London Bomb rumours ?

Rumours of major incidents in London underground and explosions on buses. Hope all's well with the London Order. Check BBc/Sky websites, although some are 'down' at moment.

Breaking news: Explosions in London Underground, on buses UPDATE 3 Entire Underground shut down, bombs found; buses destroyed in additional explosions

According to live coverage from CNN and BBC, as many as five explosions have crippled the London Underground. The cause is under investigation but Metronet, a company which maintains the subway infrastructure, said it thought at least one of the explosions was caused by a power surge.

UPDATE 1: A witness says a bomb exploded on a double decker bus in central London shortly after the blasts in the Underground. The witness told CNN and BBC reporters that the bomb had taken the top off the bus and that at least one person appeared to have been killed. Other witnesses say the front of the bus was "ripped off." Police have not confirmed the incident. END UPDATE

UPDATE 2: According to Israel National News, bombs have been found at one train blast scene. END UPDATE

UPDATE 3: CNN and BBC are now reporting that three buses have been hit by bombs. END UPDATE

Ireland Online said several people had been injured by the first explosion, which took place during peak rush hour, at 8.49am, London Time, on the Metropolitan Line between Liverpool Street and Aldgate in the financial district.

King’s Cross, Liverpool Street and Aldgate stations have also been cleared.

CNN reports from the scene that the entire Underground has been shut down and that police are widening the evacuation zone.

A City of London Police spokesman told Ireland Online: "We believe there was some sort of explosion. There are some walking wounded at Aldgate.

“We are not sure of the scale of the incident. Reports are still coming in.”

One other site at which some sort of explosion seems to have taken place is at the Edgware Road station in north west London.

:(

Hope all´s well with the london order,too.

Pandemonium here. At least six explosions on Tube trains and buses, the entire London transport network has been closed down for the rest of the day, and several thousand are stranded a long way from home. Reports of fatalities, don't know any more yet.

Hope the rest of the London Order are ok, I'm holed up in my office, unable to get home and also unable to concentrate on work.

Jesus Christ! What the hell is going on???

Oh my god... Just got up and read this here... Am I still dreaming? I hope everything is more or less OK... I didn't read about dead people so maybe luck in bad luck here...

There are now reports of two deaths

Sounds really bad. BBC says, Arab sources who monitor Al-Quaida are sure that it was them, who are responsible for this terrorist attack. I hope the London Order is well, and wish all the best to all Londoners!

Weren't there rumours about something happening to London Underground, shortly after the Al-Quaida attacks in Spain?

Radio 5 says 20 dead and reports of a "similar incident" in Brighton.

They've just suspended all rail, tube and bus services in London - the security services must have some serious info. on this...

Clarification on Brighton - appears the station has been closed as a precaution, no report of any actual explosions.

Right load of bloody rubbish about 'power surges' being the cause to begin with. Do they think we is stoopid? The attack has all the classic Al Queda hallmarks.:(

I don't think there will be more explosions... The work is done and the world is looking...

I could always vomit when I hear the german TV-people asking so called experts how big the danger of sth. like that to happen here is... I think there are other more important points of interest now.

craigy wrote: The attack has all the classic Al Queda hallmarks.:(

Yepp... Sad but true...

Just got a text from JG. He was outside US embassy, loads of old bill amongst the chaos. But at least he is safe. Any word on the rest of the London order?

Terrible news. My prayers are with you.

Geldoff must be choking on his toast

I hope all is well with the London order.

I hope the sick bastards who did this rot in hell

These bastards have achieved their goal - Blair is leaving the G8 to go to London. The loudest voice for making poverty history is now absent from the table, the longer poverty persists the longer terrorism persists.

hope you all and your friends and family are safe; and they can find out who what groups did this. this will escalate the 'war on terrorism'. thanks to the UK NOOLers who are keeping us up to date.

My Thought's go out to all the People in London..

Hope all of the LONDON ORDER and indeed all people in that area are well.My thoughts go to the innocents who have been killed or injured.What a shite world we try to live in at times.Nothing can justify such action.

oldmonkey wrote: Pandemonium here. At least six explosions on Tube trains and buses, the entire London transport network has been closed down for the rest of the day, and several thousand are stranded a long way from home. Reports of fatalities, don't know any more yet.

Hope the rest of the London Order are ok, I'm holed up in my office, unable to get home and also unable to concentrate on work.

If that were me I'd be on the whiskey by now. Hope you and the rest of London Order are safe and sound. Happiness after the Olympic bid and despair today.:(

Im off work with a cold, watching it unfold on TV...

My thoughts go out to everyone caught up in this despicable tragedy.

Scotland Yard suspect that the bus explosion was caused by a suicide bomber.

Old Blue wrote: Scotland Yard suspect that the bus explosion was caused by a suicide bomber.

Oh god... But how else to blow up a bus?

I still don't know what to say about that all... I hope everyone's family is fine...

Today is my 32nd birthday and my last day of the first part of my holidays. Of course everything ruined by these terrorist cunts. Terrorism is already bad, not to mention they attacked my favourite city in the world. I love London, England and the English people, been to Russel Square many times and feel involved in this tragedy. I'm taking the few minutes of Internet access I have now to express my anger and hope all of you in London are safe (though I can imagine what being left without public transport is like in such a huge city!) and the bastards get punished like they were in Madrid one year ago. Long live London, long live England, we're all by your side!

It's said that Al-Quaida pleaded guilty on this...

Innocent people die, this world is fooked up

edgware road station, moorgate, liverpool street, aldgate, and a double-decker.

150 casualties so far.

please keep us updated, london order. we're thinking of you.

The wife, who works in a Government building in Liverpool, has had their premises put on high alert. Affects everyone I guess.

Losers. So smart, attack London. That'd be London that made it through the Blitz. That'd be London that had retards from my country runing round like morons blowing the place up for decades.

Water off a duck's back.

But I hope that all of our friends, and their friends and famillies are home and safe. It's a shitty feeling, I remember all the times as a kid knowing my Mum or granny or dad was in Belfast when it went up. And of course you guys are in no better state for getting info because most of the modern comms stuff seems overloaded.

Be cool.

Go out tonight and get very drunk and have a ball, nothing pisses a terrorist off more than seeing his supposed victims not being all that terrified.

The WTC introduced the Yanks to terrorism up close and personal for the first time, and it didn't take them long to get out of the headless chicken phase and get their heads into "fuck you asshole, is that the best you can do" mode.

You lot are old hands, nearly as old as us "Norn Iron" types, don't let em phase you for a minute. Remember there were shops open in the main street of Omagh the day after they blew it to kingdom come.

This is a hell of a thing to wake up to (I have to work earlier than usual for a Thursday), I certainly hope the folks in London who got caught up in this madness are alright.

The bums who did this are gutless assholes. Period. To attack innocent civilians just because you have some warped beliefs that call for it is fucking awful. That's why I don't subscribe to any organized religion, they turn out fucking creeps like Falwell, Pat Robertson, Bin Laden, Zarqwai, etc, who use it for their own warped views. I'm sorry, but religion is supposed to be about inclusion, not exclusion.

I hope the fuckers who did this are rotting in hell right now. My thoughts and prayers with the people of London.

Started a new job on monday, working in Hemel (10 miles outside of London) , until last week i would have been on tube & in the area when the bombs went off.

Condolences to the people not as lucky as me.

condolences to friends and families of those hurt and killed. Indiscriminate and mindless?

What kind of (less than) human being could target innocent people?

Please take care all wherever you are people. Yesterday was NY today is London but nobody knows about tomorrow. My heart is with Londoners. I agree that the world is totally fooked up.

We shall prevail.

No pasaran!

Not seen any official confirmation of this, but there are a lot of suggestions of a suicide bomber being shot dead by police outside Canary Wharf.

this whole thing is truly sickening. death toll up to 12 according to latest reports. my thoughts and sympathies go out to all those involved. let's hope our London NOOL friends come out ok.

Very very depressing news to wake up to, hoping for the best for all of the Londoners here, and for the city to bounce back.

So far there are 2 confirmed dead at Aldgate & 10 at Kings Cross.

Unconfirmed reports of 8-10 dead at Edgware Road.

A US Official is talking of 40 dead.

It is quite shocking that people will indiscriminately kill innocent people who are not legitimate targets. If these people want to do declare war on us, show your faces.

Thankfully my friends who work in Central London are ok. God only knows how they are going to get home.

So sad :(

I hope all of the London Order are okay , including your friends and Families.i just woke up and saw this, its disgusting, my prayers are with you all

Terrible news, indeed. Let's hope all of our London friends and their relatives are alright.

Old Blue wrote: Clarification on Brighton - appears the station has been closed as a precaution, no report of any actual explosions.

Bomb scare.

Station and surrounding buildings/offices evacuated.

Apparently there was a controlled explosion of a suspect package.

Everything now back to normal although only selected train services to London.

Chris :(

Last word I read from the BBC was at least 30 innocent people killed and "scores more" wounded by this act of cowardice.

I can honestly say I'll never understand how human beings can kill innocent civilians like that, all over ideology. I have faith that the people of London will get through this...and I hope the support the city is receiving from the rest of the world will aid in that effort.

Hope everyone is ok in the smoke.

Thanks Mr Blair and Mr Bush, we reap what we have sewn.

My thoughts go to all caught up in the carnage

Steve Campbell wrote: Losers. So smart, attack London. That'd be London that made it through the Blitz. That'd be London that had retards from my country runing round like morons blowing the place up for decades.

very true. and the brits are very good at dealing with terrorist attacks and their aftermath. london will pull through, as always.

here in the US, the terror threat level remains at yellow except on transport facilities, where it's being raised to orange. and we all know what that means: we have absolutely no idea what the hell the difference between yellow and orange is. except orange is darker than yellow.

"The mujahedeen heroes have launched a blessed attack in London," the statement said.

"Here is Britain burning now out of fear and horror in its north, south east and west. We have often and repeatedly warned the British government and people."

The statement said the group had carried out the attack after exerting "strenuous efforts ... over a long period of time to guarantee" its success.

"We still warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the crusader governments that they will receive the same punishment if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan," it said. "We gave the warning, so we should not be blamed."

CUNTS

Words fail me - I must admit my first thoughts after my immediate family and friends in London were for Jarvo, JG and Tim, and I'm releived to hear you lot are all OK. My heart goes out (for what its worth) to all affected, bloody horrible thing this, I'm seriously at a loss for what to say.

Holy shit, this is really bad news. It's all over the TV-stations here now, and the public radio have news every 15:th minute.

I was hoping that this shit had stopped here in Europe.

A sad day.

:(

My condolences to London... :(

And Islam can fuck the hell off, and take George motherfucker Bush with you.

There's no sense in pointing a finger of blame to anyone but the organization who has claimed responsibility. Many of us don't agree with the policies of Bush and Blair, but that doesn't justify the murder of innocent people. Likewise, many of us find this radical "form" of Islam to be quite distasteful, but it should not condemn the whole religion.

I'm glad everyone here from London is alright so far that I've seen, and I hope all your friends and family are ok as well.

It's really sad, but it's not helped by scapegoating an entire religion that condemns this sort of thing. Remember, there has been a fatwa issued against Bin Laden and Al Qaeda by Muslim clerics..Islamist militants aren't the same thing as Muslims, they're an extreme right wing political faction.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE REFRAIN FROM POLITICAL ARGUEMENTS. Their will be time later but now is time to worry about the innocent victims.

Their seems to be a lot misinformation out their, just like 9/11. Reports of car bombings were everywhere.

Terrorist acts brings out scary behavior out of normal citizens. During the 9/11 attacks, a man grabbed and told me to "pack up because youre going to war". I worked at the closest open photoshop to the WTC. People were bringing film of lost limbs, and other despicable things. I wont go into detail.

This train bombing seems similiar to the spain bombing. I fear that NYC may be next. Its scary because buses, and subways are my lifeline. Really i should worry about regular old fashion crime then terririst acts. More people are murdered by guns in the good old USA each year, then people who died at the WTC.

Hope all is well for you Londoners. I sense a solitary between New Yorkers and Londoners. Their was an errie silentness on public transportation.

FAO Islam's apologists:

The religion is based on the subjugation of women to men-- incidentally, one of the reasons I've written off the Catholic church after they installed the newest fuehrer. Perhaps you don't get out much, so you haven't been hearing about the gang rapes of women in Pakistan as PUNISHMENT FOR THE TRANSGRESSIONS OF THEIR MALE RELATIVES. And what do Islam's leaders have to say about it? Nothing. It's Pakistans secular leader who is trying to stop the practice, primarily to appease his western supporters.

The two countries we are coziest with as "moderate" muslim nations-- Saudi Arabia and Pakistan-- are also the epicenters and most ardent supporters of radical islam. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to what the muslim community in Europe has been saying about "coexisting" with non-muslims-- they don't believe in it. They hate European society and everything it stands for. Ever hear of Theo Van Gogh? Murdered because he made a film about violence against muslim women in the European muslim community.

Read your history-- Islam was built on armed conquest. True, unlike Christianity, Islam didn't make forceful conversions-- Christians and Jews could either convert to Islam, or pay a tax to remain Christian or Jew. But the fact remains that Islam has had a policy of eradicating other religions wherever it has taken hold. Do you ever hear much about the native religion of Iran? No? Perhaps it's because Islam eradicated it. THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN COEXISTENCE. That's your "religion of peace."

At least 37 people died so far. Damn you, terrorists! I hope you all burn in hell, you miserable bastards!! Good to know all our noolers are fine, thank God for that.

I felt completely sick when I found out about this at work today and I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like in London at the moment. I hope everyone from here in the area, along with family, friends and loved ones, are safexxx

bLuE oRdEr wrote: FAO Islam's apologists:

The religion is based on the subjugation of women to men-- incidentally, one of the reasons I've written off the Catholic church after they installed the newest fuehrer.

a) name one major religion where women are given equal standing to men.

b) regarding the role of women in islam: this is generally based on cultural practice rather than religious doctrine and varies from household to household, country to country, and region to region. what about the role of khadija in islamic history and the recognition of her power and influence? or aisha's role as a transmitter of hadith? or in the modern day, the election of benazir bhutto? when you were in amman or istanbul, how many women did you see wearing hijab? or...have you not been to a predominately muslim country before? have you ever asked a muslim woman why she wears hijab? do you know what the qur'an states regarding the proper dress code of women and men?

Ever hear of Theo Van Gogh? Murdered because he made a film about violence against muslim women in the European muslim community.

ok, what about alan berg? he was killed by christian extremists for being an outspoken (jewish) advocate of gun control and gay rights in america. are all christians responsible for his death?

But the fact remains that Islam has had a policy of eradicating other religions wherever it has taken hold.

name one major religion that hasn't done that?

Dear God, sorry to disturb you but...I feel that I should be heard loud and clearWe all need a big reduction in amount of tearsAnd all the people that you made in your imageSee them fighting in the street'Cause they can't make opinions meet about God...You're always letting us humans downThe wars you bring, the babes you drownThose lost at sea and never foundAnd it's the same the whole world 'roundThe hurt I see helps to compound:The father, son and holy ghostIs just somebody's unholy hoaxAnd if you're up there you'll perceiveThat my heart's here upon my sleeveIf there's one thing I don't believe in,It's You,Dear God.

All extremists of all religions should go & fcuk themselves. I am a Christian but have no time for extremists - it's they that give religions a bad name

Latest updates from the 2012 Olympic hosts, who will not be defeated (don't people ever learn, London and Londoners are indestructible).....

37 confirmed dead, though I had sight of a Cabinet Office internal brief a few hours ago that put the toll at 43. 700+ injured.

I've just got home after a 5 hour journey (usually takes 90 minutes). I'm one of the lucky ones to be going home, there's a lot of people who can't, and sadly some who never will again.

I was in two minds about the Digital gig tomorrow night, but we cannot bow in the face of oppression. We cannot give in, we cannot show those who wish to deny our right to life that we can be beaten. Life goes on. The show goes on.

Well said.

Andrew Sayer wrote: All extremists of all religions should go & fcuk themselves. I am a Christian but have no time for extremists - it's they that give religions a bad name

My point exactly. Fundamentalists-- do it my way or die-- of whatever brand of religion can go fuck off.

What can i say that has`nt been said yet? Fucking sickened by this, glad you guys are ok!!

Aye, it wasn't Muslims but Chritstians acting in the name of their religion who attacked Canry wharf, manchester, Omagh, Lemans House, and their crowning glory in the name of their god....an attack on army HORSES. It was cristians acting in the name of their God who threw stones at the children of other christians for being a teeny bit different in belfast while the rest of the world was reeling from 11/09/01, it was business as usual for us northern irish scum.

I've had enough of living in a world ruled by the undereducated, supersticious fuckwitts and having their will imposed on me by laws and or terrorism.

Condolences of a New Order fan from Spain.We know too much about the pain and the fury. I give yo an advice:

YOU MUST BE UNITE, THE GUILTIES ARE ONLY THE FUCKING TERRORISTS.

I want to see my family - my wife & child waiting for me. Heard that anywhere ? Peace friends

The Spanish are no stranger to this spcies of asshole, so honestly take it from me and our spanish friend here. Once you know that you and yours are OK......go out tonight and have a HUGE party. The point of terrorism is to instill terror, remove that, you defeat the terrorists in a far more profounf ( though admittedly less satisfying way) than killing them off.

So you soft southern shites, you pearly ponces......it's 26 pints and 25 Chrouses of "ozzy bin laden is a horses arse".

It kept us going here for years, I'm sure the Spanigh adopted a simillar tactic with that serperatist lot.

/me drops his trousers at the terrosists .."terrorise this, pigfucker...I'm off to the bar"

The first thing I thought is that it was frenches guilt!

Just got off work, and heard about how 37 people are dead and 700 wounded

I just hope that the guys who did this get caught or tracked down (unlike the mastermind of our attack in '01, who'se running free and clear while we decide "hey, Saddam's really pissing us off!"), and I anticipate the legendary British reluctance to put anyone to death to be suspended.

I don't know about you, but the group that claimed credit for this ("The Islamic Jihad of the Taliban" or whatever) sounds questionable. Don't rule out the possibility that this is homegrown (remember how everyone thought Arabs were behind Oklahoma City?)

If there's anything good that can be said about this, it's that this didn't happen a week earlier. Wimbeldon was in full swing, the Live 8 concert there was massive, if this had happened then it might have been even more devestating than it already is.

London has officially joined New York and Madrid as being the greatest city on earth because they can survive this.

I personally have little doubt that those who carried out todays attacks were 'homegrown' so to speak.

As for Belfast/London, having lived in and studied Northern Ireland greatly, its a bit unfair to compare todays to the northern ireland conflict. This is a one off attack in a wider context of a 'war on terror' as well as other global issues (israel and the palestinians etc) and was bigger than any other (in terms of fatalities) of any of the conflict in Ireland, the biggest in ireland was, i believe, in Omagh in 98. And of course, the conflict over there was primarily domestic, (despite what some people would tell you) while today was an international issue.

Uncle Liam wrote: I personally have little doubt that those who carried out todays attacks were 'homegrown' so to speak.

As for Belfast/London, having lived in and studied Northern Ireland greatly, its a bit unfair to compare todays to the northern ireland conflict. This is a one off attack in a wider context of a 'war on terror' as well as other global issues (israel and the palestinians etc) and was bigger than any other (in terms of fatalities) of any of the conflict in Ireland, the biggest in ireland was, i believe, in Omagh in 98. And of course, the conflict over there was primarily domestic, (despite what some people would tell you) while today was an international issue.

I think the comparisons are made to show that London has not only survived previous attacks (though none like this since the war), and that there's a certain amount of experience with similar bombings. Again, you're right in that this is a totally new occurance, but I hope London can rise up from this.

Uncle Liam wrote: I personally have little doubt that those who carried out todays attacks were 'homegrown' so to speak.

As for Belfast/London, having lived in and studied Northern Ireland greatly, its a bit unfair to compare todays to the northern ireland conflict. This is a one off attack in a wider context of a 'war on terror' as well as other global issues (israel and the palestinians etc) and was bigger than any other (in terms of fatalities) of any of the conflict in Ireland, the biggest in ireland was, i believe, in Omagh in 98. And of course, the conflict over there was primarily domestic, (despite what some people would tell you) while today was an international issue.

Doubt you were around in the 70's mate when we had body counts like today's every coupla weeks. And London took plenty then too ( and weathered it). Only city in the world where an item of standard equipment on every police vehicle was a "torso shovel".

Beauty of it is....we're fine now, cos our terrorist cunts bought lots of their bombs and guns from the very terrorist cunts the rest of the world has bother with.

Someone mentioned the UK changing it's laws to allow execution of these people? No need, Gibraltar....pop pop pop, three less terrorists. And endless little stoppings on dark border roads thinned out their numbers too. Funny how many people howled and whined about "aren't the brits bastards" back then, imagine, summarary justice on unlawful combatants, who'd allow it. MY only problem with the shoot to kill policy here was that it was FAR too one sided and not nearly enough of the loyalist scum got lead implants.

Terrorists are small penised little losers, their views never represent those of "their people"....you can be sure of that, because if "their people" agreed....they'd have an army of millions not a band of fucktards that hear the voice of $DEITY.

SERIOUSLY.....open London for business tomorrow morning and it'll tie a knot in the filthy blackenned guts.

All I can say is I hope everyone in our contingent is accounted for and that I hope London will heal soon. What a fucking waste.

His Holiness, The Pope wrote: All I can say is I hope everyone in our contingent is accounted for and that I hope London will heal soon. What a fucking waste.

Yep. Best wishes for the London Order.

I am truely sorry and disturbed by events. My codolences. I am impressed by the reaction of the emergency services, and the British people.

The best we can do is to carry on with our lives and not let terrorism intimmidate and defeat us.

After watching it on the telly last night I just had to turn down the sound and put on some english music.

Blue Order, read Speer's Inside The Third Reich. Interesting comments on "Mohamadism." Speer says that that Hitler argued that Germany had the wrong religion.

Surely they are all wrong?

twist wrote: Blue Order, read Speer's Inside The Third Reich. Interesting comments on "Mohamadism." Speer says that that Hitler argued that Germany had the wrong religion.

Hitler also wanted to discourage Odinism because he thought it would lead Germans away from Christ.

...Hitler was also a syphilitic meth head, so I wouldn't doubt that he said many contradictory things.

Hitler's point was that the Islam is spread through the sword. If the Islamic invaders would have won that long ago battle Germany would be Islamic. But, according to Hitler, the invaders would have died out because they would not be able to adjust to the climate and thus the German people could continue the conquest of the world. His opinion was that Germany should have been Islamic not Christian.

Having grown up in apartheid South Africa during the 70's and 80's where car bombs and bombs in restaurants were fairly common, I can imagine the fear and horror that will now be sinking in. My thoughts are with everyone who has been affected by this. There can never be any justification whatsoever for indiscriminately killing a bunch of people in the name of some idea.

bLuE oRdEr wrote: And Islam can fuck the hell off, and take George motherfucker Bush with you.

Wow, tiger! Islam is not the problem - it's how people misapply it. Islam means peace. Jihad is the battle within yourself between good and evil. I don't follow any particular religion but it's not right to tell Islam to fuck off - the Muslim council of Britain has deplored the attacks.

Don't blame Islam, blame the fucking bastard terrorists and the extremes of poverty that breed terrorism.

I've been a Londoner for 15 years+.

GOOD MORNING LONDON Never doubted you for a second.

EDIT: Well said Craigy. Muslims are to blame as much as Catholics are for the IRA.

I find all religions stupid ( not faith, just religion, I cannot wrap my head around how anyone's relationship with their deity can be defined externally). The bleedin Vatican only admitted galeileo was right a few years ago. Show me a religion with a decent theory of gravitation, electricity and wave mechanics and I MIGHT listen.

Richard Dawkins has a wonderful arguement.... How can a religious zealot be SO convinced his is the one true faith? Has he tried many? did he do a tour of the local religious buildings seeing who had the nicest Hymns or coolest stained glass windows, or even who's views matched their own most closely....or merely pick up the first one his parents left lying around.

It's one of those beautiful pieces of thinking that appears perfectly clear to everyone except those to whom it actually refers.

craigy wrote:

Wow, tiger! Islam is not the problem - it's how people misapply it. Islam means peace. Jihad is the battle within yourself between good and evil. I don't follow any particular religion but it's not right to tell Islam to fuck off - the Muslim council of Britain has deplored the attacks.

Don't blame Islam, blame the fucking bastard terrorists and the extremes of poverty that breed terrorism.

I'm not a fan of Islam, but what you said is right... Ask e.g. Yussuf Islam (Cat Stevens) what Islam is really about...

I would like to express my deepest sympathy to all victims and their family and friends.

Londoners, please be aware that we sympathise with you all!!!

Kind regards, Jim

The shoot to kill policy was stupid. If any state initiates such policies, they provide real justifications for terrorism. It was the reactionary policies of the British state that fuelled republican paramilitaries in the 70s. Liam may also like to take into account that the British Army had/has a presence up north, and that mainland Britain was attacked on numerous occasions, whilst the republic of Ireland was attacked by the British state too – in one instance leaving 33 dead, and hundreds injured. The situation in the North of Ireland is more than a “domestic conflict”.

What happened in London yesterday was terrible. No amount of ID cards, Guantanamos, and attacks on the freedoms of ordinary people are going to stop it happening again. There can be no doubt either that the “War on Terror” – just like the “War on Drugs” has worsened the situation. There is no justification for what happened in London yesterday – but there are reasons. Simply calling people “Evil” is a gross simplification of any situation.

$2Billion a day has been spent on the War on Terror since 2001, since then, tens of thousands are dead, and many former moderates have been radicalised to the extreme right wings of their respective religions. Iraq is in a state of Civil war because of (rather than in spite of) the presence of US and British troops. It is a policy that is failing to stop attacks on innocents in the west, and is guaranteeing them on innocents in the mid-east. It is also a policy that has driven ordinary people on both sides to extreme points of views – characterised on these very message boards by the “fuck Islam” bigotry of one poster.

Indeed! Someone once said; how can you teach people that killing is wrong by killing more people...

I'd have thought that anyone denouncing Islam would be a Christian (or possibly jew).

Turn the other cheek Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

oh and that commandment is....

"THOU SHALT NOT KILL" not "thou shalt not kill unless your govt says it's ok cos the guy's name is mohammed"

there are no qualifiers, no quantifiers, no exceptions, sub-clauses or fine print. Just "thou shalt not kill"....I know other bits of the Bible talk about an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth (leaving everyone blind and starving), but I thought the Bible was just the "word" of Jehova, and the commandments were "law" and therefor trump everything else.....after all Moses' tablets were written by the big yin himself which is more than you can say for the rest of it.

I laugh when I see army chaplains and stuff....I'm thinking...boy are you gonna be sorry if your fairy tale turns out true......they meet saint pete....."says here you blessed men who you KNEW were on their way to break the commandments and wish that GOD HELP THEM!!!!??!!??!!......oh dear....going DOWN!"

EDIT: BTW the idea of Islam as a fundamentally intolerant religion is silly. Ask an Iman about Jesus and ask a priest about Mohammed, see who gives an intolerant answer. And while you're at it.....consider...the crusades and the spanish inquisition. As for the subjugation of women, Christianity is only coming out of that now after 2000 years....Islam has a while to go yet, and I'd have thought it was up to them to lead the lives they wish, if their women do not like it, they could become Christian or Jewish, yet they do not.

The facts:

There is no democracy in any muslim countries(except Turkey maybe).

There is no freedom in any muslim countries

The women´s discrimination is the main thing in the social organization in all these countires.

Are you sure that the Islam is not the problem?

I think that the laicism is one of the most important things in our politic system. Do you believe thet is posible in the muslim countries (and i don´t refer to islamic republics like Iran, i talk about all the muslim countries.

The problem is poverty.

The solution isn't war.

I think we're losing sight here. There's 50+ men women and kids dead, and really it doesn't mater if the people who did it were Muslims Jews, Christians, Mromons or fucking Martians......any religious affiliation MUST be sceondary to the fundamental fact that such people are simply hate filled scum. They are killers, cowardly killers, cowardly killers who TARGET the innocent, they are that before, above and notwithstanding anything else they may be.

if it turns out this was anti globalisation protesters....what arvitrary group can be scapegoated then? poor people? People with long har? people who buy free range eggs?

There's a huge amount to be discussed certainly, and I'm thankful that most people here, even those I dissagree with, are capable of rational discussion. But it's best left to another time, another thread.

There are only 2 fats worth repeating.

1. Some good people are no longer with us, and many more are in pain for that loss, many others still are in physical pain caused by wounds.
2. Beyond those poor people, beyond a couple of hours of running around in the streets, the big brave soldiers of god, or whoever the hell they were, have caused London, the City, the Entity, the Spirit of it's millions of souls (souls from all over our planet I may add), no more permenant damage than would a rhino suffer at the hands of a flea sinking his teeth into it's arse with all it's might.

It's simple so that minds keep focussed. If you want my detailed (over 100,000 word) treatise on the problems of the world go to:

http://www.20six.co.uk/cloudcuckooland

War is never good no matter what - especially the stupid bloody pre-emptive wars that are currently in vogue.

With regard to that, here's another dumb-fuck simplicity to analyse; 'vicious circles'.

AgentWood wrote: we have absolutely no idea what the hell the difference between yellow and orange is. except orange is darker than yellow.

Actually, you're able to eat an orange.

Ally3000 wrote:

craigy wrote: The problem is poverty.

The solution isn't war.

Probably the most simplistic reasoning I've ever heard for this, you do know there is a bit more to it than simply what you said above? I also don't subscribe to the hippy belief that all war is bad, of course it is horrific but sometimes it is necessary to protect a greater good.

Personally I don't subscribe to any religion, but 'Islamic' terrorists... there just seem to be so many of them. You don't really hear of Buddist terrorists do you? Even Christian militant groups are relatively small fry (unless you count the US as one big Christian militant group) I have my suspicions of their faith for sure, but I would never discriminate against a Muslim, they're just as human as I am. The analogy of blaming all Catholics for IRA campaigns here is very apt, you can't simply blame all Muslims. That would breed the same hatred London saw yesterday. Some morons will though, probably with the BNP in the thick of it feasting on the fear.

Who were the innocent victims yesterday in London? – Workers

Who will fight for the US/UK army in the Middle East – predominantly working class soldiers.

Who Blow themselves up in Iraq and Palestine? – Muslims, yes, but not very rich ones

Will millionaires have to fear that their commuter train will be blown up? – No

Is Multi Millionaire Bin Laden walking around with a bomb belt, or is he just funding the policies of murder? - No

Will the Bush twins do a stint in the land their father seems so keen on blowing up? - No

It’s the poor people in the west, and the poor people in the middle east that get dumped on. It’s the working class areas in Northern Ireland that are ruined by organised terrorists and organised Criminals. When you look at it objectively, its always the rich that win in these conflicts, and always the poor that suffer.

Wake up, before we all end up on our knees.

Also: Not every Republican is necessarily a Catholic, and most provos wouldn’t have much time for the Church.

twist wrote: Blue Order, read Speer's Inside The Third Reich.

I doubt the self-serving Speer is a very reliable witness.

Incidentally, I used to think the subdued sample at the start of 'This Time of Night' was someone saying 'I'm one of the few people who lived inside what's called the Third Reich'. I remember thinking 'Oh God not another embarassing Nazi reference'. (when of course, its actually Jeffrey Bernard saying '...who's lived whats called the low life')

JL Castrillon wrote: The facts:

There is no democracy in any muslim countries(except Turkey maybe).

There is no freedom in any muslim countries

Well since freedom is your concern....why not rollup to their border's with a big loudspeaker and shout....."Who all doesn't like being a Muslim....alllof you can come out here and we'll take care of you". And see how many takers you get.

The you can leave them to THEIR freedom.

Freedom of faith is a fairly important freedom. Sound like you don't care much for freedom really, because the first thing you must do is grant people the freedom to be assholes.

"Free to live exactly like we do" doesn't have much ring to it.

Incidentally, I'm popping round to see my Jordanian Friend Amir soon.....would you like me to start with knifing him, or should I go for his baby daughter? I suppose the Muslim dead from yesterday should be stuck up in the streets?

Actually, on a thread where people quote speer and hitler then start talking about the extermination of a religion....well....guess all those referrences DID attract the wrong sort of person to NO.

I wonder what would happen if the Talliban won the next afghan election?

Clockwork C wrote: The shoot to kill policy was stupid. If any state initiates such policies, they provide real justifications for terrorism. It was the reactionary policies of the British state that fuelled republican paramilitaries in the 70s. Liam may also like to take into account that the British Army had/has a presence up north, and that mainland Britain was attacked on numerous occasions, whilst the republic of Ireland was attacked by the British state too – in one instance leaving 33 dead, and hundreds injured. The situation in the North of Ireland is more than a “domestic conflict”.

What happened in London yesterday was terrible. No amount of ID cards, Guantanamos, and attacks on the freedoms of ordinary people are going to stop it happening again. There can be no doubt either that the “War on Terror” – just like the “War on Drugs” has worsened the situation. There is no justification for what happened in London yesterday – but there are reasons. Simply calling people “Evil” is a gross simplification of any situation.

$2Billion a day has been spent on the War on Terror since 2001, since then, tens of thousands are dead, and many former moderates have been radicalised to the extreme right wings of their respective religions. Iraq is in a state of Civil war because of (rather than in spite of) the presence of US and British troops. It is a policy that is failing to stop attacks on innocents in the west, and is guaranteeing them on innocents in the mid-east. It is also a policy that has driven ordinary people on both sides to extreme points of views – characterised on these very message boards by the “fuck Islam” bigotry of one poster.

When did the British state attack the Republic of Ireland? I have no knowledge of these events, but i assume you were talking in the context of the troubles that began in the late 60's?

Actually, you could argue that the War on Terror has been quite succesful. Consider it as on ongoing thing, the fact of the matter is that an attack on London was inevitable, but compare it to Madrid, Bali etc etc it was quite small scale, bearing resemblance to a more guerilla style attack than traditional terrorist tactics. There was no biological attack, no nuclear dirty bomb and all those other things that have been mentioned as possibilities. Yes, a terrible atrocity, but one which could have been a hell of a lot worse.

The bottom line is that, especially in this country, Islam needs to take a long hard look at itself. Why are people carrying this out. its not solely 'poor', a lot of these people come from very well to do backgrounds, think about it, its not cheap to spend months away from your family in pakistan or afghanistan is it? Also, why are the various muslim bodies so quick to portray themselves as the victim, blaming the BNP and the rest of the far right, and a misunderstanding of Islam. No one has a misunderstanding of Buddism, or Judaism, or even aeithism. it is solely islam that has these problems, and they need to sort it out instead of constantly playing the victim.

Islam has been the victim of the biggest terrorist on the planet BUSH.

Bush and Blair have put this on our doorstep - BASTARDS

Same reason some prick priest/minister or politician from the responsible side is always on the TV yackin when something happens here.

The self same priests who allow volleys of shots by terrorists at terrorist funerals. The self same ministers who let their churches be used as bases of operations for attacks on Catholics.

The self same politicians who hate the thought of peace cos they'd be off the gravy train.

You cannot blab about islam this and islam that when you live where we do. How many bombs and guns have been found in chapels and churches here?

None of the tiny number of Muslims I know have ever acted or spoken viloently, yet I see my fellow (by name and birth only) Protestants stoning Catholic children. I've watched them burn our their own busses, shoot at the firemen putting them out.....I even seen them stone a fireman who was putting out ONE OF THEIR OWN who in his almighty genius had tipped a molotov all down himself......I thought I was gonna take an asthma attack I laughed so hard.

All religions bear the responsibility for acts carried out on their behalf. the human race is full of dickheads and morons, they can always be steered on someone else's course of fanaticism. Religion is an important method of doing this..."you must do $OBSCENE_ACT for $DEITY". Even that cockcheese Hitler knew that and adopted SO mch of the trappings and pomp of religion into his own little knobhead club. Germany is a prime example of how even the sane and rational (never mind the uneducated religious savage) can be swept along on a wave of evil.

If Islam is any more guilty than any other religion, it's probably more to do with the fact that in general they take their religion more seriously than we so-called Christians, and are therefor easier to turn to the path of violence with a quick word from some tosser about "Allah's will". We're probably lucky there are no Jewish terrorist groups (with the exception of the Isreali Govt. Obviously) Or Mormons or even Budhists or whoever, because most religions take things a bit more seriously than an excuse to get legless at the winter solstice.

If the International community had responded to the problems in NI like they responded to the recent outbreaks, the republic of Ireland, a lovely place full of lovely people woulda been bombed into a muddy mire. (more likely they;d actually have Bombed somewhere totally unrelated...if we're to keep to the metaphor).

Bring me a terrorist, and I'll personally put the hot wires down his dickeye, coat him in paper cuts and dump him in a tank of young Whiting. But hurt one Muslim for actions carried out by another....nope, that would make ME a terrorist....using fear in a population to exert political pressure on a faction within that population.

OOOOOOPS...post went a bit stegglehedge there....clipboard under the control of an idiot :)

9/11 was planned before Bush was in office and carried out before Bush sent troops to Afghanistan and Iraq. Western democracies represent a threat to Middle East male theocracies. Be happy you can enjoy 38 EEs. In the Mid East those are covered up and never seen.

Digital Mike Binoche wrote: Islam has been the victim of the biggest terrorist on the planet BUSH.

Bush and Blair have put this on our doorstep - BASTARDS

Goes back even further...the crusades....the brittish installing their own Govts all over the arab world. The UK and US helping set up isreal is a biggie too ( hell I'd be pissed off if someone showed up at my front door, saying "I've got this ancient fairy tale that says I live here, mind if I come in?" And ended up being made to live in the outside toilet being shot at by gunships).

I love Bush, he's the best comedy act on TV. Saudi's fuck over his country, so he has dinner with their ambassador and bombs Iraq.

But you can't put all the blame on "US" any more than you can put it all on "them".

You know, to be honest I think we're all pretty much sick wankers.

Poor buggers are barely cold, there may be people here affected, and here we are scoring points of each other. We're prety low.

Mind you when I think of the way some other places on the net will be dicussing this, we're a convent school debating socienty.

Do u think we should all shut up bout this?

I will if the rest of you will :)

Clockwork C wrote:

Who were the innocent victims yesterday in London? – Workers

considering where the bombs were planted, i think the majority of those killed and injured were most likely members of the bourgeoisie. i don't think you can use these attacks to further the marxist cause.

besides the point though, really.

Be happy you can enjoy 38 EEs. In the Mid East those are covered up and never seen.

With all the rants about how poorly women are treated by Muslims, isn't yor statement objectifying a womens body? Sexual exploitation of women in America is a billion dollar industry, rapes and other sexual assaults happen everyday, women get paid less in the work place, women who have big breats and a cute face can get better jobs and more promotions, nevermind their education or intellect. The idea behind covering up those 38 EEs is that men should not objectify women and treat them fairly. Obviously this idea has been lost among some Muslims but the basic principle is that would you want your sister, wife, or mother to be showing off her big tits so men can jerk off to it? I hope this is making some sense.

Steve Campbell wrote: You know, to be honest I think we're all pretty much sick wankers.

Poor buggers are barely cold, there may be people here affected, and here we are scoring points of each other. We're prety low.

Mind you when I think of the way some other places on the net will be dicussing this, we're a convent school debating socienty.

Do u think we should all shut up bout this?

I will if the rest of you will :)

Yeah, after a day of pontificating about all what's wrong with the world, I had to take a break and go out looking for signs of life (cute girls, little babies, good books to read, etc) this afternoon. I think, for the sake of the victims and their families, I will hold off further thoughts on the "blame" and just say I hope things can get better, but enjoy life while you have it. As yesterday proved, you never know when your time is up.

Spotnick wrote:

JL Castrillon wrote: The facts:

There is no democracy in any muslim countries(except Turkey maybe).

Democracy is not necessairly always a good thing, sometimes people (Americans mostly ;) ) elect idiots.

And another thing... there is islamic extremists, and there is also born-again christian extremists.. and we know where they are ;)

Jesusland!

LOL Britania Hits America a clip round the ear and says..."jesus nuts, right wing madmen, left wing madmen, astrologers advising government, dogs and cats mating in the streets and as for HOLLYWOOD, don't even start me on Hollywood....I don't know I try my best, and all you do is get all "independent", honestly I don't know why you can't just TRY to be a little more like your sisters Canada and Australia ( and she's full of CONS!) at least they have manners.....and another thing...your Auntie France and Uncle Ireland aren't best chuffed with you either, I should have put you over my knee and spanked you the minute you got stroppy about the taxes......." and so on.

(It's a joke people, nothing else) Laughter is a fearful sound to a fanatic ( unless of course it;s the diabolical cackling kind)

Actually, seriously, try this....next time you get pinned by a street looney or Linux.Mac.Windows.OS2 advocate, or the next time your boss is raving like a rabid dog about you being 14seconds longer than the regulation shite-break. Just Laugh in the fucker's face, it always renders them so mad they can no longer form an argument that even their own deluded minds could consider as coherent. ONLY try it on people who want to beat you up if you're sure you can get all their mates laughing too, that works, otherwise...well it's time to burn Nike.

kamar wrote:

Be happy you can enjoy 38 EEs. In the Mid East those are covered up and never seen.

With all the rants about how poorly women are treated by Muslims, isn't yor statement objectifying a womens body? Sexual exploitation of women in America is a billion dollar industry, rapes and other sexual assaults happen everyday, women get paid less in the work place, women who have big breats and a cute face can get better jobs and more promotions, nevermind their education or intellect. The idea behind covering up those 38 EEs is that men should not objectify women and treat them fairly. Obviously this idea has been lost among some Muslims but the basic principle is that would you want your sister, wife, or mother to be showing off her big tits so men can jerk off to it? I hope this is making some sense.

the smartest thing i've heard in a long time.

The man was acquitted, the woman was sentenced to death.

very sad news. Thoughts with all.

thats a situation where muslims around the world should protest and speak out against. but they won't because it does not directly affect them. sharia law is bullshit. i can't believe people would allow their governments to come to that. in similar cases i've heard about in pakistan, these types of things happen among tribal factions who usually are not controlled by the government (as in the patans in northern pakistan) but the good news is that with so much media attention given to pakistan and the governments desire to look good for th US, they have been cracking down on some of these incidents.

bLuE oRdEr wrote: The man was acquitted, the woman was sentenced to death.

Since you're so good at googling, and since you are obviously such an apostle of mercy and truth.... Tell me please how many more times more likely a black skinned woman is to be executed than a white skinned man, in your own bastion and model of freedom, democracy and justice.

Oh and while we're on whacky religious laws.....Darwin? ILLEGAL in some states, forced to be read along side fairy tales in others. WOW, Glad I don't live in one of those oppressive Muslim Countries.

kamar wrote:

Be happy you can enjoy 38 EEs. In the Mid East those are covered up and never seen.

With all the rants about how poorly women are treated by Muslims, isn't yor statement objectifying a womens body? Sexual exploitation of women in America is a billion dollar industry, rapes and other sexual assaults happen everyday, women get paid less in the work place, women who have big breats and a cute face can get better jobs and more promotions, nevermind their education or intellect. The idea behind covering up those 38 EEs is that men should not objectify women and treat them fairly. Obviously this idea has been lost among some Muslims but the basic principle is that would you want your sister, wife, or mother to be showing off her big tits so men can jerk off to it? I hope this is making some sense.

As I understand it the Koran just says both sexes should dress modestly. Which could be interpreted to mean Maoist style unisex boiler suits. And in this day when the fashion seems to be to show off your Calvin Klein underwear, and maybe your arse crack, whether anyone wants to see it or not, there's maybe quite a bit to be said for that. But in practice so many Muslim men seem to intepret this in a completly one-sided sexist way, namely that women have to cover up completely becuase men cannot be expected to control themselves (I guess its too much to ask of the poor dears).

There was a revealing article a while ago when a journalist was interviewing a fundy muslim in a car, when a muslim woman passed by, completely covered from head to toe, and the fundy guy got all worked up and declared it was disgusting, that you could make out the shape of her breasts (if you look hard enough and use your imagination, I guess). I think some of these guys are just projecting their own problems with sex onto women.

Then there was the recent case of the Muslim school girl going to court to demand the right to wear full hijab to her (overwhelmingly muslim) school in violation of the school dress code of a trouser suit (which itself had been agreed with senior muslim scholars). She appeared to be determined to show herself to be a better muslim than her fellow pupils, which seems to me to be the precise opposite of 'dressing modestly'. Effectively she was demanding the right to dress according to a Gulf Arab interpretation of the Koran rather than the South Asian interpretation that prevailed at the school. E.g. it was a cultural issue not a religious one. Why she won this case on the grounds of 'religious freedom' is beyond me.

The problem probably isn't either western permissiveness nor Islamic rules, but the sexism of western and muslim men in intepreting their respective cultural rules.

Also I think its a bit dubious to point out the high rape rate in the US, as if it doesn't happen in Muslim countries. And when it does it is less likely to be prosecuted. The ethos in much of the Muslim world seems to be that its the woman's job to avoid provoking the males uncontrollable urges, rather than men learning to control themselves.

(To be fair, I dunno if that's down to Islam or just that those particular countries happen to be culturally backward, as I say, it doesn't seem inherent to the Koran).

Steve Campbell wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote: The man was acquitted, the woman was sentenced to death.

Since you're so good at googling, and since you are obviously such an apostle of mercy and truth.... Tell me please how many more times more likely a black skinned woman is to be executed than a white skinned man, in your own bastion and model of freedom, democracy and justice.

Oh and while we're on whacky religious laws.....Darwin? ILLEGAL in some states, forced to be read along side fairy tales in others. WOW, Glad I don't live in one of those oppressive Muslim Countries.

I don't think Muslims are very keen on Darwin either. One of the many things fundy Christians and Muslims agree on. Its really quite suprising the two groups don't get on.

Workers aren't necessarily white male heterosexuals draped head to toe in a boiler suit or sporting mining hat.

A dogmatic Marxist – or someone whose knowledge of Marx extends to that perpetrated by the right may indeed call Secretaries, Civil servants, Teachers, Bank Clerks, Call centre Workers etc members of the bourgeoisie – but in reality that is not the case. There is a professional working class in Western society, and has been a tradition as such dating back to the time of Marx.

This is all a little beside the point. Suffice to say that for the most part, those with the keys to power and with large capital reserves (I’m thinking property speculators, etc) don’t travel on Public Transport.

There are numerous instances of British Security forces operating in and attacking the Republic of Ireland. The most prominent case being the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

The various points on Islam have been dealt with quite well by others on these boards, and I’m not really going to go into it. As a Socialist, I don’t really respect what anybody believes in – but respect their right to believe in it, so long as it doesn’t affect anyone else’s freedoms.

From my interpretation of the Bible, there is no excuse for killing another Human Being, yet many Christian groups have campaigned for the death penalty. I don’t really think that other Christians can do much about these extremists, who quite flagrantly breach the “shall not kill” rule – apart from condem them – which is what most Muslims have done of the terrorist element.

It would be nice if you could have rational discussions with anybody on this earth, but wherever you go, you find people with twisted views of usually dubious texts. If people thought more and believed less, the world would be a better place.

By any measure, the war on terror has been a failure. In the region of $3000 Billion dollars have been spent so far according to the US treasury. Between 100 and 200 thousand people have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Thousands killed in London, Bali, Madrid, and New York. This killing on both sides (although Id say 1 b52 raid could kill thousands more than 911 in 1 swoop) wont stop until the underlying causes are addressed.

Show me 1 area of the world where a reactionary approach to terrorism has succeeded in stopping it? As Steve Campbell will tell you, Northern Ireland had the single largest military presence per head of civilian population during the late 70s through to the late 90s. I remember being a kid and travelling around there a lot – and there was literally a British Army outpost on the top of every mountain and hill. Checkpoints going into and out of each town. Tens of thousands of Troops. The most advanced military equipment in the world (e.g. night vision goggles in the 70s, etc, etc). More or less unaccountable Police force, free to beat who they like. A shoot to kill policy. All in a province of under 1 million people that you could cycle end to end in a day.

And yet it seemed like the IRA, UFF, etc would never stop growing.

The reactionary approach didn’t work. And it isn’t working in Israel either.

Now you can call Gerry Adams a murdering so and so, or say that UFF volunteers were just a manifestation of otherworldly Evil, and the way to stop them is by killing them, but it isn’t true – because violence breeds violence, galvanises communities and countries, and breeds terrorism.

It wasn’t until the underlying causes of conflict were addressed, that the Northern situation began to improve. It isn’t an Ideal society at the moment – but on this day (July 12th) 10, 20, 30 years ago you couldn’t imagine things would ever be so good.

What the men in bomb belts did is inexcusable. Killing innocents in any area of the world for any cause is wrong. I wont try and justify their religious motivations – just to say that western governments response has to be more sophisticated than it is at present – and must deal with those lost to the violent path while not leading others down it.

There's not much intelligent that any rational human being can say to that. So I'LL post instead. Except that Adams and the UFF ARE as described ( and then some :) (but you're right about the killing them thing, it didn't work, What was it you called that country that did all the whinging about the STK policy tho???)

Not bad going, some cops set fire too up the Ardoyne, and a railway line blown up. Odd, that's not even worth a video slot on news24i. No dogs, no blacks, no irish eh?

Of course, if tony follows the NI solution, Osama bin Laden will be the UK's new education secretary. (hey I'm not complaining about the way things are here, just pointin out the reality of it)

404 error wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote: The man was acquitted, the woman was sentenced to death.

Since you're so good at googling, and since you are obviously such an apostle of mercy and truth.... Tell me please how many more times more likely a black skinned woman is to be executed than a white skinned man, in your own bastion and model of freedom, democracy and justice.

Oh and while we're on whacky religious laws.....Darwin? ILLEGAL in some states, forced to be read along side fairy tales in others. WOW, Glad I don't live in one of those oppressive Muslim Countries.

If we make it a black man, instead of a black woman, it's many times more likely. I think that's more about class than race, though, or maybe a combination of class and race. If O.J. Simpson had been a poor black man, he'd likely be on death row. His financial ability to hire a "dream team" of lawyers was a significant advantage that most defendants, black or white, don't enjoy.

Women tend not to get executed as frequently as men, so I changed the gender in my response. Look, I'm not saying "we're good and they're bad." What I was disputing is the immediate rush to say that Islam is a religion of peace every time a bomb goes off. And I think enough people have pointed out the problem with lumping all of Islam in the same basket that I need to acknowledge that, but in a separate post, probably on the Religion & Politics thread.

Teaching Darwin is not illegal in any state. In every state, teaching religious ideas about the origins of man in state schools is an unconstitutional use of the state to promote religion. Private religious schools can teach what they want. Our own right wingnut fundamentalists are doing everything they can to get their religion taught in state schools; that's why you read about teaching Darwin alongside fairy tales.

I don't think Muslims are very keen on Darwin either. One of the many things fundy Christians and Muslims agree on. Its really quite suprising the two groups don't get on.

God's Warrior Twins

I keep forgetting you're all New Order fans, and consequently, by definition, a bit wiser than most. I'm too used to boardbrawling with netnazi's (Usually The US far right/left, but I have a taste for the byteblood of religious tossers [1], racists,Microsoft advocates, and most network flotsum. Trouble is, I always lose my cool first.

Anyway, sorry for getting heated. Probably came down to three things.

1. I think I thought you were saying "us god, them bad", sorry, you were of course actually saying "we're all bastards, it's a matter of degree".
2. I am more than a little hurt by the way everyone has swept NI out of time and space, it's an un-atrocity now. A tad pathetic really that people seem to think it's a numbers game of "my bloodbath's bigger than yours". I don't just mean people here, I mean the UK media as well, there's not a word about the fact that people have tried this shit on London before and had no effect, and not a word of what we had to endure here, you guy have NO idea what security is all about, to be honest I think the only places you'd see the same level as it was here in the 70's (even now) is Isreal's interfaces with the (rest of) palestine, or the Berlin wall at the height the cold war.
3. When I was a kid I thought I was growing up in a world that was moving forward, away from old stupid dupersticions (hmmmm interesting typo...claimed by me :) ) and towards an enlightened future. But I've been sorely dissappointed. There are Entire nations based on Religious culture, and now the USA, who I always looked up to as our most advanced nation, a big pot of all of us mixed up for 200+ years, is being taken over by the same dark puritan forces. We're going backwards to a time of magic and astrology and chicken entrails and the bible. And to be honest I am genuinely angry with the USA for allowing this shit to happen to itself. I'm not a yank hater, rather fond of most of em actually, but I am terrified, utterly shite scared of the way things are going over there, it's like watching Orwell play out on the news. I'm scared for the Americans themselves, and for the rest of us cos, well, as Bill Hicks said the last thing we need is fundamentalist Christians sitting with their finger on the button saying "tell me when lord". Never mind the appaling things being done to freedom in the name of freedom ("freedom is slavery")

[1]Religious tossers, being those who "god this" and "jesus that" and would in reality have phoned the police at the sight of a hairy middle eastern man surrounded by 12 others going round praching peace and love. Religious tossers are distinct from those who have a faith and shut up about it, and those who actually act out the principles of their religion.....which in the case of most major religions biols down to "And the Lord sayeth unto man, "wouldst thou for fucks sake at least TRYETH not to be a complete cunt your WHOLE life"". Sadly, the Religious Tossers, would have heard that message, and started a war over whether The Almighty should have used double or single quotes.

Steve Campbell wrote:

2. I am more than a little hurt by the way everyone has swept NI out of time and space, it's an un-atrocity now. A tad pathetic really that people seem to think it's a numbers game of "my bloodbath's bigger than yours". I don't just mean people here, I mean the UK media as well, there's not a word about the fact that people have tried this shit on London before and had no effect, and not a word of what we had to endure here, you guy have NO idea what security is all about, to be honest I think the only places you'd see the same level as it was here in the 70's (even now) is Isreal's interfaces with the (rest of) palestine, or the Berlin wall at the height the cold war.

Here goes World War III.

In my younger days, I was pro-republican. NOT pro-terrorism, but just thought the Brits should get out of Northern Ireland, and that all of Ireland should be the Republic.

I think it's more complex than that, now. I mean, what do you do? Do the British just pull out, and leave it to the paramilitaries to slaughter each others families off? The catholics were and still are oppressed and targeted. The Orangemen parade routes are deliberately calculated to humiliate the catholics and remind them who's in charge (although maybe that's changed now?). On the other hand, the British were decidedly biased in favor of the protestant paramilitaries, so it's not as if they were actually keeping the peace. More like making sure there was no change in the balance of power.

But in the larger context, the terrorism in N.I. was part of the older struggle to take Ireland back from the British. Unfinished business. The British never had any legitimate claim to any part of Ireland, and it was right for the Irish to run them out. But what do you do with the Northern Counties with an ethnic Scottish majority (I don't think it's a religious war, I think it's a nationalist war, but you can tell who's who by their religion.)? Should they become a minority in the Republic? Should they continue to enjoy majority status as a separate nation on the island? If so, what of the catholics, who are now a minority in their own land, courtesy of British policy? What's just? I don't know. But it's become clear that the IRA is, in the end, just a bunch of thugs, just like their protestant counterparts.

Maybe the only thing left is for the catholics and the proddies to put down their arms, forget about each trying to get a leg up on the other, and just get down to the business of living together in a just peace.

3. When I was a kid I thought I was growing up in a world that was moving forward, away from old stupid dupersticions (hmmmm interesting typo...claimed by me :) ) and towards an enlightened future. But I've been sorely dissappointed.

I thought the same thing. I was just thinking about that the other night. I thought when the older generation finally died off, we'd have a better world. But the old hatreds seem to find new life in every generation.

There are Entire nations based on Religious culture, and now the USA, who I always looked up to as our most advanced nation, a big pot of all of us mixed up for 200+ years, is being taken over by the same dark puritan forces. We're going backwards to a time of magic and astrology and chicken entrails and the bible. And to be honest I am genuinely angry with the USA for allowing this shit to happen to itself. I'm not a yank hater, rather fond of most of em actually, but I am terrified, utterly shite scared of the way things are going over there

Half of us agree with you.

Really, more than half-- not everybody who voted Bush likes the direction of this country, as poll after poll has demonstrated. A lot of people voted Bush because he played on their fear of terrorism, and that was enough, barely, to give him a majority of what, 51%? I don't know how the numbers break down, but Bush's base of support is: social conservatives (fundamentalist Christians) and fiscal conservatives; the fiscal conservatives don't even necessarily agree with the social conservatives. The people who put him over the top were the voters he terrified with "images" of terrorism if he lost.

the arab-israeli conflict is also an ethnic conflict rather than a religious one. during the 1970s, many of the most violent attacks against jewish israelis were perpetrated by palestinian christians (between 15-20% of the palestinian population), although the islamist hamas and IJ are the largest terrorist organizations active within the occupied territories today, and therefore the most well-known.

still, both sides have used religion to justify their killing of one another, since appealing to faith seems to be the most effective way to provoke people to hate. actually, it's about land and who 'deserves' to live on this slice of earth the size of new jersey.

Could you imagine fighting like that over New Jersey?

bLuE oRdEr wrote: Could you imagine fighting like that over New Jersey?

my landfill can beat up your landfill!

My toxic dump is more toxic than your toxic dump!

AgentWood wrote:

Where did you get that pic of Spike's house? :D

New Jersey is the abode of the Aqua Teen Hunger Force...so of course it's worth fighting over!

Blue, man, I think I'm gonna pin your post up round town under the heading "looks folks, someone in the US with a clue about this place". The parades are a really tricky one, I mean really, in their owm right they're a mad thing.

There was a time, pre "troubles" ( I dunno if the rest of the world knows, but that's what we had.."troubles"...gotta love the English gift for understatement) when the parades were just some blokes remembering a battle, the bands played mainly hymns, and were relatively welcome in catholic areas (many catholics would come out and watch indeed...and not for their latter day reasons). I think the relative peace was down to them thinking they ran the country (they did). As the Republicans revolted (and I honestly don't blame them one bit), they felt threatened. Like all bullie, when they're threatened they get louder and nastier. Out with the Hymns and in with stopping for ten minutes in front of the chapel and playing "fuck the pope" tunes good and loud. In that period (70's and 80's) any violence asociate with the parades was almost exclusvely the work of the bands, some of whom were little more than bussed in barmy armies, the orange lodges themselves were still primarily made up of respectable gentlemen, however unpleasant their veiws. However through the 90's the lodges themselves filled up with spides ( what the mainlanders call chavs, tracksuited braindeads with the Dakek's outlook on the world "you are different you must be exterminated"), and that's where we get things like Drumcree. This was of course made much worse by the fact that genuine political progress had been made, and they just went into "pissing on lampposts mode". It all got silly, like the parade routes were somehow Godgiven sacred golden roads. At the same time, certain nationalist shit stirrers strted arriving in areas that were contentious to wind people up more. It all looked really scarey for a while.

this year however things went relatively well, even the crazy bastards in Derry managed to work it all out and still say nice things about each other when it was all over. The ones in portadown, have been bending over backwards to show they aren't just about hatred (shades of a KKK PR campaign). in fact about from one little bomb, it was OK ish.

there was trouble but in a couple of areas, and perhaps this will explain why I crack up at anyone who seems to be on one far end of a debate and won't see the other side (I'll argue a posistion with someone, then the next day argue the opposite with someone else, just to make them think about what they believe....and cos I'm a wanker :D )...

We have a thing called the parades commission, and everything they do is wrong for somone. They can do no righ, and neither can the cops. At drumcree, the Police enforce the decision to stop the chaps marchin, and they are hated for it and attacked ( tho not this year). If they enforce a decision allowing them to pass ( usually tho not always an area where the locals are "trying it on", and not really in mortal peril), the locals attack them. As happened tonight in Belfast....cops taking Molotov hits on behalf of the same cunts who'll be lobbing them at them in a week or two.

TBH, the huge majority of people here really don't care, and most of the ones that care don't have a clue (try explaining to a prod band member that his "flute" is a fyfe and that King Billie was a Catholic sent here partly on behlaf of the pope). Most of us want to get very drunk and dance til sunrise with anyone who's up for it. I mean I live in the UK (bit of Ireland), but I call myself Irish cos the Island seeps into you :).

As for Persecution of Catholics, it's been an on off thing. There were some real horrors through the ages, not least the spud famine ( they don't tell us in prod school that Ireland was full of non spud foods, just that the Irish werent allowed to eat em). Then again, what kicked off the civil rights movement and in turn the terrorism(well barring one or two things previous), was exactly what you're talking about, total domination by prods.

Each side has it;s legends, some are true,...."no catholics in the yard" (not so true anymore, but then there's precious few people of any kind in it, the titanic's berth lies empty) "no prods in TV" (that one still holds to an extent, especially at UTV where they have a couple of junior reporters who demand all the "nasty prod" stories so they can go and be painful about them.

And that's the core of it, people being whiney and painful about things long since past, playing tit for tat like stupid children.

It's about clever politicians stirring it to make money It's about clever paramilitary bosses on both sides meeting regularly to keep the people down in all the right areas, to the extent that the loyalist/nationalist divide is meaningless above a certain level, maintained as a smokescreen for mafiosa style activies (without the style) it's about drugs, childwhores and protection rackets. And it's about moronic intransigence on both sides allowing it all to happen, and govt.s without a bald fucking notion what to do ("hey lets pull troops straight out of a warzon and put them in a crowd control environment, then look surprised when bloody sunday happens"). And it IS about poverty, you'll never see a rich kid behind the barricades (it's not a cool thing to do like in the states where a lot of your anti-everything protesters seem to have 14 credit cards and Daddy's car). But it's about stupidity too. We've been poor most of our lives, not scratching in the dirt, but barely making it. And yet despite my mum's rather old fashioned views, neither me nor my brother has turned out to be a UVF moron....because we are not morons. Every person I ever met here with genuine hatred in their hearts for the other side.....was a sub Britney-spears moron, a barely living creature.

As long as their are poor morons and smart rich guys to string them along for God ( or whatever), so as to gain power for themselves, we'll have rioters and terrorists.

As for charging to the defense of Islam, well it's more to balance the books cos there is always some nutter on the telly spitting blood about them. It IS fundamentally a religion of peace, like Christianity, but like CHristianity, it can be twisted. What makes it special is only their devotion to their relgion, easier to turn out an extremist if his faith, his tolerance of religious BS is higher, and his reason crushed, for no reasonable human being could commit these acts. Of course Islam has a responsibility to lay down the message firmly that this shit means you go to hell, but I do not believe it should be irradicated until all the other religions are purged and humanity gets moving again.

Oh agentwood, good point about Isreali palestine conflict, and well done everyone for realising that saying you think Isreal are being gits doesn't mean you have a problem with jews (no more or less than any other religion at any rate). And as I think I mentioned earlier, something like have of that mad bastard Saddam's party were Christian.

PS....seriously....whay does everyon hate "joysie". Even Orson Well's Radio Martians fecked the place up good.

404 error wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote: The man was acquitted, the woman was sentenced to death.

Since you're so good at googling, and since you are obviously such an apostle of mercy and truth.... Tell me please how many more times more likely a black skinned woman is to be executed than a white skinned man, in your own bastion and model of freedom, democracy and justice.

Oh and while we're on whacky religious laws.....Darwin? ILLEGAL in some states, forced to be read along side fairy tales in others. WOW, Glad I don't live in one of those oppressive Muslim Countries.

I don't think Muslims are very keen on Darwin either. One of the many things fundy Christians and Muslims agree on. Its really quite suprising the two groups don't get on.

Well at least we agree that Christians and muslims are both uneducated scum then.

Steve Campbell wrote: PS....seriously....whay does everyon hate "joysie". Even Orson Well's Radio Martians fecked the place up good.

Imagine you're in London...the greatest city in the world, filled with writers, artists, poets, musicians, filmmakers. The rich & the powerful, the captains of industry, powerhouse attorneys and financiers. The little people: waiters, cooks, bike messengers. And the common and cheap, the thugs, petty hoodlums, lowlifes. Soaring architecture, modest homes, and rundown slums.

Now, just outside of London, across the county line, there's a place where all the petty hoodlums go when they get enough money to live in suburbs. A place where corruption and bribery are a way of life. A place where organized crime goes to dump the bodies. A place where everybody is on the make, always looking for a way to put one over on you. A place with all of London's ugliness, and none of its greatness. A place London sends its trash, literally and figuratively.

That's New Jersey.

nope, it's Bangor. Aw shite :)

You wouldn't mind the Martians torchin the place then?

Actually, that's what'd sort us out...Martians, not tom cruise poncey ones, real nasty Wellsian bastard martians, teach humanity a lesson.

I hate that new Movie, it leaves out everything Wells was trying to say...ALL of it, and people need the particular wisdom of the novel rammed down their necks just now.

Thinking of writing to Bush to tell him that he should not allow foreign influences in Hollywood, cos it could pervert the pure American soul, that way they might not re-write and remake everything ever written or made everywhere in the world, into the same crap movie they've made for years.

I mean serioulsy, "the italian job"....is not just fast and furious...and is NOT in Italy, I mean HUH?

Course it wont stop them fucking over America classics, but that's your own fight guys :)

Of course, just a stereotype, with enough truth to back it up. ;)

Steve Campbell wrote:

404 error wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote: The man was acquitted, the woman was sentenced to death.

I don't think Muslims are very keen on Darwin either. One of the many things fundy Christians and Muslims agree on. Its really quite suprising the two groups don't get on.

Well at least we agree that Christians and muslims are both uneducated scum then.

Not my opinion. Though it does seem to be that the more forcefully someone expresses their piety the more lacking in self control and genuine morality they are likely to be.

Well with the ranting I do here that puts me somewhere between Home Simpson and Bender.

Steve Campbell wrote: nope, it's Bangor. Aw shite :)

steve, i've been to new jersey and northern ireland; believe me--northern ireland smells a lot better. even the bogside is a treasure compared to newark!;)

ROFLMAO. You never smelled the Lagan before they cleaned it. Egads that was rough.

So in short, if the universe ever needs an enema, it's NOT coming here? WOW.

(Hey terrorists....you hear that?.....that's people laughing.....you lose, bye now)

Ive rowed the Lagan. Much nicer river than the Liffey.

Then again - that isnt saying much.

NOW, mayhaps, but in the 70's/most of the 80's it was an open sewer, you could smell the bugger from hollywood 5 miles away, so bad that people wound car windows up on hot summer days.

It's amazing how much civic pride sprung up here when the worst of the bombings stopped. I think prior to that everyone thought "what's the point in doing anything nice for this place, someone will just fuck it up".

I mean, can you imagine the fun even the average fertilizer bomb would have with The Waterfront Hall?

Just thinking, they used to say the most secure job in the world was to be a glazier in NI, bet they're all on the dole now :)

FWIW, I prefer Dublin to Belfast. Dublin's nice bits are much nicer, and it's ugly bits much uglier, but it has so much more of an open, friendly feel to it.....and it doesn't f*ing shut at 1800 hrs. The only thing that puts me off Dublin is the thought of running into some spides who'll hear the accent and cleave our skulls. I hear that basically the naturally placid nature of most southern folk is balanced by the dublin spide being one of the most vicious strains in these islands.

im curious has there been a sudden increase in bandwagon patriotism since the bombings. It was obcene the way it happen here. Its the new religion.

Spide? Explain.

Spide: Chav/ned/townie nasty tracksuited, argos jewelery encrusted, terminally stupid wankers who hit people for nothing. http://www.chavscum.co.uk/ sadly the site has been ruined by spides who think it's cool to be a spide and WANT to be on it. Also ....google for "belfast spide generator" and try not to completely piss yourself, since you been here, you'll totally get it.

Not sure what exactly you're saying LeeHarvey. If you;re referring to the sorts of things I said about them doing London no harm, I stand by that, LIke NYC, London is "nails", and it takes more than a few god-fuckwitts to do it any lasting damage, rendering their murders pointles to their cause and all the more disgusting.

EDIT: Maybe you mean the crazy flag obsession that swept the US post WTC, and the kinds of "You're a terrorist" response that anyone who raises even the slightest question about Govt actions gets? Aint seen anything simillar here yet, but then the Brits have a different sort of Patriotism, deeper seated somehow, I suppose it comes from having been impregnable to a large extent for 1000 years. We also have a hell of a tradition of taking the piss mercilessly out of our leaders, and often just saying "look mate, you;re wrong and you're a fuckwitt" will get you cheered rather than locked up. Mind you, things are changin....where the US leads, the UK will surely follow.

You hit it right Steve, in the bottom paragraph. A warped sense of patriotism has crept into to american life. If you dont support the president, then you dont support the troops, and you have empathy towards the terriosts. Also, the reacurring belief by some that it is our duty to fight for other's liberty. Having bling faith in the president. The president has been granted way too much power in this century, and its time to cut the executive branch down to size. Our founding fathers envisioned the legislative branch having more power and influence then the executive branch.

Their's hope on the way, americans look like their finally waking up. Recent polls show that the war is the major issue now, over the economy. Bush's approval rating is getting lower, around 42%, and both parties have negative approval ratings. The latter one has never happen before. It looks like vietnam is happening all over again.

btw, patriotism is displayed in my avatar, when a war is based on lies.

History trivia question:

Where was the british's american base during the revolution war?

Sorry, i love history triva.

The first to get it right gets my enduring admiration.

Clockwork C wrote: Ive rowed the Lagan. Much nicer river than the Liffey.

Then again - that isnt saying much.

back to rowing for a minute: in college we rowed on the harlem river, which separates manhattan from the bronx, and unless you've rowed past a mattress, a cadillac, a bloated pig, a severed human head, and had bodies wash up on your dock, you've yet to experience the true joy of crew! :D

LOL@ agent....the lagan had a few bodies in it, but it specialized in burned out cars, hundreds of em. Oh, and rats, which were the only living thing in it. there's even fish there now.

The best is the Chicago river, they just dye the fooker green :)

LeeHarvey, it's good to hear that some of you guys actually listen to the message of your forefathers rather than learning to recite (and in adulthood, manipulate) the words.

I always said the one thing that would stop the US becoming a totalitarian state is the Govt's own propaganda. If they keep telling you guys you're the epitome of a free society, that you;re always right and never make the slighest mistake ever, it is infinitely more likely that any given individual will one day discover a piece of irefutable evidence that all is not as he/she has been told and say "wait a fookin minute here", then start excercising some of the freedoms they have. It's almost analagous to how drug propaganda can lead to people trying much harder things than otherwise they would. They tell you all drugs are evil, all the same (except the taxable sort), so one day you smoke a joint. You don't rape your granny, steal car or set fire to your friends. In fact you eat some sweeties, drink tea and giggle a lot. a light comes on..."holy fuck, they lied to me", and at that point there is a real danger in adopting the same approach to all drugs. Thus you get people foolin round with coke or heroine or meth or whatever, because they were told that pot was every bit as bad as those, and pot turned out to be ok.

Same thing in politics. The more a goverment tries to build an impenetrable edifice, the more likely that someone will see a crack and pull it all down. it can happen in the worst of countries, and since the average yank is neither lilly-livered or quite as thick as we like to joke over hear, AND given the particular brand of propaganda used (keep sayin it folks, we're free)....Bush and chums are walking a fine line and playing a dangerous game.

I just hope the awakening is peaceful and political, not that you guys have a thing for over-reacting or anything, but you know, with all those guns around, and all that (hopelessly weak ) beer, you never know :)

It's really good to see people from NYC with such balanced thinking, it sorta proves my point about Mr bin Laden and all being, well, a bit sad and delusional. I have this mental image of the entire populace of the city, speaking as one in the voice of a rough cabby...."yeah osama, i got yer jihad right here!!!" and making obscene gestures, I rather like it :)

Tony is starting to run his cabinet like a president, MP's are being sacked and punished for questioning even the most mundane of policies, and no one seems to be screaming "excuse me this is NOT how we do things in this country". The house of Lords is under constant attack. While some consider it a terrible thing to have, i think it's good, firstly because if you are landed and moneyed by heritage you ar less likely to give a fuck for stupid political games, and less likely to be bribed. And secondly, it is the closest thing we have to the US system of checks and balances ( which if you don't mind me saying, aint working too well just now, or mayhaps it's the only reason we aren't all radioactive cinders?). Tony wants rid of the house of Lords and until he gets rid of it, he's doing his best to hamstring it by filling it full of as many of his own robosheep as possible.

It's weird, I dunno what people are really like on a day to day basis in the states these days, but here as long as everone has a cool phone and an annoying ringtone, no one gives a fuck about anything beyond who jordan is shaggin or how much they wanna shag 50cent.

err. I suppose that beats the Liffey. No Human Heads in our fair river - altough there is just about everything else there.

I think the Lagan wouldve beaten any river for bodies some years back. We did pass an Oil Rig though - that was fairly fucking scary I can tell you.

leeharveyoswald1963 wrote: History trivia question:

Where was the british's american base during the revolution war?

Sorry, i love history triva.

The first to get it right gets my enduring admiration.

I think (without lookin' it up) that would be New York.

Steve Campbell wrote: Same thing in politics. The more a goverment tries to build an impenetrable edifice, the more likely that someone will see a crack and pull it all down. it can happen in the worst of countries, and since the average yank is neither lilly-livered or quite as thick as we like to joke over hear, AND given the particular brand of propaganda used (keep sayin it folks, we're free)....Bush and chums are walking a fine line and playing a dangerous game.

A good example being the Twin Towers being replaced by the Freedom Tower. :barf:

Personally, I prefer a nice pair of twins. :D

It's really good to see people from NYC with such balanced thinking, it sorta proves my point about Mr bin Laden and all being, well, a bit sad and delusional. I have this mental image of the entire populace of the city, speaking as one in the voice of a rough cabby...."yeah osama, i got yer jihad right here!!!" and making obscene gestures, I rather like it :)

And don't forget taking him out back in the alley to have a nice friendly chat.

LOL, yeah a LONG chat. While I, and many others, are not into carpet bombing and opression of states, I SINCERELY doubt you'd hear too many voices raised if you fitted him with a nice pair of lead sneakers and dropped him off the brooklyn bridge, although THAT would made the Hudson INSTANTLY the stinkiest most polluted river.

The brit base was up that end of things I know that, cos it rains more, made em feel at home.

Remember seeing a movie or tv show, and someone said.... "Remember, the next time you're out on the 4th of july, you;re celebrating the fact that a bunch of rich white slave owners didn't want to pay their taxes any more" or something like that.A little harsh perhaps.

Glad to know Bush aint programmed you ALL, maybe the future DOES hold more NASA and less NSA (you like that? that's a wee clever thing I thought up :) )

On a more serious note, things are getting really bloody orwellian over there. How far are you from hearing things like "freedom is slavery" and "peace is war". Add to that, the fact that the C in C believes the world will end in God's fire, that he and his nation are holy, and that he has a big red button that may as well be marked "God's fire on demand".

Mind you, i watched an edition of Penn and Teller's fine show "bullshit" recently that showed what passes for an opposition to the right.....oh boy....it was about racism in some school and OMG there was this black teacher and he was the most bitter, shoulder chipped nasty old racist i ever seen. The students lived in a thought controlled environment, terrified to express any opinion....kinda skuppers the point of a college or uni really. We had a lot of that on the mainland in the 80 "looney left" councils going beyond equal rights and well into postitive discrimination and minority domination.....you only got the teching job if you were black lesbian unmarried mother with a leg missing, that sort of thing. It sort of went away as the draconian laws it was a reaction to softenned a little, and people got sick of all their local taxes going on insane schemes to benefit 1% of the population.

There are times when I think south park should be on the ciriculum over there, those guys just devastate everyone, fair, even handed and ruthless :)

BTW, Belfast is so ugly it doesn't have any pics on google earth. And only North of the River is shown in Dublin....tell me that doesn't mean those places I pass on the train from Belfast on the North side aren't the worst PLEASE.

leeharveyoswald1963 wrote: History trivia question:

Where was the british's american base during the revolution war?

Sorry, i love history triva.

The first to get it right gets my enduring admiration.

Here's a trivia question for YOU, Mr. Trivia:

In which state did the British retain some posts following the American revolution, and in what year did the British leave those posts?

You guys have do a little better then that! The british base was in New YOrk but thats very general. The british base was in staten island, where i happen to work.

Working on the new question.

Remember when we observe columbus day, we are celebrating the genocide of indians.

my indian friends dont mine being called this

leeharveyoswald1963 wrote: Working on the new question.

My old, tired eyes made me inadvertently miss a few forts. There were some in a (new) state following the revolution, and some in territories that were not yet states.

Oh FFS, now every fucking moron kid with a chemistry set thinks he's fucking bin laden. Then again, that's based on what the Police are saying and they lied through their teeth last time (I found that really odd, the whole coverage was completely different from previous terrorist murders in the UK, all mobile phones pics and members of the public spouting their ill informed "eye witness" reports while no real info was given,).

Anyway, hope yous are all alright.

just noticed the fucking RETARD BBC are streaming people's sms mewlings accross their screen......some say "we're scared"....nice one Beeb, why not just put up a headline saying "congratulations, you;ve won". Dickheads.

I hate to say it but they may have to turn london into Belfast....you wont like it, closed streets, constant police harassment, town centres curfewed. In fact since they seem to be saying the IRA weren't really trrorists, presumably the measures London's about to witness will be worse. Bollox...assholes 1 humanity 0

Back to Jonathan's original question, I was thinking the South might have been what you were referring to. It is acknowledged that the fiercest fighting of the Revolution took place down here in the Carolinas, Virginia, and Georgia. A lot of it was partisans, not an organized force, on both sides, with the Brits coming in with Tarleton and Cornwallis. Some of the bloodiest fighting of the war took place on King's Mountain, where a hastily-raised Loyalist force was ambushed and slaughtered by American militiamen. Again, neither side was organized along the lines of a regular army, more of a militia force.

Anyway, just wanted to get that in there...

Steve Campbell wrote: Oh FFS, now every fucking moron kid with a chemistry set thinks he's fucking bin laden. Then again, that's based on what the Police are saying and they lied through their teeth last time (I found that really odd, the whole coverage was completely different from previous terrorist murders in the UK, all mobile phones pics and members of the public spouting their ill informed "eye witness" reports while no real info was given,).

Anyway, hope yous are all alright.

just noticed the fucking RETARD BBC are streaming people's sms mewlings accross their screen......some say "we're scared"....nice one Beeb, why not just put up a headline saying "congratulations, you;ve won". Dickheads.

I hate to say it but they may have to turn london into Belfast....you wont like it, closed streets, constant police harassment, town centres curfewed. In fact since they seem to be saying the IRA weren't really trrorists, presumably the measures London's about to witness will be worse. Bollox...assholes 1 humanity 0

i know--five more bombings. or 'detonations,' i should say. pain in the ass for commuters, more like it.

quite right, don't dignify the fuckers :)

Anyway.....I suppose you could say that in current newspeak both forces in the revolution were "unlawful combatants". Don't reckon either side has too much to crow about on that one anyway, for every great and noble battle fought and won bravely, there were a dozen nasty inhuman bloodbaths (not that there was a great deal of difference....muskets and cannon not being the cleanest of weaponry).

It's odd we still get on after all that, with little more than us calling you thick, fat and loud (which you are obviously), and you calling us ugly, crooked toothed, pussies ( which , of course, we are)

:)

PS if I see one more BBC newsticker with "LATEST:2+2=4" "JUST-IN:Water is wet" I'm going to strangle someone. Can anyone else remember when the BBC was for people who could read and write? Is Chris Morris secretly in charge and pissing himself that no one's noticed?

Steve Campbell wrote:

Can anyone else remember when the BBC was for people who could read and write?

erm...you've obviously never seen any american networks, then.

the BBC is world famous for its quality programming. yes, there are certainly turds in there, but it produces some damn fine shows, as well.

PS if I see one more BBC newsticker with "LATEST:2+2=4" "JUST-IN:Water is wet" I'm going to strangle someone.

chill man

Kept having a bit of WotW floating round in my head ( I may be misquoting)... "The Daily papers printed special editions, puffing scraps of news under enormous headlines, some printed them even in default of freah news.....a boy was running through the streets selling the still wet papars for sixpence, a grotesque mix of prophet and panic" The one that really got me was "these people intended to cause death"...I thought "fuck me I thought they'd come in to town for some flower arranging".

PS, dying to hear the US response to the Guantanamo hunger strikes....I seem to recall their position that last time a murdering terrorist cunt decided to starve his unworthy ass to death was "you're barbarians let that lovely man go". So, since the US Govt. are in ho WAY hypocrits who would dare not to practice their preachings, I expect them to treat these guy PRECISELY the way they told us to treat Robert Sands or any of his murserous bretherin....ie let them go free. But then again it was the US who objected to the Brits using imprisonment without trial for "unlawful combatants".

I am getting really sick of hearing here and on the news that the IRA never existed, it's all un-history....3500 dead UK soldiers and civilians are not as important as some botched blasts. Thank God Ken Lifingstone said more or less "yeah qwankers have tried to fuck us over before, fuck em" and reminded people that they are pussies and that this ysed to happen every week and no one did anything about it.....apart from give the terrorists jobs in Govt, I'm sorry if I sound angry and bitter but I am. Mopre coverage was given to the burnig of cattle than the Omagh bomb cos we're only scum here. Oh....someone earlier wanted to play a numbers game saying "omagh was nothing cos 2x as many people died in London"....Well I have news for you....there are more than 12 million people in London, and barely 50,0000 in Omagh......do that math and tell me which town took a bigger hit.

To be perfectly Honest....given that these bombs today failed to detonate....it probably WAS the IRA....even if they found a irish triclolour with "death to the brits" on it, they'd still find SOME way to drops bombs on little brown children while saying how much better than them we are.

PS, if you want to shout at me, or argue.....I'm only listening to people who've had their hometown's ( not a couple of buildings thanks. the whole town centre) razed to the ground 4 or more times, and have lost at least 2 close family friends (you get extra points if their internal organs were blown over their children like my dad's best mate one sunday morning on his way to church) since they are the only ones with any right to decry me.

PS, yanks, it's your Govt. I'm talkin about, not you guys, especially not the ones here, top notch chaps and chapesses all of you. And to be honest I'm a lot more angry with blair, he'll bomb some children for this.....for the IRA, he gave them jobs.

Feeling better now as the BBC are now scrolling the sorts of messgaes the shoulda been scrollin all day "bite me balls osama" "whatever, this is londond dipshit" Ok not in those words, but it's what they mean.

I say we arm Ken Livingstone.

Silly bastards didn;t manage to kill themselves either, that's a but of bad luck for them, I just hope they don;t lock em up in a special prison....pop em in with all the east end gangsters I say.

AgentWood wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote:

Can anyone else remember when the BBC was for people who could read and write?

erm...you've obviously never seen any american networks, then.

the BBC is world famous for its quality programming. yes, there are certainly turds in there, but it produces some damn fine shows, as well.

That's what I always tell people who rant about how clueless the general population is about non-us affairs. People here think because we get REASONABLY balanced news from all accross the world, that you guys get it too and must just be really f*in stoopid to come away with these "conclusions" :)

I mean I hear they are not allowed to show or refer to US casualities? is that really true? it must be enough to make many people think "what freedoms exactly is it we're defending here?". I've also hear that only one american network showed the cruise missile attack on the market in the early part of the war...and that it was FOX????? ( presumably the chance to show blood and gore shook their party loyalty a little).

Much o0f what causes SO many Europeans to get nasty with yanks is that they often come accross as.....damn I can't find the right word....it's like loads of people over there really DO think that the US army danderered into bagdhad, welcome as old family friends, and started passing out coke, blue jeans and ipods, only to be shocked that some very odd people would not like that and start attacking them. That is often perceived as you being genuinely arrogant, hateful and blind. But if you ONLY ever see that version of things, how can you think any differently. As I understand it, for a US citizen to get access to the same range of info that we get daily, they are forced to go to fringe channels and websites that are considered subversive or "far left".

I think we're very unfair on you as a people to be honest,

I remember, just after sept11, a russian guy I know took all this abuse like "I bet you're glad" and "how dare you lot leave wreathes on our embassy steps, you were stoning it 4 months ago". His reply is one of the wisest most poignant things I ever read..... "the rocks were for your government. The flowers are for your people"

Steve Campbell wrote: I hear they are not allowed to show or refer to US casualities? is that really true? it must be enough to make many people think "what freedoms exactly is it we're defending here?".

The government of the "world's greatest democracy" won't allow anybody to take photos of the flag-draped coffins coming home to Dover.

They say it's to respect the privacy of the families, but nobody complains about the news crews at the flag-waving funerals where some poor family is on national news trying to rationalize how their kid's death was worth it.

Y'know point scoring aside, that's truly sad. brave men and women signup to defend the land they love, end up dying in someone another country that has never attacked the US, to make some wanker richer, AND then they have that scarifice denied. Much as I don't care for michael Moore (if he made penny number 1 from that 911 movie, he is an accessory to terrorism), he was right when he asked of american youth "will they ever trust us again".

Pox be upon those who sent them to their meaningless deaths.

And as for crews at funerals, they ought to be ashamed of themselves....have the media no respect at all?

EDIT: they always sent crews to paramilitary funerals here....but that was fine, cos the cunts in the church and around it had no respect anyway, letting terrorists fire volleys of shots over graves.....rival terrorists throwing grenades at mourners. Actually I got a US show taken off the air here. It was one of those ones with that guy who I can only call "sherriff teeth"....cheesey lookin fucker, always does police chase shows and does his to-camera links in these really funny faked crimescenes. One of his shows was on Bravo here, and was referring to the attack by michael stone[1] on an IRA funeral......he called Stone a terrorist but referred to the other terrosist scum, the best sort, the dead sort, the ones going in the ground as "brave soldiers of the IRA". Either they're both soldiers or both terrorists, they're the exact same people. SO I wrote to Bravo and the broadcastin standards people asking if the dialogue could be ammended.....and got a letter back from each saying the show had been removed from Bravo's Hard Drive and would never be seen in the UK again. Possibly this was I threatenned to inform the office of homland security in the US about his support of terrorists.

Apparenly I'm a hero in all the local TV stations for doing it ( my mate's a camera man and took the letter round everywhere showing it to all the other techies....just a shame we werent having the whole worl'ds media here or I'd be an international celebrity by now :) )

[1]That murdering cunt was standing just up from my house a coupla days ago taking pics of the parades, he's out cos he found god and getting rich doing paintings of cell doors. He's lucky my mum only told me he was there after he'd gone (deliberately I assume), cos I'd love to see how HE'D like his quiet day to go all wrong. EDIT: hmmmm that looks like I'm saying i'm brave...I aint, but I am gobby (u may have noticed) and viciously quick tempered,especially considering me current condition.....chances are I'd have yelled "oi cunt, fuck off" and been beaten snesless by 100's of 'em (after all, the man who threw grenades at a funeral's a bloody hero to thse dipshits). I also suffer a "Captin Kirk Complex" after more than 3 drinks....I go psychotic when I see men mistreating women....trouble is I can't fight so I usually end up on me arse covered in blood.

what i can't stand is how the american media always looks at how the london bombings affect us americans. i think that's terrible and the media here always has to spin others misfortunes to make us the center of attention. how pitiful

james williams wrote: what i can't stand is how the american media always looks at how the london bombings affect us americans. i think that's terrible and the media here always has to spin others misfortunes to make us the center of attention. how pitiful

Well, normally I'd agree. But since it's brittain, I got no sympathy (for the REPORTING that is, before anyone reads that wrong) We INEVENTED the racist,navel-gazing news, even before you lot ( which I realise is gobsmacking, given the usual US-held belief tha the rest of the world is a series of tiny islands off the US coast.....which is why it's so darned hard to drop the bombs on the right country).

"200,000 peope killed, no britons involved.....and in more important news, tim henman, hit a ball back to his opponent today"

And even inside their own country....4 bombs used to go off in Belfast in a single day a coupla times a month, barely got a mention. Endless slaughters here (over the whole period of "the troubles" it works out to about 2 stiffs a week, but there were LONG quiet years and a LOT of casualtyless bombings, so in active times the running total was much higher.

the mainland news....if someone in london received minor injuries ( like they lost the hair on their forearm) because of an IRA letter bomb....headline news..STOP PRESS. But 5 of the boghoppers getting turned into chunky salsa while out shopping.....THAT got put in between Di[1]'s new dress and some panda who couldn't get it up. So don't feel bad about your news, for once you guys can take the high ground and deserve it :)

BTW several million points to "red ken" for pointing out that "London survived the IRA, now would everybody fuck up and stop doing what these wankers want" (OK, I paraphrased a little)

[1] I actually got a documentary that had something about her in it, made before she was squished. I'm SO glad cos it's proof of the rewriting of history. Before she died, the Brits fucking detested her, soon as she coupa they love her, and deny there was ever any other sentiment towards her.