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bLuE oRdEr wrote: AgentWood, have you ever read the Peoples History series of American history by Page Smith? Seven or eight volumes. A lot of reading, but very good reading.
nope. i'm not really that into american history, actually, although i loved robert mcnamara's 'in retrospect.' if it's about the latter half of the 20th century i might be more interested, but nothing puts me to sleep faster than a book on the civil war.
what is the thesis of this series?
The thing is, you really get an understanding of how we got where we are from reading it (I've barely scratched the surface of the series); what people believed, what they were doing. Not necessarily consistent with the mythology that passes for history in this country. I'm curious to read abot the revolutionary period (European history) from 1789 to 1848, and then read about the American period from about the 1870's to WWI, because a lot of immigrants brought tose ideals to America. There's a lot of history in this country that's been buried by the right wing. You can get a sense of that from Howard Zinn, but Page Smith is a much better historian, in my opinion.
Thesis: Not sure, I've barely touched it so far. I'll get back to you on that.
bLuE oRdEr wrote: High and Mighty, currently. Expose of SUVs.
Sounds like something I'd be interested in. Went to the local Boys And Girls Club a couple of months ago, while working, and it was bloody hard trying to get around those things in the parking lot. Going by the action inside the gym at the time, I'd say of the 50 rigs in the lot, at least 40 of 'em had only two occupants, the mother and one kid, on their way there.
Haven't checked to see if John Irving's new book is out yet, he seems to alternate one really good one and one mediocre one; I didn't care much for The Fourth Hand.
In the meantime, Tell My Horse, by Zora Neale Thurston, about voodoo and life in Haiti and Jamaica, is next on my list.
Oh yeah, Head On by Julian is a terrific read as well, the toothbrush in the shower scene made me laugh, and very glad that that wasn't in my house.
[darkgreen]Green[/darkgreen] wrote:
bLuE oRdEr wrote: High and Mighty, currently. Expose of SUVs.
Sounds like something I'd be interested in. Went to the local Boys And Girls Club a couple of months ago, while working, and it was bloody hard trying to get around those things in the parking lot. Going by the action inside the gym at the time, I'd say of the 50 rigs in the lot, at least 40 of 'em had only two occupants, the mother and one kid, on their way there.
It's highly recommended-- well-written, the guy has interviewed the key players, the top auto industry people, he gets into the auto companies' own psychological profiles of SUV buyers, the politics that created the loopholes that auto manufacturers are exploiting to put these things on the road, the safety myths (they're actually more dangerous vehicles, to their occupants and to other drivers). A very, very interesting read.
Taboo # 7 wrote:
300 pages into Ball Four, a classic of sports literature.
A total classic. That really pissed a lot of people off back in the day, not that I minded the demystification of such things as "role models" 
even though I was just a kid.
It fit right along side Curt Flood's attempt for free agency and the right of players to gain some say in where they were employed; first there was that, and then along comes this "tell-all" tale that shines a light behind the public facade of baseball. Serves 'em right for letting Bud Selig steal the Pilots from Seattle and forcing me to become a Mets fan......;) 
BTW Tabsy, it was also a TV sitcom, on ABC I think, in the mid 70s. Jim Bouton starred in it, it wasn't nearly as racy as the book was, but I still liked to watch it, much more that than something like Welcome Back Kotter.
[darkgreen]Green[/darkgreen] wrote:
Taboo # 7 wrote:
300 pages into Ball Four, a classic of sports literature.
A total classic. That really pissed a lot of people off back in the day, not that I minded the demystification of such things as "role models"
It fit right along side Curt Flood's attempt for free agency and the right of players to gain some say in where they were employed; first there was that, and then along comes this "tell-all" tale that shines a light behind the public facade of baseball. Serves 'em right for letting Bud Selig steal the Pilots from Seattle and forcing me to become a Mets fan......;)
BTW Tabsy, it was also a TV sitcom, on ABC I think, in the mid 70s. Jim Bouton starred in it, it wasn't nearly as racy as the book was, but I still liked to watch it, much more that than something like Welcome Back Kotter.
At first I was like "okay, this is all common knowledge now" about the hijinks, but then I recalled that sports books in those days didn't talk about those sort of things. It became much more of a guilty pleasure when I realized that, and Bouton is a damn good writer for a jock.
I stumbled across "Ball Four" the TV show while looking at JumpTheShark for something, and read some of the comments there. I wouldn't mind a chance to see some of it, even if it's not as open as the book. I can't imagine "beaver shooting" on television circa 1976, but I wonder if anyone thought to option it as a movie.
AgentWood wrote:
bLuE oRdEr wrote: AgentWood, have you ever read the Peoples History series of American history by Page Smith? Seven or eight volumes. A lot of reading, but very good reading.
nope. i'm not really that into american history, actually, although i loved robert mcnamara's 'in retrospect.' if it's about the latter half of the 20th century i might be more interested, but nothing puts me to sleep faster than a book on the civil war.
what is the thesis of this series?
Here's an excerpt where he come the closest to discussing a "thesis," from Volume Six, The Rise of Industrial America, covering the period from about 1870-1900:
History is so vast, chaotic, and in the final analysis, incomprehensible that the historian's almost irrepressible impulse is to "tidy it up." He commonly approaches the writing of it as though he uderstood it (or at least the segment which he has selected for specialized investigation or "research"). He has a businesslike, no-nonsense determination to kick or hammer it into some shape commonly called a thesis or hypothesis. I have seen it at least in part my function to "untidy" our past, to reveal it as the strange, crude, and often violent events or congeries of events it in fact was. I am at the same time well aware that I cannot myself avoid some ordering of that mysterious concatenation of facts...But the narrative historian, committed, above all, to viewing history through the eyes of the men and women who made it, will take comfort in Erich Auerbach's comment that the story of the past fully and fairly told must contain all possible theories to its meaning (the past, after all, is our only source for theories about meaning). We may not make meaning or meanings explicit or even be aware that there is/are meaning/meanings, but they will be there for readers and critics to discern.Certainly for me the most intoxicating aspect of history is listening to the marvelously resonant voices of our predecessors and entering into a kind of fellowship with the dead. I see my role rather as that of the doorman who announces to the guest, "Lord and Lady Salisbury; Mr. Alexander Berkman and Ms. Emma Goldman; Mr. William James and Ms. Jane Addams; Mr. William Haywood," or the cruise director who encourages the guests on the SS History to mix and get to know each other better. Or the stage manager of that inexhaustible and tragic drama we call history.My intention is to stuff into this chapter themes and topics that I have dealt with in earlier volumes but that, for the most part, have not found a convenient lodging place in this one, and also to add some reflections on the war between capital and labor...The curse of slavery was not limited to the slaves and slaveholders or, indeed, to the South. It lay at the heart of the states' rights doctrine, which constantly impeded efforts to deal with national problems on a national level. The fact was that the only thing that hindered the effective use of the powers of the Federal government to ensure some modest degree of social justice was the mischievous doctrine of states' rights, which had shielded the institution of slavery from the earliest days of the Republic and, after the demise of slavery, was used to deny the former slaves their rights as citizens and to block all efforts to impose effective checks on rampant capitalism.But of course, this is only half the story. Political theory bows to political reality. There were a great many Americans of all classes and sections who understood perfectly well hat states' rights was, in most instances, a code word for reactionary politics. Until the state and Federal courts were captured by the capitalists, staffed with corporation lawyers, and subverted to the end of protecting privilege, the courts gave short shrift to states' rights. So the problem was not simply that capitalism masqueraded as a tender regard for the rights of the states; it was that those of a quite different persuasion, primarily the embattled farmers and workingmen and women of the nation, were unable to form an alliance that could take power and install a new ideology, one that would encourage the Federal government to intervene both to protect the rights of the residents of the individual states and to pass Federal legislation to improve the lot of workers and farmers and, indeed, any group in the society that suffered from inequities that were a consequence of the social arrangements that were highly beneficial to others. In a word-- justice.
Some Chapter titles:
bLuE oRdEr wrote: The thing is, you really get an understanding of how we got where we are from reading it (I've barely scratched the surface of the series); what people believed, what they were doing. Not necessarily consistent with the mythology that passes for history in this country. I'm curious to read abot the revolutionary period (European history) from 1789 to 1848, and then read about the American period from about the 1870's to WWI, because a lot of immigrants brought tose ideals to America. There's a lot of history in this country that's been buried by the right wing. You can get a sense of that from Howard Zinn, but Page Smith is a much better historian, in my opinion.
Thesis: Not sure, I've barely touched it so far. I'll get back to you on that.
i'd recommend anything by kenneth jackson. he was my history of the city of new york professor at columbia and his was the most popular class at the university (for good reason). he's the expert on NYC history and he's absolutely fascinating. he worked with scorcese on gangs of new york as an advisor and he also runs walking tours of the lower east side tenements and brooklyn's crown heights district, etc.; he's very involved in keeping immigrant history alive. i took al jarvis, johnny giles, and pompeyorder on a tenement tour when we were in NYC, but jackson wasn't our tour guide--it turns out it was a high school classmate of mine instead! he edited the huge 'encyclopedia of new york city' with a number of students i knew from college, and it's a great reference book. i don't know what else he's written, but i'd check amazon as i'm sure he's written several books. he also appeared in ken burns' 'baseball' series for PBS (i guess he knows a lot about baseball, too). anyway, he deals more with the social side of history than the political side.
fascinating man with fascinating stories. especially since he's from the deep south originally!
p.s. have you read bury my heart at wounded knee or guns, germs, and steel?
AgentWood wrote:
bLuE oRdEr wrote: The thing is, you really get an understanding of how we got where we are from reading it (I've barely scratched the surface of the series); what people believed, what they were doing. Not necessarily consistent with the mythology that passes for history in this country. I'm curious to read abot the revolutionary period (European history) from 1789 to 1848, and then read about the American period from about the 1870's to WWI, because a lot of immigrants brought tose ideals to America. There's a lot of history in this country that's been buried by the right wing. You can get a sense of that from Howard Zinn, but Page Smith is a much better historian, in my opinion.
Thesis: Not sure, I've barely touched it so far. I'll get back to you on that.
i'd recommend anything by kenneth jackson. he was my history of the city of new york professor at columbia and his was the most popular class at the university (for good reason). he's the expert on NYC history and he's absolutely fascinating. he worked with scorcese on gangs of new york as an advisor and he also runs walking tours of the lower east side tenements and brooklyn's crown heights district, etc.; he's very involved in keeping immigrant history alive. i took al jarvis, johnny giles, and pompeyorder on a tenement tour when we were in NYC, but jackson wasn't our tour guide--it turns out it was a high school classmate of mine instead! he edited the huge 'encyclopedia of new york city' with a number of students i knew from college, and it's a great reference book. i don't know what else he's written, but i'd check amazon as i'm sure he's written several books. he also appeared in ken burns' 'baseball' series for PBS (i guess he knows a lot about baseball, too). anyway, he deals more with the social side of history than the political side.
fascinating man with fascinating stories. especially since he's from the deep south originally!
p.s. have you read bury my heart at wounded knee or guns, germs, and steel?
I'm gonna try for a fellowship in NYC later this year, so I'll keep Kenneth Jackson in mind if the fellowship happens-- it'll be at least somewhat relevant to the fellowship.
Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee-- yes, I've read that.
Guns, Germs, and Steel-- No, not yet, but I'd like to. I have read one of Jared Diamond's other works-- The Third Chimpanzee. That's very interesting. 
Jim Melly's "Last Orders Please" The Sory of Rod Stewart & The Faces. Picked it up from a market in Sheepshagland on Saturday for 3 quid!
Starts of with The Small Faces and delves into the lives of all the members of both bands, I am up to 1972 just after Rod had a number 1 single and album simultaneously in both the UK & US, Fuckin riveting read - I read 170 pages on Sunday alone cos the cricket was washed oot.
Cannae praise the book highly enough, I have been playing The Faces and Dylan non stop for the last few days, two weeks of neworder and joydivision whilst painting and decorating finally took its toll ;)
I am right now re-reading Dad by W. Wharton. It's a great book, and I feel it touches me as much as it did when I first read it some 20 years ago!
Errr....been writing a lot lately instead of reading (got a few of my articles being published in the fall FINALLY).
As of recent reading,
"Trash Aesthetics" ed. by Cartmell, et al. (not a very good collection by any means, but a few decent articles)
"Defining Cult Movies" ed. by Mark Jancovich, et al. (excellent collection that kicks the crap out of the former)
and currently "Cutting Edge: Art-Horror and the Horrific Avant-Garde" by Joan Hawkins (great book!)
coming soon:
the philosophy of horror by noel carrol men, women, and chainsaws by carol clover figures of desire by linda williams and maybe god-forbid something fictional
I've been thieving audiobooks off bittorrent eveer since I found that staying horizontal makes my nasty little illness calm down. I can't actually read a book , because I find it really hard to get my mind in gear over all the pills, but audiobooks are the perfect solution. Actually I'm thinking ahead.....either I'll end up in hospital, where an mp3player full of books might just keep me sane. OR They're gonna give me these horrid pills called roaccutane (google for them, they look like so much fun), which will , among other things, make my eyes dry up[1]...so watching tv will become a chore.
Anyway, I have quite a collection now, books on science, politics, and some of the greatest classics.
What am I reading (listening to)? Harry potter LOL GF's been reading them and I figured that it might be nice for me to read them too so that when we're together I have something she knows about to bable on endlessly over. Instead of her having to listen to me bang on about New Order, Dr Who , the WotW and whatever THIS weeks passing obsession is.
After Harry I dunno....Either Asimov's foundation, or his collected robot stories, possibly some Arthur C Clarke, and maybe, if I'm feeling mental enough...Robert Rankin...tho I may ease myself in that direction with some pratchett and Adams first. Reckon I'm gonna leave things like "homer's odessy and illiad" until I'm either strapped to a bed, or too fooked up on nasty pills to care.
[1] Waiting on someone saying "bout time, we been telling you to dry your eyes for ages ya whingey fooker".
"Juicing The Game" by Howard Bryant-a history of Major League basebaall upto and since the 1994 strike. Think home runs, steroids, economics. Oustanding. Asks tough questions and does pull many punches
300 pages into Ball Four, a classic of sports literature.
Just a great book! Of course at the time it was assumed "what happens here, stays here" Talk about shattering illuions! It made Bouton a pariah for years. Of course not the conduct in "Ball Four" seems quaint, but no one likes having the doors of their clyb thrown open for all to see
I should have mentioned that I am also stalled half way through two autobiographies ,Tom Baker and Murray Walker, and cannot for the life of me work out which to start back into as soon as my brain allows. My sis is dying for me to read Professor Sid Watkins book as well....mainly on the grounds that he (as a respected neurosurgeon) really does wholeheartedly believe that F1 drivers 9 and race drivers in general) are clinical imbeciles. Wonder if he knows any drummers.
Still need to finish High and Mighty, but just picked up Bicycle: The History, because it was checked out for most of July, and I didn't want to miss my chance. Looks like another interesting read, with lots of sexy Gibson Girls to spice things up. 
Roowwwr!
the amazingly Good new Harry Potter book! No suprise there, its reads funny in some parts though. Interesting choice in grammer, but good nonetheless.
Vicious: Wolves and Men in America, by Jon Coleman. I took a look at it for the paper I'm writing. Turns out this guy is a really good writer. Worth reading. Here's a short piece by him: Death and Wheatgrass
leeharveyoswaldR.I.P.1963 wrote: prozac nation- elisabeth wurtzel
Good book.
Don't seem to be able to get into anything I've started reading lately. Might dig that one out from the shelf.
I picked up Gene Wilder's memoir Kiss Me Like A Stranger, it's pretty open and honest about his life. Of course, I would have liked more details about the movies he did with Mel Brooks and Richard Pryor, but his life is certainly interesting.
I'm also close to finishing The Jump, which is good because it was due back at the library today and I can probably finish it tonight/tomorrow morning and avoid late fees 
Went out today and found Belle and Sebastian: Just a Modern Rock Band, which I had to have.
I'm not sure I really want to pull back the veil on B&S, as they're one of the few bands that pull off "mystery" very well these days. But on the other hand, it looks like a good read, with co-operation from the band members themselves
