r2 docco

poor research. egg is not on movement. and to moby, neither is ceremony.

whats the obsession with miranda sawyer? Makes 'Polly Filla' from private eye seem pretty damn good.

i wish morely would shut up. did anybody try and read that self indulgant thing he wrote? shut the feck up.

suddenly i hear a hip hop rip off of a kraftwerk track.

gad this is boring.

I agree with you about the poor research - no excuse - and Miranda saying a lot but not really saying much worth hearing.

At least R2 thought they were worthy of such a documentary.

Haven't learnt anything new though! Was entertained by the sound of Hooky's dog shaking its collar!

Yeah I agree - the documentary was a big dissapointment. A lot of the interviews appear to be from the BBC archives - I've heard most of these before somewhere. I have a tape recording of a previous BBC 2 part special on JD/NO transmitted in the late 1980's - a lot of the interviews are taken straight from this recording. To sum up : rather boring with little or no new information.

It was good to hear the voices of Gillian, Rob, Peter, Martin and Arthur for the first time (for me anyway)... it's up to others to write a review of this show. I've been awake for 72+ hours, time to go to bed, nighty night.

Worryingly, I share an opinion with Neil Tennant (i.e. that Confusion is a pretty poor song). And I obviously haven't been listening to Retro disc 5 enough, as when I heard the opening bass on Transmission at the very start, I thought it was taken from one of Hooky's mythical "private tapes" of JD gigs.

In all, nothing earth-shattering, but good to hear some new insights from Wilson, and Morley seemed to be behaving himself.

It was alright.. For me, it was a bit weird listening to a radio documentary: "The first voice you'll hear, that of the rarely heard Steve Morrsibird, will be before that of the less rare but equally Beautiful Barneybird, which is before that of, eh, the very common Hookybird." . "And my name's Mark Radcliffe", and why am I doing this? Well I happen to know that he's a Mancunian, and part of the 'Manchester Scene'. Maybe you do too, but it might have been useful to contextualise himself. "I've got a great idea", says the young chap with a trendy haircut who's been ignoring everything whilst working on his laptop. " Let's put in a middle bit where people who obviously haven't got the slightest ideas about New Order ask a question about them. " OK David Sultan from Miami, ""Eh, yes Barney, ehm how much would you sell the undies you were wearing when you sang...." . "The next voice is Archive material" (he's dead but we're saving that fact for next week)" Well I did enjoy the story about Barney and Rob and the toilet and the phone boxes!!! It was alright.

I thoroughly enjoyed it as I tend to hang onto every word spoken about JD and NO. Obviously they had to use archive interviews with some of the protagonists, but it would be dissapointing if the archives were plundered to represent the living. I can listen to Tony Wilson all day long and I loved his comment about Barney and the band becoming their own selves away from JD at the time they formed Temptation (Taros Shevchenko) Brilliant stuff.

It was okay, but the biggest upset is that the words 'Power, Corruption and Lies' never appeared even once - possibly the biggest point of transformation, and it's existence wasn't even acknowledged. Gah.

Maybe that's because 'Power Corruption and Lies' is pants. Anyway it hasn;t got the name on the cover (think about it)

I enjoyed it.

:D

Mobys a knob BTW ... has he heard Movement??? should have not skipped over PCL,LL,BH.. a bit quick though... there best stuff as Radcliffe pointed out...

its funny they referred to moby as a musician at the time he bought movement. wasn't he like 5 or something?

yeah PCL dropped out of nowhere.

I disagree about confusion, its a great tune.

my mate told me about this before i saw it here, he saw it in a listings mag where it had miranda 'why the hell am in this stuff' sawyer talking about their appeal - 'football hooligans and spotty students'. right. just like what barney said on the New Order Story video. If that's what being a critic takes I reckon I can do it. after that bloody pitiful q&a session on the dvd... arghhhh

of course the worst thing about radio doccos is that they have to say everybody's name before each soundbite. rapidly it becomes waring.

btw it was a bit rich of morely critiscising sounds for their epitaph (that make care for you, that man died for you, that man saw the madness in your area) when he went on to write probably the biggest load of tosh in the history of english literature. how to strech a novella's worth of material to like 2000 pages (or so it seemed)

Yeah, no real new or relevatory stuff. Didn't learn much. Important parts were skipped over.

But hell, I could still listen to mediocre New Order documentaries all day. The moment of recognition when they started playing "Blue Monday" was worth the listen alone. That sort of "oh, that's right, that's what happened next in the band's discography" sort of realization. It's great fun.

Originally posted by Mr Ben btw it was a bit rich of morely critiscising sounds for their epitaph (that make care for you, that man died for you, that man saw the madness in your area) when he went on to write probably the biggest load of tosh in the history of english literature. how to strech a novella's worth of material to like 2000 pages (or so it seemed)

Sorry to be a pedantic swine, but it wasn't Morley who said that, it was Kevin Cummins.

Originally posted by speedy586 It was okay, but the biggest upset is that the words 'Power, Corruption and Lies' never appeared even once - possibly the biggest point of transformation, and it's existence wasn't even acknowledged. Gah.

Seconded.

ahh yeah. still he had a go sounds without having a go at morely (granted he delayed 20 years, but still its atrocious). all friends together.

i liked it. and i love you miranda.

Originally posted by speedy586 It was okay, but the biggest upset is that the words 'Power, Corruption and Lies' never appeared even once - possibly the biggest point of transformation, and it's existence wasn't even acknowledged. Gah.

My thoughts exactly, Speedy. Overall a poorly researched disappointment (EGG / Ceremony on Movement?). Also, seeing as the transition from Movement to PC&L was, IMHO, the biggest single step in the evolution from JD to NO, to not even mention PC&L was ignorant at best.

Good points: Wilson's comment about Barney finding his voice during Taras Temptation, and, er, that's it.

Originally posted by Solitude I thoroughly enjoyed it as I tend to hang onto every word spoken about JD and NO.Obviously they had to use archive interviews with some of the protagonists, but it would be dissapointing if the archives were plundered to represent the living.I can listen to Tony Wilson all day long and I loved his comment about Barney and the band becoming their own selves away from JD at the time they formed Temptation (Taros Shevchenko) Brilliant stuff.

I have a couple of weeks paternity leave coming up any day now - instead of changing nappies I may decide to transfer some of my old BBC tapes to CD. If so I'll let you have a copy of these Solitude. The Substance Part 1 and Part 2 documentaries broadcast Feb/Mar 1988 are far more interesting that this latest documentary. I also have "Story of Factory" (1991), a Tony Wilson Interview and a programme called "City to City : Manchester".

I was actually interested in Miranda Sawyer's comments about what it was like to be in the Hacienda with 25 other people ("it was like being in a private club"). That was quite insightful and better than the usual "there were never many people in there" comments that are mentioned every time the words "Hacienda 1982 to 1986" are mentioned :)

Arthur Baker's comments about the making of Confusion,were also revealing (I didn't know about the 15 hours worth of complete crap that they were forced to record), and the band's recollection of how that record came to be - a lot of respect for each other (Hooky : "He was a mad professor", Baker "Steve was the mad professor").

The factual errors were unforgiveable, as was the complete omission of PCL. Poor, poor research The period 1982 to 1986 (a point alluded to by Sawyer) was their most defining period, but it was skipped over far too quickly for my liking.

The archive interviews with Gretton, and to a lesser degree Hannett, are always welcome - I can listen to Gretton for hours.

As others have said, I think Wilson's comment about Barney finding himself during the version of Temptation on Taras Shevchenko are probably spot on. For once, he was speaking a lot of sense.

All in all, nothing new really, but still worth a listen. I think next week's may be a lot more revealing (there were hints when Hooky said how difficult it was to write lyrics for Revenge) - as others have said, this first part was really a rehash of the Substance programmes.

Why don't we make one? it could be a decent length (3+ hours is what is required), we could license the archive recordings of hannet & gretton from the beeb or whoever and do new interviews with the rest of the crowd.

gotta be better than this load of tosh written by people who don't care about the band. and we can stop neil tennant from appearing again and telling his boring blue monday story.

Originally posted by Adam Tate > Originally posted by Solitude> I thoroughly enjoyed it as I tend to hang onto every word spoken about JD and NO.> Obviously they had to use archive interviews with some of the protagonists, but it would be dissapointing if the archives were plundered to represent the living.> I can listen to Tony Wilson all day long and I loved his comment about Barney and the band becoming their own selves away from JD at the time they formed Temptation (Taros Shevchenko) Brilliant stuff.

Why thank you Adam. please check your mailbox

I have a couple of weeks paternity leave coming up any day now - instead of changing nappies I may decide to transfer some of my old BBC tapes to CD. If so I'll let you have a copy of these Solitude. The Substance Part 1 and Part 2 documentaries broadcast Feb/Mar 1988 are far more interesting that this latest documentary. I also have "Story of Factory" (1991), a Tony Wilson Interview and a programme called "City to City : Manchester".

The folks were actually from the other site, I think, as I seem to recall David Sultan posted a comment on there earlier this year, inviting folks to e-mail questions to Radio 2.

Originally posted by Johnny Giles ..oh & the bit when Mark Radcliffe said they'd been scouring the internet for questions from fans to put to the band, that got my ears pricked up, was hoping to hear the names of NOOL folk but didnae recognise any of 'em. Hands up if you're out there.....Martin Johnson of LondonMark FurnellMaria Slaski of Hobart Apologies for spelling!

This is blatant favouritism for the christian names starting with 'M'. I'll cancel my BBC licence. Disgusted from Norwich

I guess a pov on the doc comes from where you are and how accessible/available NO/JD have been to you.

Most people here in the US never heard of JD until Ian died and that was mostly because of the novelty of some English punk group having their lead singer hang himself the night before the big US tour. Nothing was noted in the rags about how the band would continue after Ian. In contrast, I remember many trees' worth of articles being devoted to the futures of the Who and Led Zep after Moony and Bonzo died. Their music was only played on college and indie stations and records had to be searched for because they were import only. It was rare that an article appeared - MAYBE a small blurb in Rolling Stone, but more likely in Trouser Press (what a incredible mag!) but even then finding it was difficult because it didn't have the circulation of RS. I had to subcribe to it to make sure I got every issue. The only radio show that I can remember is King Biscuit - memory escapes me on the others. I KNOW that there were others because I have the records.

Those of you in England had the luxury of NME, MM, RM, etc., the BBC aired their songs and even had interviews(!), concerts that are too fucking easy to get to because it's like 10-15hrs max from the top end of Scotland to the bottom end of England, easily available records...you have NO idea of how great you had (and still have) it.

Anyhoo...I loved what I heard last night. Hearing their voices was fun and to me most everything was new and therefore informative. I'll be tickled pink to hear the 2nd part.

ummm...

i thought the documentary wasn't bad, but morley and sawyer are annoying me. it's as if they're the only two people in this world who are worthy of even mentioning the words "NEW ORDER".

and quite frankly, i couldn't give a toss whether sawyer was from a middle class background, who went to the hacienda to talk about different things. i guess this documentary was good for the general music lover, but for hardcore new order fans, it was rather flat and lifeless.

however, one plus was hearing the voice of gillian, i've not heard her voice for a good while :)

Originally posted by Mr Ben Why don't we make one? it could be a decent length (3+ hours is what is required), we could license the archive recordings of hannet & gretton from the beeb or whoever and do new interviews with the rest of the crowd. gotta be better than this load of tosh written by people who don't care about the band. and we can stop neil tennant from appearing again and telling his boring blue monday story.

EXCELLENTE! :D IT COULD COINCIDE WITH THE RELEASE OF COMMUNITY! ALTHO' IT MIGHT BE TOUGH

thats a damn good idea. a data cd with the whole 3 hour docco in mp3 as the b side.

Originally posted by Johnny Giles I'm gonna go against the grain slightly and say I thought the doc was pretty good on the whole, *for what it was meant to be*. It contained valid comments from all the key players and drew attention to the main events in the bands first 10 years. Yes, I think PCL should have been commented upon, it benchmarked a sea-change in British music, but I guess the bands' transition from industry to technology was covered in the EGG section, and there was only 1 hour to play with. Thing is, can justice be done, to all JD-NO achieved in that period in just one hour? well, for many devotees like us, the answer I guess is 'no'. We devour every tiny morsel the media produces and have done so regimentally for the last 20 years+, we know the story inside and out, almost better than our own lives, we sometimes feel it's part of our own lives. Realistically, how much new stuff did we expect to get from this? after all, it is a retrospective. When the objective is to compress a long story into a bite size chunk, our info-hungry appetites are unlikely to feel satisfied.I would guess these type of broadcasts are targeted at a broader 'quite interested' market who want a general overview of the history of the band, more than the detail-junkies [myself very much included] who come on this site on a daily basis. They aint ever gonna win with us, the weary expert is always the hardest to please ;)For what it was supposed to be, I felt it did the job. And what New Order related project would feel right without the odd blatant mistake for us to crawl all over!

Beautifully put, JG - your review reads almost like a summary of Retro as well! CTB

i thought it was just about ok. fully agree about the research errors.

did anyone else notice that they said it took 6 months to record TPK and then just skipped over it? surely it would have been worth asking the band why it too so long and then maybe playing some of it ON ITS OWN??

i've got a feeling that it will be better next week. hopefully some hedonistic stories from the technique days. here's hoping...

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by CTB> > > Beautifully put, JG - your review reads almost like a summary of Retro as well! > CTB>

My thoughts, entirely, Candy. I've just read through two pages of this post and it sounded like the Retro rehash all over again. Even before this was broadcast, I couldn't help but think we weren't gonna hear anything, that we didn't already know, so I was a bit, like, why bother? And I didn't. Bother, that is. I would've listened to it online at some point this week but it doesn't seem worth the effort now, does it, after all these comments?

Al, it is quite shocking how much was used from the 'Here Are The Young Men, Now That We've Grown Up Together' documentary broadcast in '87 'ish. Although that doc. is (in my opinion) the benchmark interview archive (especially as some original protagonists have passed), you would have thought that Radcliffe would have at least attempted some fresh direction?, some original and genuine input?

Listen to it Al, if only to ensure you have witnessed the most lazy, pathetic attempt to chronicle the JD/NO story. Utterly worthless, for fan and non-fan. In reality, you could have shoved the 1 hour into 5 mins. and still had time for a cup of tea. I would be interested to hear your opinions on it. I thought it would be pretty average, I didn't expect it to be crap (with so much material and interesting events to go on!). It was as if Radio 2 hadn't even watched 24hr pp before embarking on the project. In fact, half way through they go 'here's some fans questions' which were so predictable they weren't worth answering.

To add to the catastrophe, glaring mistakes were so upsetting as to make the entire show an absolute disgraceful sham. Moby has propelled himself to dizzy new heights of rubbish'ness, which can't have been easy. Miranda who? ... oh dear. I'm surprised the few snippits of Barney and co. weren't ended by them saying 'have you not got an original question to put to us, this is a waste of time'.

Any chance of getting some of these old radio interviews and documentaries up in the audio archives, Mr Webmaster? It'd be interesting to hear old items for the/my first time

Andy.

Originally posted by Johnny Giles > Originally posted by CTB> > > Beautifully put, JG - your review reads almost like a summary of Retro as well! > CTB>

It's uncanny you should say that WG, as it's exactly what I was thinking as I was writing!.

I kinda feel that we let ourselves get a bit over excited in anticiption of these events which can mean only 1 outcome - disappointment, as a certainty.

Huntsdude, we didn't really expect Radcliffe to reinvent the wheel on a story that's already been told on umpteen occassions just to keep the 'ardcore happy? did we?. Just cos said 'ardcore wanna do a compare & contrast with all previously available material. I doubt 80%-90% of the people who've listened to the prog will be aware of any overlap with some broadcasts from 15 years back.

We're the 10%-20% [& that's probably a generous estimate], with a bad case of NO OCD, who Radcliffe and Co arn't gonna bend over backwards to keep happy. The lengths and efforts just wouldn't be worth while.

I just can't get too excited about the lack of new spin, surely every angle of this tale has been explored and published somewhere or other.

So it begs the obvious and much-repeated question to light - if the nostalgia component of NO's appeal is so strong (and marketable), why don't we hear more of the back catalogue live? Some of the interview anecdotes are sounding as well-rehearsed as the live renditions of LWTUA et al.

Oops, sorry - rant over. CTB

JG, the thing I don't understand is what the doc. was all about. With nothing new to promote, it seems unlikely it was a vehicle to attract new fans, with it being so light, it was not aimed at the hardcore.

So, why chose such a good story to fill a bit of air space? - seems a bit incongruous, especially when Mark Radish Leaf was at the helm.

No your right, it would have been silly to expect something quite new on such a famous story, but I did hope for something to sparkle. There doesn't have to be a great big massive huge point to everything in the world at all times, but its nice if there is some gold beneath the water. I have come to terms with the fact that Retro does contain mostly all NO could offer, which is something.

Apologies if I sound like a whining sod, we ran out of milk this morning and I've yet to consume a decent mug of tea.

The New Order Story Part II next Saturday, is Blind Date still on?

One would hope that Part 2 may be a bit more informative. The original Radio 1 two-parter told the story up to 1988, so they shouldn't be able to just plunder that to make another programme. Talking of which, you can maybe forgive them using that particular archive for the Gretton and Hannett soundbites, God rest, but to use the Saville and Gillian Gilbert bits as well was pretty lazy.

Originally posted by Johnny Giles > Originally posted by Huntsman> JG,> the thing I don't understand is what the doc. was all about. With nothing new to promote, it seems unlikely it was a vehicle to attract new fans, with it being so light, it was not aimed at the hardcore.> > So, why chose such a good story to fill a bit of air space? - seems a bit incongruous, especially when Mark Radish Leaf was at the helm.> > >

Yes, that is difficult to explain. Why was such a prog commissioned during an obvious fallow period for the band?. If it had come out 2 weeks prior to the release of Retro, then fair enough, but now?. Guess the Beeb can do what they want, when they want, but you'd think it would have more listener appeal if NO had something out in the public eye at the same time. Dunno.

Ees obvious. Saville was late for the recording.....

Have listened to the Doc a second time and find Mark Radcliffe quite annoying. The only real highlight for me was hearing "At A Later Date" for the first time in years(i have "Live At The Electric Circus" EP, but alas, no record player). All in all it was okay and good to hear stories about the band that i had forgot about. Will be tuning in for part 2.

Originally posted by Solitude > Originally posted by Johnny Giles> > ..oh & the bit when Mark Radcliffe said they'd been scouring the internet for questions from fans to put to the band, that got my ears pricked up, was hoping to hear the names of NOOL folk but didnae recognise any of 'em. Hands up if you're out there.....> > Martin Johnson of London> Mark Furnell> Maria Slaski of Hobart > > Apologies for spelling!> > >

This is blatant favouritism for the christian names starting with 'M'. I'll cancel my BBC licence. Disgusted from Norwich

Names beginning with "M" get my vote

Names beginning with "M" get my vote

Marko, did you get my email?

Part II was alot better

I agree,tonights second part was so much better.I enjoyed it a lot.Just burn't it to CD.

Originally posted by Solitude > > > Names beginning with "M" get my vote

Marko, did you get my email?

Got it Peter, will send one back Monday.