Ceremony/IALP named by New Order ?

Interesting that the Birmingham setlist (http://members.aol.com/lwtua/c1980.htm#133) shows 'New One' as the first song implying that they had not actually named it by that point. Does this mean that Ceremony & IALP were named by New Order ? Also, I've often wondered if any other parts of the original NO setlist were, at least in part, created in the last days of JD e.g. I could easily believe that Dreams Never End, Truth, Mesh, Homage could have been. It seems unlikely that these songs were completely created from scratch between 18 May and July when they appeared at the Beach Club. Any thoughts ?

This is my kind of thread !! I've often suspected that Ceremony and IALP were named by NO rather than JD. I've also long suspected that half the new set was also stuff that was in the JD pipeline (particularly Truth) but had never been given any lyrics by Ian. It'd be great to know. Perhaps when one of the band next visit, they'd like to tell us on the sleeve notes of the next album ?

Looks like a good argument for the people who sit in the 'Primarily NO' camp debate about Ceremony.

This makes sense as well since there are many examples of songs which were works in progress for up to a year or so before the final versions and song titles were released.

and songs such as Video 5 8 6 / older versions of 5 8 6 reminiscent of the Peel version are examples of the direction in which i think Joy Division was headed. and i could always picture Ian singing Dreams Never End, too.

i was under the impression that Ceremony and In A Lonely Place were named by Ian, though, due to Debbie Curtis' biography.

on a sidenote: wasn't the original title of IALP "Little Boy"? i think i read that somewhere on the site.

great thread!

Originally posted by film 5 8 6 and songs such as Video 5 8 6 / older versions of 5 8 6 reminiscent of the Peel version are examples of the direction in which i think Joy Division was headed. and i could always picture Ian singing Dreams Never End, too.i was under the impression that Ceremony and In A Lonely Place were named by Ian, though, due to Debbie Curtis' biography.on a sidenote: wasn't the original title of IALP "Little Boy"? i think i read that somewhere on the site.great thread!

I agree with all you :)

Originally posted by Bill Poster Interesting that the Birmingham setlist (http://members.aol.com/lwtua/c1980.htm#133) shows 'New One' as the first song implying that they had not actually named it by that point. Does this mean that Ceremony & IALP were named by New Order ? Also, I've often wondered if any other parts of the original NO setlist were, at least in part, created in the last days of JD e.g. I could easily believe that Dreams Never End, Truth, Mesh, Homage could have been. It seems unlikely that these songs were completely created from scratch between 18 May and July when they appeared at the Beach Club. Any thoughts ?

Perhaps you're not aware of the fact that JD + NO (until well into the eighties) had the habit of constantly introducing new compositions to their setlists as soon as they had agreed upon a decent basic structure (and sometimes even before that point). Presumably, in a lot of those cases, a title had not yet been decided upon - hence references like 'New One' or 'New Guitar One' or 'Kraftwerk One'. Alternatively, several songs changed titles more than once. A good indication of the band's attitude towards song titles is that they continued to call 'In A Lonely Place' 'Little Boy' long after the song was officially released.

Lastly, I too am inclined to think that there were several songs more in the pipeline by the time of Ian's death. Considering the furious rate at which the band could churn out new tunes (for instance, in the spring & summer of '79), and seeing that they had at least 5 songs by July, this is the most likely assumption.

Originally posted by film 5 8 6 and songs such as Video 5 8 6 / older versions of 5 8 6 reminiscent of the Peel version are examples of the direction in which i think Joy Division was headed. and i could always picture Ian singing Dreams Never End, too.i was under the impression that Ceremony and In A Lonely Place were named by Ian, though, due to Debbie Curtis' biography.on a sidenote: wasn't the original title of IALP "Little Boy"? i think i read that somewhere on the site.great thread!

Video 586 IS the early live versions of Ultraviolence, at least the first 5 mins of it anyway, but with guitar and bass added !

Ceremony could well have had no title as of the date of the concert and still been named by JD prior to Ian's death. IALP was recorded as a JD demo, so it would seem to be an empirical piece of information somewhere as to whether the song on the cassette copy that was used for the box set had that title at that time.

Barney said on 2002 Tour in Australia,Sydney New South Wales 23/01/02:

"this a very old song by us.it´s kind half by us and half by joy division,it´s called Ceremony"

I've always thought given the prolific rate that Joy Division wrote songs ahead of releases that Bernard, Peter and Stephen probably had a significant part of the instrumental side of Movement-era NO songs sketched out waiting for lyrics and Ian's input. They certainly got the early New Order set-list written very quickly.

A lot of the songs had working titles which later changed at the last minute. I seem to remember reading - I think it's in Brian Edge's book Unknown Pleasures & Wayward Distractions - that they used to pick most titles from flicking through a Film Encyclopaedia. That explains why most songs have abstract titles. I think they gave this up finally with "Vanishing Point" on Technique.

Coincidentally I watched the old Humphrey Go-kart film "In A Lonely Place" last week for the first time. It's quite unusual for an old film. Humphrey plays a very complex, anti-hero bloke. Very noir, very JD.

Originally posted by HaciendaThat A lot of the songs had working titles which later changed at the last minute. I seem to remember reading - I think it's in Brian Edge's book Unknown Pleasures & Wayward Distractions - that they used to pick most titles from flicking through a Film Encyclopaedia. That explains why most songs have abstract titles. I think they gave this up finally with "Vanishing Point" on Technique.

Wasn't it a poster they had hung up in their rehearsal room, with lots of film titles which they used to pick at random when they had another song ready?

Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart Barney said on 2002 Tour in Australia,Sydney New South Wales 23/01/02:"this a very old song by us.it´s kind half by us and half by joy division,it´s called Ceremony"

no disrespect, but since when has barney ever told the truth announcing songs on tour?

Originally posted by film 5 8 6 and songs such as Video 5 8 6 / older versions of 5 8 6 reminiscent of the Peel version are examples of the direction in which i think Joy Division was headed. and i could always picture Ian singing Dreams Never End, too.i was under the impression that Ceremony and In A Lonely Place were named by Ian, though, due to Debbie Curtis' biography.on a sidenote: wasn't the original title of IALP "Little Boy"? i think i read that somewhere on the site.great thread!

the songs are known as that now so it makes sense she puts their current titles, as you said ialp was little boy & it wasnt titled that in the book...

it would be daft for the band to drop any uncompleted songs they had part written just because ian died, makes complete sense that they started with those songs

[Content deleted by Sean Kant kino on 5/20/2003 6:03:56 PM EDT]

I remember reading an interview with Barney talking about that film poster with all the film titles on it, apparently picked up in Germany. They got 'The Eternal' from a film called 'The Eternal Flame'. I think Ceremony was a JD title, but im not sure about IALP.

New Order seemed to adopted the habit anyway, with 'Cries & Whispers' and all.

P.S: Also take into account that Barney does tend to talk shite in interviews.

Looking at Still LP there say Side 3 music one Cerimony.

Can it named after the release?

Originally posted by morcego Looking at Still LP there say Side 3 music one Cerimony.Can it named after the release?

New Order single Ceremony/In a lonely place 7" was released before Joy Division - Still.