Religion, Bollox or not

I feel unstoppable just now, having more or less done my C2 tunes and having listened to TLU (stolen) for breakfast....and I figure that, short of taking the monty python approach and sorting this out by 2 falls or one submission....that the good folks of NOOL are as good a bunch as any to decide humanity's true course.

I SWEAR not to manically rant, I think my opinions on the subject have been widely aired (albeit in my usual style of going 10 times further than I mean, because of the elasticity of human thought).

You can call me out on that promise too if i start.

In fact, don;t talk....vote :D

It's better than that daft SNSS poll anyway :D

where's the third option of i don't know. actually there are so many people who believe something, there may just be something to it. there are so many things between heaven and earth that we don't know about. you can put it off as fairy tales as you usually do. i do believe that this life can't just be it. that something happens when we die. according to the movie 22 grams. that is exactly the amount we weigh less when the soul leaves the body. having recently suffered a death in the family myself, there are certain events that i can not explain. let me just say the room that my mother died in seemed completely other worldly, and i had visited that room plenty of times before. perhaps the current forms of organised religion do not adequately reflect what actually happens, but i wouldn't write religion off as complete bunkum just yet.

Chalk me down as a happy apatheist. I tend not to be that much of a solipsist when it comes to The Nature of Everything, but when it comes to religion, or more accurately, the existence of God(s), I go with what works for me and I don't impose on others in the fashion of evangelist fundamentalists or atheists.

Fundamentalists try to definitively prove the existence of higher powers, while atheists try to definitively prove the nonexistence of such powers. By it's very definition, a deity is ineffable, its nature is either imperceptible or incomprehensible to traditional terrestrial empirical evidence-checking and observation. Therefore, you cannot 'prove' the existence of your god(s), because doing so would negate her existence or validity as a deity. On the other hand, one cannot 'disprove' the existence of god(s) since doing so proves nothing.

Knowing this paradox, the apatheist/agnostic lives without concern over the issue since the difference between an omnipotent god and nothingness/chaos theory has no impact on their life anyways. If told tomorrow that God had been definitively proven to exist/not exist, the apatheist would have no reason to think any differently.

Not to sound like i'm advocating anything or any viewpoint, including my own. Faith or lackthereof is an issue each person figures out for oneself via self-discovery and self-definition. Also, i'm not trying to dissuade debate on the issue of religion/faith; educated discourse on the subject is still intensely interesting and stimulating.

Ronald Kirsch wrote: but i wouldn't write religion off as complete bunkum just yet.

I would...it's based on a fairy tale.

And FWIW......I include any scientific field that has it's head anally inserted as a religion too.

Faith and belief are not on the agenda here....what I am referring to, purely is "religion"....the imposing of rules, limits and constrictions on the individual's faith in order to....well I said i would not rant

I mean, y'all don't really think all my anti religious spoutings mean I am devoid of spirituality?

I know for sure that every atom in my bloody that's heavier than helijum was made inside a dying star. When a christian looks up at the sky, they see pin pricks in a sheet whith God's light behind it ( there are no other worlds or stars in the bible and since god created the ewarth 6000 years ago, there can be nowhere visible further than 6000 lightyears).

When I look at the stars...I see my relatives :D

i dont believe in organized religion, but i do believe their is a god, im not sure who or what he is exactly though

What's going on with the forums lately? Non-tolerant posts, aggresive political proposals, religious offences, etc. I believed it's not so welcomed here

religion is creating a subjective viewpoint of the world that makes you feel important and special, then using a "leap of faith" argument to make this subjective viewpoint supercede the objective world viewpoint because you don't like "reality" ... you are creating a view of the world that you like and that makes you feel special and selfishly good because the objective world is too hard to understand and deal with you place in it. it's bollox in the end

christians believe that the entire universe was specifically created for them, that the creator of all time and space listens to their every whiny selfish prayer, sometimes even talks to them inside their heads, and that they are immortal gods inside of flesh whose spirit will never die. sort of like schizophrenia in a way, but hey, if you have like minded people who will form a group with you it must be just...?

so why are we here? i dunno, but it is interesting how most people come up with an answer that they MUST be here for some sort of "special" or "good" reason...

If I may be permitted to badly quote Dawkins...who aint far from a religious zealot himself, even if he IS right.

How can people think their religion is the true one....did they test a few, see which had the nicest stained glass windows and most pleasant hymns, the one that felt closest to wht they felt about God.....or did they just pick up the first one their parents left lying around?

And can I re-iterate....that we're talking about religion not belief, religion requires obedience to one specific set of beliefs. Sorry I don't want to say it TOO often, but I don't want everyone who thinks there's more to life than what we see thinking I want them hung or anything :D

Steve Campbell wrote: I know for sure that every atom in my bloody that's heavier than helijum was made inside a dying star. When a christian looks up at the sky, they see pin pricks in a sheet whith God's light behind it ( there are no other worlds or stars in the bible and since god created the ewarth 6000 years ago, there can be nowhere visible further than 6000 lightyears).

When I look at the stars...I see my relatives :D

Not trying to pick a fight or disagree with your 'belief' but I am curious as to how you know this? What if it was a star being born and not dying?

Also your statement about christians looking up at the sky is a pretty wide brush to paint them with. Do they all think that or just the ones you met, or is that a conclusion you've drawn yourself?

I'm with the fast show here. What do you think of that religion stuff then? It's all bobllocks aint it ;)

maybe i'm being overly intolerant in argument but I just wish more than average "religious types", especially those who make a point to tell those around them about their "faith" all the time, were at least honest and nice and were tolerant of others to a reasonable degree... c'mon, set an example at least, pay some respect to other individuals... and if you complain about something to them they always use the argument that they are religious and unimpeachable, that they are intrinsically on the side of "right, so fuck you"...

most of the most-difficult people I've worked with were very upfront about their religious beliefs, and were assholes to their co-workers and lied often to others and management. businesses run by very religious people are often among the most difficult to deal with also... guys who obnoxiously bragg about how they are great christians and family man over and over while cheating dozens of times on their wives with other women or men... vocal religious gay bashers who cruise for men every week... people who steal from or screw over those around them without remorse, I've known many... I just don't see any correlation between being more religious and following the morality any more, almost a negative correlation in many cases... where are these nice people?

pumped full of drugs wrote: so why are we here? i dunno, but it is interesting how most people come up with an answer that they MUST be here for some sort of "special" or "good" reason...

Concur. I reckon we're biological machines created/developed for purposes beyond our comprehension. No answer to be found ever to that eternal question.

As for religions, they are games, businesses and psychotherapies.

"Religion is the sign of the oppressed creature...the opium of the people"

Got Marx but I'm no Marxist...:)

Fook all wrong with religion- too many heathen fookers out there. Pointless slagging something off if you cannae understand it. Not everyone is a rabid, fundamentalist always telling his/her shit to anyone who will listen. For some of us its quite a personal issue that is never mentioned in general conversation.:D

One thing i will say is that some religious types i know are the most arrogant, selfish ,self seeking cunts i've ever had the displeasure of knowing.unfortunately i'm related to them.if you are not "with" them you are scum.Fuck off!

"I still believe in God, but God no longer believes in me...."

Nah! Bollocks to me.

Ironwill wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote: I know for sure that every atom in my bloody that's heavier than helijum was made inside a dying star. When a christian looks up at the sky, they see pin pricks in a sheet whith God's light behind it ( there are no other worlds or stars in the bible and since god created the ewarth 6000 years ago, there can be nowhere visible further than 6000 lightyears).

When I look at the stars...I see my relatives :D

Not trying to pick a fight or disagree with your 'belief' but I am curious as to how you know this? What if it was a star being born and not dying?

Also your statement about christians looking up at the sky is a pretty wide brush to paint them with. Do they all think that or just the ones you met, or is that a conclusion you've drawn yourself?

that would be science.

and moby, "we are all made of stars".

Ronald Kirsch wrote:

Ironwill wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote: I know for sure that every atom in my bloody that's heavier than helijum was made inside a dying star. When a christian looks up at the sky, they see pin pricks in a sheet whith God's light behind it ( there are no other worlds or stars in the bible and since god created the ewarth 6000 years ago, there can be nowhere visible further than 6000 lightyears).

When I look at the stars...I see my relatives :D

Not trying to pick a fight or disagree with your 'belief' but I am curious as to how you know this? What if it was a star being born and not dying?

Also your statement about christians looking up at the sky is a pretty wide brush to paint them with. Do they all think that or just the ones you met, or is that a conclusion you've drawn yourself?

that would be science.

and moby, "we are all made of stars".

To me, organized religion acts as a spiritual "middle man," i.e. you don't have access to God unless you do it OUR WAY (and often times PAY for it!) But there are so many different religions and "ways" that the only way to know for sure if you have picked the "right" one is to take someone else's word for it! This completely turns me off of organized relgion, as it would for any independent thinker. My feeling is that what we want to call God is just another word for LIFE. There is nothing that is not a part of LIFE, so we must all be a part of it, and have access to higher wisdom by going within ourselves rather than accepting someone else's ideas. What feels true to you?

All Bollocks. And God doesnt seem to be a very nice person, does he?

seals wrote: All Bollocks. And God doesnt seem to be a very nice person, does he?

threre are long discussions in religious circles about how god could let something awful happen, and why bad things happen to good people. i won't bore you with it all, but it all goes back to original sin, and that humanity has been given free will to do more or less as it pleases.

as to why god sometimes 'chooses' to intervene, who knows.

the more i think about the more that depeche song makes sense.

threre are long discussions in religious circles about how god could let something awful happen, and why bad things happen to good people.

The Book of Job. What about God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son? The entire Old Testament for that matter. Some argue that Satan was the angel that God used to test mere mortals when he made bad things happen to good volks.

Either way religion was and is abused by structure and organization. Maybe it was necessary 4000 years ago i.e. don't eat pork because it makes you sick and swine destroy the land. But who would listen to that without the threat of eternal damnation.

What a shame. Nothing wrong with The Sermon on the Mount--feed the hungry, cloth the naked or the 5 Pillars of Islam. The problem is with violence in the name of God.

But to the main question, religion or science either choice requires you to jump over the abysis and accept things that you cannot prove. Read Nagel.

I think it's too simplistic-- say as simplistic as W-- to see it in black and white terms. Religion has done some incredible harm in this world. It has also done some incredible good.

Would any of us want to live in a soiety were the only rule for ethical conduct was "everybody make up your own rules"? Religion has often been the force that imposes a set of rules on human behavior. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. Those kinds of things. As opposed to the meanest mofo in the neighborhood sets the rules. Sure, some mean mofos set their own rules anyway, but they're in direct contravention of the "higher rules." If there were no "higher rules" that apply to everybody, the world would be even more dismal than it already is.

Now you could say that we could develop these rules without religion, but the fact remains that these rules came to us through religion. What "could have been" wasn't.

Obviously, religion and spiritualiy are two different things, and people generally don't misbehave because their spirituality requires them to, and people often misbehave because their religion (supposedly) requires them to. So maybe we should have spirituality, but no religion? OK, but isn't that just everbody making up their own rules again?

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: I think it's too simplistic-- say as simplistic as W-- to see it in black and white terms. Religion has done some incredible harm in this world. It has also done some incredible good.

Would any of us want to live in a soiety were the only rule for ethical conduct was "everybody make up your own rules"? Religion has often been the force that imposes a set of rules on human behavior. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. Those kinds of things. As opposed to the meanest mofo in the neighborhood sets the rules. Sure, some mean mofos set their own rules anyway, but they're in direct contravention of the "higher rules." If there were no "higher rules" that apply to everybody, the world would be even more dismal than it already is.

Now you could say that we could develop these rules without religion, but the fact remains that these rules came to us through religion. What "could have been" wasn't.

Obviously, religion and spiritualiy are two different things, and people generally don't misbehave because their spirituality requires them to, and people often misbehave because their religion (supposedly) requires them to. So maybe we should have spirituality, but no religion? OK, but isn't that just everbody making up their own rules again?

i think society has always had rules about right or wrong. were those ealist law codexes we have surviving from mesopotania named after their gods, or after their kings. i think it was the compiled on the king's orders. (I know his name but I can't spell it for shit today hammundi is the closed i can do)

it is perfectly possibile for non religious and non spiritual folk to live a moral an law abiding life. I believe that somehow we are born with a sense of what is right and what is wrong, unless one happens to be a psycopath. I think i am beginning to get out of my shere of knowledge here, and we really need some input from someone who has studied sociology.

Even atheists live moral lives. However, the fact remains that the first moral precepts came from religion. Regardless of whether they could have come from secular society, the fact remains that they didn't. Even Hammurabi wrote his Code to please the gods.

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Even atheists live moral lives. However, the fact remains that the first moral precepts came from religion. Regardless of whether they could have come from secular society, the fact remains that they didn't. Even Hammurabi wrote his Code to please the gods.

thanks for the correct spelling.

i do believe that a society without religion would evolve its own laws. by definition being a society would imply that.

has anyone conducted that sort of experiment? i guess we can always look at the animal world and study group behaviour there.

a sociologist please?

not that i have anything to back it up ... but going back into unwritten history, pretty much any culture had basic rules of society (laws of some sort) to keep things from anarchy, without laws you have no society... i.e. citizens of a group should not kill and steal from other citizens just for the hell of it, which is basically what is said in the ten commandments. there is no great epiphony here unique to the Judeo-Christian religion. without basic laws you cannot have economic commerce, and society had existed for a few thousand years before the early Jewish culture. it could be claimed that our society has gotten more from Greece and Rome in terms of moral thought and behavior, but that is all a matter of argument.

another point on the "Thou shall not kill" from the Ten Commandments... the Old testament is full of Jews killing people, so it is not really a moral question but just a law of Jewish society, according to God in the Bible there are many reasons to kill people... the Ten Commandments are death penalties, if you break them then God said your punishment was death