Just been on bbc.com that McLaren have been stripped of all 2007 constructor points but the drivers keep theirs.
Any thoughts other than 'F1, cars going round in circles, etc'
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McLaren spy row - latest
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The FIA has hit McLaren with an unprecedented $100 million fine and docked the team its constructors' championship points for the current season after finding them guilty of spying on rivals Ferrari.
However, Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso have escaped sanction, meaning that both are free to chase this year's world drivers' title.
"The WMSC (World Motor Sports Council) has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructors points in the 2007 FIA Formula One world championship and the team can score no points for the remainder of the season," the FIA said.
"Furthermore the team will pay a fine equal to $100 million (£49.2 million), less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction," it added.
The WMSC has also decided that the team's 2008 car will be independently scrutinised, to see whether Ferrari intellectual property is used to give any future performance advantage.
McLaren will also be excluded from next year's constructors' championship.
Hamilton leads Alonso by three points in the drivers' standings with just four races - including Sunday's Belgian Grand Prix - remaining.
The team had originally been found guilty of fraudulent conduct in July, after Ferrari's former head of performance development Nigel Stepney allegedly handed information to McLaren designer Mike Coughlan.
However, on that occasion, the FIA decided there was insufficient evidence that McLaren had actually used the information to its advantage.
FIA president Max Mosley then referred the case to a Court of Appeal, but after fresh evidence surfaced - purported to be an email exhange between Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa - a second WMSC meeting was instigated.
Jesus!
That's quite a penalty.
Will it mean the end for Dennis?
Could even mean the end for McLaren!
I wasn't going to put the telly on, but I am now 
As i understand it, McLaren have to present the 2008 car for scrutineering in December and a decision will be made as to penalties
Err, because we like to follow Formula 1 and this will have a big effect on the sport (or even, if you like, the industry) and the people that participate in it.
Hope this helps.
BIGINOIL wrote: Err, because we like to follow Formula 1 and this will have a big effect on the sport (or even, if you like, the industry) and the people that participate in it.
Hope this helps.
Exactly! To be honest im not particularly interested in Rugby, so dont make a point of cropping up on threads about it to make everyone aware of this!
Back to the subject, I always thought Ferrari should have been punished too, after all their employee is as guilty as espionage surely, but it seems that the verdict is based around the way that McLaren dealt with it all (badly) whereas Ferrari sacked Stepney supposedly as soon as they found out about it.
This has got to be the biggest thing in F1 since Senna, cant wait to see the pre-qualifying show on ITV this weekend, reckon it will need to start about 6am
I'm confused. If MacLaren are as guilty as that punishment suggests, why do the drivers get to keep their points?
All, or nothing. Surely?
Typical Ferrari really, if you can't beat them on the track, and can't use your cheating device, get the lawyers in.
I hope Ron comes out of this OK, I've never exactly liked him as such, but I respect him imensely, unlike that rancid french cunt at Ferrari.
However this is a minor thing compared to the real story of the week....and it's made you all forget about that.......
SPA IS BACK
As for stripping the drivers....why? it's not like what they seen of Ferrari's car made theirs go faster than the Ferrari, so the drivers did not benefit, and are innocent.
Jesus some people just don't like a black geezer winning in whitie's sport.
Yeah, i cant wait for some badly missed Spa action!
Hopefully it will piss it down and we will get some real excitement a la 1998
And they say Belgians are boring....
Who the fuck else puts a chicane on a cliff face? (and once upon a time, another one, at Masta, taken flat in top gear, between two houses....mad fucks!)
A fine illustration of the ever-ruining sanitisation of the sport.
They should build houses on all of the tracks.
The most exciting thing that happened in recent years was when that 'halfwit' (c) M Walker ambled onto the track with a banner in his hands in Germany.
MYAAAAAAAAAAAW!
And they pass Wimpey corner.
VRRRRRRRRRRRRM!
He took Scotia Homes bend FLAT OUT THEN!
GRRRRRRRRRROOO!
Barrat's is causing all of the drivers real problems in this rain.
LOL There's a couple of geezers who've done their home towns as circuits for GPL, ruddy bonkers, but mostly beautifully detailed. Would be a lot less scary doing the "tesco garage forecourt chicane" with slicks, wings and playstation mode, but the closest GPL has to that is 1969.....think concrete tyres and planks on poles nailed to "classic" shaped cars.
Masta in a 67 F1 car.....
Somebody has the damage turned off I fear 
Sadly the only live onboard of Masta is in the movie Grand Prix, and it's from the nose of a GT40 at about 50mph.
Now if they would just bring back The Ring!
From Pitpass.com
Mark September 13th 2007 in your diary, and write it large, for it was on this day that Formula One finally lost any remaining credibility.
Scores were settled on this day, but at what cost? Ferrari might be satisfied with the result, but the sport must hang its head in shame.
If McLaren is guilty, and as of this time we are not privy to the full evidence, then it is right that the team is punished, and punished hard. A warning must be sent out that cheating will not be tolerated.
However, one must ask two things.
Firstly, why wasn't the Woking team punished at the original hearing, a fact which (rightly) incensed Ferrari, and secondly, why is it that the drivers' points are unaffected?
If McLaren has benefited form having Ferrari's information, then its drivers have benefited also, and therefore they too have to be punished. However, as we are all aware, that would mean risking a massive switch off by the viewing public, as 'man down the pub' comes to realise what some of us have feared for some time, that our sport has been corrupted.
In the same way that Bernie Ecclestone wants the huge sanction fees that only (Eastern) governments can offer, but still needs to maintain viewers in the sport's European heartland, resulting in gimmicks such as night races, so the FIA has sent out the message that F1 wants to have its cake and eat it.
Were Ron Dennis a petty man he might be tempted to stuff the powers that be, dropping Lewis Hamilton for the remainder of the season in favour of Pedro de la Rosa... see how the public would react to that.
However, he is not petty, he is a proud man, he will allow Lewis and Fernando to battle for the title, thus giving the FIA (and Bernie) the show its wants/needs even though he and his team have been publicly branded as cheats.
Luca do Montezemolo might be happy with the World Championship being decided in Paris, but true F1 fans are not. That is not to say that Ferrari are the guilty party, they are not, they are the victims.
Basically, because of the greed and ambition of two tainted individuals our sport has been brought to the brink of meltdown, the 2007 championship forever tarnished.
There were no winners in Paris yesterday - though one or two individuals will no doubt have gone to sleep with broads grins on their faces - there were only losers, and the biggest loser was our sport.
A dreadful day in our sport's history, and those that have brought it about, who have engineered this farcical situation for their own ends, should hang their heads in shame.
Doctor? wrote: And they say Belgians are boring....
Who the fuck else puts a chicane on a cliff face? (and once upon a time, another one, at Masta, taken flat in top gear, between two houses....mad fucks!)
actualy got taken on the spa circuit when i was a kid, the bit that was a public road anyway, was a long time ago but i still remember the chicane paint on the side of the road on this steep junction?
old lead foot wrote:
Doctor? wrote: And they say Belgians are boring....
Who the fuck else puts a chicane on a cliff face? (and once upon a time, another one, at Masta, taken flat in top gear, between two houses....mad fucks!)
actualy got taken on the spa circuit when i was a kid, the bit that was a public road anyway, was a long time ago but i still remember the chicane paint on the side of the road on this steep junction?
Hope you didn't take it flat.......
Current arcade mode cars are probably incapable of crashing there 99.9% of the time, but the current bunch of meat ballast they carry are bound to find a way through to that .1%
King John Honest John wrote: who gets the dough?
cheque payable to B. Ecclestone?
F1 Joke
All told it'll work out about £15m so mere pocket change for Bernie.
The real joke is that the drivers were not let off out of a sense of sporting ethics, but just cos every fucker would switch off if they just handed it to the Red Cars...even me....even most Reds (those remaining now that Von Cobblers has finally fucked off)
Doctor? wrote:
King John Honest John wrote: who gets the dough?
cheque payable to B. Ecclestone?
F1 Joke
All told it'll work out about £15m so mere pocket change for Bernie.
The real joke is that the drivers were not let off out of a sense of sporting ethics, but just cos every fucker would switch off if they just handed it to the Red Cars...even me....even most Reds (those remaining now that Von Cobblers has finally fucked off)
in the next race Ste, the maclaren mechanics in the pit should wear blindfolds and handcuffs. so any punctures, fuel stops etc...well the drivers will just have to get on with it themselves. Lewis can change a tyre can't he. seems reasonable and ridiculous. but why disqualify the team and not the drivers. its all one big team isn't it. bizarro.
Doctor? wrote: From Pitpass.com
Mark September 13th 2007 in your diary, and write it large, for it was on this day that Formula One finally lost any remaining credibility.
Scores were settled on this day, but at what cost? Ferrari might be satisfied with the result, but the sport must hang its head in shame.
If McLaren is guilty, and as of this time we are not privy to the full evidence, then it is right that the team is punished, and punished hard. A warning must be sent out that cheating will not be tolerated.
However, one must ask two things.
Firstly, why wasn't the Woking team punished at the original hearing, a fact which (rightly) incensed Ferrari, and secondly, why is it that the drivers' points are unaffected?
If McLaren has benefited form having Ferrari's information, then its drivers have benefited also, and therefore they too have to be punished. However, as we are all aware, that would mean risking a massive switch off by the viewing public, as 'man down the pub' comes to realise what some of us have feared for some time, that our sport has been corrupted.
In the same way that Bernie Ecclestone wants the huge sanction fees that only (Eastern) governments can offer, but still needs to maintain viewers in the sport's European heartland, resulting in gimmicks such as night races, so the FIA has sent out the message that F1 wants to have its cake and eat it.
Were Ron Dennis a petty man he might be tempted to stuff the powers that be, dropping Lewis Hamilton for the remainder of the season in favour of Pedro de la Rosa... see how the public would react to that.
However, he is not petty, he is a proud man, he will allow Lewis and Fernando to battle for the title, thus giving the FIA (and Bernie) the show its wants/needs even though he and his team have been publicly branded as cheats.
Luca do Montezemolo might be happy with the World Championship being decided in Paris, but true F1 fans are not. That is not to say that Ferrari are the guilty party, they are not, they are the victims.
Basically, because of the greed and ambition of two tainted individuals our sport has been brought to the brink of meltdown, the 2007 championship forever tarnished.
There were no winners in Paris yesterday - though one or two individuals will no doubt have gone to sleep with broads grins on their faces - there were only losers, and the biggest loser was our sport.
A dreadful day in our sport's history, and those that have brought it about, who have engineered this farcical situation for their own ends, should hang their heads in shame.
My thought's entirely on this one Cambo and much of what you've said is being debated on the BBC 5 Live messageboard. I suppose considering who's right, wrong, guilty or innocent is a very grey area and the FIA are damned if they penalise McLaren and damned (by Ferrari) if they don't. Only the most naïve F1 fan wouldn't admit to the fact that most of the teams know at least some technical information about their rivals, however there are a number of things that don't ring true with the FIA's decision and the punishment given to McLaren:
• Why exclude McLaren from the Constructors Championship/impose the $100m fine and allow its drivers Alonso and Hamilton to remain unpunished? Surely if McLaren are guilty its drivers are also guilty by at least association.
• Ferrari seemingly has and gets preferential treatment from the FIA than other teams in the F1 paddock. If so isn't this inquiry into the spying allegations at McLaren and the punishment given to them at best tainted with bias and at worst corruption?
• The FIA has not explained or allowed Stepney and Coglan to explain their role in this saga. Were Stepney and Coglan really using this to engineer a move to Honda or were they set up for a fall by Ferrari and McLaren? Either way isn’t Ferrari, McLaren and Honda all guilty of bringing F1 into disrepute? If so Ferrari and to a lesser extent Honda also deserve to be punished?
• The Ferrari mole. Stepney insists he isn't the party which leaked the Ferrari dossier to Coglan/McLaren. If true could it be that Ferrari set up both its disgruntled employee (Stepney) and rivals McLaren by planting this evidence and in turn crying industrial espionage against Stepney, Coglan and McLaren. If Ferrari has used entrapment tactics - as rumoured, they too deserve severe punishment by the FIA.
• Why was Renault/Flavio Briatore so keen to see McLaren punished? Was it sour grapes due to Alonso defecting to McLaren - and a means to try and get him back at Renault, and/or McLaren's involvement in getting Renault's mass damper banned last season? If true sounds like Flav is s*** string IMO.
The shame of this is once again politics in F1 overshadows the racing in what has been one of the closest championship battles for years and interest in F1 at its highest for years. This judgement totally obliterates the progress F1 has made and it’s entirely possible McLaren could appeal further damaging the reputation of F1 in the eyes of the casual fan. I’m afraid the arguments on this one will drag on and on!
Cheers!
King John Honest John wrote:
Doctor? wrote:
King John Honest John wrote: who gets the dough?
cheque payable to B. Ecclestone?
F1 Joke
All told it'll work out about £15m so mere pocket change for Bernie.
The real joke is that the drivers were not let off out of a sense of sporting ethics, but just cos every fucker would switch off if they just handed it to the Red Cars...even me....even most Reds (those remaining now that Von Cobblers has finally fucked off)
in the next race Ste, the maclaren mechanics in the pit should wear blindfolds and handcuffs. so any punctures, fuel stops etc...well the drivers will just have to get on with it themselves. Lewis can change a tyre can't he. seems reasonable and ridiculous. but why disqualify the team and not the drivers. its all one big team isn't it. bizarro.
Yep, but this way the FIA can be seen to be acting, but whilst keeping the best championship for years alive.
F1 has a pretty large global audience, especially compared to 2002 where Schumi had won everything by July and if the Drivers title (and lets face it, no-one but the team bosses give a fuck about the constructors) was given to Ferrari in a courtroom, these new fans/returnees would be off again quicker than a Ferrari pitstop.
You seem to be starting to get interested in this F1 lark, I could lend you some DVDs if you want, get you up to speed with every year since 1991
The FIA now have evidence that Alonso was involved, but he still keeps his points. 
It's all very well 'keeping the championship alive', but if a McLaren driver wins it then it's worthless anyway.
Shame for Lewis Hamilton - one of this country's biggest talents and he'll be guilty by association. :(
Old Blue wrote: The FIA now have evidence that Alonso was involved, but he still keeps his points.
It's all very well 'keeping the championship alive', but if a McLaren driver wins it then it's worthless anyway.
Shame for Lewis Hamilton - one of this country's biggest talents and he'll be guilty by association. :(
Yep
But regardless of that, more people will watch the remaining races (and next years') if the McLaren drivers get to stay than if they were kicked out. So it's in the FIAs interest to keep it going.
Drivell!
Used to love F1 but only watch the first ten mins now as they interrupt my sunday drinking.... 
All seems to have gotten even nastier today, ITV's fault mainly, bastards stirred it a treat.....
Max: I believed Ron, I've known him 40 years.
ITV: Ron, max says yer a lyin cunt mate.
A thought occurred to me today.....
All this business assumes the following....
In all conversations with Stepney, Coughlan never spoke a word, and never handed a single piece of paper to Stepney.
otherwise, it looks like BMW are constructor's champions.
Oh....sorry, I forgot about article 0.0 of the "sporting" code.... "all subsequent rules will be deemed non-applicable where the cars involved are red (or orange as they were for many years) and have a badge showing ann Italian facist symbol[1] of a horse on the nose"
[1]Enzo took the poncing pony from an Italian WWII "ace".....dunno what an Italian ace was....presumably the guy who took longest to run for base.
On the other side of the Atlantic, the New England Patriots is now in deep kimchee for spying on their rivals' hand signals. And it could cost the team their Super Bowl title. Cheating in the sports world is really, really, low. 
The difference here is that the accusers are the greatest cheats the sport has ever seen, not least for fixing results and their current use of a clearly illegal wheel cover.
(last year Reanult had a "mass damper" fitted inside the nose ruled as illegal, as it was a "movable aerodynamic device", despite no air traveling over it. This year Ferrari have wheel covers which are "for" brake cooling, but which actually exhaust the air they suck in into the car's underfloor area, increasing downforce. However since their cars are red, no one has said a fucking word to them.
Actually Ferrari COULD have everyone disqualified for using their intellectual property as *all* cars now use a paddle-shift gearbox, a Ferrari invention. They're bound to try it too, cos if they cannae win with speed, they win with lawyers.
