Decline and Fall

Not quite sure what I mean myself, but I'm disturbed by the way this seems like a continuum.

Tony Wilson blamed Busted on the Ramones, mind.

Where's the Elvis/US Army option?

No Joy Division/New Order?

blink 182 and Sum 41...it all begins when bands have numbers in their names

Like The Dave Clarke 5?

I'm with Taboo. If we mean when did punk begin to decline, I'd say the bands with the numbers. If we mean the decline of classic rock, that would be the Noo Yawk Dolls.

Originally posted by death of art Like The Dave Clarke 5?

In terms of punk (I'm guessing that's what we're talking about "declining" here)

Oh well in that case: 999!

And Sham 69.

Originally posted by death of art Oh well in that case: 999!

There's no fooling this one.

Surely it was the day the Clash signed with CBS; it was printed in the paper, so it must be true then. ;)

That was certainly the way Mark Perry (Sniffin' Glue/ATV) saw it. I think there is a fair amount of truth in that - once everyone buys their clothes from SEX and The Daily Mail do a two page spread on how to dress like a punk, the edge is well and trully lost.

It's a difficult one though because an element of it has to do with geography. If you lived in London in 1976 and followed the Pistols from the start, the rot probably set in before The Clash had released their first single.

If you lived in, say, Darlington, the ripples would take longer to get to you and punk may still be cutting edge by spring of 1977. Once the Jubilee kicks off and Sid replaces Matlock in the Pistols, the purists are running off in the other direction. Why do you think Devoto left Buzzcocks so soon? ("I'm a living in this movie/but it doesn't move me").

If you lived in Poland though, the ripples might have really affected you in the mid-80s. The first wave punk records (I'm talking UK scene here) will have affected a lot of people a lot later, who didn't necessarily get to hear about The Exploited or 999 and so never lost the freshness of it all.

Let's face it, in Seattle it had it's biggest effects way after what you term the rot set in.

Of course, if you lived in New York in 1974-5 you might think that the UK scene was just a pub-rock joke. Like I said, it's all a question of context.

I was in a record shop on Friday and two lads of about 15 came in and bought the first Ramones LP on CD. They obviously worked their way back to it and found the music fresh and exciting. It may be that they started off liking Blink 182 or whatever, it doesn't matter. It still inspired them and got them interested.

On that basis perhaps there is no rot because there's always a new audience for whom our jaded old tat is their bright new vision.

Death of Art is brilliant.

I'm not sure myself that it's rot if it reaches a wider audience. If EVERYBODY in the world went punk (I'm not referring to affecting the style, but more about adopting the ethos), would that be such a bad thing?

Originally posted by death of art On that basis perhaps there is no rot because there's always a new audience for whom our jaded old tat is their bright new vision.

Death Of Art, you make a very good point. A good example of what you've said is dance music. Here in the UK, everyone's claiming it's dead, but everywhere else in the world, it's really starting to kick off. That sort of thing is why I get fed up with the UK sometimes; it's up its own ass, frankly.

Just picking myself off the floor following your very nice comments!

Blue, if EVERYBODY went punk it would be difficult to buy groceries...

And Shelley, I agree 100% about the UK attitude. It's one of the reasons I stopped reading the NME - there's only so much you can take of the build 'em up/knock 'em down/we liked 'em before they'd even formed kind of journalism.

Originally posted by death of art And Shelley, I agree 100% about the UK attitude. It's one of the reasons I stopped reading the NME - there's only so much you can take of the build 'em up/knock 'em down/we liked 'em before they'd even formed kind of journalism.

That's why I stopped reading it too; I got sick of that kind of attitude. BRMC have had it the worst in that respect; the NME keep building them up and then stabbing them in the back. If you ask me, the boys should do what The Darkness did and tell the rag to fuck off. In fact, if more bands who got picked on did that, it might make the music press grow up a bit and stop the sort of thing you've described.

Originally posted by Shelley Blair > Originally posted by death of art> And Shelley, I agree 100% about the UK attitude. It's one of the reasons I stopped reading the NME - there's only so much you can take of the build 'em up/knock 'em down/we liked 'em before they'd even formed kind of journalism.

That's why I stopped reading it too; I got sick of that kind of attitude. BRMC have had it the worst in that respect; the NME keep building them up and then stabbing them in the back. If you ask me, the boys should do what The Darkness did and tell the rag to fuck off. In fact, if more bands who got picked on did that, it might make the music press grow up a bit and stop the sort of thing you've described.

When did the NME tell the Scum to Fuck off? The NME has rammed the darkness down everyones throat for the last six months, and continues to do so.

The Darkness will be like Frankie Goes to Hollywood, they will be unable to kepp up the initial impact and the Novelty will soon wear off. Festival Headliners next year, The Empire music hall the year after.

On a sidenote, my flatmate says that the guy in the Scum is a better guitarist that Johnny Marr. Surely he is the only one who thinks this?

I hadn't actually looked at the NME since Paul Morley's time. Looked at it the other day and was a bit shocked by the state of it. It's turned into Smash Hits without the pizazz. It's not even a shadow of its former self, more a faint memory of a pale reflection of a shadow of its former self.

Originally posted by Shelley Blair > Originally posted by death of art> And Shelley, I agree 100% about the UK attitude. It's one of the reasons I stopped reading the NME - there's only so much you can take of the build 'em up/knock 'em down/we liked 'em before they'd even formed kind of journalism.

That's why I stopped reading it too; I got sick of that kind of attitude. BRMC have had it the worst in that respect; the NME keep building them up and then stabbing them in the back. If you ask me, the boys should do what The Darkness did and tell the rag to fuck off. In fact, if more bands who got picked on did that, it might make the music press grow up a bit and stop the sort of thing you've described.

You mean like Morrissey? :D

Actually, I think it's extremely funny that after 10 years of trying to kill him off the NME recently had to eat humble pie and admit that the Smiths were the most important band ever (I don't agree with this, obviously, as there is another Manchester pop combo more worthy of the title). Particularly as most of their bile at him came about because he wouldn't give them a proper interview! He single handedly sold more papers for them in the '80s than anyone else.

To quote Billy Childish "I hate the fucking NME". But what else is there now? A selection of style mags pretending to be music press (Bang/X-Ray, etc) or coffee table mags for the 40 something hippy generation (MOJO/Q, etc). I just despair. If you don't have a good music press and no good radio stations, how is decent new music ever going to break out of the village?

The media is only interested in people who are famous for being famous, not for being talented (Popeye Idol/Big Brother, etc). I give up.

Rant over, sorry. I'm off to buy the new Busted album...

Actually, DoA, I quite like Bang and Mojo because they don't bitch about music and bands like the NME do; they're a bit more professional than that. I'm sticking with them from now on.

I really dropped off in my consumption of music-press rags this past year, as there really didn't seem to be much new going on that I cared about, and plus the omnipresence of Rolling Stone in the absence of Mojo or Q in most of the magazine stands I came across sickened me. RS should just admit that they're trying to become a teen pop magazine, that there's very little serious attempts to represent the musical tastes of those of us who couldn't tell the difference between 50 Cent and Ja Rule.

We call him 50 Pence over here Trev. I can't cope with all this undermining of the UK currency.

Originally posted by death of art We call him 50 Pence over here Trev. I can't cope with all this undermining of the UK currency.

I'm just waiting for the rapper "Buck Fifty" to make his debut onto the charts :D