Special offer to the members of NewOrderOnline.com from Razormaid

Have you heard these albums? Do they suck? Are they awesome? Are they at least better than Rest Of - which I hated (with the exception of about 2 songs). I'd like to order them, but awful unintelligable remixes annoy me.

Ok I did it. I ordered Part 2 and Part 1, but no Depeche Mode.

I listen to most of them on the samples and they are just cut and Paste jobs, but for a total of 20.00 I said why not.

But beware, there is no security, so your Credit card is open for anyone to see, if they know how.

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This is intriguing. I'm considering spending the $20.00 on the the 2 discs just so I can erase them.

After all the shit they say about New Order, why would I want to buy their product?

Interested but a tad worried bout the Credit card protection, is there a way to circumvent this?

THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.

Razormaid shall not in any way be allowed to sell such products after spreading such non-sense.

I hope they are aware New Order's management is lurking over here.

As much as I would like to hear their mixes, I shan't be taking them up on their "offer" for two reasons.

1. The credit card area of their site is fundamentally unsafe.

2. Who the f... do they think they are ? I wouldn't give them 20 cents after all this, let alone $20. It's not even a very generous offer from them - let's face it, they goofed by taking the high and mighty attitude to start with, then it suddenly dawned on them that there were a lot of New Order fans out there who buy any old shit as long as it says "New Order" on the box, so they are ripping you all off ! I'll wager that they would hardly sell any to non-NOOL members anyway - let's face it, they ain't exactly top-notch mixes anyway !

They are so concerned about protecting themselves, but offer no protection to credit card users?

It's their way of apology all right, but more people may be willing to accept this apology if they would just admit that they were wrong...

Originally posted by Warm Hands, Cold Heart vsultan@hotmail.comwho is that ?!

Let's send him some virus...

I would have bought both CDs if only Razormaid accepts PAYPAL....

It's just so darn problematic using my credit card coz the address on my card is unsafe for deliveries.

Razormaid should have a column for MAILING ADDRESS which can be different to the address on credit card....but then again, this would only invite frauds...oh, well.....

I'd be interested, but don't have a credit card. Oh well.

And I dunno why everyone's being so abusive towards razormaid. Yeah they were rude first, but isn't it a bit petty to get so worked up about it?

I'd like to have those too, but I wanted to ship them to an address which is different from my credit card's. :\ohwell:

I tried to ask Razormaid about this, but I could not find any link/e-mail for questions. Nicolas, could you ask them about that? Thanks in advance!!

Well, it is not my problem if they don't want to sell overseas... so sorry, but I won't have it shipped to Brazil and pay those outrageous import taxes that make a CD cost twice its price. No Razormaid for me, then.

Originally posted by Spider In A Land Of Meat Well, it is not my problem if they don't want to sell overseas... so sorry, but I won't have it shipped to Brazil and pay those outrageous import taxes that make a CD cost twice its price. No Razormaid for me, then.

Hey Guy,

I could pick up a copy from them and mail it to you....maybe we could trade for something you have dupes of or you could just reimburse me :)

lemme know

Response from RAZORMAID... Makes me think twice.... I went ahead and opted for all of the cds, 5 for $47 (with shipping) but I wanted to give the Depeche Mode cd's away as gifts to my friends... Doesn't look like I have the option, unless I want to take a chance and go to jail?

I guess I have some time to think about it...

RAZORMAID WROTE::: You are solely responsible for this product. If it is duplicated, resold,auctioned or handled illegally in any way (including file sharing on the Internet), the electronic "watermark" which we have designated on each track of each disc made, will be traced back to you and you will be held legally responsible.

For the curious... compression and re-encodeing do not affect the "watermark",as we are literally removing "slices" of music which although can not be heard,but can be seen when downloading the track and viewing it through Sound Designer; matching the millisecond removal against what the ID# listed for tha removal point.

As you can imagine, this "watermarking" procedure is extremely time consuming,but 100% affective in pinpointing down the owner of the disc. For this reason,PLEASE be careful and do not leave it laying aroundwhere a friend could get their hands on it, without your knowledge. If you need ANY clarification abouthow the fingerprinting (watermark) technique can be legally used to prosecute you for misuse, it's better you ask now, then find out later.

Should any misuse arise, Razormaid Records will be forced to legally prosecute,if the record label who owns the rights, demands action be taken. This is inaccordance with the contracts we have signed and agreed to with the artists'record label, in order to produce and distribute this disc to registered members of Razormaid Productions.

Attached to this E-mail is the release form for all "watermarked" discs, which you will need to print out and mail it back to us, before any product can be shipped out to you. Sorry, no FAXes. We need the original copy you signed,legally. Don't forget to fill in everything it asks for, including the ID#, as it will be required before we can ship any product out to you. No ID# will be required for the other 3 discs listed on the order form, as they were originally produced, prior to the "watermarking" technique was created.

*** P.S. No credit cards will be debited until after the relase form arrives. If afer reading all of this, you decide you would rather not take part, please let us know. We're sorry for all mumbo jumbo, but we need to protect ourselves, and going through all of this is the only way that we can release this product. To date, 5 people have been arrested,3 Internationally and 2 in the USA, so please use caution after the disc arrives.

WOW, Im sorry that they have my credit card number now...

Read the response(s) I received from ONE QUESTION I had and you will be SHOCKED, just as I am...

I sent the following question, just because I wanted to know.

QUESTION FOR RAZORMAID: Joseph,

Thank you for the email!

I was hoping to give all of the Depeche Mode cds as GIFTS to my friends.. Is this out of the question?

Please let me know.

Thank you.

PEACE Steven

RESPONSE #1

Yes, absolutely out of the question.

Please... re-read that message VERY carefully. You and only you are responsible for any misuse of the "watermarked" discs. That means when your "good friend" loads them up to Kaaza or some other file sharing web site, we come arrest you, because YOU signed for them anbd agreed to being arrested if they were made available to anyone other than you..

Was this not made clear enough in that message?

We tried to convey the seriousness of what we would be forced to do in a situation like that, but obviously our message is not scary enough. We did not want it to sound too threatening, but if you did not understand that you would be arrested not your friend, then maybe we need to reword it. We were going to actually list the 5 people we had arrested in the last 16 months, when 3 individuals tried to upload it to several "file exchange" web sites and 2 others tried to sell their copies on Ebay. We were considering even listing their arrest so that people could check it out to prove we were telling the truth, but that seemed to scary to put in a, "Hi - hey how's it going - welcome to Razormaid" letter.

Would that help if we listed that info too?

Let me know, because we want to make sure the working is such that no one will do something that they will ultimately be responsible for.

Let your friend buy it if he wants them and then he will be responsible for the legal ramifications.

jw

RESPONSE #2

After speaking to Joseph just now, we have decided to pull your order and cancel your request, based on the information that you gave us. We are not punishing you, it's just that the subscribers in Florida have caused us more grief, than all the other US States and Countries around the world - combined.

For some reason, the people in Florida feel that they are not obliged to our rules and statements they are forced to sign, costing us thousands of $$ in lawyer fees, to help them understand, when we have them arrested. In 18 years of operating, we have had 11 people in Florida alone - arrested for bootlegging and other criminal misuse of Razormaid product.

Quite frankly, we do not need the headache and certainly don't want to wipe out or $1.87 profit for each New Order Fan Club order we get, just to arrest a few Florida people. It just isn't worth the risk or the loss. We're already releasing this nearly at our cost - seriously..

I appreciate your candid honestly, (although we're perplexed why you would want to risk going to jail for a friend - that logic escapes us), but your failure to comprehend what you were signing, was obviously following the same logic as past subscribers from Florida. Our subscribers in Floirda either can't read, won't read, or just think they are "above" the rules laid down by the record labels who make us sign contracts that state we will control each release, and the actions of the people that purchase them. This is not Hot Tracks or Ultimix. We actually DO get signatures from therecord labels that hold the rights of the artist and the signature of the artist as well, for each track we work on. We know most of these artist personally and meet with them at least once a year. We can't afford to just "release it" without a series of approvals.

Please consider this canceled at this time.

I'm very sorry, but their no guarantee that some day you get tired of your New Order discs and simply hand them to someone wolaking donw the street, or a "good friend",

Yale Patton Razormaid Productions Owner

Razormaid take themselves much too seriously. If their product was truly legitimate, the record labels wouldn't restrict their distribution to this extent.

I was wondering whether Mr. Patton realizes that the wording of his second response to Steven leaves him open to litigation on the basis of their not wanting to sell to Florida people just because they are from Florida.

"Our subscribers in Floirda (sic)either can't read, won't read, or just think they are "above" the rules laid down by the record labels"

I think Razormaid have proved once and for all that they are paranoid pricks.

A quick search on Kazaa just found 357 razormaid files, including 14 New Order & 24 Depeche Mode. I guess someone's in big trouble!

I didn't download any, of course.

why not?

This 'watermarking' business seems well over the top. Just out of curiousity, could such a thing possibly be enforced? It sounds rather ludicrous to me. It would imply you'd have to gaurd your disk carefully for the rest of your life - don't let anyone borrow it or leave it alone with someone in case they rip mp3s or copy it, don't lose it or be burgled...

I'd be interested if it were easier to buy it from overseas, but as it is, forget it.

There's absolutely no way that they have access to master tapes when their product is so poor. Essentially, they re-edit, repeat, speed up or slow down existing parts of songs. The most impressive thing about Razormaid is that they've managed to survive for so long peddling this crap.

I received my discs in the mail today after picking them up at the post office. Each cd is housed in a platic PVC wallet (nice size). And I have just started to listen to the 1st CD. So far so good.

I have been impressed with it. I guess there are two perspectives to have.

1. I don't care about the watermarking, I plan to keep these CDs in my collection and have them buried with me when I die.
2. I don't want watermarking, because I wanted to put them on my computer/put it on CD-R for a friend/put it on Ebay and I don't want to sign a release form saying Razormaid can prosecute me, because I want to rip off someone.

It is all perspective. I happen to be in category 1. Many other are apparently too if over 75 people have ordered the discs from Razormaid.....

I'm just saying that I'm happy with what I got and didn't care with the upfront means they went through to protect themselves.

Hi i recieve this email form Razormaid (joseph Watt). I am a lot deceived. Someone is able to he help me? The shipping price now is very expensive for me: 16.85 USdollars before :5,00 US dolars.

I always buying a lot of cds of the USA and not have problem. I pay 5 - 7 us dollars for 2 or 3 cds.

De: Joseph watt Bloquear endereço Para: Mokrabe , Elázaro Data: 28/02/2003 15:19 Assunto: Registered mail fee

We have just returned from the bank with your package. We did not ship it because we need to have you resubmit your request for this, if you still want it, with the correct shipping charges applied.

In your country, they will not allow us to ship it with Global Priority, due to the high crime and theft in your country. Therefore, the package must be sent "Registered mail" = "Signature Required" + Proof of Delivery" + "Insured parcel".

This shipping fee comes to $16.85

If you still want this order, please submit it again and change the shipping rate to $16.85 and we can then charge your account and ship it out to you. Because of the "watermarking" on the disc, we can not allow the disc to fall into the hands of anyone, other than you, or you will be charged for any crime resulting from it's misuse, as you were assigned the ID# for the one disc.

This is why it must be sent in such a way that it is placed into your hands, guaranteed.

We will wait for the new Online order form from you with this change in the $$ amount and the new shipping charges added to that.

Thanks,

Joseph

Has anyone really been jailed for copying one of these Razormaid tracks? At the end of the day, a big record company like Warner, Sony, etc. rarely secure these things through the courts, so how can they?

Andy

I got my disc yesterday and it's actually kind of okay. No big deal though. But okay. The sound is way better than the ones i have been downloading on Kazaa. I am quite happy to have them.
Oh and I paid only 5 bucks for the shipping to France. Just so u know. No "signature required" for me.
The thing is... I was expecting something that would look more professionnal, you know? Not a coloured CD-R w/a sticker on it... I was kind of disappointed. BUT... Can someone explain me what a water mark is??? :)

Originally posted by Spotnick You'd have to compare with JC Pacaud to see if it's the exact same thing (or check the discography)..I'm expecting this:[/ That's what i got but there is a sticker on the CD... Deception.

I am quite ashamed of yourself. Afdter listening quite a few times to In Hindsight II, I actually do like this PK Razormaid Mix...

I contacted them regarding secure ordering. This is what they suggested...

You can go to this link and print out our Membership Form. This will supply us with the information requested, regarding payment info, etc. This is how we register our members so they can place order with us, without giving personal information online, ever. Here is that link:

http://www.razormaid.com/html/forms/uup/uupchoice.htm

When you mail in the Membership Form, please include a message that you are not a Razormaid member, but using the form to register for the New Order Special. That way we will not place you in our Data Base, by mistake. The reason I am telling you this is because the prices to our members for the same product is this:

In Hindsight II - $35.00 In Hindsight (Part 1) - $25.00 Reflections - $40.00 Refractions (part 1) - $25.00 Refractions (part 2) - $25.00

Quite a bit different, huh? So make sure you add that message when you submit the form to us. There are instructions on how to calculate the Membership ID#, which you will need to go ahead and do, for the form to be validated - that prints with the Membership Form.

In addition, there is a "release form" which is mandatory as well. If you tell me what you are purchasing, I can assign "watermark" ID#'s for those and send that so that both forms can be sent together, at the same time.

I got my cd's today. Its ok. I like the mixes on the first cd better, the second kinda sounds like a cut and paste job.

Since Razormaid is not a law enforcement organization, to have someone arrested, they would need to alert law enforcement agencies to the presence of copyrighted material online. It is up to the FBI (or INTERPOL or whatever) to conduct the investigation. Razormaid would have to submit mountains of computer data, and proof that their "watermarking" system is secure and reliable. Hate to think that they accidentally recorded several versions of someone else's sig, or that it was possible for some offender to remove the watermark on his CD and replace it with another's at random.

See, for a prosecution and an "arrest" to move forward, the prosecution would need to prove that the end user was the party responsible for the content's distribution. As others have mentioned, being burgled, is a potential no person can guard against. Just because Razormaid has you sign a contract doesn't mean that you can be JAILED at the first appearance of impropriety. Has anyone even considered that this contract can be ruled invalid on the grounds of "first sale"? You certainly are within your rights in the US to re-sell, lend, or THROW AWAY property you have legally purchased (although shrink-wrap licenses give the false impression this is not legal). Imagine if Microsoft imprisoned anyone who re-sold a legitimate copy of Windows... hell, this case argues that Microsoft JAIL any company found to have "let" their corporate serial number leak onto the internet.

Scare tactics at best or delusions of aegis at worst.

Basically if everyone who has bought these Razormaid mixes decided to copy them, encode them to MP3 or whatever, they wouldn't be able to do very much about it - almost makes it worth doing just to stick two fingers up at their attitude ! I have never come across such paranoia in the music business - makes you wonder as though they have something to hide !

I quite like both I & II

well i don't know what its like over there in the US, but here in the UK you cannot be arrested or prosecuted for breach of contract. It is a civil, not criminal act.

you can of course be sued.

and of you would have thought that the people who can come up with such a time consuming and startling watermarking technology could at least install a security certificate on their site... or perhaps the lack of orders is stopping them from spending the $49 on that? or do you think they are having trouble cutting and pasting it?

http://www.instantssl.com/products/index.html?area=ssl&ap=InstantSSL

http://www.rackshack.net/english/quickssldetails.asp

any questions? :-)

Just like to add my bit. I was al prepared to pay for these mixes, got in touch, filled the online form in, sent the form of etc. When I got an e-mail saying 'your credit card is requiring a full name, when we applied for authorisation'. Never had this before (have you?) so I queried it. Next e-mail, 'It's for our records'. So which is it, I ask, for the bank or for you? I'm getting a bit suspicious to be honest, expecially as my name's on every e-mail I've sent them anyway: when I get this:

"I'll save you the trouble of contacting your bank and refund you now. Your credit will appear in 2-4 days, depending on how slow your bank is to process it for you.

Joseph politely asked for your full name twice. That's one more time than I would have done. He also processed your request and made the discs, without even being able to

Our bank requires it, to ensure our expidited, guarateed payment. We require it because our data base will not accept an entry of a single charactor letter (it requires a minimum of 3). We should not have to explain this to anyone.

For your information, a contract is not legal and binding without a complete name, for obvious reasons. Anyone could say, "Well M.R. Hasslepoof, that could be anyone". And it could.

Contact your bank, they will set you straight on such legalities. You can not sue anyone in court without a full name. When is the last time you heard "all rise. This is a matter of the state vs. M.R. Hasslepoof"? You wouldn't. They can't.

If you feel your name is too hideous to put on your card and our membership form, then you should change it!

We have literally hundreds of subscribers in the UK. You are the first to hassle us in this manner. Good to know this early on before we actually mailed you our precious product.

I will process your refund within the hour.

Thanks??

Yale Patton Razormaid Productions Owner

They're not exactly doing themselves any favours are they? Anyway, it all adds to the myth I suppose; Paranoid and extremely rude; but they do make me laugh!

Surely it's all part of a spoof documentary in the making?

Hell, my own remixes are so very frigging hot that I require notarized proof of fire insurance before I'll even allow you to read their titles...and then you'll have to submit two vials of blood: one to file and one to press into the vinyl for type and DNA matching for the inevitable lawsuit.

You can't be too careful when you've sold your soul to Satan in exchange for these mad remixing skillz; that trident is hot against your tender ass-flesh when Beelzebub is poking you for his royalty check.

MWAHAHA!!! MIX, MINION!

That said, how could one refund your credit card unless one had already charged said credit card? Confusion.

Originally posted by Gnu Odor Hell, my own remixes are so very frigging hot that I require notarized proof of fire insurance before I'll even allow you to read their titles...and then you'll have to submit two vials of blood: one to file and one to press into the vinyl for type and DNA matching for the inevitable lawsuit.You can't be too careful when you've sold your soul to Satan in exchange for these mad remixing skillz; that trident is hot against your tender ass-flesh when Beelzebub is poking you for his royalty check.MWAHAHA!!! MIX, MINION!That said, how could one refund your credit card unless one had already charged said credit card? Confusion.

Razormaid should require a stool sample since their remixes are so shitty.

Shit poeple, shit company, shit records

YALE is a fuckin' wanker.suck on this

They really are the most unbelievable bunch of twats. How are they still in business? Anyway, if you want any of their shit, just get it off P2P - it's all there, watermark or not.

Originally posted by Hink Wavesass© Surely it's all part of a spoof documentary in the making?

Good then i will play MR MICHAEL ROCKET MICK...the rather fetching GAYLORDE lookalike with a hint of UNCLE FESTER and HARRY HILL. You can play HANK HESKEY!

Originally posted by Gnu Odor Hell, my own remixes are so very frigging hot that I require notarized proof of fire insurance before I'll even allow you to read their titles...and then you'll have to submit two vials of blood: one to file and one to press into the vinyl for type and DNA matching for the inevitable lawsuit.You can't be too careful when you've sold your soul to Satan in exchange for these mad remixing skillz; that trident is hot against your tender ass-flesh when Beelzebub is poking you for his royalty check.MWAHAHA!!! MIX, MINION!That said, how could one refund your credit card unless one had already charged said credit card? Confusion.

Yep, I'm confused too, amd none the wiser about why they wanted my full name, as they had already been credited with the money. Ho hum.

Another amusing chapter in the Razormaid Fiasco.

These guys are either completely bonkers or winding us up:

" Well, once again you didn't address any of my questions of course. I knew that you would not, because you still can't read, I gather.
Instead, you went off on some tangent, avoiding the subject completely... yet again.

Do you ever get it? Or is this how you "pass the buck". I am not easily thrown off by smoke screens - especially when people quote things they were not involved in, nor know why it happened. For your information, we cut off Florida subscribers to make them put pressure on the other Flordia customers who had stuck us with over $3,000 in bad checks - but then you left that part out. Again, you only get half of everything right including unecessary quote that have nothing to do with the fact that you STILL never gave us your name.

You have a wild imagination if you think you EVER signed your name to anything that was sent here, except this last E-mail. I didn't know your name until we received your release form in the mail, esterday afternoon. I told you that in this last E-mail, but you didn't respond to that comment either. Instead you imagined you signed your name to everything and we somehow couldn't find it? Nice selective reading skills you have guy.

Why do you think we kept asking for your name? Are you dense? You never gave it to us. That's why I had to write to you 3 times asking for it, which in itself is ridiculous. Shall I forward all the E-mails you have sent, so you can see for yourself before you tell this tale to others?? Or will you disregard them like you did my last E-mail, asking questions you chose to ignore because you had no answer that would make you look good. If I had a name for you, we would not have had to write to you in the first place. END OF STORY. What part of that aren't you getting?

The only bizarre thing going on here is you.

Like I said, we had over 120+ individuals from the Neworderonline.com connection, from all around the Planet, that purchased to our offer - all singing our praises once they received it. Not one negative letter in the bunch. And they all same the same thing, "Excellent customer service - excellent turnaround time". Each person who purchased wrote me personally, which caught me off guard, as our members take our service for granted. This is why it made a poignant, lasting impression.

Our contacts with you keep getting more bizarre each time you write.

I know we made the correct decision in refunding you. Trouble like this (the situation you have placed us in) is not limited to a "one time" experience, just with Razormaid - although you are trying desperately to try your best to make it look so. It follows the customer (you) where ever they go. If nothing else, I have learned this in the 20 years of doing business.

If you had responded to what we were asking for, so my employee could enter you in the data base (which requires a first name which you wouldn't give us in all our writings begging you) none of this would have happened. You caused it - not us.

That's the only thing bizarre happening around here.

Thank God you were the ONLY person to give us this much drama. It makes me appreciate how well behaved the others were and how messy it could have been, if all 120+ behaved as badly as you.

Despite our best efforts to get you your product, things have a way of working out the way they were meant to be. I don't have your money and you don't have my product. I am thankful for that at least."

For everybody's info. every single e-mail I sent them had 'Martin' or 'Martin Fenner' - which is why I'm begining to think it's a wind up.

It sounds like they're a bit desperate for money.