The sad thing is the people who crashed the planes, Thinks it's the absolute right thing to do...
Dates
· UTC
State of the Nation
Locked Archived30 replies · 1,416 views
This is an archived legacy thread. Replies are closed, but the discussion is preserved.
I Think we should bomb the hell out of the areas where they harbor especially where alot of civilians are, Even though it sounds Cold. But these people in these groups don't care if they "the individuals" die. If we prosecute the people who are responsible, big whoop, It will happen again, by other groups or there sons. Kill ther Families, Kill them all, Hurt them where it hurts the most by the way we know how and the Middle-Eastern civilians will go hunt down the people who are terrorists themselves and say "look what you have done to us" It's sounds cold, but that's war. And That's why we won WW2 -Bombing big cities in Japan with killing alot of civilians.
Although I can understand your reaction Andy, I think that would be a terrible mistake to do so, because it would then engender a repetition of events and many other consequences maybe throughout the world.
Haven't we learn anything yet?
I think the first option to find who commended this is diplomacy, by putting pressure on the "host" nations of these terrorists. Of course, the second one is military. But in God's sake, until I'm proven wrong, I think we ought to avoid to hurt any innocent life as much as we can.
Stop the madness.
Like they said, It is War, and that's what happen in a War and if they don't bomb some cities, then it will happen again. Maybe not to this extent, but it's only a mattered of time. This Diplomacy thing is a bunch of BS. If The Draft is instate tomarrow, I wouldn't have a big problem with it.
If the Allies never killed any innocent people ever, we would be living in a Facist Resume as we speak... It's something that has to be done...
Andy -
I can understand your feelings and I sympathise. Many people in the UK seem to feel the same. I was in total shock watching the news footage - I have many American friends, some of whom I love dearly.
However, may I please ask you to read this, to see what your reaction would be:
SCENARIO:
You are living in Afghanistan, (or wherever) your kids' ages are 12, 7 and 3 years old.
You get home from work to hear from your wife that some insane F**K has decided to attack the USA in the name of religion (and in your name?). You didn't ask them to do it. Your wife didn't ask them to. Your kids CERTAINLY didn't. The USA then bombs your village the next day, while you are out at work in the city. Your wife is killed. Your kids are killed.
It's not your fault, your wife's fault or your kids' fault.
But it happened. You might want revenge, but what good would it do? Just more innocents killed, instead of the real perpetrators being brought to justice.
Apply the above scenario, ad infinitum, substituting the names of the countries, and who wins? No one.
What I'm trying to say is, bombing innocent people in 'revenge' because some group of madmen did it to innocent American civilians doesn't resolve anything.
That would make the USA as bad as the scum that perpetrated this atrocity. I, for one, don't believe that the American people are that ignorant.
I may be wrong.
Anyway, rest assured that the prayers and support of the British people are with all US citizens at this time.
Love, hope & peace.
Most or even all of them lovely 12 yr olds kids over there cheered like there Team won the Superbowl. If we don't go bomb the cities there. Guess whats going to happen again, the same thing, just a different type of attack, and guess what buddy! Tuesday many people came home or woke up to there family members probably dead, and it will continue untill we go to war against those countries.
And you know just as well as i do... That these countries in the Middle East are helping the terrorists... I'm sorry more innocent people might die, but if we don't attack, The innocent people will die here over and over again.
The Terrorist do not care if they die, they wanna die because they believe they will go straight to Heaven, It's when there cities, there children, there women die is when they feel sadness and Regret... and hopefully the citizens/supporters of BIN LADEN, turn on him and say "Look At the Hell you have Caused US"....
WW2 when the US bomb Japan... They weren't bombing the leaders, They Hit them where it hurts most. and that's the cities and citizens... As Sad as it seems, Things like that kept Many Countries from a Facist Resume. Oh It's True...
This is the only way to solve the problem! And would be a mistake if we don't attack... There is more oganizations like this, We can not just go after the perpetraters, because other oganizations would do this in the Future... It's the Countries Who is helping these Fuckin' Bastards!
PS. George Bush announce that Friday will be a Day of Mourning... I Just want a official Day of Rage
I agree with you Chris and thank you and your country for your prayers and help for us Americans!
If we bomb Afganistan then innocent people will die and that is horrible (this whole thing just makes me cry uncontrolably) that is not the way to solve things.
There are pros and cons of doing it and not doing it. One thing you said Andy about the children jumping and happy of the news Tuesday is just part of that country. Those were the refugee camps and that is just part of the country. Those are the ones that are born and raised to hate the US, that is all they know. They don't speak for all of Afganistan so we should not be too quick to make judgement.
Hate is what started this and if we continue to hate it will never die. I agree with some things that you say Andy about if we don't do anything to these people then we are saying that it can be done without anything happening in retaliation. This is just a very hard situation where one can't have a solid point of view. I really don't know what to think I just hope we get through this with the least amount of human lives being destroyed.
I was watching CNN today and just to see the interviews of the people looking for loved ones lost in the WTC is just so sad. They have pictures and are crying to find them. The sad thing is the most of them died. This kind of thing is just too hard to bear and I can't believe other human beings can do this.
I am sorry that I let out all of my feelings here but I felt I needed to.
Thank, April.
Originally posted by April Those were the refugee camps and that is just part of the country. Those are the ones that are born and raised to hate the US, that is all they know. They don't speak for all of Afganistan so we should not be too quick to make judgement.
You see, the issue is much more complicated then Andy C seemed to be suggesting. He seem to suggest that every arabic state is just the same, while the reality is quite different. Do you even know that Iran and Irak hate each other, for instance?
The kids and people we saw dancing and cheering in the streets weren't in Afghanistan and weren't Afghan either. They were PALESTINIANS refugees in Lebanon. Quite a difference.
Hence, to enforce my theory to be very careful towards the action that will be taken: your own ignorance can be your most serious threat.
I, of course, agree completely with what Chris Nash has wrote.
And just to make sure that I am not being labelled as a blind pacificator, let me assure you that I am completely FOR a massive relatiation against the terrorists who've perpetrated these acts. I am just not against a blind attack against every Arab in the world.
Those who've been listening on repeat to The Cure's "Killing An Arab" for the last two days should think about that.
Seb.
Listen, I Never said Attack all of the Middle East, But those harboring and you know there is countries harboring them...
My Basic Point is You have to attack... or these things will continue by other groups not involved in this one. and Innocent People Die In All Wars, And this is a war
Originally posted by Sébastien Boisvert > Originally posted by April> Those were the refugee camps and that is just part of the country. Those are the ones that are born and raised to hate the US, that is all they know. They don't speak for all of Afganistan so we should not be too quick to make judgement.
You see, the issue is much more complicated then Andy C seemed to be suggesting. He seem to suggest that every arabic state is just the same, while the reality is quite different. Do you even know that Iran and Irak hate each other, for instance?
The kids and people we saw dancing and cheering in the streets weren't in Afghanistan and weren't Afghan either. They were PALESTINIANS refugees in Lebanon. Quite a difference.
Hence, to enforce my theory to be very careful towards the action that will be taken: your own ignorance can be your most serious threat.
I, of course, agree completely with what Chris Nash has wrote.
And just to make sure that I am not being labelled as a blind pacificator, let me assure you that I am completely FOR a massive relatiation against the terrorists who've perpetrated these acts. I am just not against a blind attack against every Arab in the world.
Those who've been listening on repeat to The Cure's "Killing An Arab" for the last two days should think about that.
Seb.
Thanks Seb.
Originally posted by April There are pros and cons of doing it and not doing it. One thing you said Andy about the children jumping and happy of the news Tuesday is just part of that country. Those were the refugee camps and that is just part of the country. Those are the ones that are born and raised to hate the US, that is all they know. They don't speak for all of Afganistan so we should not be too quick to make judgement.
They might have been cheering and jumping, but they did it with a Pepsi machine in the background.
This might look stupid, but it is more likely those people are not aware of what's going on. Nobody knows what have been told to them, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do the same right now.
I totally agree that using violence is putting yourself at the same low level as the author of those terrible acts. We must act with our brains, not our guns.
Ok guys -you made me see the light, You guys are Right...
Let them do terriost attacks on Us... We shall not kill the innocent, so even if China attacks us with a Nuclear Bomb, We shouldn't Do anything but maybe Surrender. Because it might kill innocent people, That would only make us as low as them. The US should just eliminate basic training also. There is no need for it, Afterall the US should never fight a War again under any circumstances, Because we might kill some Innocent people and be as Low as the attackers.
So let's Not Eliminate Terrorism, but we can hope to contain it, because America will let many freedoms go. Thats Good enough...
In addition, I wish we never bomb All those 130,000 People who died in Japan in 1945 and I wish No countries in history fought back anything evil. Sure we might be living in a Evil Facist Resume right now but Hey That's ok Just as long as No Innocent People Were Killed Because we would be just as Low as them....
Just Takes one Nuclear Bomb to get in the wronge person's hand, War is not pretty, So The US should just surrender to anyone who attacks us, because again If we attack back -we would be as low as them and kill many innocent People...
Andy, it's because of people like you that wars made so many deaths throughout history. And when I mean people like you, I mean people who are reacting before thinking and even when they think they are thinking, it's out of ignorance. Let me show you what I mean:
Originally posted by Andy C Ok guys -you made me see the light, You guys are Right...Let them do terriost attacks on Us... We shall not kill the innocent, so even if China attacks us with a Nuclear Bomb, We shouldn't Do anything but maybe Surrender. Because it might kill innocent people, That would only make us as low as them. The US should just eliminate basic training also. There is no need for it, Afterall the US should never fight a War again under any circumstances, Because we might kill some Innocent people and be as Low as the attackers.
By saying this, you are being very narrow-minded. What you suggested applies perfectly to a standard, common war. A war between two identified countries. What we have here is totally different. It might not even originate from a country.
Here's a Class 101 on Military, Strategic and Diplomatic Theories: What is the purpose of a military action against another country? The military arm of a nation is the last option to enforce the politics of that nation against the politics of another nation (or the threat of their own military action). THE MILITARY OPTION COMES IN ON TWO OCCASIONS:
- WHEN DIPLOMACY HAS FAILED
- WHEN SECURITY IS AT STAKE
What would be the goal of bombing blindly the Middle East, based on that? What political and diplomatic benefits do you get from that? Zero. You only create anger that might put your own security even more in danger in the future. You might create new ennemies as well by doing this, when you had the option of creating allies to reach the goal you are trying to reach.
This is when diplomacy comes out being very handy, and I'm very happy that this seems to be the way that President Bush and former General Powell (now Secretary of State) have taken with a state like Pakistan. They are putting pressure on that state in order to achieve their goals... this pressure being the threat of a military strike and turning the United States of America against them. They cannot afford that, since they are already in a long-term conflict with India.
The more they squeeze the lemon, the better they will achieve their goals and strike the right target and reduce at maximum the "collateral damages". The less innocent people will be killed.
Not only is this the right thing to do morally, but this is the right thing to do STRATEGICALLY.
So let's Not Eliminate Terrorism, but we can hope to contain it, because America will let many freedoms go.Thats Good enough...
So would you be kind enough to tell me how you plan to eliminate terrorism yourself, Andy? Who and where do you want to bomb?
In addition, I wish we never bomb All those 130,000 People who died in Japan in 1945 and I wish No countries in history fought back anything evil. Sure we might be living in a Evil Facist Resume right now but Hey That's ok Just as long as No Innocent People Were Killed Because we would be just as Low as them....
This is pure demagogy. Comparing what happened to the state of the world in the middle of World War II is not exactly a call upon my intelligence.
Just Takes one Nuclear Bomb to get in the wronge person's hand, War is not pretty, So The US should just surrender to anyone who attacks us, because again If we attack back -we would be as low as them and kill many innocent People...
*THEM*. Who?
You sound like a maniac who wants to kill for the sake of killing.
You make me think of those persons in Texas that I saw today on CNN or CBS that were purchasing GUNS because they thought they might need them very soon. Now how crazy is that? But then again, I shouldn't be very surprised since it came from Texas (sorry Mr. White).
These images reminded me that, to a lot of extents, the United States are sick. Hopefully, the events following this terrible tragedy will reveal the beautiful sides of the American society, and push back the uglier ones.
Seb.
Guys, I think your being a little harsh on Andy here. I'm sure he is not alone in having these feelings.
In saying this, I fully agree with your points of view. I just hope the western world (not just America) take their time, investigate thoroughly, and make sure we find the real people that have caused this and take action from there.
Andy, I'm sorry, but you're starting to rant now, mate. Take time out to contain your thoughts, you're becoming almost comical.
How exactly did you react to the Oklahoma bombing, then? Cry for a call to arms against all WASPs and perhaps nuke the Southern States to contain the menace?
For crying out loud, people are dead, and what's your answer?! Hey, kill more people, lots of them! Man, you're a genius!
Now, CALM DOWN!
I think USA must occupy these Arab nations to put own rulers into power. Because local officials are corrupted narrow-minded-suckin-oil-lazy-bastards-with-huge-harem and nothing to do neither for own peoples nor for terrorists revelation. It must be New fuckin' Order - Great American Dominion in the East! And may be those little kids will be stock traders instead of junked islam warriors. I worry only that some brain-washed American people choose wrong aims again, like destitute Iraq and harmless Libya.
My simpathies go to Andy. It is a very specific European malaise (and from what I can see Canadian as well) to think that war is absolute evil and must be avoided at all costs. That is a fallacy. When Liberty is at stake then it is our moral duty to fight for it with all we have and that includes tanks and bombers.
Sorry Seb but Diplomacy has failed. This is not the first attack on democracy (have we forgotten the attack on the US Embassies?). And what has achieved diplomacy so far? Maybe if we had been firmer then the Twin Towers would still be there.
Another point must be made here: Islam is incompatible with civilization. I am not ranting. One of the holy commandments of the Muslims is the "Jihad". The fact is that every Muslim receives a call to extend the Islam through the Holy War. This "draft" admits no exceptions, no dodgers and has never been refuted. Not even by the so called "moderates" In truth, there are no moderates in the Islam.
And a final consideration: Some islamist countries are inmensely rich, some are abjectly poor. None has a happy population. None of their inhabitants is truly free.
Thanks for the support Humberto Vadillo
It's the only way to fully stop terrorism. We shouldn't go on foot,Not with this Diplomacy BS. It will be like another Vietman War, Those Terriorist will pick us off. Did any of you see The O'Reily Factor at 8pm Est Edition Yesterday?... They had some great points...
It's like bullies keep picking on a defenseless kid in a school yard, they will keep doing it untill one day the kid stands up and fight...
You can thank Clinton Adminstration for this, Cutting back on intellegence and military... This Diplomacy is a BS way of handling shit...
Those Damn Liberals are stopping us from going to War
Guys,
I've spent alot of time in Belfast, alot in London. After over 30 years of bombs, shootings, kneecappings, etc. we are finally getting towards some kind of 'peace'. Yes, there are (and always will be) some A***holes who will try to stop this, of whichever persuasion, but they will fail.
The way to effectively deal with terrorism is through politics, negotiation and yes, a hard line against the perpetrators of violence.
However, this does not mean the bombing/indescriminate shooting of civilians by a supposedly 'civilised' government/people.
War is an option, yes, but as Seb so rightly said (and I paraphrase), it is the LAST RESORT.
So, while other options are open to the USA, NATO and others involved, blind hysteria and ignorance will hopefully not prevail.
I think the Last Resort is here, Now!, IT's not first time and happens over and over again...
I just heard that congress has granted the president full control over retaliation....
This is where he is going to be tested!
Trust Me people, the Diplomacy is total BS... They attack the USA, they hate the USA, It's Unilateral. In fact most of the countries would just get in the way instead of really helping...
Get Ready...
The WAR MACHINE has started! 
I just HOPE we don't get too carried away with our Revenge!
April, If they Re-instate the draft, I would not have a problem with it, if my number was called I would be happy to go, maybe not happy but defintley willing...
I have an eerie feeling that Mindbomb by The The was strangely prophetic with its emphasis on middle eastern war. War is not the answer - diplomacy is not BS - but it must be backed up by all nations strongly. Islam is not incompatible with world peace. Many Islamic nations have spoken out against these outrages - including Iran, Libya, Pakistan etc. Jihad may be a facet of extremist groups but to say that all Muslims are dangerous is an insult to that religion, and inflammatory in such a tense time. We in GB have seen race riots recently, and Australia are now experiencing their own. The kind of anti-Muslim remarks being bandied about will do nothing to calm the situation. The USA have been very positive in their approach to the situation so far. There has been no immediate revenge attacks - which I'm sure Andy is unhappy about- but at least it shows us that they are taking their time and finding out all the facts - and we cannot make any judgements because we do not know all the facts. This event is completely different to World War Two - USA's enemy is now faceless and perhaps living in its borders. There is no country to fight - merely extremists and fanatics. There are extremists and fanatics living in many parts of the USA - is the govt to go to war with them too? And anyway are we all sure that the USA did the right thing in Hiroshima and Nagasaki Andy?
For now all we can do is hope that the leaders of the USA get it right. Our prayers and thoughts are with all those who died and are missing, and we must hope that the next move is not one that any of us will REGRET.
Originally posted by Andy C Those Damn Liberals are stopping us from going to War
Andy, this is a New Order forum - do you not have friends/family/workmates with whom to articulate your feelings?! This surely can't be your only outlet to humanity?!
And you never answered my original question - "How exactly did you react to the Oklahoma bombing?" Who were your targets after that day? After all, surely McVeigh bombed out of a (somewhat warped) sense of patriotism?
It seems Americans are perhaps a little ignorant of their own recent history - do I really need to remind you WHO EXACTLY bank-rolled Bin Laden in the first instance?! Then again, he was doing a good job for you against those pesky Commies, wasn't he?! Your enemy's enemy isn't necessarily always your friend.
Take it easy, the red mist will clear with time.
Well Sebsy...I've got my shotgun, my pork rinds, and my 48 pack of Bud Light...no, in all honesty, it was kind of interesting to see some of the neccesities that some of these Texans had to get their hands on. I've never seen a day where we were completely sold out of beer...but TUesday night, they bought up every drop we had. And waiting in line an hour for gas...hey everybody...the Arabs are coming to take their oil back...
So anyway..now back to the point...there seems to be somebody ranting on and on here about how we should just start going out and blowing us stuff just to make a statment. Let me say, even as a violent redneck (hey, I am from Texas), that yes, there does need to be reaction. But, by the same token, we need to make sure that this reaction is aimed at the proper people. Indiscrinate bombing would only make us savages like Mr. bin Laden and all his fellow crazies.
Well, I'm going to see my mom now, funny how events like this make you want your family. Anyways, everybody have a great day.
