Ian Curtis and Borderline Personality Disorder

Hello - my name is Mike and this is my first time posting on this forum. I live in Ohio, USA and New Order is my favorite band. I'm going to get right to the point, which is kind of serious. I found out in February that I have borderline personality disorder, but I'm not here to talk about me. In re-reading Debbie Curtis' "Touching from a Distance", it's fairly obvious to me that Ian had BPD, too. Here's the evidence:

1. BPD can be caused by childhood abuse or at least not receiving affection from the parents. I recall Debbie saying the only person Ian was really close to was his aunt (Nell?). (The only family member I'm really close to is my Aunt Carole - my parents almost never showed me affection.)

2. BPDs are desperate for affection and become very possessive and manipulative of the lovers in their life. I've been guilty of this. Debbie's book is filled with tons of examples of Ian's abusive manipulation and possessive attitude toward her. I'm sure Annik got it too.

3. BPDs are very open in sharing their pain with others and feel no embarrassment in doing so. I know like many BPDs, I used to meet people and tell them how miserable and fucked up I was. Ian shared his pain in his songs like no other poet. This is why I relate to Joy Division lyrics more than any other band - I've been there.

4. BPDs will fake other illnesses for attention. Has anyone else considered it's too much of a coincidence that Ian contracted epilepsy right after working with epileptics and learning all about them? Most epileptics come down with it when they're children or rather old, not when they're 22. Debbie admits that he'd throw fits when "he was at the losing end of an argument". She says the doctors could never find anything wrong with him and no pills seemed to help in any predictable manner. This is just a theory and I think Debbie hinted at it in her book, but is not sure.

5. Borderlines are self-destructive and suicidal. I used to cut my arms like many BPDs do. Debbie talks about Ian puncturing his leg with soccer shoe cleats as a kid and cutting his leg on stage with a broken beer glass at least once. I sometimes still take as many drugs, over-the-counter, prescription, and illegal, as I can to see what it will do to me, to feel good, and to slowly destroy myself. This is also why I took up smoking last year at age 27. Ian and his friends used to mess around with all kinds of drugs, like when they'd raid the old peoples' medecine cabinets and also sniff solvents. I have attempted suicide four times. I have made a promise to myself to never attempt again, but this last week has been really hard. Ian attempted twice and succeeded once.

I know there's more evidence out there. Any other amateur psychiatrists care to comment? I hope I haven't offended anyone.

Mike Riddles

"Existence, well, what does it matter? I exist on the best terms I can."

Advices :

1.Stop listening to Joy Division 2.Stop using drugs 3.Don't listen to Movement again 4.Make more sex :sex: 5.Study more 6.Don't drink too much

Hey mike,

I also found it kind of odd that Ian "began suffering" from epilepsy so soon after his experiences with epipleptics in his work, and I brought up the point on a long-since-demised JD message board about three years ago. I think we'll never know for sure if Ian was a serious sufferer who was just dormant for so long, or whether he "faked" it as part of a different medical condition. My own personnal take is that it might have been something he was unaware of, but triggered by the strains of his collapsing marriage and the stress of performing. That is, he might have hypochondriac-ly taken on the symptoms of epilepsy, maybe because on some subconcious level he had the disease but it hadn't been triggered. Of course, I don't know a great deal about the disease itself, but I think it's possible that Ian had the capacity to be an epileptic but wasn't aware of it until he perhaps recognized himself in some of the epileptics who came to his office looking for work. I think you're on to something there with the BPD...

I have always believed that Ian wasn't an epileptic. His MRI scans showed up no brain abnormality. He found out how to trigger fits from his abuse of, amongst other things, dry cleaning fluid. His on-stage dancing was an attempt to trigger such fits when combined with a cocktail of drugs and alcohol. The drugs he was prescribed for his "epilepsy" helped create the condition, but his fits were induced rather than being bona fide epilepsy. The man wanted to be epileptic, rather that was an epileptic.

i think "make more sex" is the best advice anyone could give you :sex: :sex: :sex: :sex: :sex: :sex: :sex: :sex:

I have a couple of things to add to this.

Mike, I really respect your theory and situation. I think you're on to something there, and Borderline Disorder is serious business. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks for posting!

About Ian's epilepsy--Debbie also reports a few episodes earlier in Ian's life, before he became interested in epilepsy, where he blacked out or fainted, sometimes coinciding with a flashing light or something. There are different types of seizures, and these could very well have been early ones for him, though Debbie assumed they were, I don't know, acid flashbacks or something at the time.

I have wondered about the legitimacy of his epilepsy too, and I found out that there might be a kind of psychosomatic seizures as opposed to physical epilepsy, and the head movements are different between the two with the psychosomatic kind involving back and forth head shaking. From Debbie's descriptions, it sounds like Ian's head only went up and down. I don't have a lot to go on there, though.

There is a parallel situation with another familiar musician that comes to mind: Neil Young. I read his recent biography, Shakey, recently. Neil Young's epilepsy also started when he was in his early twenties, around the time he took off for Los Angeles from Canada to join the music scene there. He started Buffalo Springfield with Steven Stills there, and his illness helped make Buffalo Springfield a difficult experience. The song "Mr. Soul" is in part about epilepsy and "Expecting to Fly" may also be. During some shows, Neil would reportedly get quite worked up and have to be rushed offstage to avoid having a seizure. Usually this was during--guess which--"Mr. Soul." Not that he was happy about this happening to him. People accused him of using his illness manipulatively, such as to gain the sympathy of pretty girls who would take him home and take care of him. The author of The Mansion on the Hill (forgot his name) accuses him of this but the author of Shakey, who certainly doesn't saint him, refutes it. Also, stress can bring on seizures, it doesn't mean someone is faking.

He hated the meds. At some point, he managed to gain control over his epilepsy and it is pretty much under control to this day by way of, he claims, mind over matter. If he feels something coming on he goes in a quiet place and somehow waits it out and it goes away. Somehow I doubt most people could do that but apparently Neil Young can.

So though this is anecdotal and not an empirical "Epileptic Rock Stars Study", I think it helps us think about how the illness is not so cut and dry.

One more thing. Lots of people with epilepsy have trouble keeping it under control with meds and keep having to try various new ones and combinations, and have normal looking brains.

Alyssa

Originally posted by Known Pleasures I have always believed that Ian wasn't an epileptic. His MRI scans showed up no brain abnormality. He found out how to trigger fits from his abuse of, amongst other things, dry cleaning fluid. His on-stage dancing was an attempt to trigger such fits when combined with a cocktail of drugs and alcohol. The drugs he was prescribed for his "epilepsy" helped create the condition, but his fits were induced rather than being bona fide epilepsy. The man wanted to be epileptic, rather that was an epileptic.

That could partially explain why, though I may be mistaken, he had seizures several times during performances of "Atrocity Exhibition." Quite coincidental(?) Tony Wilson does mention how Ian's performances would seem to take him over the edge and induce a fit, but he blamed that on Ian not being prescribed enough medication. A psychological disorder could help explain why he would carry on with the epilepsy and the need to be cared for at home, because otherwise why bother putting his family through that as well? But wouldn't the doctors at the time have considered it a possibility that he'd be faking it? It seems he didn't have the best health care, but I doubt it would've been ruled out as a possibility (though maybe they would have suspected something had he lived longer). His medications, at least the ones described in the book, certainly don't sound like they could trigger a fit (I mean what in sedatives and anti-psychotic drugs could really trigger a huge electrical surge in the brain, since they actually counteract that activity?). If he was using more than pot and alcohol (which is mentioned he was still using near the end) to trigger the fits, wouldn't his bandmates like Barney have known about it? My question is: why would be bother faking the condition? So the band would become more popular? If so, it seems silly that he would kill himself because then he'd be unable to share the increasing good fortune of the band (i.e., a U.S. tour); making himself into a posthumous icon is certainly considered in the book, especially given that his heros died young, but why would he go that far when his band was still climbing in popularity? Because of the stifled talent factor, after having released critically well-received music? I don't know...I'm just thinking aloud. It is a provocative argument, though. Some of the fits, especially at home, were probably faked, but I hardly see why he'd bother doing it all the time. Seems a bit fishy to me. His feelings of "flashbacks" and the earlier reaction to strobe lights even before they formed the band makes me seriously doubt that he'd planned out a fake condition so far ahead of time, especially has he'd not yet learned about the condition for his job by that time. Does anyone know if epilepsy can occur without manifesting signs that can be read by brain scans?

I remembered France 98 world cup final when Ronaldo had some convulsions just a day before the final against France.It ruined our team though I am still sure Brazil sold the title to france :D

Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart I remembered France 98 world cup final when Ronaldo had some convulsions just a day before the final against France.It ruined our team though I am still sure Brazil sold the title to france :D

The French poisoned him. You mark my words.

Originally posted by Known Pleasures > Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart I remembered France 98 world cup final when Ronaldo had some convulsions just a day before the final against France.It ruined our team though I am still sure Brazil sold the title to france :D

The French poisoned him. You mark my words.

I am talking serious Tim

Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart > Originally posted by Known Pleasures > Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart I remembered France 98 world cup final when Ronaldo had some convulsions just a day before the final against France.It ruined our team though I am still sure Brazil sold the title to france :D

The French poisoned him. You mark my words.

I am talking serious Tim

So am I. Adidas offered more than Nike.

Originally posted by Known Pleasures > Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart > Originally posted by Known Pleasures > Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart I remembered France 98 world cup final when Ronaldo had some convulsions just a day before the final against France.It ruined our team though I am still sure Brazil sold the title to france :D

The French poisoned him. You mark my words.

I am talking serious Tim

So am I. Adidas offered more than Nike.

I thought Adidas was German. Guess our Deutsche friends were just pissed they weren't in the final (for a change).

This is getting :topic:

Originally posted by Marko > > > > > > > > I thought Adidas was German. Guess our Deutsche friends were just pissed they weren't in the final (for a change).> > > > This is getting :topic:>

Indeed, but they were the major investors in the French team.