National Front disco closed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7328135.stm

Phew!

so what exactly are you implying in your thread title?

Why couldnt you title it "Word magazine forced to Apologise to Morrissey"

You're streak of posting nothing but utter SHIT continues unabated.

Chris Nash wrote: Yup, Morrissey has played 'Rock Against Racism' gigs, openly supported the 'Anti-Nazi League', spoken out against racism in music and society, done lots of great work supporting the 'ethnic minority' projects in Manchester and other British cities.

Allegedly.

I have done none of these things I have never attnded a "Rock against Racism" gig, and I dont think I ever will, because the whole concept is pointless and organised by blinded idealists.

Uncle Liam wrote: so what exactly are you implying in your thread title?

Why couldnt you title it "Word magazine forced to Apologise to Morrissey"

You're streak of posting nothing but utter SHIT continues unabated.

I would have thought it pretty obvious what i'm implying... But I guess even trollified political experts need a little hand holding down the path of the bleedin' obvious at times:

He was pretty ambigious and inflammatory re; racial politics around the time when he was writing songs such as 'National Front Disco'. Now it seems he is willing to come forward and clarify his position; that he is not a racist and does not support racism in any shape or form. I for one am glad that he is finally sending some clear signals regarding where he sits politically.

And if you think none of that history matters, then can you remember when Derek Beacon was elected and the NF were trying to make a comeback? It was very bad timing to be ambigious. Then again of course you do, you probably would have voted for them if you'd been old enough!

The rising tide of racism over the next few years culminated in some right wing nutter deciding to let off nail bombs to try and kill 'the blacks' and 'the queers', not that i'm saying that's Morrisey's fault, what I'm saying is that people, especially famous people, need to be careful about what signals they send out.

Comprende?

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote: so what exactly are you implying in your thread title?

Why couldnt you title it "Word magazine forced to Apologise to Morrissey"

You're streak of posting nothing but utter SHIT continues unabated.

I would have thought it pretty obvious what i'm implying... But I guess even trollified political experts need a little hand holding down the path of the bleedin' obvious at times:

He was pretty ambigious and inflammatory re; racial politics around the time when he was writing songs such as 'National Front Disco'. Now it seems he is willing to come forward and clarify his position; that he is not a racist and does not support racism in any shape or form. I for one am glad that he is finally sending some clear signals regarding where he sits politically.

And if you think none of that history matters, then can you remember when Derek Beacon was elected and the NF were trying to make a comeback? It was very bad timing to be ambigious. Then again of course you do, you probably would have voted for them if you'd been old enough!

The rising tide of racism over the next few years culminated in some right wing nutter deciding to let off nail bombs to try and kill 'the blacks' and 'the queers', not that i'm saying that's Morrisey's fault, what I'm saying is that people, especially famous people, need to be careful about what signals they send out.

Comprende?

Well, I really dont know where to start with this. Do I biother explaining for the MILLIONTH time what "The National Front Disco" is all about? Or all this hyperbolic racial nonsense, or the reference to David Copeland? Decisions, Decisions.

The song "The National Front Dsico" is a lament by a mother to her son who has joined The National Front, the lyric s "England for the English" is spoke in about the son, David. jesus its not fucking hard to understand. And it just shows how totally idiotic you are because if you knew what you were talking about, you'd refernece Bengali in platform or Asian Rut as examples of Morrisseys alleged Racism, but then again, it shouldnt surprise me that you're one of those people who sees the words "National" and "Front" used together and immediatley becomes offended, regardless of context. Hell, i bet you were offended when the BNP ran party political broadcasts in the run up to the last General Election?

*sigh*

The National Front, The BNP, or indeed any far right party has never, ever been a serious force in British Poltics. The BNP's best individual result in an election was when they won 16.5 of the vote in Saddleworth East in 2001. They came third and celebrated this as a major victory. Off the top of my head, I think they came 4th in the same constituiency in 2005 with about 8% of the vote. They were about 30% behind the Labour candidate in 2001, and never had a prayer of winning the seat. Of course, if they did win the seat, they would have achieved nothing. Labour has (and had) a workable majority and would never have needed to get the one solitary vote the BNP would have given them to get any legislation through Parliament. In fact, in 2005, I believe they lost their deposit in every seat they put a candidate in.

As for Local Government. Lets disregard the fac that councils have been powerless since the Local Givernment reforms under Thatcher, nationwide, the BNP has fifty two councillors. The conservatives have nearly two thousand.

Also, any gains that far right parties make in this country, (and in Western Europe in general, although the scale may vary, and have mitigating factors- Le Pen in the 2002 French presidential Election) tend to be very shortlived. You mention Derak Beacon. Who won a council seat in Millwall in 1993, I recall? A time of great economic problems for this country (well, it was the start of the recovery), so its not really surprising he won a seat, and then what happened, he faded into obscurity. What did he do while in "power"? Diddly squat.

I dont remember this "rising tide" in Racism. Its seems neither do the British Electorate, 0.1% of whom voted for a far right party in the 97 Election (compared with a monstrous 0.7 in 2005, which can probably be attibuted to a 10% drop in turnout more than anything else). What i do rember however, is that David Copeland was a psychotic loner who had serious issues emntally. And i believe is detained indefinitley in a mental health unit. So i fail to see how this alleged "rising tide of racism" has anything to do with thr actions of very disturbed man.

Now to make my own point. Maybe if the BNP (and not the National Front, as they are effectively a dead party) were invited into the political arena, to join the debate, (lets get Nick Griffin on Question Time) then idiots like you, Craig, wouldnt be so scared of them so much because you wouldnt be relying on a fucking SINGER to inform your political beliefs. I know of not one Morrissey fan- and I'd wager I know more than you- who supports any far right political party. In fact, they seem to be a pretty left leaning bunch, so one is forced to wonder if his alleged racist comments have had any effect on anyones political beliefs. In fact, why dont you go around and poll a BNP rally, and ask them why they support the BNP, and see how many say "Well, its because of what Morrissey said" Or should I save you the bother, and tell you right now, that NONE OF THEM would say that.

Comprende?

Uncle Liam wrote:

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote: so what exactly are you implying in your thread title?

Why couldnt you title it "Word magazine forced to Apologise to Morrissey"

You're streak of posting nothing but utter SHIT continues unabated.

I would have thought it pretty obvious what i'm implying... But I guess even trollified political experts need a little hand holding down the path of the bleedin' obvious at times:

He was pretty ambigious and inflammatory re; racial politics around the time when he was writing songs such as 'National Front Disco'. Now it seems he is willing to come forward and clarify his position; that he is not a racist and does not support racism in any shape or form. I for one am glad that he is finally sending some clear signals regarding where he sits politically.

And if you think none of that history matters, then can you remember when Derek Beacon was elected and the NF were trying to make a comeback? It was very bad timing to be ambigious. Then again of course you do, you probably would have voted for them if you'd been old enough!

The rising tide of racism over the next few years culminated in some right wing nutter deciding to let off nail bombs to try and kill 'the blacks' and 'the queers', not that i'm saying that's Morrisey's fault, what I'm saying is that people, especially famous people, need to be careful about what signals they send out.

Comprende?

Well, I really dont know where to start with this. Do I biother explaining for the MILLIONTH time what "The National Front Disco" is all about? Or all this hyperbolic racial nonsense, or the reference to David Copeland? Decisions, Decisions.

The song "The National Front Dsico" is a lament by a mother to her son who has joined The National Front, the lyric s "England for the English" is spoke in about the son, David. jesus its not fucking hard to understand. And it just shows how totally idiotic you are because if you knew what you were talking about, you'd refernece Bengali in platform or Asian Rut as examples of Morrisseys alleged Racism, but then again, it shouldnt surprise me that you're one of those people who sees the words "National" and "Front" used together and immediatley becomes offended, regardless of context. Hell, i bet you were offended when the BNP ran party political broadcasts in the run up to the last General Election?

*sigh*

The National Front, The BNP, or indeed any far right party has never, ever been a serious force in British Poltics. The BNP's best individual result in an election was when they won 16.5 of the vote in Saddleworth East in 2001. They came third and celebrated this as a major victory. Off the top of my head, I think they came 4th in the same constituiency in 2005 with about 8% of the vote. They were about 30% behind the Labour candidate in 2001, and never had a prayer of winning the seat. Of course, if they did win the seat, they would have achieved nothing. Labour has (and had) a workable majority and would never have needed to get the one solitary vote the BNP would have given them to get any legislation through Parliament. In fact, in 2005, I believe they lost their deposit in every seat they put a candidate in.

As for Local Government. Lets disregard the fac that councils have been powerless since the Local Givernment reforms under Thatcher, nationwide, the BNP has fifty two councillors. The conservatives have nearly two thousand.

Also, any gains that far right parties make in this country, (and in Western Europe in general, although the scale may vary, and have mitigating factors- Le Pen in the 2002 French presidential Election) tend to be very shortlived. You mention Derak Beacon. Who won a council seat in Millwall in 1993, I recall? A time of great economic problems for this country (well, it was the start of the recovery), so its not really surprising he won a seat, and then what happened, he faded into obscurity. What did he do while in "power"? Diddly squat.

I dont remember this "rising tide" in Racism. Its seems neither do the British Electorate, 0.1% of whom voted for a far right party in the 97 Election (compared with a monstrous 0.7 in 2005, which can probably be attibuted to a 10% drop in turnout more than anything else). What i do rember however, is that David Copeland was a psychotic loner who had serious issues emntally. And i believe is detained indefinitley in a mental health unit. So i fail to see how this alleged "rising tide of racism" has anything to do with thr actions of very disturbed man.

Now to make my own point. Maybe if the BNP (and not the National Front, as they are effectively a dead party) were invited into the political arena, to join the debate, (lets get Nick Griffin on Question Time) then idiots like you, Craig, wouldnt be so scared of them so much because you wouldnt be relying on a fucking SINGER to inform your political beliefs. I know of not one Morrissey fan- and I'd wager I know more than you- who supports any far right political party. In fact, they seem to be a pretty left leaning bunch, so one is forced to wonder if his alleged racist comments have had any effect on anyones political beliefs. In fact, why dont you go around and poll a BNP rally, and ask them why they support the BNP, and see how many say "Well, its because of what Morrissey said" Or should I save you the bother, and tell you right now, that NONE OF THEM would say that.

Comprende?

Blah blah blah...

I'm not afraid of Nick Griffin; I've been in the company of far worse.

Mozza's positioning in the 90's was bad timing to say the least, I bought the Vauxhall album, saw the irony and the sarcasm, and was a big fan until he decided to go all vague.

Yes I do find the BNP offensive; Only an extreme right winger (or an idiot talking shit, perhaps even a 'streak of shit') wouldn't.

They can have their say on TV or whatever, along with the monster raving looney party perhaps, but don't ever forget that the UK's economic success was and continues to be built on the back of immigrants.

Liam - good & eloquently put. I find it so boring & its starting to annoy me that some cocks go on about the evil Morrissey so much. Does it offend you-so what!! The bloke i was stood next to at the Sunderland Mozzer gig 2 months ago had a Che Guervara t-shirt on. So what. Now i know for sure he would not give a Fuck if he knew i used to listen to Ian Steward & Screwdriver. But i did. Does that make me a cunt for listening or do i have to attend rock against racism after-school clubs eh. But then again so did Suggs & Madness etc believe me.

Craig - does it confuse you that i also listen to Left- wing, commie ALF shit from Crass, Conflict etc.. went to London last Autumn just to attend the 'Feeding of the 5000' gig. I love it but i dont care about the 'message' mate, its the music. Penny Rimbauld/Steve Ignorant/Colin Jerwood talk out of their middle-class arses as far as im concerned but i still buy their cds' and pay for their gigs. Like Liam says you need to learn & understand Mozzers lyrics because you clearly do not. Then again, you never got over your 'problem' with vikings being drunken male loud leary heterosexuals did you. Bless...

Andrew Sayer wrote:

Craig - does it confuse you that i also listen to Left- wing, commie ALF shit from Crass, Conflict etc.. went to London last Autumn just to attend the 'Feeding of the 5000' gig. I love it but i dont care about the 'message' mate, its the music. Penny Rimbauld/Steve Ignorant/Colin Jerwood talk out of their middle-class arses as far as im concerned but i still buy their cds' and pay for their gigs. Like Liam says you need to learn & understand Mozzers lyrics because you clearly do not. Then again, you never got over your 'problem' with vikings being drunken male loud leary heterosexuals did you. Bless...

Does this confuse you?: Some people change their music buying habits based on what an artist stands for.

Does this confuse you?: I have no problem with Vikings. I just misunderstood the sense of humour when I first came to this site. If my apology was good enough for Al it should be good enough for anyone else, unless they are in training for Olympic grudge holding.

ffs craig,its great youve come back to post by the way.but why come on here though just to do your political correct police thing all over again.weve been through this stuff so many times!! ...lighten up a bit and have a laugh like most people on here are trying to do.

Chris Nash wrote: To quote Chumbawamba:

'Does anyone remember laughter?'

Even though they sold out to EMI

chumbawamba are burnley and west yorks dingles

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote:

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote: so what exactly are you implying in your thread title?

Why couldnt you title it "Word magazine forced to Apologise to Morrissey"

You're streak of posting nothing but utter SHIT continues unabated.

I would have thought it pretty obvious what i'm implying... But I guess even trollified political experts need a little hand holding down the path of the bleedin' obvious at times:

He was pretty ambigious and inflammatory re; racial politics around the time when he was writing songs such as 'National Front Disco'. Now it seems he is willing to come forward and clarify his position; that he is not a racist and does not support racism in any shape or form. I for one am glad that he is finally sending some clear signals regarding where he sits politically.

And if you think none of that history matters, then can you remember when Derek Beacon was elected and the NF were trying to make a comeback? It was very bad timing to be ambigious. Then again of course you do, you probably would have voted for them if you'd been old enough!

The rising tide of racism over the next few years culminated in some right wing nutter deciding to let off nail bombs to try and kill 'the blacks' and 'the queers', not that i'm saying that's Morrisey's fault, what I'm saying is that people, especially famous people, need to be careful about what signals they send out.

Comprende?

Well, I really dont know where to start with this. Do I biother explaining for the MILLIONTH time what "The National Front Disco" is all about? Or all this hyperbolic racial nonsense, or the reference to David Copeland? Decisions, Decisions.

The song "The National Front Dsico" is a lament by a mother to her son who has joined The National Front, the lyric s "England for the English" is spoke in about the son, David. jesus its not fucking hard to understand. And it just shows how totally idiotic you are because if you knew what you were talking about, you'd refernece Bengali in platform or Asian Rut as examples of Morrisseys alleged Racism, but then again, it shouldnt surprise me that you're one of those people who sees the words "National" and "Front" used together and immediatley becomes offended, regardless of context. Hell, i bet you were offended when the BNP ran party political broadcasts in the run up to the last General Election?

*sigh*

The National Front, The BNP, or indeed any far right party has never, ever been a serious force in British Poltics. The BNP's best individual result in an election was when they won 16.5 of the vote in Saddleworth East in 2001. They came third and celebrated this as a major victory. Off the top of my head, I think they came 4th in the same constituiency in 2005 with about 8% of the vote. They were about 30% behind the Labour candidate in 2001, and never had a prayer of winning the seat. Of course, if they did win the seat, they would have achieved nothing. Labour has (and had) a workable majority and would never have needed to get the one solitary vote the BNP would have given them to get any legislation through Parliament. In fact, in 2005, I believe they lost their deposit in every seat they put a candidate in.

As for Local Government. Lets disregard the fac that councils have been powerless since the Local Givernment reforms under Thatcher, nationwide, the BNP has fifty two councillors. The conservatives have nearly two thousand.

Also, any gains that far right parties make in this country, (and in Western Europe in general, although the scale may vary, and have mitigating factors- Le Pen in the 2002 French presidential Election) tend to be very shortlived. You mention Derak Beacon. Who won a council seat in Millwall in 1993, I recall? A time of great economic problems for this country (well, it was the start of the recovery), so its not really surprising he won a seat, and then what happened, he faded into obscurity. What did he do while in "power"? Diddly squat.

I dont remember this "rising tide" in Racism. Its seems neither do the British Electorate, 0.1% of whom voted for a far right party in the 97 Election (compared with a monstrous 0.7 in 2005, which can probably be attibuted to a 10% drop in turnout more than anything else). What i do rember however, is that David Copeland was a psychotic loner who had serious issues emntally. And i believe is detained indefinitley in a mental health unit. So i fail to see how this alleged "rising tide of racism" has anything to do with thr actions of very disturbed man.

Now to make my own point. Maybe if the BNP (and not the National Front, as they are effectively a dead party) were invited into the political arena, to join the debate, (lets get Nick Griffin on Question Time) then idiots like you, Craig, wouldnt be so scared of them so much because you wouldnt be relying on a fucking SINGER to inform your political beliefs. I know of not one Morrissey fan- and I'd wager I know more than you- who supports any far right political party. In fact, they seem to be a pretty left leaning bunch, so one is forced to wonder if his alleged racist comments have had any effect on anyones political beliefs. In fact, why dont you go around and poll a BNP rally, and ask them why they support the BNP, and see how many say "Well, its because of what Morrissey said" Or should I save you the bother, and tell you right now, that NONE OF THEM would say that.

Comprende?

Blah blah blah...

I'm not afraid of Nick Griffin; I've been in the company of far worse.

Mozza's positioning in the 90's was bad timing to say the least, I bought the Vauxhall album, saw the irony and the sarcasm, and was a big fan until he decided to go all vague.

Yes I do find the BNP offensive; Only an extreme right winger (or an idiot talking shit, perhaps even a 'streak of shit') wouldn't.

They can have their say on TV or whatever, along with the monster raving looney party perhaps, but don't ever forget that the UK's economic success was and continues to be built on the back of immigrants.

1- Vauxhall was released in 94m two years after Your Arsenal- which has "The National Front Disco" in it, and after The "Finsbury Park Incident.

2- Its nice to see that quoting statistics and medical facts can still get reffered to in this dayt and age as a "streak of shit"

3- I also quite like how you avoided nearly ever single point I made, to make some pathetic, not to mention wholly inaccuratre, statment which justifies your own position. Explain to me how, the economic success of the 90's was built off "off the back of immigrants"? There was me thinking it was a result of sensible economic policy, the groeth of the service based economy and favourable global economic conditions. Immigrants make up a relatively tiny proportion of the population, so how are they the basis of it?

And what the fuck do Vikings have to do with anything?

Racism was on the rise in the 90's in the UK; Stephen Lawrence, Derek Beacon (councillors do affect the community, it's warped parts of the community who do racist attacks), other murders, beatings and eventually Mr. Copeland - A fruit loop he may be, but even fruitloops take in whats coming at them from the media and the community.

Admittedly my memory is pretty patchy on what lyrics came from what album etc... It was the one with NF disco on when all the crap started...

I do remember Mozzer being quite ironic and sarcastic in songs about the BNP / NF. I loved his music up to this point then...

I remember reading some dodgy quotes from him in an interview in Q magazine, something about too many immigrants or black people and Englishness being undermined as a result, again I can't quite remember, but somebody must have a scan of the interview.

Then he was dancing on stage with a union jack after refusing to discuss the race stuff with the NME (the NME hadn't completely lost the plot by this point).

It was that Q interview that made me think WTF, maybe this guy wasn't taking the piss with songs like National Front disco.

He then stopped talking about it altogether after the Q interview, making me and others think he was part, albeit a very small part of the problem when I thought he had been part of the solution in taking the piss out of the NF / BNP.

Maybe I imagined some of this... Does anyone have the Q interview?

Anyway, I'm glad that this time he is standing up and pointing out where he stands. That's my main point. My other point is that he has fucked up in the past, if my memory of events is more or less correct.

Liam re; Vikings, just scroll back a couple of posts, it's not a response to you.

nowt wrong with having a union jack flag is there ? !! for a start,bengal in platforms is a very adearing song to overseas people having to adjust to our culture. why bother with all this shite anyway.would anyone (bar you) ever think someone like mosser was racist.people have had a go at him and fair play but even they have not called him racist! start a jolly thread instead craig,for once

It is just sad journalists trying to get stories, is the reason Morrissey won't talk to them (he is always mis-quoted).Don't believe everything you read. The journalists at the NME are bunch of cocks anyway

banshee wrote: nowt wrong with having a union jack flag is there ? !! for a start,bengal in platforms is a very adearing song to overseas people having to adjust to our culture. why bother with all this shite anyway.would anyone (bar you) ever think someone like mosser was racist.people have had a go at him and fair play but even they have not called him racist! start a jolly thread instead craig,for once

Nothing wrong with a Union Jack, or any other flag, as long as it's used to represent all the people of the country.

Sorry this thread ain't too cheery... Getting a bit tired of it meself!

Morrissey is certainly no racist. All that pallava during the early 90's was part of a fixation on macho culture he had at the time - Kray twins, boxing etc....Plus that flag waving stuff; nobody ever criticised Geri Halliwell or Oasis when they were doing so far more explicitly.

banshee wrote: for a start,bengal in platforms is a very adearing song to overseas people having to adjust to our culture.

Yer right. It came in the car about 6 months ago with my wife listening. I purposefully never played it around her, worried it might offend her, but at the end she giggled and said it was true and she understood well the emotions he was singing about.

The function of the BNP in the current political set up is to deflect attention from the fundamentally racist reforms of immigration law brought in by the Labour government since 1997. The BNP are an irrelevance. If you want to campaign agaisnt racism in politics there are far more powerful and deserving targets out there.

I bought Morriseys's greatest hits when I was in America last week cos it worked out to be only £6. I don't like it. Thank you and good night.

GlasVegas wrote: The function of the BNP in the current political set up is to deflect attention from the fundamentally racist reforms of immigration law brought in by the Labour government since 1997. The BNP are an irrelevance. If you want to campaign agaisnt racism in politics there are far more powerful and deserving targets out there.

I bought Morriseys's greatest hits when I was in America last week cos it worked out to be only £6. I don't like it. Thank you and good night.

Interesting. BNP or any X NP are to be taken in account. What you said about the fundamentally racist reforms of immigration law is also very interesting. Sarkozy understood it when he was standing for the Presidential election while Minister of Home Office. He even made the lapsus "he is the best of us", speaking of Blair, while candidate of the conservative party here.

If you do not make any racist reforms of immigration (we even have a minister of Immigration by now - sounds a bit nazi, no?) then, you find yourself with a Le Pen (Front National) at the second round od the presidential election. Or with someone like Haider in Austria. Or with a government like the Danish one. Or with a mediatic party like the Dutch one at the moment. I don't mention central European countries, I think we have seen the same things in Czechoslovakia.

Back to Morrissey, I agree with Al Jarvo. Better when he was the Smiths. From abroad, it sounded a bit politacally borderline, but it was more like a British delight. True that, by the beginning of the nineties, he sounded more like I sing for the Brits and I fart at the Continent. Only Parisian poshes care about him nowadays...

Jiphy wrote:

Only Parisian poshes care about him nowadays...

I'm POSH!

Didn't know I was Parisan though

Craig,

you're points are so badly made and incorrect ("Stephen Lawrence, Derek Beacon and other incidents" being the prime example)that you're not even worth trying to debate with. You have this warped view, which is at least as ignorant as any BNP material I've ever read, in which you seem to manipulate events, and make stuff up to justify it.

I dont know what you're problem is, but you just want to charaterize EVERYONE as a racist. Let me tell you something.

1- I believe in controlled immigration 2- I believe that Muslim Council of Britain has a disproprtionate amount of power in this country. 3- A significant reason for racial tension in this country is because immigrant communities have failed to integrate intro soceity and preferred to establish their own inward looking communities, which are almost like ghettos. 4- The failure of many immigrant children unable to speak English is one of the biggest problems facing this countrys education system.

So where do i get my BNP membership card?

But what I really want to know is this, why are you so quick to catergorize people as racists? This thread isnt the first time you've done ti. There have been countless others. What are you trying to justify to yourself? I have systematically destroyed your points iwth hard facts which you call a "streak of shit"!

One of the biggest myths that whats left of the Socialist movement in this country soins is how the government, mass media and corporations spread fear in order to either make money or maintain their own positions. YetI see just as much 9in relative terms anyway) fear peddling coming from the other side about far right extremism.

Uncle Liam wrote: Craig,

you're points are so badly made and incorrect ("Stephen Lawrence, Derek Beacon and other incidents" being the prime example)that you're not even worth trying to debate with. You have this warped view, which is at least as ignorant as any BNP material I've ever read, in which you seem to manipulate events, and make stuff up to justify it.

I dont know what you're problem is, but you just want to charaterize EVERYONE as a racist. Let me tell you something.

1- I believe in controlled immigration 2- I believe that Muslim Council of Britain has a disproprtionate amount of power in this country. 3- A significant reason for racial tension in this country is because immigrant communities have failed to integrate intro soceity and preferred to establish their own inward looking communities, which are almost like ghettos. 4- The failure of many immigrant children unable to speak English is one of the biggest problems facing this countrys education system.

So where do i get my BNP membership card?

But what I really want to know is this, why are you so quick to catergorize people as racists? This thread isnt the first time you've done ti. There have been countless others. What are you trying to justify to yourself? I have systematically destroyed your points iwth hard facts which you call a "streak of shit"!

One of the biggest myths that whats left of the Socialist movement in this country soins is how the government, mass media and corporations spread fear in order to either make money or maintain their own positions. YetI see just as much 9in relative terms anyway) fear peddling coming from the other side about far right extremism.

Nice ONE Liam

i bassically agree with liam's last statement bar one thing. immigrant communities failed to integrate into exsisting soceity!.not a bad thing really well,because in blackburn near where i live,the asian community dont mix with the original blackburnians.both groups live seperate lives.this is working and less flash points happen in blackburn than in the 80's when people made policies to mix the two cultures.so self brought about seperation is actually working at this time !!! .not much trouble,violence and tention is around because of keeping apart.bloody sad but its true

That lad Liam talks alot of sense!

Uncle Liam wrote: Craig,

you're points are so badly made and incorrect ("Stephen Lawrence, Derek Beacon and other incidents" being the prime example)that you're not even worth trying to debate with. You have this warped view, which is at least as ignorant as any BNP material I've ever read, in which you seem to manipulate events, and make stuff up to justify it.

I dont know what you're problem is, but you just want to charaterize EVERYONE as a racist. Let me tell you something.

1- I believe in controlled immigration 2- I believe that Muslim Council of Britain has a disproprtionate amount of power in this country. 3- A significant reason for racial tension in this country is because immigrant communities have failed to integrate intro soceity and preferred to establish their own inward looking communities, which are almost like ghettos. 4- The failure of many immigrant children unable to speak English is one of the biggest problems facing this countrys education system.

So where do i get my BNP membership card?

But what I really want to know is this, why are you so quick to catergorize people as racists? This thread isnt the first time you've done ti. There have been countless others. What are you trying to justify to yourself? I have systematically destroyed your points iwth hard facts which you call a "streak of shit"!

One of the biggest myths that whats left of the Socialist movement in this country soins is how the government, mass media and corporations spread fear in order to either make money or maintain their own positions. YetI see just as much 9in relative terms anyway) fear peddling coming from the other side about far right extremism.

Hang on, who did I call a racist? Can you quote the thread and page and name of whoever I called a raicst?; I'd be interested to see it as I've called no one a racist.

1- I believe in controlled immigration- That's OK.

2- I believe that Muslim Council of Britain has a disproprtionate amount of power in this country

• Why?

3- A significant reason for racial tension in this country is because immigrant communities have failed to integrate intro soceity and preferred to establish their own inward looking communities, which are almost like ghettos- They only do this because bullshit racism forces them to if they are not accepted into mainstream communities. Turn on the TV, listen to some music, ask your co-workers where they come from, watch some sport... You may see some non white faces, most of whom are from immigrant communities that are well integrated.

4- The failure of many immigrant children unable to speak English is one of the biggest problems facing this countrys education system- Yes, a problem, not one of the biggest though.

And you were the first to say all my recent posts were a 'streak a shit', I've called yours the same and surprise surprise you don't like it. Maybe you should refer to people's posting opinions as a point of view not a 'streak of shit'.Your facts aren't that hard and you conveniently ignore the bits that you don't want to answer: Have you got a scan of the Morrisey Q magazine interview from the 90's or not?

ROCKET MICK wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote: Craig,

One of the biggest myths that whats left of the Socialist movement in this country soins is how the government, mass media and corporations spread fear in order to either make money or maintain their own positions. YetI see just as much 9in relative terms anyway) fear peddling coming from the other side about far right extremism.

Nice ONE Liam

Et tu Rocketre?

Uncle Liam wrote: 1- I believe in controlled immigration 2- I believe that Muslim Council of Britain has a disproprtionate amount of power in this country. 3- A significant reason for racial tension in this country is because immigrant communities have failed to integrate intro soceity and preferred to establish their own inward looking communities, which are almost like ghettos. 4- The failure of many immigrant children unable to speak English is one of the biggest problems facing this countrys education system.

1- It is a new 'international' motto, like Socialists used to have some. In brief, this concept of controlled immigration is a complete utopia to me. Take a look. The USA raised a wall on the Mexican border. Does it solve something ? If you want to control immigrancy, you have to build a Berlin Wall, with custom officers ready to fire. By a few decades, there will be more immigration candidates than bullets. 2- Muslim Council of France is like yours. Problem is that Islam spreads itself quickly while the Catholic Church losses strengh everyday. A survey claims that Brussels, in a few years, will be the largest islamic town in Europe. How is that possible ? See 3. 3- It is true that "immigrant communities have failed to integrate [...] which are almost like ghettos". This process does evoluate faster in liberal countries. And when you are a local, on the dole, you find yourself very quick in these ghettos - the only places you can afford to find a shelter or, more probably council flats. Who is the one who gives back hope there ? The priest ? No, the local immam. I do not know if there are figures of that, but at the moment, in Europe, I am sure that more Europeans convert to Islam than people coming from overseas converting to catholisism or protestantism. 4- Failure of children learning the local language. It is the same story everywhere. As former teacher of French, I can tell you that your name can be Dupont, Mbila, Martin, Zidane, Trung, Ravier, N'dour or whatever, when you are a wanker, you are a wanker. That's my point.

If you are a bit of nostalgic, like me, what says Morrissey about Britain talks to anyone who thinks at his own country with nostalgia.

However, History goes on and, pleasant or not, we will be invaded by people from abroad with different ways of living. By invasion I mean that they will be too many to be welcomed as they should be, like we mean to welcome guests, gentlemen as we are.

Jiphy wrote: 1- It is a new 'international' motto, like Socialists used to have some. In brief, this concept of controlled immigration is a complete utopia to me. Take a look. The USA raised a wall on the Mexican border. Does it solve something ? If you want to control immigrancy, you have to build a Berlin Wall, with custom officers ready to fire. By a few decades, there will be more immigration candidates than bullets.

The main difference with the Berlin wall and the Mexican border is the flow of traffic... we're not shooting our own citezens from escaping to another country....

The wall is still in progress. I helped build a porton in Arizona. There are areas where mountians are on the border. It is still very difficult to get any supplies (cost effectively) to these areas, so they are only barbed wire fences. Alot of the drug and human trafficing happens through these weak points.... these are the ones they are trying to improve.

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote: Craig,

you're points are so badly made and incorrect ("Stephen Lawrence, Derek Beacon and other incidents" being the prime example)that you're not even worth trying to debate with. You have this warped view, which is at least as ignorant as any BNP material I've ever read, in which you seem to manipulate events, and make stuff up to justify it.

I dont know what you're problem is, but you just want to charaterize EVERYONE as a racist. Let me tell you something.

1- I believe in controlled immigration 2- I believe that Muslim Council of Britain has a disproprtionate amount of power in this country. 3- A significant reason for racial tension in this country is because immigrant communities have failed to integrate intro soceity and preferred to establish their own inward looking communities, which are almost like ghettos. 4- The failure of many immigrant children unable to speak English is one of the biggest problems facing this countrys education system.

So where do i get my BNP membership card?

But what I really want to know is this, why are you so quick to catergorize people as racists? This thread isnt the first time you've done ti. There have been countless others. What are you trying to justify to yourself? I have systematically destroyed your points iwth hard facts which you call a "streak of shit"!

One of the biggest myths that whats left of the Socialist movement in this country soins is how the government, mass media and corporations spread fear in order to either make money or maintain their own positions. YetI see just as much 9in relative terms anyway) fear peddling coming from the other side about far right extremism.

Hang on, who did I call a racist? Can you quote the thread and page and name of whoever I called a raicst?; I'd be interested to see it as I've called no one a racist.

1- I believe in controlled immigration- That's OK.

2- I believe that Muslim Council of Britain has a disproprtionate amount of power in this country

• Why?

3- A significant reason for racial tension in this country is because immigrant communities have failed to integrate intro soceity and preferred to establish their own inward looking communities, which are almost like ghettos- They only do this because bullshit racism forces them to if they are not accepted into mainstream communities. Turn on the TV, listen to some music, ask your co-workers where they come from, watch some sport... You may see some non white faces, most of whom are from immigrant communities that are well integrated.

4- The failure of many immigrant children unable to speak English is one of the biggest problems facing this countrys education system- Yes, a problem, not one of the biggest though.

And you were the first to say all my recent posts were a 'streak a shit', I've called yours the same and surprise surprise you don't like it. Maybe you should refer to people's posting opinions as a point of view not a 'streak of shit'.Your facts aren't that hard and you conveniently ignore the bits that you don't want to answer: Have you got a scan of the Morrisey Q magazine interview from the 90's or not?

Well, in answer to the question, No, i do not have a scan magazine. I do have an original copy though.

Any more questions you want answers on?

Now answer me these.

On what grounds was there a rise in racial tension during the 1990's? The Stephen Lawrence murder was an isolated incident (and I'm struggling to think of another similar event) and the Derek Beacon result was an irrelevancy set agsinst Econominc turmoil. What else happenned for the rest of the decade for you to make such a statement?

How is having classrooms where children dont speak Wnglish, but a multuitude of languages, not a big problem? Can you think of anything bigger? Hell, i'm a) training to be a teacher and b) was involved in studying education policy for four years, and with the possible exception of isolated incidents of violence, I cant think of anything.

and seeing as you cant get it through your head. Let me give you an example. My next door negihbour is a primary school teacher. She now teaches at the local primary school where i think everyone has English as a first lanaguage (oh, and 90% of the pupils are white). She came from another school, where she had ten students, out twenty three, who coyuld not speak English as a first lanaguage. The lanaguages spoken were, English, Polish, Romanian, Slovak, Magyar, and German. First off all, how can she be exepcted to teach that class effectively? and b) How can these kids be expected to learn anything?

3- How does "Bullshit Racism" force these communiteis to effectively create a segregated soceity? Well thats a bit strange, because surely the 'bullshit' racists would force this with every one of our immigrant communities? alas, thats not the case, is it? We'll take listening to some Music from your little list, as its probably the easiest one to do.

Looking at my wall, and the hundreds of gig tickets i have on my wall, it doesnt say anywhere "Whites Only" or "No Blacks" or "No Asians" or anything remotely like that. But what I do know is, that the BBC has a station called £Radio 1 Extra" which is apparently (I've never listened to it) dedicated to various forms of "Black Music". They also have BBC Asian Network, and guess who that is aimed at? And what music does that play? Well, its plays Asian hip Hop, Asian Pop Music, etc etc. Is it a surprise that Asian people like this kind of music, or should they all be coming with me to watch Interpol?

Lets have a quick blast at Sport as well. You ever watched a Cricket match pitting England versus India/Pakistan/Sri lanka/West Indies? have you seen the crowds? England fans are in the majority, believe me.

But you're probably referring to Football. Well, every time I go to Edgeley Park to watch the mighty Stockport County, I see thousands of emtpy seats. Stockport County is one of the more active clubs in the local community, regularly visiting schools etc etc. I dont see many "non whites" there? But what can anyone do? No one is stopping anyone from coming. I'd love county to get more fans in. I daresay this is the case across the country, but you cant force people to go.

So there's two sports where I've demonstrated there is no "bullshit Racism" I could of course mention the sucess that Black Athletes have in this country with Boxing, Athletics.

So where is this "Bullshit Racism" in Sports? And Music? And TV? TV is more multi cultural than ever. Just look at The Apprentice.

So, explain to me how "Bullshit Racism" has forced communities to effectively segregate themselves and create their own societiy?

Your posts are a streak of shit because they are ignorant, incorrect, and have no grounding except your horribly misguided opinions. My arguments have been backed up by fact, be it in the form election results, medical reports, reading articles about the people you quote etc etc. Your statements are based on the "he's using the words National front, so he must be a racist" and some horribly conceived notion thaqt England is a institutionally racist country.

answer my questions, clearly. and I'll answer any of yours. If i'm going to be a teacher I suppose I'm going to have to teach everyone...

CRIKEY!!!!!

Dearest Liam,

So you have the ‘hard evidence’ of the Q interview but you don’t want to scan and post a jpg of it so that we can see what was said. Funny that.

You also don’t want to tell me who, specifically, I have called a racist. Shouldn’t be that hard given your allegation.

Two missing sets of hard facts. Wonder why.

Election results and medical reports and all the rest of your ‘hard fact’ doesn’t change other hard facts which I’ll repeat again seeing as you’ve had trouble understanding it (attention to detail is quite important as a teacher):

1. I’ve already stated why there was a rise of racism in the UK in the nineties (Stephen Lawrence, Derek Beacon, Black police custody deaths and beatings, some small scale riots, BNP posting leaflets to schools (you might want to think about how you’re going to deal with that one) and in black neighbourhoods, intimidation in the East End, the nail bomber). I lived in SE London and worked in East London. Where were you?

2. A BNP councillor can affect a community in a major way. A large part of quality of life is determined at the local and individual level. Councillors affect this. Racist councillors are bad news for the community, surely even you can grasp this?

3. Sorry, I missed your ‘medical report’ Dr. Liam, but so what if the nail bomber was mentally ill? Mentally ill people still respond to the media and to the attitude of people around them. Just because he was mad, it doesn’t excuse him from being a racist and a homophobe.

You seem to have got a bit irked by my term ‘bullshit racism’. All racism is bullshit isn’t it? Or maybe you have a nice kind of racism you can see out there?

You seem to have grabbed the wrong end of the stick with my point about minorities in the media and the community. I am not saying that sports, entertainment or music (oh, by the way, you’ll need to deal with your problem with hip hop if you want to understand youth culture as a teacher) is racist. I am saying that the presence of minorities in mainstream media is evidence that minorities do integrate into culture, they are not naturally inclined to building ghettos.

People only live in ghettos when economic and social circumstances force them to. A lot of this is driven by racism. They do not cut themselves off from society voluntarily. Not all minorities live in ghettos because they have managed to integrate as the generations go by. Wind the clock back 40 years and you’ll find that people were talking about Jamaicans they way they do about the Polish now.

What are bigger problems than people who can’t speak English in school? I find it hard not burst out laughing at this point…

Violence, stabbings, disrespect towards teachers, a lack of staff, a lack of experienced staff, inability to retain staff long term, supporting statemented children, class sizes and underfunding are the ones that trip off the top of my head. I worked with teachers for a couple of years and have kids so I have seen the system from both ends.

Step back and look at the big picture. The UK has spent billions on it’s war in Iraq. A small portion of that money could have been spent on programmes to make sure immigrant kids can speak English. I know you are going to say this is simplistic, well yes, it is, because it is simple!

The UK needs it’s immigrants. Who else would drive the buses, mop the hospitals, nurse the patients, perform the operations, even teach the kids or play in the football teams or even manage them (even Capello doesn’t speak English, yet somehow the game continues to function)!

I am not ignorant, incorrect or horribly misguided. Admittedly my memory is a bit fried and I am happy to put my hand up and admit to that when I am wrong. That’s not the case here. This is a case of you having your outlook and me having mine.

As a potential teacher you are going to have to get used to adopting this attitude.

Forever humble in the presence of you politics degree,

Craig.

Chris Nash wrote: The weird thing is that no one so far has mentioned that Morrissey on his own is average-no-one-cares-anymore-crap

Or that Joy Division were Nazis...

Snorri xxx

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

1. I’ve already stated why there was a rise of racism in the UK in the nineties (Stephen Lawrence, Derek Beacon, Black police custody deaths and beatings, some small scale riots, BNP posting leaflets to schools (you might want to think about how you’re going to deal with that one) and in black neighbourhoods, intimidation in the East End, the nail bomber). I lived in SE London and worked in East London. Where were you?

Different SE London to the one i was living in then. Thought racist incidents were on the decline, particularly after the wave of them in the early eighties in Brixton; people were boarding up shops in Kent as a result.

As for the nail-bomber, he was an isolated mentally unbalanced loner, who started his campaign by blowing up a gay pub.

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

2. A BNP councillor can affect a community in a major way. A large part of quality of life is determined at the local and individual level. Councillors affect this. Racist councillors are bad news for the community, surely even you can grasp this?

In the end its a democracy. People actually vote these people in sometimes, believe it or not, as a protest vote to the competition. They have no power though. I dont remember any Gestapo like council mobs running down the streets or anything.

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

People only live in ghettos when economic and social circumstances force them to. A lot of this is driven by racism.

No its driven by money, and living amongst friends.

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

Step back and look at the big picture. The UK has spent billions on it’s war in Iraq. A small portion of that money could have been spent on programmes to make sure immigrant kids can speak English. I know you are going to say this is simplistic, well yes, it is, because it is simple!

Simple, yes, in a simpleton's world.

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

The UK needs it’s immigrants. Who else would drive the buses, mop the hospitals, nurse the patients, perform the operations, even teach the kids or play in the football teams or even manage them (even Capello doesn’t speak English, yet somehow the game continues to function)!

Just utterly ridiculous. Immigration in my view, and the minimum wage, have basically stopped us falling into recession for the last few years, by paying pathetic wages. No thought at all has gone into the consequences of millions of Eastern European children born here over the next generation. A timebomb waiting to happen.

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

I am not ignorant, incorrect or horribly misguided.

Wrong on three counts.

Craig - i was thinking of moving to Mogadishu in Somalia with my white working class Judeo Christian family. Could you please put a word in with the local LEA, because i've heard you say they should spend some of their money on helping us all integrate & learn the language because we are too lazy & unwilling to. I also expect my child will get quality language tuition from a caring Somalian Muslim teacher who does not have any predudices. After a hard days standing around looking for the nearest social office i would then like to go & worship at church - thats if they haven't burnt them all down.

Your a right fooking muppet mate, trouble with all you right on pc types is your blinded by your ignorance of whats happening. And when someone like Liam explains/justifies his reasoning (which granted he doesnt always do) you cannot take it. I love talking to adults like yourself, because oneday mate you will realise whats happening.

Dear Burt,

Not every fight or riot made headline news.

Guess you never heard of Combat 18, nor saw the aftermath of some of the things they did to people (physically).

Wrong on three counts? Er, no.

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote: Dear Burt,

Not every fight or riot made headline news.

Guess you never heard of Combat 18, nor saw the aftermath of some of the things they did to people (physically).

Wrong on three counts? Er, no.

haha.. Tw@

Classic drama queen stuff. Can't remember Combat 18 doing much at all. Mickey mouse act. They only came to media attention after the nail bomber attacked, when it became obvious they had disowned him.

I could be completely wrong, Craig, but I thought you had buggered off to another country a while back. It's probably nice there.

I dont have a scanner.

Snorrimon wrote:

Chris Nash wrote: The weird thing is that no one so far has mentioned that Morrissey on his own is average-no-one-cares-anymore-crap

Or that Joy Division were Nazis...

Snorri xxx

Quite (pales the Morrissey argument into a pulp)!

Nick King wrote:

Snorrimon wrote:

Chris Nash wrote: The weird thing is that no one so far has mentioned that Morrissey on his own is average-no-one-cares-anymore-crap

Or that Joy Division were Nazis...

Snorri xxx

Quite (pales the Morrissey argument into a pulp)!

NO/JD have been crystal clear about what they did. No ambiguity there.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

Classic drama queen stuff. Can't remember Combat 18 doing much at all.

Tell that to the 30% burns victim I looked after and the few other people who suffered similar fates.

Nick King wrote:

Snorrimon wrote:

Chris Nash wrote: The weird thing is that no one so far has mentioned that Morrissey on his own is average-no-one-cares-anymore-crap

Or that Joy Division were Nazis...

Snorri xxx

Quite (pales the Morrissey argument into a pulp)!

Shut it Nick, you RACIST.

You're WHITE, you have SHORT HAIR, you look a bit like a 30-something TIN TIN, you work in fucking TELFORD, you like New Order and you're called KING.

If that's not white supremacist material I don't know what is.

[magenta]DigitalWaters[/magenta] wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote:

Classic drama queen stuff. Can't remember Combat 18 doing much at all.

Tell that to the 30% burns victim I looked after and the few other people who suffered similar fates.

The boy who cried wolf.

30 degree burns? I'm sure some of the 7/7 victims families would find that shocking.

PETER COATES'S BELATED REDEMPTION wrote:

Nick King wrote:

Snorrimon wrote:

Chris Nash wrote: The weird thing is that no one so far has mentioned that Morrissey on his own is average-no-one-cares-anymore-crap

Or that Joy Division were Nazis...

Snorri xxx

Quite (pales the Morrissey argument into a pulp)!

Shut it Nick, you RACIST.

You're WHITE, you have SHORT HAIR, you look a bit like a 30-something TIN TIN, you work in fucking TELFORD, you like New Order and you're called KING.

If that's not white supremacist material I don't know what is.

Deffo KKK material. I bet he dances round the fire after taking his white hood off.

I cant be bothered doing a big quotation so I'll see how I remember this.

Craig,

you're who brought up this Q Magazine article, so why dont you find a copy. If you think that I'm digging around the attic looking for it amongst the thousands of magazines I've got, then you're very sadly mistaken. And I dont have a scanner.

as for the racist, again,I cant be bothered going back through your posts, but you have implied many times that people are prejudiced, be they are racist, or homophobic on this board.

From the time Derek Beacon was elected, May 1993, i was living Here and then Here. I was being educated Here and then Here. But whats that got to do with the price of fish?

The fact is, despite being a staunch working class area, witha large immigrant community, there was precisely ZERO racial tension in the area.

You can convince yourself until you are blue in the face that a singular local councillor has an effect, but the fact is, they dont. Especially in mostly working class areas. In the time period you specified, Labour had such dominance after Black Wednesday in these areas that they had larger majorities than normal, and even in the areas of NOC (which i can assure you Millwall was not) such was the stregth of the other parties that the BNP never had a chance of influencing anything. Now, do i need to into any further detail about Local Government? Or is still not clear? Or does some jobber gettintg 700 votes, in a council ward on a 355 turnout still quantify as a sign of rising racial tension?

The mdeical report of David Copeland. Which is widely available, (or at least a synopsis). You are putting 2 and 2 togehter and getting 657. You cannot name, evne though I have you repeatedly, to name any of these incidents of rising racial tension between may 1993 and April 1999. Do you realise how easy it is to go out and pick up any political material? Even before the days of the Internet- which was around in the 90's. The stuff that David Copeland collected was not your ordinary run of the mill press cuttings. material, written, compiled, and distributed by various far right organisations. What he did was not a reflection on soceity, it was the acts of a depressed lunatic. If you say it is a reflection on soceity, then I coulf argue that Chris Benoit killing his wife and seven year old son last year is a reflection on the professional wrestling business. Or OJ Simpson a reflection on american Football... the list could be endless, if thw whole concept wasnt so ridiculous.

Do certain communities not cut themselves off? Hmmm. Explain to me how, in Oldham, Blackburn, and Burnley, there are areas that are solely now Asian. I am sure that this is also the case in Leicester, Birmingham and Glasgow as well. And I know its true in parts of Manchester. Hyde, most of Rusholme (although this is changing due to the influx of students), most of Levenhulme, Ashton under Lyne to name but four. It is these areas where a community is inward looking, which ultimately breeds distrust amongst the other. Dont believe me? look at Northern Ireland. Some communities have integrated excellenty into this country. One needs look no further than thr Carribean community. I also give great credit to the Polish Community. But can one say that the Sikh community in certain psrts of the country has been willing to integrate itself? And, over the last seven years, the Islamic Community, has, in certain parts, failed spectacularly at ingrating.

Let me give you an example. I was in my old college two months ago, catching up with my old Law teacher and making a few enquiries. This is the college I left not seven years ago. so not a great deal of time. I had a walk around at lunchtime, and I was amazed at how segregated the place had become. admuittedly, my group at college was 1005 white, but thats because it was 100% white classes (Law, History and Politics A-Levels, which probably explains it) but I had frineds who had friends who were black, asian, chinese, erm.... welsh etc etc. Nowadays, the asian lads hang out together, the asain girls hang out together, the white kids hang out togehter, and the black kids hang out together. Even more disturbing, I saw about five Asian girls picked up at the GATE of the college at lunchtime. Of course, i cant prove why, but I was told this was nto a one off and happenned every day.

School Violence? Dont make me laugh. An isolated incident here and there and everyone jumps out if theri chair and demands action. Its like Helen Lovejoy out of The Simpsons "wont somebody please think of the Children!"

Class sizes have dropped since labour came in. When i was in Primary School, I was in a class of 34. My little brother highest class size has been twenty two. And he's been to two different schools. As for Underfunding? Well, its not perfect, but hell, they have a lot more than they did in my day. And my day wasnt that long ago.

To say that kids not speaking English is not one of the biggest problems facing the education system in this country is an insult to every single teacher in this country. How are they supposed to do their jobs properly if they have to deal with twenty five kids speaking seven different languagea? How are the kids supposed to leanr anything? How are they supposed to develop? How are they supposed to interact and learn social skills when they cant speak to the other kids, nevermind the teachers? and you're telling me that this isnt a big problem? Is it any wonder why there is a shortage of teachers when this is what they have to put up with?

As for disrespect in the classroms, Well, i must say, I quite admire the bon voyeur of todays youth. Engage with people and they will engage with you. So maybe this disprespect malarkey is due to BAD TEACHERS. Ever thought of that? Probably not, because its always somebody elses faukt, isnt it?

As for your ludicrous suggestion about the funds from The Iraq war being used to teach kids English. here's a nice simple question for you:

Why should the givernment pony up the cash to teach English tro children whose parents coundnt be bothered to do it themselves?

And, while its purely hypothetical, why should the people to benefit from the money that has been spent on the Iraq war be the ones who havent given anything back to the country which has given them the chance of a potentially brighter future? A bit unfair, surely? Why shouldnt everyone benefit from this extra cash?

Does the UK needs its immigrants? To a certain extent, yes. Have they been of benefit? In certain areas, yes. But pre 2004 there was no ad campaign in Poland asking people to come here. I have nothing but mostly positive things to say about this countrys Polish community, they've plugged the gap in the Labour market reasonably effectively and I think settled in quite well. But then again, its probably to early to say how successful their mass immigration has been. Does the countyr need immigrant communities creating a segregated soceity? Somehow, i think not.

oh, and Capello can speak English. He just wont speak to the media in English because he think they'll twist his words if he makes a mistake.

And its two degrees by the way.

Chris Nash wrote: I've taught English to both adults and children, both white British and those from immigrant backgrounds. The primary school age children were brilliant. They were enthusiastic, quick to learn and a joy to teach. Those were the immigrant kids. The 'British' kids were generally slower and less eager to learn. When it came to 'Parents' Evenings' it became obvious why this situation had arisen. The parents from immigrant families were desperate for their children to integrate, learn English as best they could and be able to better themselves in order to survive with any degree of comfort in a society that was likely to be hard on them. The 'British' parents seemed disinterested for the most part, and although they complained about, 'Foreigners who can't even speak our language' I found that most of them were barely able to construct a complete sentence in English, especially those who ended every other sentence with, 'Innit?'.

Same thing here. And it is more difficult with teenagers.

PETER COATES'S BELATED REDEMPTION wrote:

Nick King wrote:

Snorrimon wrote:

Chris Nash wrote: The weird thing is that no one so far has mentioned that Morrissey on his own is average-no-one-cares-anymore-crap

Or that Joy Division were Nazis...

Snorri xxx

Quite (pales the Morrissey argument into a pulp)!

Shut it Nick, you RACIST.

You're WHITE, you have SHORT HAIR, you look a bit like a 30-something TIN TIN, you work in fucking TELFORD, you like New Order and you're called KING.

If that's not white supremacist material I don't know what is.

Tintin used to be one of my nicknames!

I’ve already stated the events that were of concern re; racism in the UK in the nineties, but I’ll post them again until I’m white in the finger:

Derek Beacon and intimidation in the East End (turn out was low because of the intimidation), the BNP posting leaflets to schools and in neighbourhoods where black and white people were rubbing along more or less quite nicely (Bermondsy and Peckham), Stephen Lawrence, police custody deaths and beatings, the institutional racism of the police, some small scale riots, the nail bomber and combat 18’s activities.

You were living up North, so maybe that’s why you think it’s all insignificant and causally unrelated.

To answer your new questions (I presume the rest are rhetorical):

Q: Why should the givernment pony up the cash to teach English tro children whose parents coundnt be bothered to do it themselves?

It’s not that they can’t be bothered, it’s more like their own language is patchy and they are working 50+ hour weeks. The government is happy for them to do crappy jobs on minimum wage so why not give them at least a bit of a helping hand with the language? This would help integration and reduce strain on teachers (just what you want).

Q: And, while its purely hypothetical, why should the people to benefit from the money that has been spent on the Iraq war be the ones who havent given anything back to the country which has given them the chance of a potentially brighter future? A bit unfair, surely? Why shouldnt everyone benefit from this extra cash?

See the answer to the first question. Spending money on language lessons is far better than spending money on a futile war that has resulted in an outrageous amount of death. Everyone does benefit. An English speaking immigrant can do his or her job with greater ease and efficiency, meaning the hospitals could be cleaner etc.. etc…

And yip yip for your two degrees (and a possible third on the way?), you’ve certainly got your money’s worth out of the UK’s education system!

I do not understand why I do not find that controlled immigration is a good thing.

Of course, I understand your aspiration. One of our Prime, Socialist, said, by the eighties, that our country could not afford to take in charge all the misery of the world. Everyone agrees with such a statement.

Controlled immigration. I try to understand this concept. I think that I get it, in theory, seen from home. But I would like to understand the whole, from A to Z. It looks like a logistics supply chain to me. Local job market is in need of 2,000 Polish plumbers, open the gates and close it behind the 2,000th. The market needs 6,000 nurses but can only pay 4,500 ones according to local minimum wages? Let in 1,500 Spanish nurses. One year later, we realize that 5,000 were enough. Expel 1,000 Moroccan ones. But the businessmen inform the Président that they are to sell two squadrons of Rafale to Morocco. Contre-order. Expel all the Tunisian ones and a few Spanish ones to make the count! I am not sure that it would work as easy than that. And… we are between people of good company, here. It is not the case of many people around us. White is still a preferred colour even if it costs an impossible Polish name to say and to write…

That is why I think controlled immigration is a semantic trick.

I believe that Track and Field is one of the best sports ever! screw all other sports, like footyball.... does that make me a race-ist?

A good teacher removes barriers to learning - not builds them. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be teaching.

Fact.

No one is defending racism, its just that someone is saying there is racism when, as far as I can see, there isnt.

Et tu Rocketre?

I said NICE ONE LIAM.I just WANTED to say this.Craig don't get all humpty and start a ROCK AGAINST ROCKET!I have ENOUGH enemies in the REAL world.Mainly EX-WIVES.

El Jarvo wrote: Really disappoints me this forum sometimes.

You can write all the essays you want on the subject, some people posting here are just your basic kneejerk reactionary cnuts when it comes to race, no matter how you dress it up.

Still, s'pose I can sleep easy knowing the future of the White Race is in safe hands.

Not one person has stated a racist comment on this thread. I think you should re read the post.

The Boy wrote:

El Jarvo wrote: Really disappoints me this forum sometimes.

You can write all the essays you want on the subject, some people posting here are just your basic kneejerk reactionary cnuts when it comes to race, no matter how you dress it up.

Still, s'pose I can sleep easy knowing the future of the White Race is in safe hands.

Not one person has stated a racist comment on this thread. I think you should re read the post.

But its not blinkered or racist to say its happening. It obviously doesnt apply to all Muslims in the country, nor is it limited to Muslims (Sikhs in parts of Brum for example), or even does it apply to all Muslims in that Community. Buyt it is happenning. And to say its happenning is not in anyway racist or blinkered.

EDIT: SOURCE

But you're talking individual examples, I'm talking about whole communites. Now, i didnt say that all muslims live in these communities, but a lot do. And its nto just me, or various research bodies saying it, Hazel Blears acknowledged it last week, David Cameron has done it before. So i dont see what the problem is in saying that these isolated communities exist.

Edited to Add: And when the head of the Race Watchdog syas they exist, then I'm inclined to agree with him. Even if he did apoligise after. He did say his claims were supported by evidence though.

And, at Interpol last year. I do vaguely remember Alex having a chat with someone about recording equipment. The onyl thing I can clearly remember is Dave Legge pissing on your floor!

I'm going to have to reluctantly agree with Liam regarding Muslim communities often being closed up. 40% of my customers are Muslim, and in the end I wouldnt care if they were Satanists, as long as they paid the bill.

I work in South London, and there is a small community in the Streatham/Tooting area; I recently got kicked out of supplying a busy shop in Streatham, the reason stated was that it was because i or the owner of my company are not Muslim. Thankfully i went past there today and the owner called me over, apologised and asked me to supply him again. In East London, we have to employ a Muslim rep, as its the best way to maintain business.

From an accounts/finance/credit point of view, we have been forced to have a policy of looking at the country of origin, before even considering giving credit, sad though it may seem. Everyone from Turkey, Egypt, North Africa and the Kurdish are absolutely fine; some of the nicest chaps you could possibly meet. I often see them smoking outside the shops etc, talking about going to the pub etc; when challenged they reply 'its in my heart'. Unfortunately, my company is let down dramatically by Pakistani customers, Muslim or not; the Turks all tell me its a religious instruction to knock non-Muslim suppliers for money, although i reckon they are pulling my leg.

For the record, English and West African run shops are terrible with money too. Guess that's why we dont run shops any more. Just to add to that, no problems at all with Hindu run shops, Sri Lankans. Best customers by a mile are Sikh.

I find stereotypes a bit humourous. Everyone gets sooooo offended by them. But stereotypes don't come outta thin air, there is a basis to them. People shouldn't base all thier judgement on a stereotype, but it's the starting point. We all use them..... (and racism is one of many stereotypes)

...what usually cracks me up is when you see someone fit a stereotype to a 'T'. You know they're probably also the type to make a big deal outta the stereotype as well....

Some of my best friends are human.

Its not about stereotypes to me.. its just good old fashioned cash. Customer today in Battersea asked for credit again today, despite bouncing 7 cheques last year out of a total of 11 orders. I politely said 'cash only'. It's a shame it has to come to that, but its just business in the end.

Was it a DOG Burt?

ROCKET MICK wrote: Et tu Rocketre?

I said NICE ONE LIAM.I just WANTED to say this.Craig don't get all humpty and start a ROCK AGAINST ROCKET!I have ENOUGH enemies in the REAL world.Mainly EX-WIVES.

My humpty is DUMPTIED. As for ex-wives; that's PARTLY why I'm now living UPSIDE DOWN!

El Jarvo wrote:

Think we need to define 'racist' then.

Is it simply a case of saying something crass like "All Muslims are this-or-that" - you know, just general offensive abuse about race or religion.

religion is a choice and as such I belive I have the right to debate or be offensive about that just as much as I would any other choices a person makes.

Damn frutainians!

I remember smoking with a top philosophy teacher - who had been dissident in his country for twenty years, when he told me about his country : "it's not racism, it's xenophobia". Then a long debate started : Where is the border between these two words ?

Jiphy wrote: "it's not racism, it's xenaphobia". Then a long debate started : Where is the border between these two words ?

Who'd a thought she was the cause of all racism