HERE WE GO AGAIN.

The guy shot was from Brazil. Maybe his only experience of police is that they randomly arrest and brutalise people... who knows???

Maybe thats why he got scared and ran. Maybe he didn't speak English as well...

Either way; 5 fucking bullets, when you're prone on the floor, is overdoing it big time.

1 bullet to the chest will make most people stop what they're doing.

Not if you (Eroneously) believe he's a wouldbe suicide bomber. You must destroy his ability to control his limbs totally, and 5 slugs would be one effective method of achieving that, there are many others, many of them much less "long term" in their effects......time for a strategic rethink.

And as was mentioned above, if he HAD been carrying a bomb, those guys would be lined up for commendations and hero worhsip.

What we need to find out is why they were tailing him in the first place (some mad old witch prolly phoned the cops about a "foreigner" lookin shifty), and what made them so sure he was a threat.....otehr than everyone being mega jumpy.

Steve Campbell wrote:

what made them so sure he was a threat......

why was he running away then?

No, I mean, Why were they tailing him, whay had an armed unit been called in.

AgentWood wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

AgentWood wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote: Only a brain-dead moron would run onto a tube train-- with the police in hot pursuit-- after being ordered to stop. What are the cops supposed to think? "Oh well, no point pursuing him now, he's on the tube, let's get back to looking for terrorists." He's dead because he didn't stop, and the cops weren't about to let a terrorist blow up another train right there in front of them. Yeah, afterwards it turns out he had no bomb, but how are the cops supposed to know that as he's running for the train? He's dead because he was an arse, not because the cops overreacted.

wow, let's just hope some poor sod who doesn't speak a word of english doesn't get into this situation. would he still be an arse then for not stopping?

seems to me the metropolitan police pulled a lillehammer today.

I've thought about that possibility. But. When I was in Serbia, which is about as close to a police state as I'vbe come, I barely understood any Serbian-- only the most rudimentary expressions. My friend and I were in a Post Office once, because we could go online there. I was trying to get something from the States-- one of my books for an exam, probably-- so I borrowed my friend's cell phone and called a friend in the States. Suddenly, a cop grabbed me by the elbow, and was saying something utterly incomprehensible to me. It turned out that my friend had been stopped by the cops for taking photos inside the post office, and they thought I was involved as well. In short, they thought we were spying. We didn't understand a word of what they were saying, and fortunately, had a Serb student there to translate for us, but I'll tell you what we didn't do-- ignore them, start running, start giving them a reason to escalate.

If the cops want to stop you the day after a train bombing, even if you don't speak their language, you need to think twice about the advisability of ignoring their commands and making a dash for the train.

Five cops piled on a guy that they believed was carrying a bomb. If he had been carrying a bomb, people would be calling them heroes today for shielding the blast with their bodies. Their actions were heroic, and the fact that he turned out not to be carrying a bomb-- and that's all we really know about him right now-- doesn't make their actions any less heroic. They thought he had a bomb, and instead of running for their lives, they piled on him. The only reason he's dead today is because he ran-- onto a train-- from police officers who were ordering him to stop.

from another perspective: i was entering a bank in nicaragua in january and i was stopped at the door by a police officer. i don't speak a word of spanish (well, hola) and he was obviously trying to tell me something very important, but i had no idea what it was. fortunately, he took pity on me and tried to mime what he wanted me to do. after about ten minutes of going back and forth with no luck, an english-speaking patron told me that he was asking me to please check my weapon and/or camera at the door, if i had one. he opened a box next to him and there were guns, cameras, etc. i put my throwaway camera in there, but i honestly had no idea what he was saying to me. i didn't know if i was in trouble, i didn't know if he wanted a bribe, i had no idea what he wanted. if it weren't for the interpreter i might have just ignored him and walked in--who knows what would have happened then?

i'm rather used to the everyday fear of terrorism--i lived in israel, for christ's sake--but i still think these police officers were jumping the gun. pun not intended.

I had a similar type experience with the bus driver when I left Serbia. He kept telling me to do something-- I had no idea what he wanted. He kept telling me in Serbian, as if that would clear things up. Then he switched to utterly incomprehensible gestures. Finally, an elderly woman helped me by showing me what he wanted-- he wanted me to move my bags to the other side of the bus.

I think the point of our mutual experiences is that if somebody-- especially cops or soldiers-- stops you, and you don't understand the language, the smart thing to do is to cooperate, instead of running for it.

I haven't read that the guy didn't speak English, but his family did say that he might have just been afraid of cops, coming from Brazil. A tragic end for him, apparently, but I hardly think the cops misbehaved. They had a split-second to decide what to do after he made a dash for the train. It's only day-after quarterbacking that tells us he didn't have a bomb.

If you come to London don't bring a rucksack, don't come from a country with an oppressive police force, don't get any kind of tan and most of all make sure you can speak English...

oh, you probably can't read this then - condolences to your family in advance...

i saw a program where police were showing off non-lethal methods for apprehending fleeing criminals. one was a giant gun that spat out a huge, flowing wad of sticky gum that essentially paralyzed the person.

i think it's time for these gum-ejaculating firearms. what do you think? it would save a life and bring some entertainment to law enforcement.

Well they'd do the trick. Fewer Darwin awards too. Mate of mine told me he heard an interview with the chap the ex-idiot was travellin with ,or one of his mates or something, and apparently he spoke excellent English. Dunno if that's true.

My family is from San Francisco, but I grew up in San Jose; spent most of my life there. There were probably two police shootings in my town in my entire previous life.

I moved to Portland five years ago, and suddenly there's one or two police shootings every year. The cops here are trigger-happy assholes, and no surprise here, their targets are unarmed black motorists. Well, except for the last guy, he wasn't driving a car, and he did have a knife. The problem is, inevery single instance, the cops adopted a shoot-to-kill tactic as their first response to a problem. The unarmed black motorist, whom the cops recognized, and knew by name (and whom, therefore, they could go round to visit at her home later) is coked out, and tries to start the car up again, so they lean in and shoot to kill. The unarmed black motorist, high on something, reaches in his pocket, the cops order him to pull his hand out of his pocket, and as he does exactly what they order him to do, they empty their guns and their tasers into him. The last guy is obviously mentally ill, high on drugs, and armed with a knife, kicking over garbage cans downtown. The cops approach him, he charges, and they empty their guns. In every single instance since I've been here, the cops have chosen lethal force as their first alternative, when there are clearly other options. But what would you expect from a police force that pepper-sprayed a baby?

I think in general, the police should use non-lethal force to make an arrest, unless they have no other alternative, and lives are in danger. Like in London.

Having killed a poor guy from Brazil is no good, no doubts about it. Now, isn't this the price to pay to fight against terrorism in an effective manner? Looking at the brave reactions in the UK and the quick progress cops are making, I tell to myself that that we are still in a good shape beacuse these dam bastards won't win anything.

I am afraid that's the world we live in today!

AgentWood wrote: ejaculating

(Just for anyone who was missing the usual childish BCD tone!)

BIGINOIL wrote:

AgentWood wrote: ejaculating

(Just for anyone who was missing the usual childish BCD tone!)

"He heard footsteps running to and fro in the rooms, and up and down stairs behind him. His landlady came to the door, loosely wrapped in dressing gown and shawl; her husband followed ejaculating."

H.G.Wells

Can those who think shooting him was totally wrong, perhaps give another method of preventing him pulling the "happy afterlife generator" handle? A better way that turning his brain to much.

Perhaps the old style UK cop technique....."I say, stop that at ONCE!" would have surficed.

Besides, like I said, Darwin in action.....we have not lost a cancer cure, or a new method of interplanetary propulsion....we lost someone who thought 5 cops with guns, 24 hrs after a terrorist attack, were only SUGGESTING he may like to stop. The world got lighter.

Steve Campbell wrote: "He heard footsteps running to and fro in the rooms, and up and down stairs behind him. His landlady came to the door, loosely wrapped in dressing gown and shawl; her husband followed ejaculating."

H.G.Wells

Can those who think shooting him was totally wrong, perhaps give another method of preventing him pulling the "happy afterlife generator" handle? A better way that turning his brain to much.

Perhaps the old style UK cop technique....."I say, stop that at ONCE!" would have surficed.

Besides, like I said, Darwin in action.....we have not lost a cancer cure, or a new method of interplanetary propulsion....we lost someone who thought 5 cops with guns, 24 hrs after a terrorist attack, were only SUGGESTING he may like to stop. The world got lighter.

The police were plainclothes.

Why did the police LIE and insist this guy was directly related to the bombings for three days when they knew he wasn't?

I would not stop for police who were plainclothes, unless they showed me some convincing ID. Have they said they did this? NO. Why? Probably because it was an MI5 cock up - not a police intervention.

Stockwell is in a dodgy part of South London and people do pretend to be things they are not.

Why did they shoot him in the head 5 times AFTER pinning him down?

Now all the facts are coming out it seems there is less and less justification for killing this bloke.

This whole thing STINKS!

I agree, this operation has MI5 written all over it. They probably didn't even identify themselves.

Anybody watched the tv series 'Spooks' a couple years ago?

I'm not saying the fact they tailed and targetted this poor sod wasn't a total dog's dick of a bit of "intelligence".

BUT, IF they'd been right and done anything else other than pile 5 bodies on him and "interupt" his nervous system.....there'd be a whole pile more dead Londers and everyone would be A. calling the cops wankers and B. saying they need tanks and stuff.

Besides, it's just the usualy media crap, same thing happens all the bloody time all over thw world....it's just suddenly happened somehwere they were already looking. And in a (part of a) country where cops don't normally blow people away.

Given the choice.... A. dispatch an idiot to his maker mistakenly or B. carpet bomb civilians in a KNOWINGLY utterly unrelated country.

I know what I prefer as a measuered response. Course, we're doing both, so my argument kinda falls on it's arse right there.

Steve Campbell wrote: I'm not saying the fact they tailed and targetted this poor sod wasn't a total dog's dick of a bit of "intelligence".

BUT, IF they'd been right and done anything else other than pile 5 bodies on him and "interupt" his nervous system.....there'd be a whole pile more dead Londers and everyone would be A. calling the cops wankers and B. saying they need tanks and stuff.

Besides, it's just the usualy media crap, same thing happens all the bloody time all over thw world....it's just suddenly happened somehwere they were already looking. And in a (part of a) country where cops don't normally blow people away.

Given the choice.... A. dispatch an idiot to his maker mistakenly or B. carpet bomb civilians in a KNOWINGLY utterly unrelated country.

I know what I prefer as a measuered response. Course, we're doing both, so my argument kinda falls on it's arse right there.

Tell his grieving relatives he's an idiot. What if it was you, what if it was me?

These police / MI5 were NOT IN UNIFORM.

If a small gang of people wearing civvies was chasing you in a dodgy part of London, with guns, would you 'adopt the position'?

I think not.

OK, if that's the case, I tend to agree with you. the way I heard the report, he was initially challenged by uniformed officers, then attacked by the spooks. If that's bollox, then maybe the guy wasn't quite such a twat. Maybe he was actually terrified of the same thing the cops were.

Again tho, the cops were supposedly tailing this guy, where did that startling piece of "intelligence" come from? Some friggin "Tim nice But Dim" in fookin MI*, the place is full of them..."I say, get him a post in intelligence, he can't do much damage there".

Used to be "innocent until proven Irish", apparently it's innocent until "proven brownish" now.

I appear to have based my argument on somewhat out of date info, remember that for me, sleep is something that happens to other people, so I'm not always up to date (anything that doesn't float accross my news ticker on AP or slashdot or the register, doesn't usually sink in....I don't watch much telly news cos it's all gone far too Chris Morris for me to stomach).

I do stand by the mulching of the nervous system as being the only stopper for some godbrain on the fastrack to a halo. Bringing such a target down by wounding him in the leg is no use whatsoever. When people whinged about the RUC wasting people here they probably had a point, there's plenty of ways to neutralize an armed opponent without offing him. But when the guy has already taken the decision to die, and has some easily operable trigger mechanism that could kill hundreds, I fear that makin a big mess is as good a means as any. And let's hope they DO come up something where a mistake can be sorted with an apology and a nice cup of tea.

I'm not sure I like that fookin avatar gawpin at me BTW.

Come on, you're a big rufty toughty - i'm sure you're not afraid of a little old Dalek Emporer...?

digitalwaters wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote: I'm not saying the fact they tailed and targetted this poor sod wasn't a total dog's dick of a bit of "intelligence".

BUT, IF they'd been right and done anything else other than pile 5 bodies on him and "interupt" his nervous system.....there'd be a whole pile more dead Londers and everyone would be A. calling the cops wankers and B. saying they need tanks and stuff.

Besides, it's just the usualy media crap, same thing happens all the bloody time all over thw world....it's just suddenly happened somehwere they were already looking. And in a (part of a) country where cops don't normally blow people away.

Given the choice.... A. dispatch an idiot to his maker mistakenly or B. carpet bomb civilians in a KNOWINGLY utterly unrelated country.

I know what I prefer as a measuered response. Course, we're doing both, so my argument kinda falls on it's arse right there.

Tell his grieving relatives he's an idiot. What if it was you, what if it was me?

These police / MI5 were NOT IN UNIFORM.

If a small gang of people wearing civvies was chasing you in a dodgy part of London, with guns, would you 'adopt the position'?

I think not.

We'd probably all run if we were being chased in a dodgy part of town. The cops were definitely plainclothes, but I've assumed they identified themselves. If they didn't identify themselves, then they murdered that poor guy. If they did identify themselves, he shouldn't have run. I read that he was in the UK on an expired visa, and that may be why he ran. If that's the case, it's a tragedy, and he shouldn't be dead over such a trifling matter, but the cops had no way of knowing that he wasn't carrying a bomb; they were tailing him as a part of the terrorist investigation.

At my age, I'm aware just how young that guy was, and just how short life is. I'm not operating under any assumptions that we come back again and again, so losing the one life you have at such a young age is a tragedy. I'm not callous about that.

I just don't think the cops can be blamed, absent some showing that they screwed up-- they didn't identify themselves, he tried to give up, whatever. Everything I've read so far indicates that they repeatedly tried to get him to stop, he kept saying "I'm doing it" but kept running, and they only shot him as he jumped on the train.