Election Cheats

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

EdelBrock wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: I know that you had some experience living near at least some Iraqis, and talking with them. I still think it's somewhat akin to some power-- say, China-- defeating and occupying the United States. Sure, the Chinese soldiers might have some contact with American turncoats (let's call them "Republicans" ) who aren't actively resisting the military occupation. Still, one wouldn't presume that those Chinese soldiers, living on their military base, and only venturing out in heavily armed units, really know anything about life in America, based on their limited exposure to a few turncoats, would one?

I wasn't talking about my translators, to whom I was very close, but actual people that lived outside the wall. People that had no loyalty to the US or Iraq, as the majority of the population doesn't have such loyalty. You assume way too much.

Well, let's assume that you actually do have your finger on the pulse of the average Iraqi. What I find interesting in that is that you argue that the Iraqis aren't capable of democratically governing themselves, because their ideas and values are not the same as ours. Which, of course, is really an argument that the U.S. rationale for invading Iraq, whether it was to destroy WMDs, or to spread democracy, was misguided from the moment it was conceived.

Now, still assuming that Iraqis don't really care about self-government (as we conceive it), I don't think you can assume that your Iraqi observations apply in Zimbabwe...

There are reasons that were told to the nation for the invasion and there are the real reasons. Every war (minus WWII) had this done, no real surprise there.... but we've been down that road before, do we really need to go go down it again?

The thing about the population of a third world (also remember I have been breifly around other countries other than Iraq) is that they desire the immediate. If they hate thier leader they want him out, but outside of that emotion, they really have no plans or desires outside of it. We were born around the idea that 'you can accomplish anything if you put your mind to it', they have no such idea. Not that they are against it, they simply don't understand the concept. Places like these can have democracy, but it would take a couple of generations.... you have to allow the old thought to die with the old generation... the older generation simply aren't 'teachable'. Zimbabwe isn't that far along, in terms of the average population. This election is in the right direction, and will help the newest generation understand they have a choice, but its going to take time for thoughts like democracy to flourish.

EdelBrock wrote: There are reasons that were told to the nation for the invasion and there are the real reasons.

Right. Not sure of the correct order, but:

* Bush crime family vendetta * American control of Iraqi oil

Glad you agree that W lied about Iraq from day one, finally.

EdelBrock wrote: Every war (minus WWII) had this done, no real surprise there.... but we've been down that road before, do we really need to go go down it again?

As long as there's some fuckwit who thinks we're there to spread democracy, yes.

EdelBrock wrote: The thing about the population of a third world (also remember I have been breifly around other countries other than Iraq) is that they desire the immediate. If they hate thier leader they want him out, but outside of that emotion, they really have no plans or desires outside of it. We were born around the idea that 'you can accomplish anything if you put your mind to it', they have no such idea. Not that they are against it, they simply don't understand the concept. Places like these can have democracy, but it would take a couple of generations.... you have to allow the old thought to die with the old generation... the older generation simply aren't 'teachable'. Zimbabwe isn't that far along, in terms of the average population. This election is in the right direction, and will help the newest generation understand they have a choice, but its going to take time for thoughts like democracy to flourish.

Why do you continue to hold forth on the politics of a nation you've already admitted you know nothing about?

Has EdelBrock had a sharp thwack in the head over the weekend, or was he masquerading as a member of the intelligentsia all along?

I never agreed to YOUR ideas of why we are in Iraq, and democracy is ONE of the reasons we are there... not one of the main ones, but it IS a reason. Do we really need to go through this again?

I am not talking politics of Zimbabwe, only the mindset of the average population. Granted I haven't been there, but there are things dictators have to do to have a population follow him for extended periods of time, one is to have the population to live under a caste system they feel powerless to change. Wanting/getting change and changing thier mindset are two completely different things.... the main reason the population will overthrow one dictator only to replace it with another.

where are the witch doctors of Zimbabwe when you need them?

Deary me.. you really havent got a clue re: Zimbabwe have you?

Just to fill you in.. its an old British colony, which had some democracy as Rhodesia. The population isnt a load of 18th century African spear-chucking fuckwits as you imply, but a mix of well educated people, of different ethnicity. In fact there are a hell of a lot of native white people living there too and a lot that want to return. Many are in London, and the ones that I've met over the years, black or white, all seem to be decent educated people.

To give you an idea, its a bit like South Africa was/is, and I'm sure it will come on leaps and bounds as soon as Mugabe is finally ousted. Granted, there will be pain before happiness (as in SA), but I'm sure they will get there far more quickly than Iraq ever will. Difference is, we haven't gone in there and bombed the shit out of the place first.

I heard a statistic today that 60 something percent of the US, had not heard of the country, let alone pronounce it, or place it on a globe. For a lot of us Brits, it has been a far more tragic problem than Iraq ever was, because of our historic links.

EdelBrock wrote:

I never agreed to YOUR ideas of why we are in Iraq...

Damn it, you're right! I forgot one:

* Stepping-stone to Iran

What's amazing here is that in a thread that is ostensibly about Mugabe, we keep returning to the subject of W. I mean, sure, there are some similarities, but really, we should try to keep some perspective here. There are some differences between the two, after all.

One is a vicious thug who has maintained his tenuous grip on power through election fraud and political violence. His disastrous policies have bankrupted his nation and saddled future generations with the burden, financial and political, of rebuilding what he has destroyed. His nation is in ruins at home, and a pariah abroad.

The other is the President of Zimbabwe.

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Obama asking to be VP to Clinton would be the smartest thing any politician could do. Remember, I'm Republican, so I sure hope to hell he doesn't do it... but it would be the best move possible for the Democratic party as a whole to quell the issue that is now before them.

Read it and weep: More likely to be Obama/Gore than Clinton/Obama.

Easy there, cowboy. All B. Hussein has said is that he would probably have a nice cabinet level position waiting for 'ol tons of fun. I've heard (Dick Morris' blog) that the most likely scenario is for algore to play peacemaker at the convention. He'll be needed there because Hillary isn't about to get out of the race. And, it's not even because she thinks she can win. She needs to stay in because she's 8-13 million clams in the hole. She needs to keep raising cash to pay off all the "working families" of small businesses her campaign has been stiffing for the last several months.

Like a certain European leader of the early twentieth century, Bill and Hill will fight to the last 30 sec attack add they can afford. By doing so, Denver will look like set pieces from Der Untergang before they are through.

It's going to be so delicious............

Burt Reynolds wrote: Deary me.. you really havent got a clue re: Zimbabwe have you?

Just to fill you in.. its an old British colony, which had some democracy as Rhodesia. The population isnt a load of 18th century African spear-chucking fuckwits as you imply, but a mix of well educated people, of different ethnicity. In fact there are a hell of a lot of native white people living there too and a lot that want to return. Many are in London, and the ones that I've met over the years, black or white, all seem to be decent educated people.

To give you an idea, its a bit like South Africa was/is, and I'm sure it will come on leaps and bounds as soon as Mugabe is finally ousted. Granted, there will be pain before happiness (as in SA), but I'm sure they will get there far more quickly than Iraq ever will. Difference is, we haven't gone in there and bombed the shit out of the place first.

I heard a statistic today that 60 something percent of the US, had not heard of the country, let alone pronounce it, or place it on a globe. For a lot of us Brits, it has been a far more tragic problem than Iraq ever was, because of our historic links.

Every country has intellegent people, but that isn't the majority of the population. The people that are able to transfer to England were those that could afford education and afford moving to another continent. With 80% unemployed and 70% below poverty, the people you met in Engerland aren't the average population of Zimbabwe.

EdelBrock wrote:

Every country has intellegent people, but that isn't the majority of the population. The people that are able to transfer to England were those that could afford education and afford moving to another continent. With 80% unemployed and 70% below poverty, the people you met in Engerland aren't the average population of Zimbabwe.

No they were mainly asylum seekers, often needing housing, and taking on low paid service industry jobs. I remember a white chap, basically given enough cash for a plane ticket, whilst his father stayed at home trying to defend the farm.

The education system left by the British is still in place, albeit not running as well as it could be, obviously. Most qualifications in Zimbabwe are still overseen by English examining boards. Just watched a documentary (finished 12 minutes ago), about the country. One of the main points put across was the vast number of coherent English speakers in the country, and as the interviewer got past the fear and repression, you could see many of his subjects are intelligent and articulate people.

The point I'm trying to make is that Zimbabwe, together with South Africa, Kenya, much of Botswana, (and probably others i cant think of) are 'Westernised', and miles away from the image floating around your head of ignorant uncivilised uncultured cavemen. Trying to equate the plight of the people in Zim with your experience of those in Iraq, is precisely where GWB has gone wrong. Different culture. You will never understand.

As for you, Mr Brock, you really are making a bit of a prat of yerself rambling on about a country you know absolutely f'all about. Start with a globe, and look to the south of the continent for starters. Try reading the newspaper coverage of it; if there isnt a lot (as i suspect), turn onto BBC World News. Just get wised up ffs; you are doing your own "intell(e)gence" a disservice.

EdelBrock wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote: Deary me.. you really havent got a clue re: Zimbabwe have you?

Just to fill you in.. its an old British colony, which had some democracy as Rhodesia. The population isnt a load of 18th century African spear-chucking fuckwits as you imply, but a mix of well educated people, of different ethnicity. In fact there are a hell of a lot of native white people living there too and a lot that want to return. Many are in London, and the ones that I've met over the years, black or white, all seem to be decent educated people.

To give you an idea, its a bit like South Africa was/is, and I'm sure it will come on leaps and bounds as soon as Mugabe is finally ousted. Granted, there will be pain before happiness (as in SA), but I'm sure they will get there far more quickly than Iraq ever will. Difference is, we haven't gone in there and bombed the shit out of the place first.

I heard a statistic today that 60 something percent of the US, had not heard of the country, let alone pronounce it, or place it on a globe. For a lot of us Brits, it has been a far more tragic problem than Iraq ever was, because of our historic links.

Every country has intellegent people, but that isn't the majority of the population. The people that are able to transfer to England were those that could afford education and afford moving to another continent. With 80% unemployed and 70% below poverty, the people you met in Engerland aren't the average population of Zimbabwe.

Don't mess with Burt when it goes about the British Empire. It is like dealing with Mrs.Thatcher.

Burt Reynolds wrote: No they were mainly asylum seekers, often needing housing, and taking on low paid service industry jobs. I remember a white chap, basically given enough cash for a plane ticket, whilst his father stayed at home trying to defend the farm.

The education system left by the British is still in place, albeit not running as well as it could be, obviously. Most qualifications in Zimbabwe are still overseen by English examining boards. Just watched a documentary (finished 12 minutes ago), about the country. One of the main points put across was the vast number of coherent English speakers in the country, and as the interviewer got past the fear and repression, you could see many of his subjects are intelligent and articulate people.

The point I'm trying to make is that Zimbabwe, together with South Africa, Kenya, much of Botswana, (and probably others i cant think of) are 'Westernised', and miles away from the image floating around your head of ignorant uncivilised uncultured cavemen. Trying to equate the plight of the people in Zim with your experience of those in Iraq, is precisely where GWB has gone wrong. Different culture. You will never understand.

Funny. Change the language and the names of the African countries and the story sounds familiar to me...

Jiphy wrote:

EdelBrock wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote: Deary me.. you really havent got a clue re: Zimbabwe have you?

Just to fill you in.. its an old British colony, which had some democracy as Rhodesia. The population isnt a load of 18th century African spear-chucking fuckwits as you imply, but a mix of well educated people, of different ethnicity. In fact there are a hell of a lot of native white people living there too and a lot that want to return. Many are in London, and the ones that I've met over the years, black or white, all seem to be decent educated people.

To give you an idea, its a bit like South Africa was/is, and I'm sure it will come on leaps and bounds as soon as Mugabe is finally ousted. Granted, there will be pain before happiness (as in SA), but I'm sure they will get there far more quickly than Iraq ever will. Difference is, we haven't gone in there and bombed the shit out of the place first.

I heard a statistic today that 60 something percent of the US, had not heard of the country, let alone pronounce it, or place it on a globe. For a lot of us Brits, it has been a far more tragic problem than Iraq ever was, because of our historic links.

Every country has intellegent people, but that isn't the majority of the population. The people that are able to transfer to England were those that could afford education and afford moving to another continent. With 80% unemployed and 70% below poverty, the people you met in Engerland aren't the average population of Zimbabwe.

Don't mess with Burt when it goes about the British Empire. It is like dealing with Mrs.Thatcher.

Jiphy wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote: No they were mainly asylum seekers, often needing housing, and taking on low paid service industry jobs. I remember a white chap, basically given enough cash for a plane ticket, whilst his father stayed at home trying to defend the farm.

The education system left by the British is still in place, albeit not running as well as it could be, obviously. Most qualifications in Zimbabwe are still overseen by English examining boards. Just watched a documentary (finished 12 minutes ago), about the country. One of the main points put across was the vast number of coherent English speakers in the country, and as the interviewer got past the fear and repression, you could see many of his subjects are intelligent and articulate people.

The point I'm trying to make is that Zimbabwe, together with South Africa, Kenya, much of Botswana, (and probably others i cant think of) are 'Westernised', and miles away from the image floating around your head of ignorant uncivilised uncultured cavemen. Trying to equate the plight of the people in Zim with your experience of those in Iraq, is precisely where GWB has gone wrong. Different culture. You will never understand.

Funny. Change the language and the names of the African countries and the story sounds familiar to me...

Not sure what you mean by this one. I'm sure the French are just as concerning as 'mother' country to a number of African ex-colonies too.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

EdelBrock wrote:

Every country has intellegent people, but that isn't the majority of the population. The people that are able to transfer to England were those that could afford education and afford moving to another continent. With 80% unemployed and 70% below poverty, the people you met in Engerland aren't the average population of Zimbabwe.

No they were mainly asylum seekers, often needing housing, and taking on low paid service industry jobs. I remember a white chap, basically given enough cash for a plane ticket, whilst his father stayed at home trying to defend the farm.

The education system left by the British is still in place, albeit not running as well as it could be, obviously. Most qualifications in Zimbabwe are still overseen by English examining boards. Just watched a documentary (finished 12 minutes ago), about the country. One of the main points put across was the vast number of coherent English speakers in the country, and as the interviewer got past the fear and repression, you could see many of his subjects are intelligent and articulate people.

The point I'm trying to make is that Zimbabwe, together with South Africa, Kenya, much of Botswana, (and probably others i cant think of) are 'Westernised', and miles away from the image floating around your head of ignorant uncivilised uncultured cavemen. Trying to equate the plight of the people in Zim with your experience of those in Iraq, is precisely where GWB has gone wrong. Different culture. You will never understand.

As for you, Mr Brock, you really are making a bit of a prat of yerself rambling on about a country you know absolutely f'all about. Start with a globe, and look to the south of the continent for starters. Try reading the newspaper coverage of it; if there isnt a lot (as i suspect), turn onto BBC World News. Just get wised up ffs; you are doing your own "intell(e)gence" a disservice.

That is an excellent post Robert.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

Jiphy wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote: No they were mainly asylum seekers, often needing housing, and taking on low paid service industry jobs. I remember a white chap, basically given enough cash for a plane ticket, whilst his father stayed at home trying to defend the farm.

The education system left by the British is still in place, albeit not running as well as it could be, obviously. Most qualifications in Zimbabwe are still overseen by English examining boards. Just watched a documentary (finished 12 minutes ago), about the country. One of the main points put across was the vast number of coherent English speakers in the country, and as the interviewer got past the fear and repression, you could see many of his subjects are intelligent and articulate people.

The point I'm trying to make is that Zimbabwe, together with South Africa, Kenya, much of Botswana, (and probably others i cant think of) are 'Westernised', and miles away from the image floating around your head of ignorant uncivilised uncultured cavemen. Trying to equate the plight of the people in Zim with your experience of those in Iraq, is precisely where GWB has gone wrong. Different culture. You will never understand.

Funny. Change the language and the names of the African countries and the story sounds familiar to me...

Not sure what you mean by this one. I'm sure the French are just as concerning as 'mother' country to a number of African ex-colonies too.

Isn't that what he's trying to say?

Nick King wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote:

Jiphy wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote: No they were mainly asylum seekers, often needing housing, and taking on low paid service industry jobs. I remember a white chap, basically given enough cash for a plane ticket, whilst his father stayed at home trying to defend the farm.

The education system left by the British is still in place, albeit not running as well as it could be, obviously. Most qualifications in Zimbabwe are still overseen by English examining boards. Just watched a documentary (finished 12 minutes ago), about the country. One of the main points put across was the vast number of coherent English speakers in the country, and as the interviewer got past the fear and repression, you could see many of his subjects are intelligent and articulate people.

The point I'm trying to make is that Zimbabwe, together with South Africa, Kenya, much of Botswana, (and probably others i cant think of) are 'Westernised', and miles away from the image floating around your head of ignorant uncivilised uncultured cavemen. Trying to equate the plight of the people in Zim with your experience of those in Iraq, is precisely where GWB has gone wrong. Different culture. You will never understand.

Funny. Change the language and the names of the African countries and the story sounds familiar to me...

Not sure what you mean by this one. I'm sure the French are just as concerning as 'mother' country to a number of African ex-colonies too.

Isn't that what he's trying to say?

I'm hoping so. The French have not had a Mugabe type-character taking over one of their colonies after they've cleared out, as far as I'm aware (although I admit total ignorance on this one).

Be interesting to know the French attitude to their former colonies, and the level of 'ongoing support' they give.

In fairness to EdelBrock, I don't think he's argued that Zimbabweans are "ignorant, uncultured, uncivilised cavemen."

Well, he's argued ignorant, maybe.

Makes them sound downright Republican, he does.

But really, the gist of his argument is that poor people are more concerned with their immediate survival needs than they are with overthrowing dictators.

I think it's reasonable to expect that anybody, whether a poor Zimbabwean or a middle-class American, would put a high premium on survival. It's when he starts to draw other conclusions from that observation that his argument falls flat on its face.

Burt Reynolds wrote: I'm hoping so. The French have not had a Mugabe type-character taking over one of their colonies after they've cleared out, as far as I'm aware (although I admit total ignorance on this one).

Be interesting to know the French attitude to their former colonies, and the level of 'ongoing support' they give.

There is one in Gabon. Second Président of the country, elected in 1967. I think it is the longest reign (at the moment) in the French part of Africa. Situation in Ivory Coast is better and things are quiet at the moment in Tchad.

Otherwise, I think we have exactly the same concerns in Africa. Our troops stayed in almost every country. They are there for military cooperation and in case of inner riots, they are here to protect the Westerners, opening fire in self-defense only. Well, what is said...

Most of the educational system is a legacy/copy of the French system. They often have more vocabulary than a Frenchman when they reach French universities. Old school French... Class...

In matter of business, to be honest, we are often the main partner - the final goal I think. Add to this that most of these countries share a single currency : Franc CFA, which more or less follows the rate of Euro transalated in old French Francs.

Of course, the largest communities of French speaking Africans are in France. They have the same jobs than by you. Mainly low qualified. See our countries were in Africa and Africa brings us home the same things.

Jiphy wrote: Our troops stayed in almost every country. They are there for military cooperation and in case of inner riots, they are here to protect the Westerners, opening fire in self-defense only.

Opening fire? With what? Cheese?

Tex wrote: B. Hussein

Seems to be quite an issue with his name on the right. Why is that?

Burt,

I'll stand aside, as I know little of the area (as I stated before). Very little is ever in the news over S. Africa... everyone (like Angela Jolie, Madonna, etc) love to rant about N. Africa, so that area gets far more coverage over here. Plus, since N. Africa is a place of turmoil, I have studied that place a bunch.

The only reasons I came to those conclusions are what dictators need to do to keep loyal subjects. They need to supress education and keep people believing that a born caste system is the correct system. If they were truely Westernized, surely they wouldn't stand to be run by a dictator (with unfair elections)?

I possibly was jumping to conclusions on this, but my main question is, does the average Zimbabwean (???) actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations? It boggles my mind how many in this world don't understand that concept, and that is the main point I was driving at....

EdelBrock wrote:

I possibly was jumping to conclusions on this, but my main question is, does the average Zimbabwean (???) actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations? It boggles my mind how many in this world don't understand that concept, and that is the main point I was driving at....

Yes, of course they do. Thats why they've voted him out.

The reason why socialism failed, and is now dead and buried (Hooray!) is because it seeks to destory peoples base instict of hope, aspiration, success, and creating uniformity, and by doing that you allegedly create equality. Thats why Socialism can never work in a democracy (well, it cant work at all, but anyway). Because in democracy, yuou have to allow people a cetrain amount of freedom of thought. But you cant limit that to a political choice. (well, I suppose techincally you can, but i've yet to see an economic dictatorship with politcal freeedom, annswers on a postcard if anyone does have an example)> people naturally aspire. Whether its a higher paid job, a different career, a bigger house, etc etc. The more restricted peoples beliefs and thought processes are, the more powerful a dictastor will be, but most likely the more fucked up your economy will be.

Of course, Zimbabwe, the economy is messed up because of the absolutely ridiculous laws that Mugabe has introduced this last decade and before. But Magabe never outlawed the opposition (which he could have done, and he's probably thinking he should have done now) and allowed the ordinary Zimbabwean to think for themselves. So once they got sick of Mugabes bullshit excuses about how shitty things are, they dumped him out, probably by a landslide if it was a fair election. They aspire for a better future, so they kicked him out, Or at least tried to.

EdelBrock wrote: Burt,

I'll stand aside, as I know little of the area (as I stated before). Very little is ever in the news over S. Africa... everyone (like Angela Jolie, Madonna, etc) love to rant about N. Africa, so that area gets far more coverage over here. Plus, since N. Africa is a place of turmoil, I have studied that place a bunch.

While I'll grant that you're unfamiliar with events in Zimbabwe, that isn't really the basic problem you're struggling with. The basic problem you're struggling with is your observations that follow:

EdelBrock wrote: The only reasons I came to those conclusions are what dictators need to do to keep loyal subjects. They need to supress education and keep people believing that a born caste system is the correct system.

No, what dictators need to do to stay in power-- as opposed to keeping "loyal subjects"-- is to control the dissemination of information and ideas, and to squelch dissent through the application of brute force and terror.

And really, I think you mean "class system," rather than "caste system," don't you? I know that "class system" is puzzling to most Americans, because our own leadership has convinced us that class doesn't exist, but that, and not "caste system," is, I believe, the correct term. Ironic that you advance an argument that would apply to the United States if you use the correct terminology, isn't it?

EdelBrock wrote: If they were truely Westernized, surely they wouldn't stand to be run by a dictator (with unfair elections)?

Er, tell it to the Germans, the Italians, the Greeks, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Poles....

EdelBrock wrote: I possibly was jumping to conclusions on this, but my main question is, does the average Zimbabwean (???) actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations? It boggles my mind how many in this world don't understand that concept, and that is the main point I was driving at....

What boggles the mind is that you can ask, with all sincerity, if people other than Americans "actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations."

EdelBrock wrote: Burt,

I'll stand aside, as I know little of the area (as I stated before). Very little is ever in the news over S. Africa... everyone (like Angela Jolie, Madonna, etc) love to rant about N. Africa, so that area gets far more coverage over here. Plus, since N. Africa is a place of turmoil, I have studied that place a bunch.

The only reasons I came to those conclusions are what dictators need to do to keep loyal subjects. They need to supress education and keep people believing that a born caste system is the correct system. If they were truely Westernized, surely they wouldn't stand to be run by a dictator (with unfair elections)?

I possibly was jumping to conclusions on this, but my main question is, does the average Zimbabwean (???) actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations? It boggles my mind how many in this world don't understand that concept, and that is the main point I was driving at....

Haha.. just to make it clear, there is no caste system operating in Zimbabwe as already stated; it is a Christian country, and the only realistic class divide is between landowners and workers. Mugabe has been on the rampage over the last few years to take away land from the (predominantly white) landowners and distribute it amongst his supporters and henchmen, in an effort to keep support. The people who work the land are forced to vote in his favour, or they are thrown out and will ultimately starve. If they refuse, they are often arrested, beaten up etc. These are the sorts of people that I've met a few of in the UK, and the disenfranchised landowners.

If a UN liberating force walked into the country tomorrow, I have absolutely no doubt they would be welcomed in the streets, and be surprised if they lost any troops. Would be a worthwhile cause too. Trouble is, its a matter of 'no gain, no pain'.

As already said, the rudiments of the education system are still in place; Zim still has a 90% literacy rate, which is very high for Africa, and possibly higher than parts of Europe and South America. Education can survive a lack of resources for a short period of time, because parents can teach, and the education ethic is something instilled in them.

The bit about dreams and aspirations is just a load of poppycock. You really do appear to look down on these people. Here's hoping a Zimbabwean family moves into Mr Brocks neighbourhood shortly, and opens his eyes.

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: I possibly was jumping to conclusions on this, but my main question is, does the average Zimbabwean (???) actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations? It boggles my mind how many in this world don't understand that concept, and that is the main point I was driving at....

What boggles the mind is that you can ask, with all sincerity, if people other than Americans "actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations."

Spoken like a true American that either never left the country or drove through bad areas feeling sorry for people.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Burt,

I'll stand aside, as I know little of the area (as I stated before). Very little is ever in the news over S. Africa... everyone (like Angela Jolie, Madonna, etc) love to rant about N. Africa, so that area gets far more coverage over here. Plus, since N. Africa is a place of turmoil, I have studied that place a bunch.

The only reasons I came to those conclusions are what dictators need to do to keep loyal subjects. They need to supress education and keep people believing that a born caste system is the correct system. If they were truely Westernized, surely they wouldn't stand to be run by a dictator (with unfair elections)?

I possibly was jumping to conclusions on this, but my main question is, does the average Zimbabwean (???) actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations? It boggles my mind how many in this world don't understand that concept, and that is the main point I was driving at....

Haha.. just to make it clear, there is no caste system operating in Zimbabwe as already stated; it is a Christian country, and the only realistic class divide is between landowners and workers. Mugabe has been on the rampage over the last few years to take away land from the (predominantly white) landowners and distribute it amongst his supporters and henchmen, in an effort to keep support. The people who work the land are forced to vote in his favour, or they are thrown out and will ultimately starve. If they refuse, they are often arrested, beaten up etc. These are the sorts of people that I've met a few of in the UK, and the disenfranchised landowners.

If a UN liberating force walked into the country tomorrow, I have absolutely no doubt they would be welcomed in the streets, and be surprised if they lost any troops. Would be a worthwhile cause too. Trouble is, its a matter of 'no gain, no pain'.

As already said, the rudiments of the education system are still in place; Zim still has a 90% literacy rate, which is very high for Africa, and possibly higher than parts of Europe and South America. Education can survive a lack of resources for a short period of time, because parents can teach, and the education ethic is something instilled in them.

The bit about dreams and aspirations is just a load of poppycock. You really do appear to look down on these people. Here's hoping a Zimbabwean family moves into Mr Brocks neighbourhood shortly, and opens his eyes.

I sincerly thank both you an Liam for good explinations. I really had no idea what really was going on over there, and it seems my assumptions were incorrect. Thanks.

I've been to many countries were the average population is so deprived of education and ability to escape thier born professions (thus a caste system Comrade), that they have little to no hopes, dreams or asperations... desiring only that which they can achieve within the moment. Trying to explain such thoughts was so foriegn to them (especially the Iraqis). I had a difficult time at first grasping that all people don't think like this (having dreams and aspirations).

EdelBrock wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: I possibly was jumping to conclusions on this, but my main question is, does the average Zimbabwean (???) actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations? It boggles my mind how many in this world don't understand that concept, and that is the main point I was driving at....

What boggles the mind is that you can ask, with all sincerity, if people other than Americans "actually have hopes, dreams and aspirations."

Spoken like a true American that either never left the country or drove through bad areas feeling sorry for people.

If by "never left the country," you mean I was never "seeing the world" from the confines of a military base, you're right. I did it on my own.