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Nominations for best sleeve, anyone?
My votes(s) go(es) to:
Honourable mentions:
M.
Given my displeasure at people kickin' cardboard boxes around while the order play there synths on The Perfect Kiss.I'll redress the balance slightly by bigging up the sleave, a gorgeouse minimalist statement with embossed letters, in just the right shade to paint your Audi.
true faith & true faith remix definitely my faves. classy. true faith remix echoed in the substance video whilst the happy one plays over the top of it in between tracks
Originally posted by Muffy True Faith, both of them, but especially the multi-coloured remix. Both really beautiful!
I personnally prefer the single green leaf...
Regret deserves a mention here if only so I can add, a friend of mine has the original record, I think it's a country and western album that has the horseman on the cover.
The inside sleeves for Perfect Kiss - that cobalt blue, and wasn't there a scarlet one too? Beautiful colours.
oh no... this thread is what I feared, an opportunity to wax lyrical about the idiosyncrasies of Saville's artwork and how it has affected the public perception of design throughout the public 'pop' medium. The complex balance of music and classic artwork in a consistently unique fashion when designers all around were falling from grace at the sight of each new release. I have given talks on Peter Saville, that's how much I'm genuinely 'into him'. If I ever met him (like me bird has) I would buy him a cup of horlicks and offer him a bubbly... like me bird didn't.
I'm sorry, I'll have to keep out of this one for fear that I might bore the living daylights out of you all... and myself. 
Originally posted by Allen Jarvis The inside sleeves for Perfect Kiss - that cobalt blue, and wasn't there a scarlet one too? Beautiful colours.
Mine's red or scarlet if you like.Huntsman can you tell us your favourite favourite in 10 words or less?
For some reason the cover photo on the US GR has a brownish or sepia tint in contrast to the grey of the UK cover.
Originally posted by Geoff The Klump > Originally posted by Muffy> True Faith, both of them, but especially the multi-coloured remix. Both really beautiful!
I personnally prefer the single green leaf...
surely it's yellow?
CONFUSION - Surely the best sleeve of all time and it took me years to figure out what it said on the front!!!
Mine's red or scarlet if you like.Huntsman can you tell us your favourite favourite in 10 words or less?
... How?
Originally posted by Huntsman
Mine's red or scarlet if you like.Huntsman can you tell us your favourite favourite in 10 words or less?
... How?
O.K. You have my permissiom to wax lyrical.I'm genuinely interested...honestly I'm a bit of an artist myself(no obvious jokes please)
an artist eh... mmm, i think that's good. it surely means you are open minded? -
well, instead of the hunts banging on, is there anything that's been bugging you over the years?... i may have an answer or little tit-bit.
did you know that when factory closed, he set-off to LA and joined an american (californian) design company. sav and brett wickens (his long-standing typographer) were asked to join as a combined unit working within this company... there idea was to call themselves 'Headlines and Deadlines' which i think is a belter of a name.
anyway, after a short while, the americans politely asked them to bog off as no-one could understand how they worked, why they worked like they did and just who the hell actually did any work out of the 2 anyway.
nice one sav.
in order for sav to use the 'classic' painting shown on pcl tony wilsoid called the museum and said look, people want to see this painting, and your holding it from us. they said, oh yeah, you've got a point. sav scanned it and his work was done.
nice one sav.
Patrick the red band isn't mean to be red, it's meant to be washed out, earthy, gritty like the seepier toned photograph. Recollect the rant I gave a few months ago when I tried to explain away the 'ordinary'ness' of the artwork and that was the intention. The artwork is well-worked with soil and grain.
If the Sav wanted a genuine 'blood red', believe me, it would have been reproduced and jumped off the page twatting all and sundry on the nose.
No, no: come on Huntsy, if you know your stuff, you've got to make like the aformentioned museum and share your cultural capital with the plebian masses. Tha fact that Saville is obviously a clever-clever lazy bastard has already won me over, but what do we make of him and his work. Do we "read" this stuff, or is it just very pretty, pseudo-intellectual aesthetic guff designed to sucker people (like myself, and most of the rest of us, I suspect) who fell for the Order when we were much too young to know better? Or All Of The Above? Or none?
And how did your talks go? I teach film studies, and once used the "BLT" video to demonstrate the "power" (oh yes!) of montage and free-association imagery to a bunch of undergraduates. They weren't impressed. I kind of went "You do KNOW who this is, don't you?". They didn't. "It's New Order". THIS MEAN'T NOTHING TO THEM.
I went home, and cried.
The next day, I started arranging a pension.
M.
Originally posted by martin fradley And how did your talks go? I teach film studies,
Did you ? Funny as I did it for 3 years, a few years back.
The fundamental aspect of Peter Saville and his works for New Order are this:
a) he creates stunning, beautiful and 'original' imagery b) you can recognise the work without seeing 'a label'
How does he do this and is this true?
That was a talk I gave and it went down a storm. The hook is luring the audience into thinking I'm never going to prove the basic premise (b)... I always do. There are numerous excellent images around, this isn't enough, its the subliminal way in which Saville attracts a certain 'pre-disposed' individual that is the core of his genius. He is a genius that is a well recognise fact (attained through painstaking research I might add).
I'd love to get into all of this properly but I'm restricted to short busts whilst e-mailing proofs to clients. Many apologies.
A small essence of the 'meat' behind the talks: A person can walk into a shop oblivious to the artwork, he or she could pick it up but never appreciate the purpose or intention. A New Order person can identify 'their personality and what they want to be' at 10 yards. Just how is this achieved? - it is something not easy to explain. Does the person that leaves the work feel alienated by this, can he or she not understand?... are New Order fans simply deeper as individuals?... I think yes.
Lots of war-imagery intentionally mixed-up in all of his work, subliminal codings and on and on. The guy might not be an enigma, but his legacy certainly is.
Bizarre Love Triangle is a great song but it only got to number 56 (i think) in the charts. Could this be partly due to the fact that the sleeve is almost identical to state of the nation? Hmmmm......
Huntsy, I certainly don't want to disappoint and offend you twice in one day. I thought that your earlier discussion of ordinary-ness was directed mainly at the interior photos showing an "ugly" construction site along a river or canal. Somewhat unexpected compared to the cover photo.
Interestingly I'm not sure how much of this the band actually acknowledge. Very little would be my guess. I'm confident they would have had more input if the work wasn't the work of genius... as their music surely is. Once they realised that their sleeves were magic, they have always been happy - despite the odd groan.
One thing to bear in mind (which is always a difficult thing to do) - EVERY sleeve has a different printing method. Blue Monday (complex die-cut), The Perfect Kiss (blind embossing), Republic (story told through montage across many folds - i.e. the Factory demise), Confusion (code and high gloss outer not accessible through nornal printing techniques). He is percieved to be a lazy arse... not so, this attention to detail is a takes forever, and a very intelligent mind.
Originally posted by Patrick Huntsy, I certainly don't want to disappoint and offend you twice in one day. I thought that your earlier discussion of ordinary-ness was directed mainly at the interior photos showing an "ugly" construction site along a river or canal. Somewhat unexpected compared to the cover photo.
Okay P an over simplification:
8 years has seen even the most hardcore fans unbalanced. New Order just aren't the same (primarily after the Republic gloss) and I want them to get back to their roots.
8 years on that's exactly what they have done. More guitars, less synths, more 'keeping it real'. Saville needed to echo this. How more ordinary can you get than a (purposefully) crappy deserted construction site with some lass wandering around 'THE STREETS'.
What you would never have got (thank god) is a glossy photo of a model (aka Round and Round video). The GR artwork is meant to be shit, but clever. It is both.
The red washed out band is a fucking work of genius. Do you want to know how many times this little gem has already been copied? (about 5 I've seen so far) - this red bar is a direct derivitive of a piece of Russian communist artwork called (something along these lines) 'Drive a Red Wedge Between Forces'. This piece of art shows an odd triangle at odds with a series of shapes. Now then... what does that tell us?
Huntsy, I thought what you were saying was very persuasive about the construction site photos, perhaps less so about the cover photo. This is not my area at all, but I do think the overall cover (photo with red band) is very appealing. How do the semi-erotic photos for the singles fit in, in your view?
The cover is strange. Is she looking at us or are we looking at her? - is she filming our response to New Order after their long break? - perhaps.
The singles and DVD releases show a similar quality (well, exactly the same) grain. Possibly Saville opted for a relation to the album with this. You can buy Crystal, but it has a reference to the album in case you hadn't bought or seen this.
Can you work it out Pat?
Incidentally, the 'pseudo-erotic' suggestive imagery is all part of re-packaging New Order as a 'trendy' youthful band... as we all remember them (even if that's not what they now are). Think about the video... no excessive weight on them kids eh!? - same as the cover artwork.
You see, it is all linked with much thought.
Well, H, I think there is some potential for confusion, especially when you bring in the video. If you go to the message board at neworderweb.com, there seems to be considerable interest in finding out who are those people in the video. Surely that was not the intended reaction, not that I know what that was. Questions about who are those people in the video are surely a distraction from NO. The "ugliness" of the construction site, the semi- or pseudo- erotic appeal of photos of a young woman taking off her jeans, I'm not sure how these fit together.
How common is the phenomenom of going into a record shop on the day of release, picking up the NO product with only a cursary glance to check it's not Electribe 101(which could be serendipitous as we artists are always saying)and being spot on each time?
can't believe any of u hot bloodied males haven't mentioned the GR sleeve. coco looks so hot in that scraggy t-shirt and tatty jeans and thanks to huntsman i can now stare at her everytime i switch on my mac also like the ruined in a day sleeve - guess i'm just a frustrated beach bum
Originally posted by Ian Shimmin How common is the phenomenom of going into a record shop on the day of release, picking up the NO product with only a cursary glance to check it's not Electribe 101(which could be serendipitous as we artists are always saying)and being spot on each time?
I've done this loads of times, especially in the period 85-89, when the records weren't advertised very well. I remember buying Brotherhood on the first day of its release. Saw the album cover straight away as I walked into the shop and had a bet with my mate that 'the blue metallic thingy' was the new release. Needless to say I won the bet. I've also done this with PCL, BLT, True Faith, Perfect Kiss and Technique. The only one that stumped me was the 12" of Subculture.
My favourite cover is the 12" of Murder/Thieves Like Us Instrumental
Interesting favourites:
Brotherhood album (vinyl) Temptation (7' single) Fine Time (12") Thieves Like Us (12")
In fact they're all bloody unique.
My favourites have to be True Faith and Fine time, TF is just beautiful understated design, Fine Time, is an amazing image, Saville is a genius at sourcing simple, though evoking imagery!
The Get Ready sleeve is typical of this, and I really like it, although it's probably not as instantly clever as other sleeves in the past. But it raises the same thoughts, what is the girl on there for? - and what is she doing?
It appears that the idea for the GR sleeve is quite simple, (I'm sorry if this has been posted earlier!) Apparently Saville saw an art installation by Martin Kippenberger featuring a red line over a Perspex box which reminded Saville of a CD jewel case,. Barney initially wanted a very colourful image, but when showed the pic of the girl, he was really taken with it, in particular the idea of her looking out into the world, so it was reshot by Juergen Teller.
The above info was taken from design magazine Creative Review, GR has had quite a lot of publicity in the design press, mainly beacuse of Savilles hero status, but still interesting how Saville got to the idea of the red bar, like many other talented designers he's very good at keeping his eyes open and looking for inspiration.
Sorry if I've gone on abit here, as a designer I've long loved all of Savilles work (who hasn't?)
I think all of this related work from GR will really come together as more singles are released, it's typical of todays' "branding" the coloured bar being carried across sleeve artwork, web-sites, etc, and i love my NO t-shirt with the red bar across the front, very constructivist!!
Originally posted by Ian Shimmin How common is the phenomenom of going into a record shop on the day of release
Seem to rememebr in the 80's you'd nip down to your local Our Price in anticipation of picking up the new New Order product, only to be told "It might be in tomorrow", such was Factory's distribution at the time.
Closer Unknown Pleasures True Faith Love Will Tear Us Apart (7 and 12 inch) Brotherhood Transmisson Movement Substance (JD) PCL Blue Monday (Original) Procession
funny enough i 'noticed' the movement sleave the other day i thought wow thats completely timeless. in a way its similar to get ready but considering its 20 years old i think it looks great
Movement's always been one of my favorites cover-wise, it just looks almost Joy Division-esque (as the music contained within it is also JD-esque), It's definitely cool to look at
I love Brotherhood's sleeve for its improbibility (does anyone have even a clue what that's supposed to be? Doubt it. Is it great art? Yep)
T7 the Brotherhood cover is a sheet of metal. Plain and simple, Saville went to a scrapyard, picked it up and thought... fuck it, I'll just scan this and do absolutely nothing else to it.
A rare vinyl release of the Brotherhood album sees him printing it in metallic ink to emphasize this point (I have said artwork).
To make matters slightly more intriguing, on the same outing he picked up the cover artwork for State of the Nation and BLT!!! - so, he got 3 for the price of 1!!! - yes folks... that's 3 pieces of metal making 2 years of cover artwork.
The lettering on Brotherhood was not superimposed... it is the description of the metal itself!!! - everything you see on the artwork is a photograph of the metal... no additions.
If you can cope with yet another Huntsman snippit the fabulously crazy 'Shellcocker' artwork sees a name at the top of the sleeve.
The word 'Alex!' can be seen.
But what does this mean Huntsman you little egg whisk settler?... well then, it is the name of the artist who painted the picture! - yes, 'Alex' - a New York painter.. splashed some shit all over the place and the Sav-meister thought, fuck it... I'll scan that and do absolutley sod all to it and that can be another New Order hit record sleeve.
Nice one.
I about died laughing when I read that, to think a major group like New Order would put out basically a metal sheet as a cover for an album......that's why you gotta love NO, who else would have the balls or creativity to do that? (and please, no "well, Kiss would've thought of that" responses. No they wouldn't have....)
I've always been very fond of the Brotherhood cover, although I've only seen it on the cassette and CD versions.
T7 you might also laugh at the story of the True Faith sleeve which sees possibly Saville's trade mark don't do no work skills maximised to full potential.
Saville gets asked to do the cover for True Faith... this is what happens...
he decides he can't be bothered to listen to the song at any point in the design process
He sits in his car doing nothing and a leaf falls onto his windscreen
He gets out of his car (most strenuous point of the project for him) and picks the leaf off his windscreen and drives it to his studio
He hands the leaf to Trevor Key to photograph and gives the text to Brett Wickens
Cover done
Nice one.
That's real funny......lol.
My goodness, to think that such great art can come from such a lackluster source (leaf on a windshield), that's just plain funny.....
These titbits are fascinating, Hunsty: you wanna write a fanzine, or set up a web-site or summat. Can we take it from this that Saville is, like N.O., primarily instinctive, a true Romantic led by heart rather than head, and also a lazy chancer who's been getting away with it from day one?
If so, I love him all the more for it.
M.
Forgive me for coming across this thread so late in the day, but I've just panned thru all 40-odd replies and.... .......I'm frankly shocked at your collective amnesia.....I see a few of you have brought up "The Perfect Kiss"'s genius minimalist piece , and even acknowledged "Sub-Culture" in passing, but NONE of you have even mentioned the album sleeve to "Low-Life": the tracing paper overlay of typography and, for the first AND ONLY TIME EVER, photos of the New Order members themselves!! The first edition Factory Cassette original (in a classy book-binded white box) had the four photos as postcards, and an inner tracer sheet with the track details. The CD is similarly attired. Have none of you realised the amount of work that has gone in to this wonderful, tasteful exercise in actually promoting THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE MUSIC?
The "Low-Life" sleeve is probably the most complex Saville creation after PC&L, I can't believe you've all forgotten about its very existence..... shame on you all!!!
Low-life was an incredible sleeve. Wonder if this was another case of over extravagance ala Blue Monday as it must of cost more to produce than the standard album sleeve.
....& Closer.
Saw an article in the music press recently, well in the last 12 months, which listed the top 100 album sleeves of the 20th century. They placed Closer at no 2!!.I think, if memory serves, Nirvana's Nevermind was top.
Can't recall if any NO sleeves featured. Anyone else remember this?
Republic...
The only one that I really dont like it Fine Time... it gives me a headache...reminds me of drunken nights out and the after effects in the morning... eww
Liv
If we're talking about overdoing it on the sleeve front, we can't not mention 2 other Factory releases - The Durutti Column's 'Return Of...' with sandpaper exterior to deliberately everything else in the rack, and Section 25's 'Always Now' which opened like an extravagant envelope on which you had to actually break a red seal.
Aaah, great anal days.
Originally posted by Huntsman T7 the Brotherhood cover is a sheet of metal. Plain and simple, Saville went to a scrapyard, picked it up and thought... fuck it, I'll just scan this and do absolutely nothing else to it.A rare vinyl release of the Brotherhood album sees him printing it in metallic ink to emphasize this point (I have said artwork).I always thought it was a block of titanium - can you confirm it was a sheet rather than a nugget?To make matters slightly more intriguing, on the same outing he picked up the cover artwork for State of the Nation and BLT!!! - so, he got 3 for the price of 1!!! - yes folks... that's 3 pieces of metal making 2 years of cover artwork.The lettering on Brotherhood was not superimposed... it is the description of the metal itself!!! - everything you see on the artwork is a photograph of the metal... no additions.
Originally posted by Huntsman T7 the Brotherhood cover is a sheet of metal. Plain and simple, Saville went to a scrapyard, picked it up and thought... fuck it, I'll just scan this and do absolutely nothing else to it.A rare vinyl release of the Brotherhood album sees him printing it in metallic ink to emphasize this point (I have said artwork).I always thought it was a block of titanium - can you confirm it was a sheet rather than a nugget?To make matters slightly more intriguing, on the same outing he picked up the cover artwork for State of the Nation and BLT!!! - so, he got 3 for the price of 1!!! - yes folks... that's 3 pieces of metal making 2 years of cover artwork.The lettering on Brotherhood was not superimposed... it is the description of the metal itself!!! - everything you see on the artwork is a photograph of the metal... no additions.
I always thought it was a block of titanium - can you confirm it was a sheet rather than a nugget?
