True, quite true Ron. A quagmire isn't it. (well it's probably misspelled, but you get the idea).
JHC
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The real reason behind all this gubbins with Iran?
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68 Pontiac wrote:
However there are alot of Jordanian insurgents (the believed master mind Zarquawi is Jordanian for one). JHC
Just to make it clear, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi's family live in Jordan, but are fiercely Palestinian, the country they fled from.
Burt Reynolds wrote:
68 Pontiac wrote:
However there are alot of Jordanian insurgents (the believed master mind Zarquawi is Jordanian for one). JHC
Just to make it clear, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi's family live in Jordan, but are fiercely Palestinian, the country they fled from.
Not doubting you Burt, but where did you get his info? Never heard about it. I only have info that he was Jordanian. Of course Palestinians are all over the place in the ME. They are considered the "lowest of low" in the ME, so everynation keeps kicking them out, then accepted, but usually getting a raw deal. Not really sure of the history behind that.
Anyways where did you get that info? Interested.
JHC
I was in a chat room forum over a year ago, not long after he had beheaded a Brit. Ken Bigley was his name. I was surprised to hear he was Jordanian, so i looked it up.
I can't find the original source, but the following link is quite thorough.
And the history of Palestine is widely regarded as the real starting point of the recent wave of problems in the Middle East, if you want to look into it.
I guess our ill-advised creation of the state of Israel in 1949 is probably the catalyst for much of the grievances. Palestinian migration to other countries since then has gone over five million.
This is, I guess, another thread entirely, and a very contentious one too.
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Locked and loaded-- ready for battle. Except I'm too busy...
Comrade..
It's something I know far too little about, and hell, it's probably the most contentious subject one could post about in modern political history.
My views, however simplified, are that the problem originates from the creators of the mess, not the two groups fighting for the territory.
I would say that the death toll, as a result of it, must be close to holocaustal proportions.
I think another thread is in order, if this subject is taken on, and I'm not starting it!
Well, from what I understand, the plan was always to create two states in Palestine, with Jerusalem as an international city. And I agree that most of the mess in the mideast can eventually be distilled down to the fight over Palestine.
I'm not starting that thread either.
Hell.. let's just keep to Iran etc. I don't want to go there, either.
I was just giving Pontiac a few pointers on a subject you could spend a lifetime and a half studying and still not understand.
I think Pontiac is right, actually. From our cultural perspective, when you have a disagreement, both sides give something up, both sides gain something, you make your adjustments and move on. From a mideast cultural perspective, you never give an inch, and you carry your grudge forward for all eternity.
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: I think Pontiac is right, actually. From our cultural perspective, when you have a disagreement, both sides give something up, both sides gain something, you make your adjustments and move on. From a mideast cultural perspective, you never give an inch, and you carry your grudge forward for all eternity.
That is kinda linked to religion though. In the West, religion is still held in high esteem by some (nothing wrong with choice - its a democracy etc); but generally numbers of people attending church has declined roughly corresponding to the increase in educational standards and a move away from church based education. We also have a system which allows for multi-religious views and different forms of worship.
Not at all fair to say Middle Eastern people are uneducated, but much of their education system is based on religious views and moral standards linked to religious texts.
I hate to use the example, but England behaved in a similar manner for centuries. We hated other countries for belief systems alien to ours, and in many cases invaded them as a result.
Is this all a little bit of history repeating?
or is this another thread?..lol
Burt,
Actually you are right when it comes to the ME and education. There is a HUGE gap between the few rich and the populous of destitute. The rich are VERY well educated, usually sending their children to other countries for college and learning about western culture, and embracing it. The majority of the polulace, however, is in a caste system. The generation of sheepherders and they have extreme difficulty in getting out of the family business. So education for, let's say, a sheepherder isn't necissary. Education is seen as hurting the family business. The child could either be learning things at school that have nothing to do with sheepherding or they could stay at home and help raise sheep, helping them get money they desperately need. So in a poor area, like Ar Ramadi, the average school level of adults is the second grade. This leads to an ignorant public, and probably the main reason they follow their emums so religiously, which are well educated. Granted this is not in every ME country, but the majority of them.
JHC
Wellll, without wanting to upset religious people (religion and politics in one thread! - oh joy), religion tends to thrive in poorer countries in general, which often have an unfunded education system.
In the UK, church attendance has fallen from close to 100% in 1880 to around 6% or less currently. This fall is linked to the rise in state sponsored education rather than religious based education. I'm sure the figures are similar in the USA, although probably due to considerable regional flux.
Life in parts of the Middle East must be so harsh, that the belief that 'one will end up in a better place' is probably a very strong one; the driving force in most belief systems is a lack of luxury and comfort, although there are many individual exceptions. Unfortunately this creates a country of 'sheep follwing the shepherd' whereas free thought allows us to engage in forums like this.
The Middle East is medieval in some respects, and the only thing that can cure this is time. Thats if we believe our way is right.
Well your remarks could very easily open a can of worms, a education vs. religon debate, but I'll stay away from that. This is what I was more or less elluding to in the begining of this thread, though I may have not done it so well.
At least, in Iraq, we are trying to increase education, by making sure the schools are well supplied. The difficulty was that there were insurgants threatening schoolchildren, and trying to protect them has been difficult. Also we have built many schoolhouses, and not more than three months later they are blowing them up. Why the people are doing this to schoolhouses is beyond me.
Which reminds me of something often stated, that the Iraq occupation is similar to the Vietnam Conflict. I understand their reasoning, but there is one large difference: The Veit Cong had a central unified command and endstate (communism), whereas the insurgents have no real central command, they are more or less are complaining but with no solution of thier own. In short, the Viet Cong were organized, whereas the insurgents are not.
Forgive me as that probably also is another thread all in itself.
JHC
Burt Reynolds wrote:
The Middle East is medieval in some respects, and the only thing that can cure this is time. Thats if we believe our way is right.
who are we to judge another culture, or for that matter cultures as medieval or inferior. granted we have different values in the west. but any culture is just as valid as the next.
Ronald Kirsch wrote:
Burt Reynolds wrote:
The Middle East is medieval in some respects, and the only thing that can cure this is time. Thats if we believe our way is right.
who are we to judge another culture, or for that matter cultures as medieval or inferior. granted we have different values in the west. but any culture is just as valid as the next.
Have to say when people are forcing others to be ignorant for their own benefit of power. . .well that is wrong, no matter what the culture.
JHC
68 Pontiac wrote:
Also we have built many schoolhouses, and not more than three months later they are blowing them up. Why the people are doing this to schoolhouses is beyond me.
JHC
well i say the answer is quite simple. the insurgents see these schoolhouses, and what is being taught in them as a symbol of foreign oppression.
68 Pontiac wrote:
Ronald Kirsch wrote:
Burt Reynolds wrote:
The Middle East is medieval in some respects, and the only thing that can cure this is time. Thats if we believe our way is right.
who are we to judge another culture, or for that matter cultures as medieval or inferior. granted we have different values in the west. but any culture is just as valid as the next.
Have to say when people are forcing others to be ignorant for their own benefit of power. . .well that is wrong, no matter what the culture.
JHC
i agree education is the answer, well it is to many problems, but what are you going to do. these are sovereign states, and as such they have the right to conduct their affairs as they see fit. countries, especially in the middle east tend to get a bit touchy, when foreign powers, or ngos try to interfere in their internal affairs.
I think the insurgents target schools for the same reason the U.S.-funded contras targetted schools-- to destabilize the country.
Comrade Champany wrote: I think the insurgents target schools for the same reason the U.S.-funded contras targeted schools-- to destabilize the country.
good point. the civilian population will never feel completely safe as long as that is going on.
Ronald Kirsch wrote:
Burt Reynolds wrote:
The Middle East is medieval in some respects, and the only thing that can cure this is time. Thats if we believe our way is right.
who are we to judge another culture, or for that matter cultures as medieval or inferior. granted we have different values in the west. but any culture is just as valid as the next.
OK.. the word may have connotations, but I used Medieval in terms of comparing it to a point in British history. I cannot think of a more appropriate word. It certainly didnt suggest inferior, just less developed; whether a more developed culture is a good nothing or necessary is up to individual cultures to decide. I know the British destroyed enough cultures by imposing Western ideas on them in the past.
Hmmm...
Just noticed on the news that Iran has tentatively agreed a programme of 'uranium enrichment' with Russia, to take place in Russia, for the benefit of nuclear power.
No need for conflict then?
