spanish bombing

Originally posted by Mick Aneworderfan You see, that's what Bin Laden wants. Not destroying the world, but causing the USA to react so much they piss off every single Islamic country, so fanatics take the power and make a fundamentalist alliance from Morocco to Pakistan. THEN we'll be in trouble.

indeed it is. divide and rule.

id say there are an awful lot of people in iraq who are joining terror groups as we speak as a result od the oil war too. really tragic. its a pity this cant end

as i said, theres a big difference between hunting down terrorists around "the western world" - and spending billions on incoherantely zapping innocent civilians. one is part of a means to an end, the other is just completing the circle.

Hi from Madrid... I just wanted to say how I appreciate posts such as this. These are being terrible days in the city. Waking up with those bombs was a horrible thing. Some of my friends saved their lives because that day there was at strike at University. It's being really difficult to contact people in here, as the lines are collapsed most of the time. I won't "rest" until Monday, when I just hope to see many friends and not to hear bad news... This is been so huge that you cannot stay away from it, a friend of my brother lost her best friend. I know so many people who've lost a loved one... They've killed babies, kids, students, pregnant women, normal people who just were going to work to earn their living... I just can't understand. And the worst of all is that we don't know who it was. It could be ETA, or Al Qaida, or maybe the two of them together. The goverment say they're working on that, we really need to know. And there's nothing we can do. As you walk past the streets you can see flags with black laces hanging from almost every window... I even painted a black lace to place in mine. Yesterday I went with my family to the city's demonstration. There we were over 2 millions of people. It was an amazing sight, as it was pouring rain. So thank you again for all your words which make us feel less alone. Bye from a really sad city :(

Terrorism in not necesarrily caused by peoples grievances.

In Northern Ireland, it was inevitable the the political system would collapse. 50 years of Unionist misrule, and irredentist neighbour, economic stagnation, and two groups of people who really didnt (and still dont like each other). Three things that are forgotten about the conflict in Northern Ireland:

1- The troubles were not started by the IRA. No, in the late 1960's the IRA was at best, inactive. The first incident of the troubles was committed by the UVF in 1966.

2- It was not the British government that intially who caused people to join the IRA. In derry, the city where the troubles effectively started, and the spiritual home of the Civil Rights movement, there was also a massive constitutional, non violent nationalist movement, which eventually formed the SDLP. Rather, it was the likes of Paisley, with their counter protests, the UWC general strike, and the Protestant Defence Associations (which merged into the UDA in 1972) which carried out attacks against Catholics which caused people to join the IRA.

3- When British troops arrived in 1969, they were welcomed by the Catholic community, who thought they would defend them from Protestant attacks. If you read the book 'Brits' by Peter Taylor, you will find accounts of British soldiors being welcomed into homes of Catholics in Northern Ireland. It was not until Internment was introduced and the troubles threatened to descend into all out civil war that relations between the army and catholics fractured.

Also, Terrorism is not caused by peoples grievances alone. It sometimes is, but the big question is, are those grievances genuine?

Take Israel/Palestine for example. Both sides have engaged in terrorism, (or at least what i consider to be terrorism) yet Israel has, in the last 11 years, offered peace and a Palestinian state. Each time this offer has been rejected and seen more Palestinian terrorism. Israel has a right to exist and defend itself. Yasser Arafat is worth an estimated $300 million dollars. His wife and daughter live in luxury in Paris. Yet the people who he claims to lead live in Poverty and Squalor. Why? Because to end the conflict Yasser Arafat would end himself.

Its the same in Northern Ireland, who runs the paramilitaries? People involved in drugs, crime syndicates etc etc. Thats how it is funded. The war in Northern Ireland is over. But the terror groups remain active because a few people are making a hell of a lot of money out of it.

indeed both the republican and unionist terrorists in n.i are more drug runners and extorsionists now than ideological terrorists - most of the beatings and killings that go on are related to that. thats the real reason the ira wont disband now - they are the biggest crime gang this side of the irish sea.

some terrorist groups have explicit political aims (eta, ira) others dont (al queda). i dont think you will ever end a terrorist group by conceding everything to them (see ira - in the case of a "united ireland" i think they would still exist as a crime gang, either formally or informally).

the issue here is much more subtle than "giving in" to terrorists (thats no way forward), but looking into why people join these groups , or are sympatethic in the first place.

this is generally related to ignorance or poverty, or (nearly alyaws) both.

there isnt a country in the world without zealots - be they US soldiers on the new "crusade" (bush's words) in the middle east, to rid the world of evil - or islamic suicide bombers flying jets into buildings packed with public service workers and bombing nightclubs. the question is : why do these people find (a varying level of) justification (religious or otherwise) for the killing they do? while others just go to church or dont eat certain foods?

the answer of course , is lack of education and opportunities - due to poverty. both groups got the shit end of the stick in their respective countries, and if we fixed that, there would be a lot less of them strapping explosives onto themselves or dropping megatonne bombs.

the power players on both sides need prople to fight their wars - a war that serves their intrest. millioniare scum like bin laden and bush wont be on the front lines for either side, but gross ignorance will be.

the victims of this terrible violence are everywhere.

as i said i dont think you will ever end a terrorist group by conceding everything to them , but you will by starving them of new recruits.

this "war on terror" is doing the exact opposite. Im afriad this horror in madrid wont be the last

No,Because all terrorist groups have politcal aims. You say al-qeada dont, but the two goals fo al qaeda are the destruction of the state of Israel and the removal of US troops from Saudi Arabia and other islamic countries.

All terrorist groups are inherently political, no matter where they are from, or how they are structured, or what there goals are. Politics is what differentiates terrorist activity from criminal activity.

And the main reasons why people join terorrist groups:

1- Hatred 2- The desire to achieve, be it power, money, ego... 3- Propaganda and Brainwashing.

As far as Al qaeda et al are concerend, 1 and 3 are most relevant. Islamic terorrist groups are masters of propaganda, and it works on a global scale. Take the Israeli policy of house destruction. Those who houses are going to be demolished are given 24 hours notice. You see on the tv a picture of a woman crying holding her child. Yet Hamas gives those Palestinians whose houses have been demolished more money to get a better house. However, People see this, and Israel is a human rights violator (when in fact it has one of the best human rights records on the planet) and the Palestinians are being subject to "ethnic cleansing."

The best example is the teenage suicide bombers. Does a 12 year old girl have the capacity to decide to blow herself up and become a martyr? Of course not. But her elders will get her to do that. Why? the propaganda war. In these days, and thr Iraq war proved this, winning the media war is essential.

And on the second reason, lets not forget that before he was disposed Saddam Hussein gave $25000 cash to the family of any suicide bomber who killed jews. (Note: Not Israelis, Jews).

Originally posted by Uncle Liam And the main reasons why people join terorrist groups:1- Hatred2- The desire to achieve, be it power, money, ego...3- Propaganda and Brainwashing.As far as Al qaeda et al are concerend, 1 and 3 are most relevant. Islamic terorrist groups are masters of propaganda, and it works on a global scale. Take the Israeli policy of house destruction. Those who houses are going to be demolished are given 24 hours notice. You see on the tv a picture of a woman crying holding her child. Yet Hamas gives those Palestinians whose houses have been demolished more money to get a better house. However, People see this, and Israel is a human rights violator (when in fact it has one of the best human rights records on the planet) and the Palestinians are being subject to "ethnic cleansing." The best example is the teenage suicide bombers. Does a 12 year old girl have the capacity to decide to blow herself up and become a martyr? Of course not. But her elders will get her to do that. Why? the propaganda war. In these days, and thr Iraq war proved this, winning the media war is essential. And on the second reason, lets not forget that before he was disposed Saddam Hussein gave $25000 cash to the family of any suicide bomber who killed jews. (Note: Not Israelis, Jews).

Originally posted by Uncle Liam No,Because all terrorist groups have politcal aims. You say al-qeada dont, but the two goals fo al qaeda are the destruction of the state of Israel and the removal of US troops from Saudi Arabia and other islamic countries.All terrorist groups are inherently political, no matter where they are from, or how they are structured, or what there goals are. Politics is what differentiates terrorist activity from criminal activity.And the main reasons why people join terorrist groups:1- Hatred2- The desire to achieve, be it power, money, ego...3- Propaganda and Brainwashing.As far as Al qaeda et al are concerend, 1 and 3 are most relevant. Islamic terorrist groups are masters of propaganda, and it works on a global scale. Take the Israeli policy of house destruction. Those who houses are going to be demolished are given 24 hours notice. You see on the tv a picture of a woman crying holding her child. Yet Hamas gives those Palestinians whose houses have been demolished more money to get a better house. However, People see this, and Israel is a human rights violator (when in fact it has one of the best human rights records on the planet) and the Palestinians are being subject to "ethnic cleansing." The best example is the teenage suicide bombers. Does a 12 year old girl have the capacity to decide to blow herself up and become a martyr? Of course not. But her elders will get her to do that. Why? the propaganda war. In these days, and thr Iraq war proved this, winning the media war is essential. And on the second reason, lets not forget that before he was disposed Saddam Hussein gave $25000 cash to the family of any suicide bomber who killed jews. (Note: Not Israelis, Jews).

i said al qaeda diddnt have EXPLICIT political aims. the bringing down of the israeli state or annihilation of western culture is an ideological aim - not a political aim. you wont deal with the issue of ending the state against popular concensus within state structures - its absurd! the ira on the other hand demanded a withdrawl of british rule from a terrartory and constitutional amendments in the republic and in the union.

your assertion that "Politics is what differentiates terrorist activity from criminal activity" is just wrong. a terrorist act may be political (most obvious example - the brighton bomb) or may be non political (mos obvious example - the washington sniper). terrorist activity is always criminal. terrorist activity generally has an ideological aim and social context (killing a judge)- criminal activiy is motivated out of individiual profit (eg robbing a bank).

poeple do not join terrorist groups out of "The desire to achieve, be it power, money, ego..." - they become criminals! noone joins al qaeda with aspirations of a life on the costa del crime.

hatred is an emotion. whatt you should be looking for here is what is behind the hatred. is it seeing your mothers head chopped off by the usaf, or your brother being kicked to death by the ruc? - or is it just plain evil - the work of the devil. id say the former,there is a social context to most hatred - certainly the kind that makes you strap a set of bombs onto your 12 year old daughter, or carry out the most disgusting sub human acts of thursday last.

brainwashing and propaganda certainly plays a part in the formation of the terrorist mind. as i said in my previous post , those in the most desperate social circumstances , with limited formal or informal education are most likely to be taken in by propaganda - be it bin ladens incoherant bullshit, or sky news supporting "our boys" as they go about willful pre-meditated murder!

"Islamic terorrist groups are masters of propaganda, and it works on a global scale" - i dont know how you square up a few tapes of osama and co qouting the koran and 24/7 news conditioning, government spin doctoring. i suspect that you suspect those who talk about human rights and shit as secret islamic propagandaists. i despise the state of isreal as much as i can any state, but not for one moment do i see yasser arafat or hamas as being anything but lowlife scum. i presume if your local council gave you 14 hours to leave your community that youd be greatful because the local band of terrorists and suicude bombers could buy you a new, better one!

to say that israel has one of the best human rights records around is pure and total horse shit. ill leave that argument to human rights watch, if your not happy , then ill repost with un statistics and amnesty intl: figures.human rights watch .

saddam husssein is a horrible mass murderer - and most proberbally an anti semite (although i never heard those claims you make about him paing off jew killers, and find it highly unlikely). i detest saddam hussein as much as the next state mass murderer - tony - josef - mao - ariel - george- adolf - that list runs and runs.

the way you see "winning the media war" in the west, as a solution to palestinian paernts wrapping their kids in explosives is pure twisted dillusion. im sorry liam, fellow new order fan, but it seems as if the bullshit and propaganda has won the media war in your head.

i dont think what i say is infallable- just that the simplistic, moronic atitude of kill the bad guy, win the war belongs in 1916. time to think, time to reason, or the gut wrenching images of madrid will be beamed accross the world in another 6 months from another city.

george bush doesnt fly united. jose maria azanar doesnt use the metro, tony blair doesnt use the underground. osama bin laden doesnt strap bombs onto his chest.

we are the potential victims.

the kids in the west bank are dead, so are the israeli schoolchildern blown up on the bus, so are the iraqis - killed by indiscriminate leaders backed by us, killed by wars designed by us to replace indiscriminate leaders with another set.

the imigrant workers of madrid, the students, the train drivers, the people that make society beautiful are dead in madrid.

if uncle liam has his tuppence in this debate, they wont be the last

well taboo has raised an interesting subject as to "why do they do this"?. if u listen to the rehtoric of al queda (what a shite name for a terror org) dont even know if i spelt it right. ite because of the continued oppresion of the masses ect in islamic countries ect,via western govs ie:g7. hence they are the main targets,now im not going to argue the whyfores ect on this issue but surley to god if you wanted to hurt any gov in the g7 why would you kill innocent people. every state in the g7 does tht every day in one form or another and although politicians stand up in front of cameras and spout words of indignation,they as a ehole couldnt give a shit. the political wheels will turn and it will be forgotten in time(i dont mean to belitlle what has happened in madrid ) but we have seen it all before. which leads me to think that it is more about power and money than any noble cause on either side. lets asume that bin laden gets his way ,would things be better for any of us,i doubt it. hes no better than bush or blair ,hes just got more of a sense of the dramatic,ie the attacks they have commited. i admire the people of spain for there defiant peacfull protests this weekend to end violence in this form. i just hope and pray someone will listen.

I fail to see how the Washington Sniper is terrorism, thats the same as saying Harold Shipman, Ian Brady, Myra Hindley are all terrorists.

Israel DOES have one of the best human rights records in the world. In 2002, the Israeli government admitted htat it used "excessive force" in destroying the camp. Palestinians claimed that israel had "massacred" 3000 citiizens. the UN found that 52 palestinians had been killed, over 40 of whom were armed combatants.

As for Israels human rights record.

1- Israel is the only state in the middle east that operates under the rule of law. 2- Israel has set aside a significant proportion of its medical resources to fighting terrorism. Israeli hospitals treat casualties from both sides. 3- The Israeli supreme court has repeateldy overuled the army and government and made them operate under the rule of law. It has protected the rights of the Palestinians, non combatants, POW's and others, often at the risk to Israeli civilians. Also, the Israeli supreme court has been the only court to directly address the issue of applying physical pressure (nonlethal torture) to captured terrorists in an effort to secure information to prevent further terrorist attacks. Despite this action could save lives, it has prohibited its use.

Yes, Israel has made mistakes and overreacted to terrorism and other threats, But compared to human rights in North Korea, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Zimbabwe, China, Pakistan, etc etc. And lets not forget the Palestinian record on human rights, which is FAR worse than israels.

Israel has a good human rights record, HA! http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-isr/index

Spain was awfully quick to blame the ETA, when the smoke hadn't even cleared yet. The ETA did step up their terror campaign recently. While I don't agree with terrorism, a good argument can be made that Spain has none but itself to blame for the ETA. The Basques have no democratic avenues to achieve the Basque nation they aspire to. Spain calls itself a democracy, but the only Basque nationalist party has been banned, because of ETA terrorism. Article 2 of the Spanish Constitution states "The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards, and recognizes the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions which make it up and the solidarity among all of them." Ludicrous to call the Basques "Spaniards," but given the unconstitutionalality of creating a basque nation, and the fact that the Basque nationalists have been banned from the democratic process, what avenues for achieving independence are left to them?

However, it doesn't appear likely that this act was the work of ETA. More likely Al Quaeda, or even elements within the State, given the proximity of the bombings to the national election.

The reason Spain blamed ETA so quickly was likely to have drawn attention away from Spains involvement in Iraq. If Aznar had came out and said ti was al-qaeda, then it would have seriously damaged Partido Populars election chances. This is why, i think, Spain is not yet absolving ETA of blame.

It's awfully hard in the post-9/11 world to justify terrorist groups existing the world over, but what often gets lost is the very fact that in some cases (not ALL, though) there is a legitimate complaint being raised by the groups involved. The American colonists who broke into Boston Harbor and dumped all that tea were doing so because their rights were suddenly being violated by the British overlords after a century of disinterest and self-rule. They were just as much "terrorists" in their own era (especially in the eyes of the Brits) as al Qaeda is in our. The difference being, off course, that we laud such "terrorists" as Ben Franklin, George Washington, and so on as "founding fathers".

Now, in regards to Madrid, I don't think this applies. When you target innocent civilians, who had nothing to do with whatever cause you're trying to promote, then you cross a line that seperates the "terrorists" of early America from the "terrorists" who fling themselves with bombs attached underneath Israeli buses and the like. Even the French Resistance occasionally went after civilians who collaberated with the Germans during WWII, but their main objective was honorable. In some ways, it's hard to fault the reasons behind some actions (but not the actions themselves). The Palestinians did have their land taken from them, but the Jews have some rights to the land as well. Without getting into the specifics and truly infuriating mind games on each side for justification for whatever, you have to admit the situation was a bad one from the get-go.

Where am I going with all this? Am I trying to excuse the Madrid bombing? Not by a long shot: no matter how noble your aims may be (if al Qaeda did this, that doesn't apply, but anyway), the minute you use innocents to make your point is the minute you lose any chance of being heard. Madrid was unnecassary and cruel, just as 9/11 and all the suicide bombings. I wish someone would finally ask the question "If our God requires us to kill, is He worth worshipping?" There doesn't seem to be a lot of questioning going on anymore, on the Muslim side of the aisle. Maybe it's good to have a little atheism once in a while, you know? A lot of people wouldn't have anything to kill for anymore, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Uncle Liam I fail to see how the Washington Sniper is terrorism, thats the same as saying Harold Shipman, Ian Brady, Myra Hindley are all terrorists.Israel DOES have one of the best human rights records in the world. In 2002, the Israeli government admitted htat it used "excessive force" in destroying the camp. Palestinians claimed that israel had "massacred" 3000 citiizens. the UN found that 52 palestinians had been killed, over 40 of whom were armed combatants. As for Israels human rights record. 1- Israel is the only state in the middle east that operates under the rule of law. 2- Israel has set aside a significant proportion of its medical resources to fighting terrorism. Israeli hospitals treat casualties from both sides. 3- The Israeli supreme court has repeateldy overuled the army and government and made them operate under the rule of law. It has protected the rights of the Palestinians, non combatants, POW's and others, often at the risk to Israeli civilians. Also, the Israeli supreme court has been the only court to directly address the issue of applying physical pressure (nonlethal torture) to captured terrorists in an effort to secure information to prevent further terrorist attacks. Despite this action could save lives, it has prohibited its use. Yes, Israel has made mistakes and overreacted to terrorism and other threats, But compared to human rights in North Korea, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Zimbabwe, China, Pakistan, etc etc. And lets not forget the Palestinian record on human rights, which is FAR worse than israels.

would you say that the people of washington were terrorised for the few weeks that guy was lurking around? i know i sure as hell wouldnt like to go fill my car up with "gas" or go to crusty burger, or whatever constitutes everyday life in washington (im a little ignorant of that, but im sure it doesnt involve getting shot!). thats terrorism.

as for israels human rights record, ill just say this - their prime minister is a war criminal, and any defence of a nations human rights record that relies on comparisons to kim in north korea is a tad fucked up.

i have an equal problem with all the other states you mention.

(note - you brought israel into this thread u.liam!) its funny you should mention israel here - to my mind the perfect example of a state that has "got tough" on terrorism. as a direct result, there is no shortage of suicide bombers. maybe if those billions and billions and billions and billions of israeli state moneys and US tax dollars was speant on giving everyone a decent shot at life in the middle east, israel and the "occupied terroatories", a home not paid for by hamas, and a secular education, then both the western and mid eastern world would be a better place.

Originally posted by Spotnick Hum, Al-Quaida now officially claimed them on video tape...And don't get me wrong, but it's done AGAIN on the 11th of a month... 3-11Exactly 2 years and a half after the WTC

As I said earlier, exactly 911 days after 9/11.

Originally posted by Uncle Liam The reason Spain blamed ETA so quickly was likely to have drawn attention away from Spains involvement in Iraq. If Aznar had came out and said ti was al-qaeda, then it would have seriously damaged Partido Populars election chances. This is why, i think, Spain is not yet absolving ETA of blame.

No. Spain blamed ETA initially as this was two days before the national elections, and it was likely that ETA would make some kind of statement as they have before other elections, regardless of which political party stood to benefit. Nobody wanted to believe it was Al-Qaida, nobody wants to believe that they are that close. The blaming of ETA wasn't about diverting attention from Spain's involvement in the Iraq war. It's not about Iraq either, it is about countries in which Muslims and Christians live in apparent harmony. Al-Qaida do not want harmony, they want a perpetual struggle. Look at other countries who have suffered at their hands, Turkey, Indonesia, Kenya - the mould fits. Look around you to see where is next.

Congratulations to the Spanish people for getting rid of the right-wing liars and choosing the socialists! The rest of Europe will hopefully follow in June...

Originally posted by Mick Aneworderfan Congratulations to the Spanish people for getting rid of the right-wing liars and choosing the socialists! The rest of Europe will hopefully follow in June...

And you can say this on a New Order site ?

Originally posted by Uncle Liam The reason Spain blamed ETA so quickly was likely to have drawn attention away from Spains involvement in Iraq. If Aznar had came out and said ti was al-qaeda, then it would have seriously damaged Partido Populars election chances. This is why, i think, Spain is not yet absolving ETA of blame.

And in the end it did end up damaging them (Not like Mariano Rajoy had any chance, that guy has the personality of a sponge)...

Still... a shame to bring politics to such a tragedy

Originally posted by Detweiler And you can say this on a New Order site?

1 This is the off topic forum 2 If we talk about American politics, we can talk about European politics too, and it's already happened, in the thread about Australian poor people and others. If anyone can say "vote Nader", I can say "well done for voting the PSOE, now Europe please follow" (we have European elections in June) 3 This thread is about Spain, and yesterday there were elections in Spain 4 Those elections sent home a party which lied blaming the ETA (and then proved wrong) when they still knew fuck all about the authors of the bombings only because if it turned out they were the Islamic fanatics they'd have lost a load of votes, like afterwards fairly happened in fact 5 I'm happy the socialists won, but of course if someone isn't they can say it too. We can disagree, but we've the right to express ourselves (and disagreeing doesn't mean we aren't still part of the same New Order brotherhood, I've got plenty of friends who disagree with me on politics), this is the great thing of this forum and the main difference to any other. 6 I also find really interesting reading other political opinions from other countries: America, Argentina, England etc. it doesn't matter if they agree with me or not, it's just interesting because I can usually discuss politics only with Italians. This doesn't mean we have to talk about politics all the time, but, just as it already is, it's good to talk about the most important things sometimes: Kerry, the Spanish bombs, the poverty in Western countries (and you're contributing too, of course you can choose to say if you support one side or the other)... also, if others aren't interested can choose to not open the threads...

I love it when irony is wasted on people ! Now you've got all hot and bothered under the collar when you've completely missed the tongue-in-cheek nod to various allegations of New Order having right-wing sympathies over the years. We'll have to start calling you Clockwork Mick to differentiate you to Digital Mike, you are so easy to wind up !

sorry man, it's just your reply was so similar to what Warren of Ceremony would have written me, seriously... if you were joking it's alright then, sorry if I didn't get it...

As for being easy to wind up, you know, I'm Mediterranean, we're easy to get hot in discussions and in sex (especially)

Clockwork Mick... Mick The Gab... all cool nicks, must think about them...

Originally posted by Mick Aneworderfan Congratulations to the Spanish people for getting rid of the right-wing liars and choosing the socialists! The rest of Europe will hopefully follow in June...

So the socialists aren't going to be liars too? All politicians are liars - it goes with the territory, particularly the kind of career politicians we get in the UK now. And i also seem to remember similar sentiments about getting rid of a right wing government and choosing 'socialists' over here back in 1997...and what do we have?

Originally posted by Philip Collins > Originally posted by Mick Aneworderfan Congratulations to the Spanish people for getting rid of the right-wing liars and choosing the socialists! The rest of Europe will hopefully follow in June...

So the socialists aren't going to be liars too? All politicians are liars - it goes with the territory, particularly the kind of career politicians we get in the UK now. And i also seem to remember similar sentiments about getting rid of a right wing government and choosing 'socialists' over here back in 1997...and what do we have?

tony blair is NOT by any strech of the imagination a socialist.

interviewer : "whats your greatest achievement" maggie tatcher "new labour".

its true that a socialist leader is as likely to lie to his/her people as a neo-conservative leader though. it depends on how authoritarian they are.

take the political compass test - its interesting. im on the bottom left - bottom left.

as a socialist though, im happy for any leftist party to win. i doubt its for the right reasons, but saying that , it seems rodriguez zapatero is a calmer type man than azanar, and less likely to react and be generally hawkish.

spain is a great country, heres hoping it has a bright future

tony blair is NOT by any strech of the imagination a socialist.

Which might explain the use of the inverted commas !!

take the political compass test - its interesting. im on the bottom left - bottom left.

This was actually a real revelation. I came out with x -4.00 y -2.31

which makes me a left libertarian. I'm neither, which makes me think that there has been quite a lot of weighting to some questions, and thus renders the whole thing a load of bollocks.

Thanks Tim and Ricardo...that's exactly my point. We all know Tony Blair isn't a socialist yet the party he has led into power is supposed to be a socialist one. All politicians are liars with only their own interests at heart and what happens as a result? Innocent people die whether it's in New York, Afghanistan, Iraq, Madrid or wherever the next atrocity is going to be.