CEREMONY -- attn. Allen Jarvis et al

Disc 4 - LIVE : Mike Pickering CEREMONY

Hooky: Playing live, you go through phases where you're fed up with all of them. I'm really fed up with Ceremony.

THEN CHANGE THE FUCKING SET YOU WANKER!

Why at the age of 50 do these men not do what they want to do rather than pander to the masses? Do they really want to keep playing songs they hate? I hope when i reach 50 i don't have to gear my life to someone elses needs.

Quite simply because at the age of 50 (which they're not), they have overwhelming obligations to their record company, tour backers and pension plans.

They no longer have the freedom, drive or energy to make wholesale changes to setlists. You'll have to live with it, Biz.

I for one am grateful that they're still around and maintaining respect. The fact that they can still produce quality tunes and actually bother to tour are massive bonuses.

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Originally posted by depthcharge Quite simply because at the age of 50 (which they're not), they have overwhelming obligations to their record company, tour backers and pension plans.They no longer have the freedom, drive or energy to make wholesale changes to setlists. You'll have to live with it, Biz.I for one am grateful that they're still around and maintaining respect. The fact that they can still produce quality tunes and actually bother to tour are massive bonuses.:\pimp3:

So they send the set lists to London/Warners to get it approved and then to the promotors to see if they agree? Nonsense.

I don't understand how any band doesn't have the freedom to change their set list. It's their fucking show they can play what they like. Except they fill the set with tracks they're sick of playing. Surely there isn't someone in a big office in London saying..."You better finish with Blue Monday or you can't get a new snazzy Flash Filled website to promote the box set"

Barely maintaining respect...barely.

PENSION PLANS - The real issue and mentioned on tour by Barney a few times.

I am not a fan of REM anymore but they played a show here in Seattle that was unannounced, super cheap tickets, and filled with obscure album cuts and covers...They are on a major label etc...but still pulled out all the stops for a true Fan Show. Bjork let fans pick the tracklisting for her Greatest Hits collection and has released/is releasing several live shows in full. Now, who is in charge at the NewOrder camp? Certainly not Hook, Morris and Sumner. Sounds like they had very little to do with the box set with the exception of Barney worried about his vocals. It seems that when they lost Rob Gretton, they lost the spirit and attitude that WAS neworder. Now they come across as major label puppets.

I think you're right about them playing Ceremony to shut Jarvis and Giles up for a bit.

Don't you hate when people in the audience only want to hear "the hits"...some actually leave after "their song" has been played. I lose respect for bands that do what they think the fans want and not what makes them happy. This new attitude for live gigs is the polar opposite from the 80's gigs. Were you happy at the Cure show or did you suddenly feel the urge to buy a hot dog?

maybee they like playing ceremony!?! dont they not like the perfect kiss ? they dont play that! and it is one of the "HITS"

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid So they send the set lists to London/Warners to get it approved and then to the promotors to see if they agree? Nonsense. I don't understand how any band doesn't have the freedom to change their set list. It's their fucking show they can play what they like. Except they fill the set with tracks they're sick of playing. Surely there isn't someone in a big office in London saying..."You better finish with Blue Monday or you can't get a new snazzy Flash Filled website to promote the box set"Barely maintaining respect...barely.PENSION PLANS - The real issue and mentioned on tour by Barney a few times.I am not a fan of REM anymore but they played a show here in Seattle that was unannounced, super cheap tickets, and filled with obscure album cuts and covers...They are on a major label etc...but still pulled out all the stops for a true Fan Show. Bjork let fans pick the tracklisting for her Greatest Hits collection and has released/is releasing several live shows in full. Now, who is in charge at the NewOrder camp? Certainly not Hook, Morris and Sumner. Sounds like they had very little to do with the box set with the exception of Barney worried about his vocals. It seems that when they lost Rob Gretton, they lost the spirit and attitude that WAS neworder. Now they come across as major label puppets.

Sorry, but I see things completely differently.

*Obviously I'm not saying there's any such direct influence exerted by their record company, tour organisers, management, etc, but it's incredibly naive to think there's no indirect influence. Do you think the band would continually attract the cash cow offers to play the big world festivals if they decided that for now on they're going to play the lesser known stuff we want to hear and lose the hits? At any given New Order concert (more so outside of the UK), MOST of the audience are punters who have a medium or passing interest in the band. They want to hear the True Faiths, BLTs, etc. The band are at a position in their career where they don't have to do the cool, unsafe, experimental set to gain kudos - they've been there, done that. Too esoteric equates to less cash. If NO arrive back from an unsuccessful tour playing none of the hits, they're a less valuable commodity for the record company. Record deals are less lucrative. They've now got mortgages, kids, pensions, etc to think about and your values in life change dramatically as you move towards 50.

I'm not implying that they can't 'gain a few / lose a few' tunes into their sets, I'm just explaining why there will always be a formula to their playlist. It's naive to think that these factors don't play a role. Do I support it? As a hardcore fan, no. Can I appreciate the context in which it occurs? Yes.

*"Barely maintaining respect". You're being incredibly harsh. I assume this is one of your trademark inflammatory comments. Look at some of New Order's contemporaries and tell me who's maintaining respect?

-NO, reconvening after a long hiatus and delivering a popular AND critically acclaimed album in today's unwelcoming plastic pop / soul, R&B / nu-metal / boys with guitars -dominated market AND then travelling the world to deliver their fans some long, long, long awaited live shows.

-The Cure (a living parody); Depeche Mode (delivered a dog with fleas last album); PSB (haven't put out a half-decent tune in almost a decade); The Smiths / Stone Roses / Mondays et al, (internally combusted).

*"Pension plans" are an implicit issue. It will be for you when you're older also. How many musicians continue to take risks, go off on successful creative tangents, remain cutting edge, maintain the rage, the youthful energy, etc when they're into their 30s/40s? It's not a common trend.

*REM are less reliant on technology to produce their music than New Order. NO are less able to chop and change their setlist without major involvement of others. It's not a simple comparison. Yes, New Order appear lazy and should have got Mr Lyons to facilitate the integration of new tunes into the set. And maybe if they practised more they could play more of the guitar-based songs. But part of their charm is their pioneering use of technology and their inadequacies to ever completely master it. They're a slave to it now.

*As you've eloquently mentioned previously, "New Order don't give a fuck about their fans". Untrue.

-You may want to make a basic discrimination between fans and hardcore fans. There's a valid argument that every time New Order play BLT live they are most certainly 'pleasing their fans'. That's what the masses come to hear. Hardcore fans may disagree but they're less numerous and carry less weight.

-Second, what the hell do you think Retro is? Four discs chosen by respected industry fans PLUS the addition of disc 5 solely due to the feedback of grass root fans like us. Given the accompanying personalised text from the booklet (as evidenced on the Retro website), it appears the band had plenty of direct contribution on the release. What exactly do you want? Be realistic. To finance an expensive, lush-looking project like the box-set you actually do need to be guaranteed to sell a few copies. From what I'm seeing, Retro is an admirable combination of hits, remixes, album tracks regular punters may not be so familiar with, previously unavailable live tracks, a whole bonus disc of gems for the hardcore fan, complemented by a comprehensive booklet and the band's own sleeve notes. Consummately packaged by Saville. Is this the end product of a band who don't give a shit?

I've rambled. Well done if you've read it. Incessant, myopic criticising of the band who've delivered so much makes me wonder why bother remaining a fan?

:\pimp3:

Sorry, but I see things completely differently....

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all i ever want is for someone to show me the other side and prove me wrong...nicely done DepthCharge.

I truely love NewOrder and their music...the surge in Primitive Notion tells me there is still some magic left in them.

I know they need to play the requisite hits to be lucrative on the road but mix it up a bit. They have enough incredible music to do two consecutive sets of hits without repeating a single song.

I have seen the most incredible electronic beats and atmospherics done by actual people on the fly...triggering preprogrammed loops but "playing" them live...(as with Ableton Live software). It makes for a very live feel to a programmed set of sounds. New Order's live sound would be enhanced with another electronic component. Mark Bell did an amazing job with Bjork and i'm sure they could find someone willing to provide the beats and effects necessary for playing other songs. When you watch the Perfect Kiss video you see them perfom the song with ease on ancient gear. Wouldn't that be easier today?

Much as it pains me to say it, but credit where it's due - Senor Charge has articulately hit the nail on the head repeatedly above. At the risk of being argumentative though Biz, I disagree about the "same setlist every night" whine - from what I have seen, they have been mixing it up a fair bit given the list of songs they've rehearsed. Since the GR tour has started, they have been known to do between 10 and 16 songs from the following list: Transmission Isolation Love will tear us apart She's lost control Digital Atmosphere New Dawn Fades Ceremony Temptation Blue Monday Your silent face Love vigilantes Bizarre love triangle True Faith Touched by the hand of God World in (fucking) Motion Regret Ruined in a day Crystal 60 miles an hour Turn my way Slow Jam Rock the shack Brutal There may be some I'm forgetting, but as it stands that's a list of 24 songs. I'm no mathemetician, but I'm sure that would be a substantial list of possible combinations of songs. I do agree that some of the above get played much more than others, there is a certain formula that the setlists have taken recently, and that there are substantial omissions of my personal favourites, but I would be surprised if anyone can say they have seen them do identical setlists from the above, let alone night after night. Just an opinion CTB

if i understand... in the past, JD/NO just pretty much decided a playlist just before the show, then did an encore only if they felt the mood was right, adding an element of spontaneous/impulsive atmosphere... just like a lot of smaller indie bands do every day now.... but now i think people are complaining that everything is more structured/staged, and that indie element is lost.

EVERY band that has been around 20 years has the problem that people just wanna hear the songs they know best, especially if they have an aging fanbase who are stuck in their old ways.
if New order goes to a large festival, a large chunk of the audience will only be familar with a couple of songs i would guess, prob. Blue Monday, BLT, True Faith, and the silly World in Motion. they have to play something the bored masses have heard to get attention.

as far as playing, i think they should stick to the basic band format... adding a computer/ synth/ labtop whiz prolly won't help, or if it does the result will really not be a New Order concert.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid all i ever want is for someone to show me the other side and prove me wrong...nicely done DepthCharge.I truely love NewOrder and their music...the surge in Primitive Notion tells me there is still some magic left in them.

Sorry if I came on like a roadtrain there, Biz. You're quite the firestarter some times ;)

I've always wondered whether Mark Bell could get the best out of NO in the studio. Didn't work last time out with Depeche Mode, but how much of that was his doing was a moot point.

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I think if you have been in a band or some other creative effort where you are involved with your past work on an ongoing basis, it is a lot easier to understand the love/hate relationship that *always* exists. Hooky doesn't really hate Ceremony, he felt that way at that moment when he made that statement, but even at that moment I assure you he loved it too, he was just burned on it. I've felt that pendulum swing too, sometimes when you listen to a playback of your stuff or dig it up for a show it is the worst piece of shit anyone's ever done and you wish you had never lived, then later when it's 'on' and everybody is telling you it rocks you are on top of the world for a while and you think the whole purpose of your life was to create that piece of music so you can be up there playing that particular rendition of it at that particular moment. That's the way it goes. I am certain NO have never and will never have their setlists dictated to them by industry weenies.

oh, and everybody on this planet except for Bill Gates has to gear their lives to other people's needs and wants, whether they are 1, 10, 30, 50, or 75. Or 43. The only question is to what extent and what manner you make the compromises. Almost everybody in the pop music business does it with less grace and more bending over than NO.

Well if hooky is fed up with 'Ceremony' lets do a deal,they never have to play it EVER again if they release the original single version on a CD that we can all buy and take home and cherish.