Saddam Hussein...

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Though I think we should not cover up our mistakes, I care not for this movie you speak of. It comes at a time in which hollywood is trying to press anti-war sentiment. If the movie wasn't trying to be politically charged, I wouldn't mind, but its the subconscience message I don't like.

It's not an anti-war film. It's a film about a soldier trying to maintain his own morality-- when the men in his squad commit a war crime-- in the face of extreme pressure to both participate, and to look the other way.

Well that's hollywood trying to be clever by putting this movie out right now and subliminaly send a message. So after leaving this movie, do you feel like joining the service? Does it make you feel that the military is full of unintellectual fools that only follow hollow orders? Does it seem to have a similar feeling as Haditha? And since Iraq has been conviently linked to Vietnam as 'similar' by the media, you can't see how this crosses over as an antiwar movie, but more specifically an anti-Iraq war movie?

EdelBrock wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Though I think we should not cover up our mistakes, I care not for this movie you speak of. It comes at a time in which hollywood is trying to press anti-war sentiment. If the movie wasn't trying to be politically charged, I wouldn't mind, but its the subconscience message I don't like.

It's not an anti-war film. It's a film about a soldier trying to maintain his own morality-- when the men in his squad commit a war crime-- in the face of extreme pressure to both participate, and to look the other way.

Well that's hollywood trying to be clever by putting this movie out right now and subliminaly send a message. So after leaving this movie, do you feel like joining the service? Does it make you feel that the military is full of unintellectual fools that only follow hollow orders? Does it seem to have a similar feeling as Haditha? And since Iraq has been conviently linked to Vietnam as 'similar' by the media, you can't see how this crosses over as an antiwar movie, but more specifically an anti-Iraq war movie?

I missed the title of the movie you are talking about and am too lazy to go back and check what it is...so can I assume you're talking about Big Mamma's House 2?

Because then it totally makes sense

EdelBrock wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Though I think we should not cover up our mistakes, I care not for this movie you speak of. It comes at a time in which hollywood is trying to press anti-war sentiment. If the movie wasn't trying to be politically charged, I wouldn't mind, but its the subconscience message I don't like.

It's not an anti-war film. It's a film about a soldier trying to maintain his own morality-- when the men in his squad commit a war crime-- in the face of extreme pressure to both participate, and to look the other way.

Well that's hollywood trying to be clever by putting this movie out right now and subliminaly send a message. So after leaving this movie, do you feel like joining the service? Does it make you feel that the military is full of unintellectual fools that only follow hollow orders? Does it seem to have a similar feeling as Haditha? And since Iraq has been conviently linked to Vietnam as 'similar' by the media, you can't see how this crosses over as an antiwar movie, but more specifically an anti-Iraq war movie?

gratuitous news article

EdelBrock wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Though I think we should not cover up our mistakes, I care not for this movie you speak of. It comes at a time in which hollywood is trying to press anti-war sentiment. If the movie wasn't trying to be politically charged, I wouldn't mind, but its the subconscience message I don't like.

It's not an anti-war film. It's a film about a soldier trying to maintain his own morality-- when the men in his squad commit a war crime-- in the face of extreme pressure to both participate, and to look the other way.

Well that's hollywood trying to be clever by putting this movie out right now and subliminaly send a message.

The film was released in 1989.

So after leaving this movie, do you feel like joining the service?

Is that what you think the "meaning" of war films should be?

Does it make you feel that the military is full of unintellectual fools that only follow hollow orders?

Once more for those who weren't paying attention. The theme of the film is the struggle of one man to maintain his morality in the face of intense pressure to abandon his morality.

There are five men in the squad: Sergeant Meserve (Sean Penn), Corporal Clarke, and Privates Hatcher, Diaz, and Eriksson (Michael J. Fox). Meserve is 20 years old, New York City working class, and as becomes clear in the course of the film, brutal and immoral. Clarke is a psychopathic killer. Hatcher is a not-very-bright guy who does what his Sergeant tells him to do, and Diaz is a guy who wants no part in the rape, and makes a pact with Eriksson not to rape the girl, but caves in because he doesn't want the other guys to think he's a "fag." Eriksson is the only soldier in his squad who refuses to rape the girl. He's not the only soldier in the army who realizes the rape/murder was a war crime.

After she is murdered by the squad members, Eriksson tells his friend in another squad about it, and his friend says to go to Lt. Riley about it. Eriksson reports the murder to Lt. Riley, who does nothing about it, and then to his Captain, who tells him that a court martial will ruin Meserve's life. Eriksson finally tells a chaplain, and and the incident finally gets investigated, leading to courts martial for the four men involved in the rape/murder.

Now... It's not a film about a military "full of unintellectual fools who only follow hollow orders." It's a film, based on an actual incident, about one man confronted with pressure to abandon his morality.

Does it seem to have a similar feeling as Haditha?

I made that connection, the film didn't, and couldn't have, because the film was released 17 years before the Haditha rape/murders.

And what do you think the point of my connecting the two incidents was? If you'll recall, I responded to Cozzie's post drawing comparisons between Saddam Hussein's trial & execution with the Nuremberg trials. And as I previously said, we have one standard for war criminals from other countries, and a different standard for war criminals who happen to be American. And when we mollycoddle our own war criminals, we lose whatever moral high ground we had.

And since Iraq has been conviently linked to Vietnam as 'similar' by the media, you can't see how this crosses over as an antiwar movie, but more specifically an anti-Iraq war movie?

It's not an anti-war film, no matter how many times you say it is. It's a film about a man struggling to maintain his morality....

I don't think the film is an anti-war film, but an anti-Marine film, or US army or whatever. Any films that portrays soldiers raping innocent people in an anti-army film. The fact that noone would listen to Marty McFly about the rape and murder shows the corruption in the US Army.

I think linking the Nuremberg Trials and Saddam is slightly difficult as Saddam was tried by Iraqis and not a coalition of western forces.

I think it's good he's got rid of, but it does open a whole new can of worms in Iraq. It's going to cause trouble between the different sections of Muslims that is going to take a long time to sort out.

FrogChorus wrote: The fact that noone would listen to Marty McFly

FrogChorus wrote: I don't think the film is an anti-war film, but an anti-Marine film, or US army or whatever. Any films that portrays soldiers raping innocent people in an anti-army film. The fact that noone would listen to Marty McFly about the rape and murder shows the corruption in the US Army.

In the film, it wasn't institutionalized corruption. It was the immediate chain of command-- McFly's Lieutenant, and his Captain. Part of McFly's dilemma was trying to stay within military rules. He had an opportunity to save the girl, after she was raped, but before she was murdered, but as he was preparing to leave with her, he realized he could be charged with desertion, so he hesitated. Then, as he decided to leave with her despite the potential desertion charges, the psychopathic corporal caught up with him.

Later, he tried to report the crime, but he had to do it within his chain of command. And when his immediate superiors showed no interest in an investigation, he became disheartened.

Once the story went outside of his unit, through the chaplain, it was investigated and charges were filed. So it wasn't institutional corruption, and therefore, i don't think it can be portrayed as an "anti-military film."

That doesn't mean that the military didn't turn a blind eye to war crimes in Vietnam, it just means that in this film, and in the actual incident, the military did investigate and prosecute.

Well I suppose if you only watch half the film then it's anti-military.... I suppose it could also deter people to look into US Army atrocities in Vietnam and see how dodgy the army were in real life...

I do agree with the earlier point that there is different standards for war criminals. US/British/Allied forces that commit atrocities should be dealt with and court-martialled or punished accordingly. It's a pity that that cannot be done with a media circus and done properly. It doesn't set a very good example nor make the Iraqi/wherever population feel safe in the hands of the 'liberating forces'.

Das Boot and Band Of Brothers are probably my two favourite war-based pieces of media

I don't see why military corruption should be a hindrance to anyone's career. Just look at Colin Powell. He did a lovely job of covering up the My Lai massacre until someone else spilled the beans, which got him a good position for covering up the Iran-Contra scandal (which of course never came back to haunt anybody) and then spreading some bullshit to the UN about Iraq (and we're back to massacred civilians). Let's pull the threads together a bit.

America's toppling of Saddam is going to lead to far more ethnic cleansing (that's genocide, for your euphemistically impaired) than is already happening on a daily basis in Iraq. And is the UN or any "friendly" country going to march into Iraq to keep the peace after seeing the "good work" the US has made? I certainly doubt it. Look for Syria or Iran in your neighborhood very soon.

Comrade,

I was thinking of another movie that is suppose to be coming out soon that I've heard about through the grapevine and didn't realize this was an '89 movie. So I recant some of my last position.

However, hollywood has had a recent rash of films,since the eighties, about military corruption. It seems that most war films are unbelievably sappy or about corruption of some sort. The sappy ones come off as completely unbelievable, and the corruption type seem more like reality. Rarely is there any good movies that portray things correctly, with out some bias, like Band of Brothers, Black Hawk Down, We Were Soldiers and possibly Flags of Our Fathers could be thrown in there.

Alot of these producers and writers for these movies use the truth of the times loosely, and have people act as they believe people in the military act (which is so stereotypical of people that have never joined). I guess these movies hit a nerve for me, just as african-american watching a movie about blacks that was done all stereotypical (and claimed it was truth).

I might try out the movie you mentioned, as your recommendation, and see for myself, as I went off a little without really knowing the full basis of the movie.

FrogChorus wrote: Well I suppose if you only watch half the film then it's anti-military.... I suppose it could also deter people to look into US Army atrocities in Vietnam and see how dodgy the army were in real life...

I do agree with the earlier point that there is different standards for war criminals. US/British/Allied forces that commit atrocities should be dealt with and court-martialled or punished accordingly. It's a pity that that cannot be done with a media circus and done properly. It doesn't set a very good example nor make the Iraqi/wherever population feel safe in the hands of the 'liberating forces'.

Das Boot and Band Of Brothers are probably my two favourite war-based pieces of media

Rarely have we tried individuals of war, even from other countries, for war crimes small in size. Almost all the people tried were involved in large events. I don't see Abu Grab or Haditha fitting that catagory. If we had a unit doing total genocide over there, I truely believe we would send them up to see a tribunal.

EdelBrock wrote: I might try out the movie you mentioned, as your recommendation, and see for myself, as I went off a little without really knowing the full basis of the movie.

I think the film has some weaknesses, particularly in the acting (Penn just chews up the scenery, and it is a bit like watching Marty McFly in Vietnam....) but there are parts that work. Overall, not a "great" film, but I do think it tries to portray the issue without being anti-war or anti-military. If you watch it, keep an eye on the background in the village when the unit is under fire-- you'll see the villagers helping the Viet Cong, so the film definitely isn't going for a one-sided simplistic portrayal of Vietnam.

Comrade, A good movie that shows human quality in war, and how the human personality can change not only the person, but the battle is When Trumpets Fade.

Though I believe there is a slight anti-military sentiment to the movie, I think it is really good. One of the best, if not the best I have ever seen.

It was a Showtime movie that is on dvd, but might be a bit difficult to find....but definately worth the search. Not sappy at all. Actually just talking about it makes me want to watch it again. Think I'm going to go do just that!