spanish bombing

what do you reckon we do now

Paint.

Fucking tragic ain't it.

well being a big real madrid fan it appalls me to see this happen in a city that i love. saying that it would appall me to see it happen anywhere and for whatever reason. A loaded gun wont set u free,so they say. prophetic words indeed.

Very sad shock to wake up to that terrible news this morning, my sympathies to those who perished in this cowardly act. It must've been extremely tough for the Spanish teams in the UEFA Cup today.....:(

Its getting out of hand now,the civilised world needs to stand up & fight back. Time to stop taking this off animals that hide in fuckin caves.

I have The Clashes "Spanish Bombs" stuck in my head. I hope they find the bastards that did this and punish they accordingly.

twist<-------wondering if some distant, distant Basque relative was responsible for this crime

Originally posted by steve52 Its getting out of hand now,the civilised world needs to stand up & fight back. Time to stop taking this off animals that hide in fuckin caves.

you cant "finish off" any terrorist orginisation anywhere in the world by use of force. its simply impossible. violence breeds violence.

you can have the biggest concentration of any army per head of population in the world (northern ireland during "the troubles") given power to do what they want if they sniff youre up to something, give them the best most sophisticated equipment available, and terrorists will still operate (n. ireland again)

noone ever "finished off" the ira, or the uda / uff for that matter. its impossible to do. likewise with eta or the islamics.

the only way to stop (or reduce) the happenings like yesterday is to listen to peoples grievances, find out why somebody (a human) ended up becoming a mass murderer (a sub human act). then set about talking and engaging them on an appropiate level.

remember that the greatest recruitment drive for terrorists up north was internment and the british government "getting tough" on terrorism. the end( or at least considerable reduction in deaths) of that war came with sensible talking.

i fear that governments "getting tough" on terrorists will just result in more state sponsored terror, and even more tragic days like yester.

ETA were formed in 1959 as a means of opposing Franco and gaining an indepent Basque state. ETA terrorism was at its highest in the post Franco period, which was part of the reason there was an attempted coup in 1981.

An interesting point is that in the mid 1980's, the Spainsh government created a Terrorist group the grupos antiterroristas de liberacion, or Anti Terrorist Liberation groups (or GAL) to fight ETA. These groups largely made up by Frech gangsters, attacked Basque refugees in the French Basque Country where their shelter was. This sponsoring of terorrism gave ETA a seriously large amount of legitmacy in the eyes of many.

Originally posted by steve52 Its getting out of hand now,the civilised world needs to stand up & fight back. Time to stop taking this off animals that hide in fuckin caves.

Sounds like a Hitler speach.

Sad to note the chanting from more than just a few of the Barcelona fans during last nights minutes silence at Parkhead. We're just ten rows from the travelling support and there was a helluva lot of noise. Mind you, wasn't that long ago that a fair few of our own "diehards" were shouting during the minutes silence for Omagh.

The whole "terrorist" thing losts its appeal after 9/11. Before then, I could sympathize more with the Basques, or the Irish Republican Army, just any group that felt its rights had been oppressed. But now I'm a bit less receptive to the reasons behind an attack, especially when innocent bystanders are the victims. You got a grievance with the government, go shoot up someone from the government (or perhaps take a nonviolent approach if you can. It worked for Gandhi). Don't drag innocent people into it.

I heard "Revolution" on the radio yesterday, thought that was apropos to the situation. I just hope one day I can explain to my children why "terrorist" isn't a word they recognize.

I don't know, these attacks look strange. They don't look like the usual ETA attacks. And neither that much like the Islamic attacks, though it seems more likely. They also happen so next to the elections, and of course everyone knows when these things happen, the voters get scared and are going to vote the most centrefield they can, ie the government. What they really recall to me are the attacks which happened in Italy from the end of the 60s to the start of the 80s, when bombs exploded in banks, railway stations and trains. Very few people were convicted because of those attacks, the authors of some are still unknown. They blamed everyone: communists, anarchists and fascists. What seems more likely now is they were the obscure work of an alliance of a wing of the secret services with a wing of the army and some right-wing small circles. They were scared of the communists being so strong and simply wanted to balance to the centre. It was called fright-strategy. We're not sure even now if this is the truth, maybe we'll never be. I'm just confused, I'm not saying I can tell the truth, it's just that maybe it's not so simple understanding what really happened yesterday. Terrorism must be fought anyway. In the 70s we had communist terrorists and they even kidnapped the prime minister (though he wanted to include the communists in the government and there's a theory he was kidnapped by fake terrorists to prevent that from happening). The government never accepted any of the requests of the terrorists, and they eventually killed the prime minister. But it was the beginning of the end for them. They understood they weren't going to get anything with terror, they found all the people against them and they split in a lot of groups. Many of them were found and are in prison.

Yesterday was exactly 911 days since September 11th 2001.

The next major world-shaking Al Qaida attack will take place 311 days from yesterday, on January 6th 2005. The dates have immense significance, Bin Laden is trying to change what people hold as values.

Originally posted by nearly there the only way to stop (or reduce) the happenings like yesterday is to listen to peoples grievances, find out why somebody (a human) ended up becoming a mass murderer (a sub human act). then set about talking and engaging them on an appropiate level.

*Yeah, forgot about this: sometimes it's just not possible. If the terrorists want to make, (for example), London capital of the new European fundamentalist Islam empire, you just can't do anything else than fighting them.

I stand by what i said,like it or not the truth is the intelligence agencies know who & where 99% of terrorists are (with exception to bin Laden). They should send in SAS or similar & just fuckin kill them all-yeah violence DOES lead to more violence,but we`re not the ones killin innocent people-The IRA have murdered fuckin hundreds & they let the bloody bastards join parliment? its a joke. Im not racist or nationalist,but its hard to sympathise with these people.

Oh,and the reason people like The Real IRA have stopped bombing is cos,if you remember the speech Bush gave after 9/11 he said the war on terrorism WOULDNT stop in afghanastan-it would go right round the world. If he can have bin Laden & Saddam on the run,every other terrorist know its over.

Originally posted by steve52 Oh,and the reason people like The Real IRA have stopped bombing is cos,if you remember the speech Bush gave after 9/11 he said the war on terrorism WOULDNT stop in afghanastan-it would go right round the world. If he can have bin Laden & Saddam on the run,every other terrorist know its over.

I realize it may not be correct to suggest this, but the "War on Terror" would be a perpetually losing struggle (at least on our parts) if we were to go after EVERY SINGLE TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. There are so many, and the way they get recruits is by being publically targeted (you can't buy publicity like "War on Terror" if you want to demonstrate that a group has some sway). I personally think we should've stopped at Afghanistan in order to make sure it could exist as a free democracy rather than beating the war drum again so soon.

And yes, Mike McDermott, I acknowledge that Saddam Hussein was a threat to our interests in the Middle East...but he didn't have what we accused him of having. Bush lied, and that's a fact. This administration is heavy on the rhetoric, but I doubt they respect democracy half as much as they claim.

The very definition of a "terrorist" is an iffy proposal, nevermind Bush's hyperbole. After all, wouldn't the colonists who overthrew the Brits in America 200 years ago qualify as "terrorists", in that they used unconventional warfare? I'm not saying that there's such a thing as a "good" terrorist group, but it would certainly behoove us to try and get inside their heads and learn WHY they do this and perhaps learn ways to help PREVENT it from happening again. Not necessarily address every grievance (after all, the main Islamic extremist complaint is against Western ways invading their culture, which is unavoidable in our connected age. Sorry, get over it, quit flying fucking planes into buildings because you can't handle it.), but try at least to cut off the source of terrorism (the anger and frustration brought about by whatever it is that's affecting them adversely).

Originally posted by steve52 I stand by what i said,like it or not the truth is the intelligence agencies know who & where 99% of terrorists are (with exception to bin Laden).

this isn't necessarily true. the reason terrorism is so effective is because of the use of 'cells,' in which several people work together to orchestrate an attack. only one person in the group receives the orders 'from above' and the other members of the cell sometimes don't even know who is receiving the orders. they're simply sent info. on where and when to meet and they go from there, no questions asked. so, if and when members of the cell are caught, even under the most intense interrogation they are unable to reveal the brains behind the operation.

the SAS and other special forces may be useful in infiltrating larger terrorist training camps, but terrorists aren't stupid--they simply convert into smaller, more evasive cells in order to carry out their missions. even al-qaeda is more of an ideological and financial umbrella organization than a single terrorist unit. many of the groups working on behalf of the al-qaeda name actually predate al-qaeda by years.

Its these "people up above" im on about,if they were dealt with then hopefully the little people that follow them would fade out-i know its impossible but its just hope really isnt it? no decent human being could ever want another Madrid,9/11 or Lockerbie do they? Thursdays outrage is no less horrific than what happened in New York. 1 life or 3000 lives its still a tragedy that innocent people die for nothing. If it was ETA then they do things for their so called political beliefs,which is only a thin excuse for murder. where as al-Qieda will never gain anything,which they already know. They just seem intent on destroying the world.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Green It must've been extremely tough for the Spanish teams in the UEFA Cup today.....:(

Noble sentiments, but I'm not sure your thoughts were necessarily shared by all supporters in the Barcelona camp last night. Read further down the report here. They're worlds apart - Barcelona and Madrid.

The weird thing is that I tend to alternate between idealism and cynicism, I was just hoping some of that could have been put aside for awhile. Human nature being what it is, there really is nothing new under the sun. *sigh* Thanks for sharing that, don't think I would've found it otherwise.

my point. if the british army came into your house, trashed it, and took your brother / father away without grounds or reason, would you (a reasonable human) be more or less likely to go and join the ira?

if the us army supported your puppet dictator, causing you and those around you untold suffering, theen to decide to get rid of the said dictator with daisy cutters (and other precision weapons) , would you be more or less likely to join in a "holy war" against the west?

i dont support any terrorist group (and that includes the governmental terrorists in the army). all im saying here is that there is a reason why human beings end up doing things like this.

would someone, brought up with clean water, and food , and a non religious, broad minded education end up in al qaeda? - i dont think so. is the reason that they dont get these basic human rights easily looked after (taking into account the cost of the "war on terror") - i think it is!

of course some (a tiny tiny section of society - ie mr shipman and the like) are predisposed to mindless acts of murder - and against these people, society must be protected.

in northern ireland (the closest example of such terrorism to me - mearly 90 miles away), the british army could listen to your conversations in your front room, went about a "dirty war" with the ira, brought in the sas - the works. nothing was spared from a security point of view - and that war only ended when they engaged with all sides. if they hadnt, there would be a lot more people dead(theres still beatings and killings, but they have scaled back big time).

im not going to be patronising to people in the middle east, or the north of ireland, or anywhere, all ill say is that youll never stop terrorism by reacting to it with "the sun" as your vanguard. it hasnt worked!

the war on terror hasnt worked, it isnt working, look at your tv, there is just more people dead - in america, in bali , in madrid , in afghanistan , in iraq, where next? the holy terrorists have divided and polarised the world - us and them - the islamics and the infadels. the governments have polarised the world - us and them - the civilised world and the cavemen. divide and rule - the one language that bin laden, bush and co understand.

as an aside, i doubt it was eta, i wouldnt be surprised if that comes out after the spannish election. a splinter group maybe? or proberbally an islamic group - it looks like them.

Originally posted by nearly there if the british army came into your house, trashed it, and took your brother / father away without grounds or reason, would you (a reasonable human) be more or less likely to go and join the ira?

*Not if it involved killing innocents. I can understand and even have sympathy for guerilla groups fighting the army, the police and the government. But never touch the people! I have great respect for Marcos in Chapas, Mexico, of the EZLN, National Zapatist Liberation Army. They don't even usually attack, just defend when the army or the fascist gangs sent by major country owners attack the people. And our partisans, including my relatives, attacked the Nazis and the fascists, but they never touched the people from which they actually received help. That's the way, if you attack people you're just gonna be an isolated criminal group.

the war on terror hasnt worked

*While I think a war like the one in Iraq is useful only to get oil at cheap price I don't think there's anything to do other than fighting terror. But attacking Iraq or other countries has very little to do with it, by fighting terror I mean preventing attacks and catch terorrists when you really know where they are. The only exception was Afghanistan because it was absolutely obvious the Talibans were terrorists. But the rest is a mistake. Now I hear they want an embargo against Sirya. That's madness. You see, that's what Bin Laden wants. Not destroying the world, but causing the USA to react so much they piss off every single Islamic country, so fanatics take the power and make a fundamentalist alliance from Morocco to Pakistan. THEN we'll be in trouble.