WMD???

:( Such an evil regime. Even Hitler refrained from using chemical weapons in combat.

Originally posted by twist :( Such an evil regime. Even Hitler refrained from using chemical weapons in combat.

No argument that it was a throughly evil regime. Not sure that 'using chemical weapons in combat' is the most important aspect of its wickedness though. Hitler might not have used them but both sides did use chemical weapons in WW1 after all. And Agent Orange in Vietnam was essentially a chemical weapon. And Israel almost certainly has chemical weapons, which presumably it is prepared to use. And of course the US didn't much mind about Iraq using chemical weapons in the war with Iran.

Not to mention the fact that the West has long been open about not ruling out using _nuclear_ weapons in combat.

Remember RFH 84, when Barney said, "Iv'e got a cock like the M1" now that sounds like a weapon of mass destruction

And where did Iraq get most of its weapons from during the 80s?

You'all are patently un-American in yours assessment of this here war as being somehow "a waste of American lives in the pursuit of a boldy nationalistic and imperialistic policy" instituted by my White House. I hereby say you all is "enemy combatants", and I'll put you away for a while so as I can get myself through this here "election" and then have some good ole fashioned "Southern Justice", like hanging them Negros from trees back in the good ole days. Yessir, we knew what to do with an uppity nig....I mean, I sure do hope it don't come to that, but you all better shut yer yapers. Yessir, I is president, Aw Hell the Chief!

Sincerely, Dubya

I use Agent Orange around my house. Its called Round Up. A defoliant is totally different than a blistering agent. The former is used to kill vegetation to expose hidden enemy. The later is used to maim and kill people.

Not only did Saddam use mustard gas against Iran he also used VX gas. These weapons were also used against Shiia and Kurd populations in Iraq.

Nuclear deterence is totally different. Kurds were not going to gas Iraqi soldiers. Soviets could have nuked the US or Britain.

Reminds me, time to play Skinny Puppy's VX Gas Attack.

I hear that Napalm smarts a bit though.

The RAF bombed at night. USAAF bomb during the day so it could see its targets.

"You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr

On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants, possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in what was the worst single event massacre of all time.

___

Toward the end of World War II, as Allied planes rained death and destruction over Germany, the old Saxon city of Dresden lay like an island of tranquillity amid desolation. Famous as a cultural center and possessing no military value, Dresden had been spared the terror that descended from the skies over the rest of the country.

In fact, little had been done to provide the ancient city of artists and craftsmen with anti-aircraft defenses. One squadron of planes had been stationed in Dresden for awhile, but the Luftwaffe decided to move the aircraft to another area where they would be of use. A gentlemen's agreement seemed to prevail, designating Dresden an "open city."

February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city. Together with the 600.000 refugees from Breslau, Dresden was filled with nearly 1.2 million people. Churchill had asked for "suggestions how to blaze 600.000 refugees". He wasn't interested how to target military installations 60 miles outside of Dresden. More than 700.000 phosphorus bombs were dropped on 1.2 million people. One bomb for every 2 people. The temperature in the centre of the city reached 1600 o centigrade. More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. Approximately 500.000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.

Sure the US has some bad history, War of 1812 is not explained properly to US students. Few Americans realize that their capitol was burned down by the British because of this. But are the anti-Americans saying that the Saddam needs to be placed back in power and that the US should apologize for its mistakes??

twist<----last from me on this subject btw I voted for Gore

Originally posted by twist I voted for Gore

That's nothing to be proud of

For 2004 I wish John Edwards will win since he seems like the only half way decent man in the primaries; I would vote for him over Bush anyday. But the fake persons, Dean and Clark, seem to be candidates that will most likely emerge victorious in the primaries.

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by twist> I voted for Gore

That's nothing to be proud of

For 2004 I wish John Edwards will win since he seems like the only half way decent man in the primaries; I would vote for him over Bush anyday. But the fake persons, Dean and Clark, seem to be candidates that will most likely emerge victorious in the primaries.

I doubt Edwards will make it very far: he just doesn't have the name-recognition of a Dean or Gephardt. I was enthusiastic when he (Edwards) declared his candidacy last year and even signed up to "volunteer" for his campaign, but he faded fast in the wake of Howard from Vermont and I lost interest. I kept getting e-mails from the Edwards campaign, however, and I didn't have the heart to move it to my "blocked addresses" list until this past week. It just got annoying. There went my short career in political activism. :D

I realize Dean's the "big" candidate right now, but he just seems untrustworthy, and besides I think he might burn out over the next few months. Gephardt and Lieberman are too "old school" and Kerry can't buy a thrill. All the others...if I could remember their names, I'd be sure to include them.

So I guess it's "Sharpton in '04!" for me

i wish john hinkley would assasinate Bush Jr, give his dead body to the Iraqi people and let them parade his severed head around on a rusty spear. i hate that stupid, beady eyed fuck.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid i wish john hinkley would assasinate Bush Jr, give his dead body to the Iraqi people and let them parade his severed head around on a rusty spear. i hate that stupid, beady eyed fuck.

Son, you just made my Enemas List

Dubya (I am bilingual, and not ashamed)

A letter from that bloke in a chicken suit

Dear Friends,

As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids who are in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of letters from our troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different from what we are seeing on the evening news.

What they are saying to me, often eloquently and in heart-wrenching words, is that they were lied to -- and this war has nothing to do with the security of the United States of America.

I've written back and spoken on the phone to many of them and I've asked a few of them if it would be OK if I posted their letters on my website and they've said yes. They do so at great personal risk (as they may face disciplinary measures for exercising their right to free speech). I thank them for their bravery.

Lance Corporal George Batton of the United States Marine Corps, who returned from Iraq in September (after serving in MP company Alpha), writes the following:

“You'd be surprised at how many of the guys I talked to in my company and others believed that the president's scare about Saddam's WMD was a bunch of bullshit and that the real motivation for this war was only about money. There was also a lot of crap that many companies, not just marine companies, had to go through with not getting enough equipment to fulfill their missions when they crossed the border. It was a miracle that our company did what it did the two months it was staying in Iraq during the war…. We were promised to go home on June 8th, and found out that it was a lie and we got stuck doing missions for an extra three months. Even some of the most radical conservatives in our company including our company gunnery sergeant got a real bad taste in their mouth about the Marine corps, and maybe even president Bush.”

Here's what Specialist Mike Prysner of the U.S. Army wrote to me:

“Dear Mike -- I’m writing this without knowing if it’ll ever get to you…I’m writing it from the trenches of a war (that’s still going on,) not knowing why I’m here or when I’m leaving. I’ve toppled statues and vandalized portraits, while wearing an American flag on my sleeve, and struggling to learn how to understand… I joined the army as soon as I was eligible – turned down a writing scholarship to a state university, eager to serve my country, ready to die for the ideals I fell in love with. Two years later I found myself moments away from a landing onto a pitch black airstrip, ready to charge into a country I didn't believe I belonged in, with your words (from the Oscars) repeating in my head. My time in Iraq has always involved finding things to convince myself that I can be proud of my actions; that I was a part of something just. But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation…"

An Army private, still in Iraq and wishing to remain anonymous, writes:

“I would like to tell you how difficult it is to serve under a man who was never elected. Because he is the president and my boss, I have to be very careful as to who and what i say about him. This also concerns me a great deal... to limit the military's voice is to limit exactly what America stands for... and the greater percentage of us feel completely underpowered. He continually sets my friends, my family, and several others in a kind of danger that frightens me beyond belief. I know several other soldiers who feel the same way and discuss the situation with me on a regular basis.”

Jerry Oliver of the U.S. Army, who has just returned from Baghdad, writes:

“I have just returned home from "Operation Iraqi Freedom". I spent 5 months in Baghdad, and a total of 3 years in the U.S. Army. I was recently discharged with Honorable valor and returned to the States only to be horrified by what I've seen my country turn into. I'm now 22 years old and have discovered America is such a complicated place to live, and moreover, Americans are almost oblivious to what's been happening to their country. America has become "1984." Homeland security is teaching us to spy on one another and forcing us to become anti-social. Americans are willingly sacrificing our freedoms in the name of security, the same Freedoms I was willing to put my life on the line for. The constitution is in jeopardy. As Gen. Tommy Franks said, (broken down of course) One more terrorist attack and the constitution will hold no meaning.”

And a Specialist in the U.S. Army wrote to me this week about the capture of Saddam Hussein:

“Wow, 130,000 troops on the ground, nearly 500 deaths and over a billion dollars a day, but they caught a guy living in a hole. Am I supposed to be dazzled?”

There are lots more of these, straight from the soldiers who have been on the front lines and have seen first hand what this war is really about.

I have also heard from their friends and relatives, and from other veterans. A mother writing on behalf of her son (whose name we have withheld) wrote:

“My son said that this is the worst it's been since the "end" of the war. He said the troops have been given new rules of engagement, and that they are to "take out" any persons who aggress on the Americans, even if it results in "collateral" damage. Unfortunately, he did have to kill someone in self defense and was told by his commanding officer ‘Good kill.’

"My son replied ‘You just don't get it, do you?’

"Here we are...Vietnam all over again.”

From a 56 year old Navy veteran, relating a conversation he had with a young man who was leaving for Iraq the next morning:

“What disturbed me most was when I asked him what weapons he carried as a truck driver. He told me the new M-16, model blah blah blah, stuff never made sense to me even when I was in. I asked him what kind of side arm they gave him and his fellow drivers. He explained, "Sir, Reservists are not issued side arms or flack vests as there was not enough money to outfit all the Reservists, only Active Personnel". I was appalled to say the least.

"Bush is a jerk agreed, but I can't believe he is this big an Asshole not providing protection and arms for our troops to fight HIS WAR!”

From a 40-year old veteran of the Marine Corps:

“Why is it that we are forever waving the flag of sovereignty, EXCEPT when it concerns our financial interests in other sovereign states? What gives us the right to tell anyone else how they should govern themselves, and live their lives? Why can't we just lead the world by example? I mean no wonder the world hates us, who do they get to see? Young assholes in uniforms with guns, and rich, old, white tourists! Christ, could we put up a worse first impression?”

(To read more from my Iraq mailbag -- and to read these above letters in full -- go to my website: http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/dudewheresmycountry/soldierletters/index.php)

Remember back in March, once the war had started, how risky it was to make any anti-war comments to people you knew at work or school or, um, at awards ceremonies? One thing was for sure -- if you said anything against the war, you had BETTER follow it up immediately with this line: "BUT I SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" Failing to do that meant that you were not only unpatriotic and un-American, your dissent meant that YOU were putting our kids in danger, that YOU might be the reason they lose their lives. Dissent was only marginally tolerated IF you pledged your "support" for our soldiers.

Of course, you needed to do no such thing. Why? Because people like you have ALWAYS supported "the troops." Who are these troops? They are our poor, our working class. Most of them enlisted because it was about the only place to get a job or receive the guarantee of a college education. You, my good friends, have ALWAYS, through your good works, your contributions, your activism, your votes, SUPPORTED these very kids who come from the other side of the tracks. You NEVER need to be defensive when it comes to your "support" for the "troops" -- you are the only ones who have ALWAYS been there for them.

It is Mr. Bush and his filthy rich cronies -- whose sons and daughters will NEVER see a day in a uniform -- they are the ones who do NOT support our troops. Our soldiers joined the military and, in doing so, offered to give THEIR LIVES for US if need be. What a tremendous gift that is -- to be willing to die so that you and I don't have to! To be willing to shed their blood so that we may be free. To serve in our place, so that WE don't have to serve. What a tremendous act of selflessness and generosity! Here they are, these 18, 19, and 20-year olds, most of whom have had to suffer under an unjust economic system that is set up NOT to benefit THEM -- these kids who have lived their first 18 years in the worst parts of town, going to the most miserable schools, living in danger and learning often to go without, watching their parents struggle to get by and then be humiliated by a system that is always looking to make life harder for them by cutting their benefits, their education, their libraries, their fire and police, their future.

And then, after this miserable treatment, these young men and women, instead of coming after US to demand a more just society, they go and join the army to DEFEND us and our way of life! It boggles the mind, doesn't it? They not only deserve our thanks, they deserve a big piece of the pie that we dine on, those of us who never have to worry about taking a bullet while we fret over which Palm Pilot to buy the nephew for Christmas.

In fact, all that these kids in the army ask for in return from us is our promise that we never send them into harm's way unless it is for the DEFENSE of our nation, to protect us from being killed by "the enemy."

And that promise, my friends, has been broken. It has been broken in the worst way imaginable. We have sent them into war NOT to defend us, not to protect us, not to spare the slaughter of innocents or allies. We have sent them to war so Bush and Company can control the second largest supply of oil in the world. We have sent them into war so that the Vice President's company can bilk the government for billions of dollars. We have sent them into war based on a lie of weapons of mass destruction and the lie that Saddam helped plan 9-11 with Osama bin Laden.

By doing all of this, Mr. Bush has proven that it is HE who does not support our troops. It is HE who has put their lives in danger, and it is HE who is responsible for the nearly 500 American kids who have now died for NO honest, decent reason whatsoever.

The letters I've received from the friends and relatives of our kids over there make it clear that they are sick of this war and they are scared to death that they may never see their loved ones again. It breaks my heart to read these letters. I wish there was something I could do. I wish there was something we all could do.

Maybe there is. As Christmas approaches (and Hanukkah begins tonight), I would like to suggest a few things each of us could do to make the holidays a bit brighter -- if not safer -- for our troops and their families back home.

1. Many families of soldiers are hurting financially, especially those families of reservists and National Guard who are gone from the full-time jobs ("just one weekend a month and we'll pay for your college education!"). You can help them by contacting the Armed Forces Emergency Relief Funds at http://www.afrtrust.org/ (ignore the rah-rah military stuff and remember that this is money that will help out these families who are living in near-poverty). Each branch has their own relief fund, and the money goes to help the soldiers and families with paying for food and rent, medical and dental expenses, personal needs when pay is delayed, and funeral expenses. You can find more ways to support the troops, from buying groceries for their families to donating your airline miles so they can get home for a visit, by going here.

2. Thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed by our bombs and indiscriminate shooting. We must help protect them and their survivors. You can do so by supporting the Quakers' drive to provide infant care kits to Iraqi hospitals—find out more here: http://www.afsc.org/iraq/relief/default.shtm. You can also help the people of Iraq by supporting the Iraqi Red Crescent Society—here’s how to contact them: http://www.ifrc.org/address/iq.asp, or you can make an online donation through the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies by going here: http://www.ifrc.org/HELPNOW/donate/donate\_iraq.asp.

3. With 130,000 American men and women currently in Iraq, every community in this country has either sent someone to fight in this war or is home to family members of someone fighting in this war. Organize care packages through your local community groups, activist groups, and churches and send them to these young men and women. The military no longer accepts packages addressed to “Any Soldier,” so you’ll have to get their names first. Figure out who you can help from your area, and send them books, CDs, games, footballs, gloves, blankets—anything that may make their extended (and extended and extended…) stay in Iraq a little brighter and more comfortable. You can also sponsor care packages to American troops through the USO: http://www.usocares.org/.

4. Want to send a soldier a free book or movie? I’ll start by making mine available for free to any soldier serving in Iraq. Just send me their name and address in Iraq (or, if they have already left Iraq, where they are now) and the first thousand emails I get at soldiers@michaelmoore.com will receive a free copy of "Dude..." or a free “Bowling…” DVD.

5. Finally, we all have to redouble our efforts to end this war and bring the troops home. That's the best gift we could give them -- get them out of harm's way ASAP and insist that the U.S. go back to the UN and have them take over the rebuilding of Iraq (with the US and Britain funding it, because, well, we have to pay for our mess). Get involved with your local peace group—you can find one near where you live by visiting United for Peace, at: http://www.unitedforpeace.org and the Vietnam Veterans Against War: http://www.vvaw.org/contact/. A large demonstration is being planned for March 20, check here for more details: http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=2136. To get a “Bring Them Home Now” bumper sticker or a poster for your yard, go here: http://bringthemhomenow.org/yellowribbon\_graphics/index.html. Also, back only anti-war candidates for Congress and President (Kucinich, Dean, Clark, Sharpton).

I know it feels hopeless. That's how they want us to feel. Don't give up. We owe it to these kids, the troops WE SUPPORT, to get them the hell outta there and back home so they can help organize the drive to remove the war profiteers from office next November.

To all who serve in our armed forces, to their parents and spouses and loved ones, we offer to you the regrets of millions and the promise that we will right this wrong and do whatever we can to thank you for offering to risk your lives for us. That your life was put at risk for Bush's greed is a disgrace and a travesty, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime.

Please be safe, come home soon, and know that our thoughts and prayers are with you during this season when many of us celebrate the birth of the prince of "peace."

Yours,

Michael Moore mmflint@aol.com www.michaelmoore.com

Is that THE Micheal Moore of Roger&Me fame??

Originally posted by The Man Up North If I were American, I'd probably be voting for the Libertarian Party.I can't remember a thing about their political program, but their name sounds cool and it would be nice seeing a third party mix things up at the Congress & White House.P.S. I like Ralph Nader too!P.P.S. Agent Orange is also a Depeche Mode track. :D

Libertarians are supposed to be liberal on social policies and conservative on economic policies, but generally these people tend to be whacked out anarchists. I don't think it is possible for a person to be a libertarian yet like Ralph Nader as well

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 Kerry can't buy a thrill.

Hey with all of his wife's money, I am sure he can buy something

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by The Man Up North> If I were American, I'd probably be voting for the Libertarian Party.> > I can't remember a thing about their political program, but their name sounds cool and it would be nice seeing a third party mix things up at the Congress & White House.> > P.S. I like Ralph Nader too!> > P.P.S. Agent Orange is also a Depeche Mode track. :D

Libertarians are supposed to be liberal on social policies and conservative on economic policies, but generally these people tend to be whacked out anarchists. I don't think it is possible for a person to be a libertarian yet like Ralph Nader as well No wonder I used to be a libertarian. I appreciate their very liberal social policies, but I've more lately decided that the US needs a better social safety net for people. We should be more like more "socialist" countries.

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by The Man Up North> If I were American, I'd probably be voting for the Libertarian Party.> > I can't remember a thing about their political program, but their name sounds cool and it would be nice seeing a third party mix things up at the Congress & White House.> > P.S. I like Ralph Nader too!> > P.P.S. Agent Orange is also a Depeche Mode track. :D

Libertarians are supposed to be liberal on social policies and conservative on economic policies, but generally these people tend to be whacked out anarchists. I don't think it is possible for a person to be a libertarian yet like Ralph Nader as well No wonder I used to be a libertarian. I appreciate their very liberal social policies, but I've more lately decided that the US needs a better social safety net for people. We should be more like more "socialist" countries. I tend not to be sympathetic for the poor, for I generally believe that the poor are poor usually for damn good reasons, but I do believe in greatly improving K-12 education so that every kid will have the opportunity to become great.

Originally posted by twist I use Agent Orange around my house. Its called Round Up. A defoliant is totally different than a blistering agent. The former is used to kill vegetation to expose hidden enemy. The later is used to maim and kill people.Not only did Saddam use mustard gas against Iran he also used VX gas. These weapons were also used against Shiia and Kurd populations in Iraq.Nuclear deterence is totally different. Kurds were not going to gas Iraqi soldiers. Soviets could have nuked the US or Britain. Reminds me, time to play Skinny Puppy's VX Gas Attack.

I'm afraid you miss the point about the west's nukes. NATO always specifically refused to rule out FIRST USE of nuclear weapons. NATO's nukes were as much a deterrence against the CONVENTIONAL soviet threat as the russkie's nuclear weapons.

You also miss the point in the post I was replying to. It didn't mention the gassing of Kurdish civilians, it was talking about the use of chemical weapons _in combat_ against the Iranians. Had it been about the Kurds I wouldn't have objected to it, using WMD's against your own civilians is more of a rarity than using WMDs in war (as the US has itself done).

In any case, just as the US decided it was acceptable to use nuclear weapons against Japan (a decision I'm not saying I definitely disagree with before we go off on a tangent!) the US also thought, at the time, that it was OK for the Iraqis to use chemical weapons against the Iranians.

And careful and selective use of a noxious chemical on a few potted plants is hardly the same as mass spraying of it over large areas of a country.

Originally posted by Grigori > Originally posted by death of art> And where did Iraq get most of its weapons from during the 80s?

from the Soviet Union...after that, the French...

were you asserting that it was the Americans???

Quite true, it did get most of its hardware from the USSR and the French. The US did provide financial help and vital intelligence to aid it in the war with Iran, however. The US's main objective was to keep the war going inconclusively (and so ensure as many deaths as possible on both sides).

In any case the bigger picture is surely that both the US and Europe were responsible for creating the politics of the region in the first place, from controlling those nations post WW1 through to the US overthrowing Mussadeq in Iran (and so indirectly bringing the mad mullahs to power).

Originally posted by twist The RAF bombed at night. USAAF bomb during the day so it could see its targets."You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants, possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in what was the worst single event massacre of all time. ___ Toward the end of World War II, as Allied planes rained death and destruction over Germany, the old Saxon city of Dresden lay like an island of tranquillity amid desolation. Famous as a cultural center and possessing no military value, Dresden had been spared the terror that descended from the skies over the rest of the country.In fact, little had been done to provide the ancient city of artists and craftsmen with anti-aircraft defenses. One squadron of planes had been stationed in Dresden for awhile, but the Luftwaffe decided to move the aircraft to another area where they would be of use. A gentlemen's agreement seemed to prevail, designating Dresden an "open city."February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city. Together with the 600.000 refugees from Breslau, Dresden was filled with nearly 1.2 million people. Churchill had asked for "suggestions how to blaze 600.000 refugees". He wasn't interested how to target military installations 60 miles outside of Dresden. More than 700.000 phosphorus bombs were dropped on 1.2 million people. One bomb for every 2 people. The temperature in the centre of the city reached 1600 o centigrade. More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. Approximately 500.000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.

Yeah, some German dude just wrote a book recently, making a case for the bombing of civilian targets being a war crime. It's all very difficult, as on the one hand I think it probably was a war crime, but sometimes conservative Germans try to use that to make out it was all morally equivalent and to lessen Germany's own war guilt (which is far greater).

It does all rather reduce the West's moral authority to say things like 'targetting civilians is always unacceptable' as Rumsfield or some other yank politician declared in respect to Palestinian suicide bombers. We should at least first admit that we've done the same ourselves, and can hence understand the emotions that drive people to do it. Otherwise it brings to mind the definition of terrorists as 'people who have bombs but don't have an airforce'.

(Oh, and don't forget the USAF's firebombing of Tokyo, an attack with almost no military purpose at all)

Originally posted by 404 error > Originally posted by twist> The RAF bombed at night. USAAF bomb during the day so it could see its targets.> > "You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr > > On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants, possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in what was the worst single event massacre of all time. > > ___ > > Toward the end of World War II, as Allied planes rained death and destruction over Germany, the old Saxon city of Dresden lay like an island of tranquillity amid desolation. Famous as a cultural center and possessing no military value, Dresden had been spared the terror that descended from the skies over the rest of the country.> > In fact, little had been done to provide the ancient city of artists and craftsmen with anti-aircraft defenses. One squadron of planes had been stationed in Dresden for awhile, but the Luftwaffe decided to move the aircraft to another area where they would be of use. A gentlemen's agreement seemed to prevail, designating Dresden an "open city."> > February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city. Together with the 600.000 refugees from Breslau, Dresden was filled with nearly 1.2 million people. Churchill had asked for "suggestions how to blaze 600.000 refugees". He wasn't interested how to target military installations 60 miles outside of Dresden. More than 700.000 phosphorus bombs were dropped on 1.2 million people. One bomb for every 2 people. The temperature in the centre of the city reached 1600 o centigrade. More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. Approximately 500.000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.

Yeah, some German dude just wrote a book recently, making a case for the bombing of civilian targets being a war crime. It's all very difficult, as on the one hand I think it probably was a war crime, but sometimes conservative Germans try to use that to make out it was all morally equivalent and to lessen Germany's own war guilt (which is far greater).

It does all rather reduce the West's moral authority to say things like 'targetting civilians is always unacceptable' as Rumsfield or some other yank politician declared in respect to Palestinian suicide bombers. We should at least first admit that we've done the same ourselves, and can hence understand the emotions that drive people to do it. Otherwise it brings to mind the definition of terrorists as 'people who have bombs but don't have an airforce'.

(Oh, and don't forget the USAF's firebombing of Tokyo, an attack with almost no military purpose at all)

Your caveat of, "almost no military purpose at all." is debatable. The Japanese had decentralized their military production throughout the city of Tokyo. Most of this was carried out in private homes.....which happened to be made of wood.

A great book on strategic bombing in WWII is "Wings of Judgment". It's a fairly balanced (if slighty left leaning) account of what happened at places like Dresden and Tokyo.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid i wish john hinkley would assasinate Bush Jr, give his dead body to the Iraqi people and let them parade his severed head around on a rusty spear. i hate that stupid, beady eyed fuck.

Ah, yes. The tolerance, understanding and love of neighbor that I've come to expect from BLT.

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by The Man Up North> If I were American, I'd probably be voting for the Libertarian Party.> > I can't remember a thing about their political program, but their name sounds cool and it would be nice seeing a third party mix things up at the Congress & White House.> > P.S. I like Ralph Nader too!> > P.P.S. Agent Orange is also a Depeche Mode track. :D

Libertarians are supposed to be liberal on social policies and conservative on economic policies, but generally these people tend to be whacked out anarchists. I don't think it is possible for a person to be a libertarian yet like Ralph Nader as well No wonder I used to be a libertarian. I appreciate their very liberal social policies, but I've more lately decided that the US needs a better social safety net for people. We should be more like more "socialist" countries.

Son, you just added yur name to my Enemas List for the new year. Mr. Ashcroft would like to see you in that there torture chamber.

Sincerely, Dubya

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 > Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope> > > > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol> > Originally posted by The Man Up North> If I were American, I'd probably be voting for the Libertarian Party.> > I can't remember a thing about their political program, but their name sounds cool and it would be nice seeing a third party mix things up at the Congress & White House.> > P.S. I like Ralph Nader too!> > P.P.S. Agent Orange is also a Depeche Mode track. :D

Libertarians are supposed to be liberal on social policies and conservative on economic policies, but generally these people tend to be whacked out anarchists. I don't think it is possible for a person to be a libertarian yet like Ralph Nader as well No wonder I used to be a libertarian. I appreciate their very liberal social policies, but I've more lately decided that the US needs a better social safety net for people. We should be more like more "socialist" countries.

Son, you just added yur name to my Enemas List for the new year. Mr. Ashcroft would like to see you in that there torture chamber.

Sincerely, Dubya bush and enemas?

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by Taboo # 7> > > > Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope> > > > > > > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol> > > > Originally posted by The Man Up North> If I were American, I'd probably be voting for the Libertarian Party.> > I can't remember a thing about their political program, but their name sounds cool and it would be nice seeing a third party mix things up at the Congress & White House.> > P.S. I like Ralph Nader too!> > P.P.S. Agent Orange is also a Depeche Mode track. :D

Libertarians are supposed to be liberal on social policies and conservative on economic policies, but generally these people tend to be whacked out anarchists. I don't think it is possible for a person to be a libertarian yet like Ralph Nader as well No wonder I used to be a libertarian. I appreciate their very liberal social policies, but I've more lately decided that the US needs a better social safety net for people. We should be more like more "socialist" countries.

Son, you just added yur name to my Enemas List for the new year. Mr. Ashcroft would like to see you in that there torture chamber.

Sincerely, Dubya bush and enemas?

Alright, boy, don't dare question my speling, er, spelling. You want on this here list?

Sincerely, Dubya

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by Taboo # 7> > > > Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope> > > > > > > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol> > > > Originally posted by The Man Up North> If I were American, I'd probably be voting for the Libertarian Party.> > I can't remember a thing about their political program, but their name sounds cool and it would be nice seeing a third party mix things up at the Congress & White House.> > P.S. I like Ralph Nader too!> > P.P.S. Agent Orange is also a Depeche Mode track. :D

Libertarians are supposed to be liberal on social policies and conservative on economic policies, but generally these people tend to be whacked out anarchists. I don't think it is possible for a person to be a libertarian yet like Ralph Nader as well No wonder I used to be a libertarian. I appreciate their very liberal social policies, but I've more lately decided that the US needs a better social safety net for people. We should be more like more "socialist" countries.

Son, you just added yur name to my Enemas List for the new year. Mr. Ashcroft would like to see you in that there torture chamber.

Sincerely, Dubya bush and enemas?

Alright, boy, don't dare question my speling, er, spelling. You want on this here list?

Sincerely, Dubya I guess I am a member of the axis of evil now

Originally posted by Michael McDermott > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid> i wish john hinkley would assasinate Bush Jr, give his dead body to the Iraqi people and let them parade his severed head around on a rusty spear. i hate that stupid, beady eyed fuck.

Ah, yes. The tolerance, understanding and love of neighbor that I've come to expect from BLT.

after you get the taste of Reagan's cock out of your mouth, you can start on the Bush men.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid > Originally posted by Michael McDermott> > > > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid> > i wish john hinkley would assasinate Bush Jr, give his dead body to the Iraqi people and let them parade his severed head around on a rusty spear. i hate that stupid, beady eyed fuck.>

Ah, yes. The tolerance, understanding and love of neighbor that I've come to expect from BLT.

after you get the taste of Reagan's cock out of your mouth, you can start on the Bush men. ZING!

Originally posted by Grigori jeez...and I started this thread in jest...when shall I learn???

Dear Mr. Grigori,

I sure do appreciate you all here talking 'bout my little war and all, but here's something to cheer all them there sourpusses that's on my Enemas List up...me getting in touch with my inner Funk Machine

Sincerely, Dubya

That hat on the smiley looks like the Doonesbury one

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol That hat on the smiley looks like the Doonesbury one

Doonesbury? That's in the funnies, but it ain't funny. Not like Ziggy...he-he, that's one goofy little bastard.

Sincerely, Dubya

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol That hat on the smiley looks like the Doonesbury one

Doonesbury? That's in the funnies, but it ain't funny. Not like Ziggy...he-he, that's one goofy little bastard.

Sincerely, Dubya you should lay off the cocaine once in a lil while

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid > Originally posted by Michael McDermott> > > > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid> > i wish john hinkley would assasinate Bush Jr, give his dead body to the Iraqi people and let them parade his severed head around on a rusty spear. i hate that stupid, beady eyed fuck.>

Ah, yes. The tolerance, understanding and love of neighbor that I've come to expect from BLT.

after you get the taste of Reagan's cock out of your mouth, you can start on the Bush men.

Why would I have the taste of one of the Reagan's barnyard fowl in my mouth? And, why would I want to put one of the Bush's barnyard fowl in my mouth?

Really, BLT. The use of vulgarities is the first sign of a losing argument.

Originally posted by 24 Hour Party Person or am I just

The answer is yes. But look what you've done by "stirring the shit," in the parlance of our times.

Grigori,

If you lock down this thread, you restrict the free flow of ideas that has kept Ah-mur-i-ca a democracy for about 200 years..........which means you're purfect for my Cabinent! Get on over here, boy, I'll tell them there security guards to let you on in!

Sincerely, Dubya

Originally posted by Jeff dear dubya...how much does the job pay...I might be interested...and could I use Air Force One to jet off to England on a whim???

As a cabinet member you will receive a complimentary 50 shares of Halliburton

"Whoops, who left this large pile of money out on my office table? How careless of them! Well, I'll leave you alone in here to consider what to do with it while I go do some lines of coke off Cheney's bald plate."

• Me to the UN inspectors who wouldn't say Iraq had weapons of mass destruction :D

Sincerely, Dubya

Originally posted by Jeff okay kids...it's looking like it may be time to lock this one down...I know this is an off topic forum...but please...let's keep it civil...or am I just

Jeff,

You are, of course, right. My use of the phrase "barnyard fowl" was way out line. Heck, it probably violated the Terms of Use agreement.......

Originally posted by Michael McDermott > Originally posted by Jeff> okay kids...it's looking like it may be time to lock this one down...I know this is an off topic forum...but please...let's keep it civil...> > or am I just

Jeff,

You are, of course, right. My use of the phrase "barnyard fowl" was way out line. Heck, it probably violated the Terms of Use agreement.......

I likes you, Mikey, but as per my usual coke binge mid-afternoon, I'm gonna add you to my Enemas List. I'll think of something to charge you with (maybe you cut in line in front of Rummy at the Pentagon chow line, I don't know). Anyway, that's the way it goes.

Sincerely, Dubya

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 > Originally posted by Michael McDermott> > > > Originally posted by Jeff> > okay kids...it's looking like it may be time to lock this one down...I know this is an off topic forum...but please...let's keep it civil...> > > > or am I just >

Jeff,

You are, of course, right. My use of the phrase "barnyard fowl" was way out line. Heck, it probably violated the Terms of Use agreement.......

I likes you, Mikey, but as per my usual coke binge mid-afternoon, I'm gonna add you to my Enemas List. I'll think of something to charge you with (maybe you cut in line in front of Rummy at the Pentagon chow line, I don't know). Anyway, that's the way it goes.

Sincerely, Dubya

Drat! And I just put my contribution to the RNC in the mail (actually I did)......

Well, you know what P.T. Barnum said.

Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr Well, you know what P.T. Barnum said.

Yeah, he was referencing Dean supporters! :D