successfully actually. I must admit, it’s a very successful film. Everywhere you go in the world, everybody’s seen 24 Hour People People. It’s been really, really well received.
“Control I knew would be different. Anton Corbijn is a very close friend of ours and he’s a great fan of the music. And I knew that his look at us would be much more reverential and much more intense. And I must admit I actually did recognise myself in Control in my character, whereas I didn’t recognise myself in 24 Hour Party People because it was just done as a different film. You know, we’ve been very lucky really to have three films made about us – 24 Hour Party People, Control and the Joy Division documentary, which I thought was fantastic. In all the years I've been with Bernard and Stephen, I've never heard them talk about Joy Division. I had to make that documentary to hear them talk about Joy Division because it was something they never did.”
In your book, The Hacienda: How Not To Run A Club, you talk about the strange nostalgic feelings you felt when they were shooting the Hacienda scenes in 24 Hour Party People. Has performing Unknown Pleasures conjured up similar feelings?
“It does do but to be honest with you I'm concentrating so much on singing and getting it right, and trying to remember all the bloody lyrics, and making sure the band play right – making sure everything’s run to my satisfaction – I don’t get the chance to relax. And look we’ve only played it seven times. By the time we get to you, I'll have played it once more. We’re playing once more in England. Our gig in Melbourne will be the ninth time we’ve played, which for a group is still pretty formative. So I can’t say I've got to the point yet where I'm very cocky about it, I'm still very worried, very nervous about what we’re doing. For that reason I never really relax.
“But as I said before, there’s times when I'm stood there listening to it and realising how wonderful (it is) and what great musicians we were. I mean those songs were f--king great, even if I say so myself. The interest in it 30 years on is a great testament to Bernard, Stephen, myself and Ian’s writing capability at that age because we’d literally only been musicians for six months when we wrote Unknown Pleasures. And considering we started on a whim after seeing The Sex Pistols, we didn’t do bad, did we?”
What’s next? Do you think you’ll do the same with Closer?
“Yeah, I am gonna do the same with Closer. The interesting thing about Unknown Pleasures is the lyrics are very positive and very angry and quite aggressive and the weird thing about Closer is that the lyrics are very introspective and that worries me a little. I've never listened to as much of Ian’s work as I have since I've done this so I do want to do Closer for the simple reason that I'm hoping that maybe it’ll let me come to terms with what happened. I'm looking forward to that bit because to be honest with you over 30 years I've had to live with that every single day and there’s still no answer to it. So I'm gonna be happy to do it, yeah.”
Peter Hook & Friends perform Unknown Pleasures at Her Majesty’s Theatre tonight (Tue Sep 28). Tickets through Ticketek. http://www.ripitup.com.au/article/1772
Words: Jimmy Bollard
