"What is the meaning of Mesh/Cries and Whispers"

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on this forum. It's good to be here and thanks for accepting my membership.

I like the song "Cries and Whispers" (I've heard that it was incorrectly labelled as "Mesh" back years ago).

So we are clear, I'm referring to the song which says "ship sails out to sea..away from me. I just stand and stare",etc.etc.

Do we interpret this song literally as in someone who is trying to flee an assassin and the "ship sails out to sea" away from him/her..as in narrowly escaping a bad ending?

Does anyone have an info as far as what the members of the group were talking about in the meaning of the lyrics to the song? I am curious. Thanks for your input.

It's good to be among you all.

Cheers, THG

TingHexagram wrote: Hello everyone,

This is my first post on this forum. It's good to be here and thanks for accepting my membership.

I like the song "Cries and Whispers" (I've heard that it was incorrectly labelled as "Mesh" back years ago).

So we are clear, I'm referring to the song which says "ship sails out to sea..away from me. I just stand and stare",etc.etc.

Do we interpret this song literally as in someone who is trying to flee an assassin and the "ship sails out to sea" away from him/her..as in narrowly escaping a bad ending?

Does anyone have an info as far as what the members of the group were talking about in the meaning of the lyrics to the song? I am curious. Thanks for your input.

It's good to be among you all.

Cheers, THG

New Order lyrics explained

Welcome to the forums!

Much as I'd like to say there's a lot of deep meaning to New Order lyrics, I think a lot of the 1980-1985 ones often seem like strings of sentences that just sound good (or don't!).

Most of the lyrics during this period were, supposedly, written as a group in the studio. This probably means that the lyrics weren't particularly personal or following a specific thread.

Additionally BS had a habit of, when they had a new tune but didn't have lyrics, just making these up at a gig. He would occasionally incorporate these into the final recorded version (presumably if he hadn't thought of any better ones). 'Sooner Than You Think' is a good example of this (pretty sure the 'your country is a wonderful place / to buy a drink there etc.' line was first dreamt up in Switzerland (Valkhaus?). Seem to remember him saying other less pleasant things about the place during the gig as well as that line.

It wasn't until around Technique that BS started to take more control on the writing of lyrics and things started to have more of a flow to them (whether this style of writing is better than the previous way is subjective, I guess).

However, that being said, the first few tracks they wrote (Movement and tracks on Ceremony, Procession & EGG) were, I believe written with a bit more care; the band trying to emulate Ian's lyrical ability. Cries & Whispers was, as you know, one of those songs, so it's possible there was a message they were trying to convey with this one. Actually, C&W was one of the very first songs they wrote together (before much of Movement) and changed quite a bit between their first few gigs and release on the EGG 12". You could try having a listen to the earlier lyrics (on bootlegs) to see if it shows, at least, a little something of what they were trying to convey.

Here's an example of an early live version:

https://youtu.be/iCqOuyec2PM

Listen around the 9:40 point.

Might be difficult hearing the lyrics though. There might be other examples out there. They pretty much played it at all the pre-Gillian gigs (i.e. the 1980 ones) and maybe some later ones.

Did I not read somewhere that Steve wrote the lyrics to Cries & Whispers?

Quite possibly. Steve used to sing it live in the early days, like Procession and Ceremony, so that would make sense. I think, like Ceremony also, he used to share vocal duties with Hooky in that song; one doing the verse and the other the chorus. If you didn't know, C&W used to have a different bit (not sure you'd call it a chorus) to it back in those days, which is not on the released version. Hooky used to sing that bit, with Steve doing the verses (i.e. the bits that are on the released version).

Well, that's what it sounds like to me, anyway.

Think Steve might have written the words to Procession too.

What did surprise me, reading Hooky's JD book, was that he wrote the lyrics to Novelty and (possibly less impressively) At A Later Date. I thought Ian would have written all the lyrics.

Thank you all for your fine input.

Andy, worth mentioning, the link you posted about NO lyrics explained did not really generate anything other than a page for some financial news.

Am I to understand that unlike some groups/artists there has never been an interview in lets say.."Rolling Stone" or "Timeout NY" or any entertainment oriented magazine or newspaper where anyone(singer, guitar player, anyone) in the group stated "The meaning of cries and whispers was about a song where ------------------------------- (then describing what the song was about), or "the meaning of True Fate was about a song where ----------------------------------- (same idea).

Nothing?

I read somewhere that "1963" was about the JFK assassination (which I find to be chronologically odd since Kennedy was killed in November and not "January 1963".

Yeah. That's pretty much the case. The band are usually reluctant to explain the lyrics. I can't think of any articles where they explain their intentions with the lyrics (not saying there aren't any, but they're pretty rare).

I imagine the reason for this is mainly the whole 'they're open to your own interpretation' thing (which I totally agree with), but probably also a little to do with the obtuseness of the lyrics, where they're possibly difficult to explain.

I actually love their lyrics (well, certainly their 80s ones). The inability to decipher them is one of the main reasons I was attracted to the band in the first place. I remember when I first heard True Faith, I found the lyrics (coupled with New Order's non-image) to be incredibly mysterious and impenetrable.

'I get this feeling I'm in motion, a certain sense of liberty'. 'That my life would depend on the morning sun' 'I see a ship in the harbour, I can and shall obey'.

Brilliant stuff.

As for 1963, I think the whole JFK thing was a bit tongue-in-cheek and stems from a couple of interviews and a little segment that appeared in a New Order music/lyric book released in the early 90s (if I can find this online, I'll link to it at the end of this post). Sumner's theory of the JFK assassination was, believe it or not, that Kennedy tried to get Jackie assassinated so that he could be with Marilyn Monroe, but Lee Harvey missed and hit JFK. Which really doesn't hold any water, as MM died over a year before the JFK assassination.

I would imagine that the reason he said this was either:

a) The song had nothing to do with the JFK assassination but Sumner reacts to journalists always asking him to explain himself and makes some stuff up; or b) Sumner has a theory about JFK then just adapts this to fit the song about spurned love that he was writing.

If he did believe in his whole Monroe/failed assassination attempt theory, you can probably put his incorrect facts down to the song being written in the pre-internet age. If you had a theory like that these days, a simple web search, and the discovery that Monroe died months before, would blow your theory out of the water in a matter of seconds, i.e. long before you had the chance to make yourself seem a little silly in front of journos. :-)

Anyway, here's Sumner's theory from the lyric book. Enjoy:

1963

I see professors of New Order at Oxford and Cambridge and London School of Economics teaching the lore and lives and loves of New Order

Hey, I'd enroll. 😁

TingHexagram wrote: thanks for accepting my membership.

Yes, rigorous selection policy round here. According to An Ideal For Living (so it must be true), the song Steve mainly wrote was Procession. Quite honestly I think it's mainly Barney Blarney, tossed off half high (or completely high).

For a pop girl group fan, you know a lot about NewOrder...

"Anyway, here's Sumner's theory from the lyric book. Enjoy:"

Wait..there is a book of lyrics?

Isn't that essentially an explanation of the lyrics of NO? Not just 1963, but others?

Just saying....

Getting back to the vagueness of the lyrics and purposely leaving the meaning "open for interpretation"? I suppose. If the band has been sort of slow to open up about what they meant in any of their songs, couldn't fans contact them and ask?

Re: Cries and whispers/Mesh: I sort of applied it to something I was going through in my 20s(I'm 49 now). My 20s were a mess..I was thrown in jail (twice) for drunk driving. Because I was put on probation (I got my 2nd arrest when I was a year into my probation for my first offense)..they sort of added both probation sentences to eachother. So for 6 whole years, I couldn't leave the state! (I was born and raised in New Hampshire). Anyway (and yes, I learned my lesson for LIFE!!), I'm not sure why this happened other than people do things because they CAN...not because they are logical or rational...but while I was on those 6 years of probation.after my 2nd year of it, I was stalked in my hometown of Peterborough. So I always liked NO songs, and when I got the notice saying "Dear Mr. McIntyre, please be advised you have been discharged from probation supervision, we wish you success in your future endeavors". I jumped for joy and moved pretty far away (to Michigan) as I have friends who live there.

Anyway, the lyrics which says "Assasin clears his hands, I know that and..I wasn't even there!" (I visualized moving far away from my stalker and having him look for me in N.H. and him "clearing his hands" and giving up!)

Then the lyric where it says "ship sails out to sea, away from me..I just stand and stare" (I visualized finally feeling safe after all of that trauma and chaos) and "staring out to sea" and looking at the waters of lake Michigan as my "ship" dropped me off far away from N.H. and dropping me off away from the "danger area".

Then when he says: "All flight departures, assembled, not returned". I thought "Yup. I flew from New Hampshire to Michigan. Never to "return" (ie: not returned)

Then he says: "There's hope, you've heard, there's life in another world" This line was significant to me since I never gave up hope and said to myself "If I ever make it out of this in one piece there is a new life outside of this town and I am determined to find it"

Sermon over..LOL. Thanks for indulging me friends :)

I'm sure many of you might be rolling your eyes and maybe laughing at me. That's fine. Just saying that this song was therapeutic in listening to it

P.S. I listed Massachusetts rather than Michigan in my profile for confidentiality reasons.

Read more: New Order - Cries & Whispers Lyrics | MetroLyrics

keepitcoming wrote: I see professors of New Order at Oxford and Cambridge and London School of Economics teaching the lore and lives and loves of New Order

KIC hits the nail on the head again. I myself am ex-Cambridge and distinctly remember Stevie Hawking saying he was uninterested by seeking the innermost mysteries of the eternal macrocosm and in dire need of new stimulus. He was of course referring to lyrics like 'Why don't you piss off', music as varied as Video 86 and the massive rock operatics of Night Voice. He gets bored easily, you see. Bernard's lyrics are notoriously complex and abstruse: 'You reached out in your sleep, and you felt my big fat cock'... 'When I walked through the door my wife she laid upon the floors, She was sucking cocks that whore'... 'I got a dick longer than the M1'... WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN? Special mention to McCartney's Press for:
Oklahoma Was Never Like This... Never Like This, It Was Never Like This. Ever Like This, Tell Me Was It Ever Like This? Oklahoma Was Never Like Thi-i-i-i-is... Oh, It Was Never Like This!

See, this is why it's good to not know the writer's intentions for each song. 😊 We can interpret things in our own way and it makes them seem more personal to us. There have been times when I've learned what the writer meant with lyrics and have been really disappointed, thinking that my interpretation was far better.

I always thought that the line was 'Assassin clears his lens, another end, I wasn't even there', i.e. him cleaning the scope of a rifle. In fact, I've just seen the lyrics written down online and I have a few other discrepancies.

For what it's worth, here are what I think the lyrics are. I've put quotes around missing or incorrect lyrics:

Below the surface this day I need it light Inside dimension lies another sacrifice Once out of reach, we never speak, we never compromise As they turned to gold the 'air just' froze and seemed to turn to ice

All flight departures assembled not returned Left in these passions I looked but never learned There's hope, you've heard there's life in another world Sometimes 'we'll' find that truth is never kind In the ghost lies a 'portrait's face' that time is never here In the mind of a fallen man, 'a new' day in another land Ship sails out to sea, away from me, I just stand and stare Assassin clears his 'lens' 'another end', I wasn't even there

One day it 'changed your' mind we 'can' leave the rest behind Some day, I know, 'forget' where you should go There's hope, you've heard, there's life in another world Sometimes we'll find that truth is never kind One day it 'changed your' mind we 'can' leave the rest behind Some day, I know, 'forget' where 'you should' go 'Let's hope, you've heard, there's life in another world.'

In respect of the lyrics book, this was sheet music and lyrics for songs appearing on Substance 1987 plus a few others. It didn't discuss meanings of songs. Instead, the only other things in it were some silly doodles, or equally daft notes that the band were (presumably) asked to contribute to the book. These doodles were in the style of 'The Man With The Stick' drawings from a surreal UK cult television programme popular at the time - 'Vic Reeves' Big Night Out'. The explanation of 1963 that I posted above was one of those 'daft notes'. I don't believe any other explanations were given, apart from an equally daft BLT explanation.

Here are some images of the book:

http://www.worldinmotion.net/neworder/publications/songbooks.htm

perspexorange wrote:

It wasn't until around Technique that BS started to take more control on the writing of lyrics and things started to have more of a flow to them (whether this style of writing is better than the previous way is subjective, I guess).

The above sounds like it's based on Peter Hook's version of their history - and therefore I wouldn't take it as the gospel. It's understandable for someone who has a share in something of either financial or artistic value to big up their part, and this is the impression I get from Hook, when he's repeatedly asserted the lyrics/vocal melodies were written by the group up until Technique. Closer to the truth might be Bernard wrote the bulk of the lyrics, and the others chipped in up until Technique. I'd guess Movement as the first album, was the most collaborative, with the two songs sung by Hook being penned by him. Even so, I recall quite a well known interview with Bernard, after the success of Blue Monday, when he admitted on Movement he was trying to emulate Ian's style, but on Power Corruption & Lies, he wrote lyrics subconsciously, and he felt the result was more meaningful. Note, way back then, Sumner had no reason to exaggerate his involvement, unlike Hook since he left...

I agree that the version given by Hooky is possibly skewed (much like his opinion of Gillian's input). I do think I've heard some level of agreement from the others though; that there was a degree of collaboration on lyrics. I think you are right that Movement is probably the most collaborative. Also, I agree that Sumner contributed the lion's share of the lyrical input, especially on the later albums. My statement about him writing the lyrics solo around Technique is probably based more on the fact that the lyrics took on a more 'personal' slant at this point, rather than info contained in Hooky's book. However, I guess I may have been slightly influenced by some of the 'facts' he stated within.

Talking of Gillian's contribution, I read the Butterworth book, 'The Blue Monday Diaries', last week. In it, he makes several references to Gillian's not insignificant input; playing synths, programming complicated sequencer patterns, even playing the guitar on a couple of PC&L tracks (We All Stand and, I think, Leave Me Alone). The latter kind of surprised me, as I would of thought Sumner would've played all guitar in the studio, with Gillian only playing guitar live.

Butterworth also makes reference to how Gillian was the only one not doing drugs, and hinted at the fact that she could be relied on whilst the others were off their head. Apparently she was often found either practicing or laying down tracks in Brit Row, whilst the others were hanging out in the Games room. In fact, Butterworth probably references Gillian working more times than he does the others.

So much for Hooky's theory that she was a fifth wheel. I guess it makes his court case seem stronger if he plays down her contribution though. I guess he feels it's easier to gain leverage on the group if he can convince others that he was a 'third' of the (contributing element) of the group, rather than a 'quarter'.

The more I see of Hooky, the more he annoys the crap out of me.