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We're infidels :evil3:

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The root cause? We're all infidels

Mark Steyn National Post

An appeaser, said Churchill, feeds the crocodile in the hope that it will eat him last. But sometimes the croc eats him first anyway. For months, the U.S., Britain and even Canada apparently had warned the Indonesian government about terrorists operating within its borders. So had Singapore and Malaysia. President Megawati's administration responded by calling Washington anti-Muslim. The American Ambassador was publicly denounced by her Vice-President. The Foreign Minister, Hassan Wirayuda, said in February that the outside world's fears of Islamic terrorism in Indonesia were overblown and that in Jakarta "we laugh at it." Ha-ha. From government contacts to police indifference, the administration's strategy was to deny the crocodile existed and then quietly slip him the à la carte menu.

Now, Indonesian stocks are down, the rupiah's in the toilet, the national carrier's flying empty, and the official tourism Web sites have switched to continuously updated info on dead tourists, safe in the knowledge that they're unlikely to be getting any new bookings from live ones. "We're finished," says the chairman of the Indonesian Chamber of Commerce. The members of the Maroubra Lions Rugby League Club, who visited Bali at this time every year, won't be back. On Saturday night after dinner, the blokes agreed to babysit while the wives went out dancing. They didn't return. On Monday, Craig Salvatori put his two young daughters back on the plane to Sydney and told reporters he had to stay to "look for mummy." He found her in the morgue a couple of hours later, so badly burned she was identifiable only by her jewelry. But not to worry, Mr. Wirayuda: If the western partygoers are fleeing, the high-rolling Islamofascists are here to stay. On Monday, for the first time, Mrs. Megawati's government conceded that al-Qaeda are operating inside the country.

When Osama's boys hit the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the "root cause" crowd, after some pro forma regret about the loss of life, could barely conceal their admiration for the exquisite symbolism of the targets, the glittering monuments to American militarism and capitalism. The New Statesman dismissed the victims as Wall Street types who made the mistake of voting for Bush rather than Ralph Nader.

If you had to pick anywhere on the planet where Bush voters are thin on the ground, Bali's hard to beat. Lots of Aussie beach bums, Scandinavian backpackers, German stoners, braying English public-school types taking a year off to find themselves, but not many registered Republicans. This mass murder was clearly going to be harder to excuse, but the root-causers gamely rose to the occasion. The Sydney Morning Herald's Margo Kingston fretted over "whether we've respected and nurtured the place we love to visit or colonized it with our wants ... Maybe part of it is the lack of services for locals. A completely inadequate hospital, for instance, so graphically exposed in the aftermath of the horror. Some people -- foreigners like us, elite big-city Indonesians -- make their fortunes. Have residents lost their place, their power to define it? Did the big money fail to give enough back to the people who belong there, whose home it is?", etc., etc. Well, if the insensitivity of Western tourism is the root cause, Margo can relax: It's not gonna be a problem any more. Whether or not, as Margo would say, poverty breeds terrorism, in Indonesia last weekend's terrorism will certainly breed poverty.

While we're singing the old favourites, here's Bruce Haigh with a timeless classic. Mr. Haigh was an Australian diplomat in Indonesia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and he's in no doubt as to why hundreds of his compatriots were blown up in Bali. As he told Australia's Nine Network, "The root cause of this issue has been America's backing of Israel on Palestine." You don't say. It may well be true that, for certain Muslims "frustrated" by Washington's support for Israeli "intransigence," blowing up Australians in Bali makes perfect sense. But, if even this most elastic of root causes can be stretched half way around the globe to a place conspicuously lacking either Jews or Americans, then clearly it can apply to anyone or anything: Why, the FLQ would still be in business if only they'd thought to murder Pierre Laporte because of frustration at Washington's indulgence of the Zionist oppression of the Palestinian people. As has been noted here on previous occasions, the more you insist the Islamist psychosis is a rational phenomenon to be accommodated the more you risk sounding just as nutty as the terrorists.

On which subject, Robert Fisk of The Independent in London thinks the Aussies were targeted for a more specific reason -- blowback for being too cosy with the Great Satan: "The French have already paid a price for their initial support for Mr. Bush. The killing of 11 French submarine technicians in Karachi has been followed by the suicide attack on the French oil tanker Limburg off the coast of Yemen. Now, it seems, it is the turn of Australia ..." And don't worry, there are plenty of others who'll be getting theirs any day now. Just in case al-Qaeda had missed one or two, Fisk helpfully provides a useful list of legitimate targets: "Belgium, which hosts NATO HQ; Canada, whose special forces have also been operating in Afghanistan; Ireland, which allows U.S. military aircraft to refuel at Shannon ..." Blessings be upon you, Mister Robert, we had entirely forgot to add "Kill the Irish" to our "To Do" list, praise be to Allah.

I wonder if it was a cautious editor who added "initial" to that French "support for Mr. Bush." The French were supportive for about 10 minutes after September 11th, but for most of the last year have been famously and publicly non-supportive: Throughout the spring, their Foreign Minister M. Vedrine was deploring American "simplisme" on a daily basis. The French veto is still Saddam's best shot at torpedoing any meaningful UN action on Iraq. If you were to pick only one Western nation not to blow up the oil tankers of, the French would be it.

But they got blown up anyway. And afterwards a spokesman for the Islamic Army of Aden said: "We would have preferred to hit a U.S. frigate but no problem because they are all infidels."

No problem. They are all infidels.

When people make certain statements and their acts conform to those statements I tend to take them at their word. The first choice of Islamists is to kill Americans and Jews, or best of all an American Jew -- like Daniel Pearl, the late Wall Street Journal reporter. Failing that, they're happy to kill Australians, Britons, Canadians, Swedes, Germans, as they did in Bali. We are all infidels.

Messrs. Haigh and Fisk persist in believing that they kill infidels in pursuit of a negotiable goal, when the evidence suggests that killing infidels is the goal. As a way of making a point about Zionist occupation of the West Bank, blowing up Bali is a little convoluted, to say the least. If it's intended to warn America's allies off supporting Bush, it seems perverse and self-defeating to kill and maim large numbers of citizens from countries who haven't supported him. So, instead of trying to fit square pegs into Islamic crescents, why not take the event at face value? An infidel-friendly enclave in the world's largest Muslim country has been transformed into a mound of dead Australians and Scandinavians and the non-Islamic Indonesians of Bali: No problem, they're all infidels.

In many ways, the sanest Muslims in the world today are those of South Asia. In the Middle East, they're mired in their own mostly self-inflicted psychosis. In Europe, they've stood traditional immigration patterns on their head: Instead of becoming more European, they're becoming more Islamist. So the challenge now is for the Wahhabists to co-opt the Asian Muslims as they have the Arab and European. If Islamofascists were to gain control of Indonesia, it wouldn't be a parochial self-absorbed dictatorship like Suharto's but a launch pad for an Islamic superstate in the region.

Perhaps it would also improve health care in Bali, ending the "lack of services for locals" that Margo Kingston worries over. But I doubt it. Exposing the parlous state of Balinese morgue facilities by dramatically increasing their clientele isn't necessarily a sign of concern for public services. I began with a Churchill quote so let me end with one: "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened." That's what happened after September 11th: The brief glimpse of the reality of the Islamist scheme was too much, and so Margo and Co. dusted themselves off and retreated back to all the illusions. Now she's stumbled again. Oh, well. We'll see 'em all again on the next trip -- which is more than the Indonesian Tourist Board can say.

© Copyright 2002 National Post

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I don't have time to read this long post...can someone give a summary?

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In summary... Never rub another man's rhubarb.

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Ah...thanks.

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Well i read it all and it is SCARY! STATE OT THE NATION......S............... Not good!

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The recipe for all these attacks / bombings are exactly the same: religious fanaticism at the lead, combined with desperate, poor, vulnerable followers easily indoctrinated since childhood with the promise of a better afterlife, offering an escape from their dreary, ordinary lives. I reckon it will be almost impossible to stop - there is no single country or army to attack. We are facing small groups of religious zealots (funded by millionaire megolomaniacs) who are willing to blow themselves up in any place at any time. Enjoy your NO records while you can. Shit, that was uplifting. Must be a Tuesday at work and the city lies grey outside the office window. Think I'll have a beer at lunch. Cheers.

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Lets not forget that religous fanaticism is not exclusive to Islam. Look at the maniacs whose interpretation of Catholic doctrine allows them to justify attacking women entering abortion clinics in the US and murdering those who work there.

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Christians have been as guilty as all others over the years. Football has largely replaced religion though, thankfully. Sadly the two (or quasi-pretence connections) are still linked in some local rivalries though.

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Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes Christians have been as guilty as all others over the years. Football has largely replaced religion though, thankfully. Sadly the two (or quasi-pretence connections) are still linked in some local rivalries though.

Too true. Having been in a 5 and a half year relationship with a Northern Irish Protestant lass who was touched very directly by the troubles it never fails to piss me right off when you hear fuckwits from both sides of the NI / West of Scotland Christian divide singing their songs and waving their flags at football matches.

We're right to be deeply wary of these Islamic extremists but in my relatively short life experience the only murderous act which has affected me directly was carried out by a fellow Catholic on my girlfriend's dad. Let's look at the enemy on our doorstep first eh?

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Originally posted by Grahame Ferguson Lets not forget that religous fanaticism is not exclusive to Islam. Look at the maniacs whose interpretation of Catholic doctrine allows them to justify attacking women entering abortion clinics in the US and murdering those who work there.

Grahame,

I agree with you (surprise :D ) that murdering those who work at abortion clinics is obviously WRONG and the height of hypocrisy for the Pro-Life movement.

However, I do feel that peaceful protest outside of abortion clinics is proper and protected as such in the United States by the First Amendment.

Michael

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Amendment this, amendment that. Anyone would think you believe it all !

To quote Bob Mould (an American).....

"Government authorise education Don't mean a thing They'll teach you what they want you to think Don't mean a thing Saturation of stars and stripes Don't mean a thing The only freedom worth fighting for is for what you think"

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Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes Amendment this, amendment that. Anyone would think you believe it all !To quote Bob Mould (an American)....."Government authorise educationDon't mean a thingThey'll teach you what they want you to thinkDon't mean a thingSaturation of stars and stripesDon't mean a thingThe only freedom worth fighting for is for what you think"

Bob Mould:

I would know his fine work from.......????????

I should spend a plugged nickle to hear his thoughts because.....????????????

BCE,

Why would you belittle the Bill of Rights? They actually work (sometimes to the great dismay of others).

Michael

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Originally posted by Michael McDermott If you had to pick anywhere on the planet where Bush voters are thin on the ground

America is the laddie:D

Can't believe no-one picked up on this one:lol:

Infidels??? Sounds like a bad Dylan album if you ask me;)

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Originally posted by Michael McDermott > Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes> Amendment this, amendment that. Anyone would think you believe it all !> > To quote Bob Mould (an American).....> > "Government authorise education> Don't mean a thing> They'll teach you what they want you to think> Don't mean a thing> Saturation of stars and stripes> Don't mean a thing> The only freedom worth fighting for is for what you think"

Why would you belittle the Bill of Rights? They actually work (sometimes to the great dismay of others).

Michael

I fer one would never belittle Bill's rites!! Free cigars, intern's that are gagging fer it, and free travel around the world.....Bill's got it right if you ask me:beer:

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Bob Mould = Husker Du = Inventors of alternative rock...

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Weird that this thread turned to Bob Mould, as just yesterday I bought my ticket to see his gig in December. Husker Du and Sugar have made some of the finest alt rock tunes and influenced a host of bands, yet Bob Mould remains fairly unknown outside the alt scene.

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bob mould is one of the greatest and most influential singers of the last 20 years, no doubt. top man! husker du's rendition of the mary tyler moore theme song was one of my 'back to mine' songs on that particular thread. best cover ever. i've got to pull out my sugar CDs again soon...it's been a while.:D

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gift is my fave..... first track on "file under easy listening"

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Bottom line is this, INTOLERANCE is destroying the world! More people have died over the centuries because of religious bigotry than for any other reason. That will always be the case. In these modern times religious bigotry is fuelled by the huge economic imbalance that exists in the world, caused in my opinion by the greedy bastards who drive the western capitalist economy. The western civilisations have been plundering the east for centuries, the so called British Empire playing a major role in this during the 19th and 20th centuries especially.

Of course individuals with blinkered views and a stupidly blind faith in their flag and elected representitives only fuel the already rampant flames. The only thing I am intolerant to is INTOLERANCE. Intolerant people make me sick and fill me with rage. Michael McDermott is one such person I am sorry to say. Him and I could talk forever and never the twain shall meet. Intolerant and judgemental are just two words that sum him up for me. If you read this Michael, please don't make any assumptions for me or move to any conclusions for me. The last time you done that you were so wide of the mark it made me laugh for days. Now please keep your blinkered politics off this forum!

:smoking:

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Originally posted by :smoking: Bottom line is this, INTOLERANCE is destroying the world! More people have died over the centuries because of religious bigotry than for any other reason. That will always be the case. In these modern times religious bigotry is fuelled by the huge economic imbalance that exists in the world, caused in my opinion by the greedy bastards who drive the western capitalist economy. The western civilisations have been plundering the east for centuries, the so called British Empire playing a major role in this during the 19th and 20th centuries especially. Of course individuals with blinkered views and a stupidly blind faith in their flag and elected representitives only fuel the already rampant flames. The only thing I am intolerant to is INTOLERANCE. Intolerant people make me sick and fill me with rage. Michael McDermott is one such person I am sorry to say. Him and I could talk forever and never the twain shall meet. Intolerant and judgemental are just two words that sum him up for me. If you read this Michael, please don't make any assumptions for me or move to any conclusions for me. The last time you done that you were so wide of the mark it made me laugh for days. Now please keep your blinkered politics off this forum!:smoking:

Dearest "smoking",

It's not every day that someone uses their own arguments against themselves. However, you have succeeded here beyond all expectations.

Your overt hostility, dare I say hate, of someone (me) who happens to respect (even *gasp* LOVE) his own country, warts and all, is symptomatic of the hypocrisy inherent in the dialectic to which you subscribe.

It's interesting to note that the original tactic employed by various folks on this forum in an attempt to discredit me instead of my views was my "sad devotion to the flag". Now, it seems, that the attacks have extended to my "faith" in elected officials. I guess one front wasn't getting the job done for you, so you opened another. I'm not sure where I may have stated my belief in the infallibility of the elected officials of the United States, but you seem to have made that assumption. I support President Bush. I agree with most of his positions. I took the time and care to cast my vote for him. It would logically follow that I would have "faith" in him.

What, exactly, is your problem with that? :scratch:

Lovingly yours :blush: ,

Michael

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Originally posted by Michael McDermott > Originally posted by :smoking:> Bottom line is this, INTOLERANCE is destroying the world! More people have died over the centuries because of religious bigotry than for any other reason. That will always be the case. In these modern times religious bigotry is fuelled by the huge economic imbalance that exists in the world, caused in my opinion by the greedy bastards who drive the western capitalist economy. The western civilisations have been plundering the east for centuries, the so called British Empire playing a major role in this during the 19th and 20th centuries especially. > > Of course individuals with blinkered views and a stupidly blind faith in their flag and elected representitives only fuel the already rampant flames. The only thing I am intolerant to is INTOLERANCE. Intolerant people make me sick and fill me with rage. Michael McDermott is one such person I am sorry to say. Him and I could talk forever and never the twain shall meet. Intolerant and judgemental are just two words that sum him up for me. If you read this Michael, please don't make any assumptions for me or move to any conclusions for me. The last time you done that you were so wide of the mark it made me laugh for days. Now please keep your blinkered politics off this forum!> > :smoking:

Dearest "smoking",

It's not every day that someone uses their own arguments against themselves. However, you have succeeded here beyond all expectations.

Your overt hostility, dare I say hate, of someone (me) who happens to respect (even *gasp* LOVE) his own country, warts and all, is symptomatic of the hypocrisy inherent in the dialectic to which you subscribe.

It's interesting to note that the original tactic employed by various folks on this forum in an attempt to discredit me instead of my views was my "sad devotion to the flag". Now, it seems, that the attacks have extended to my "faith" in elected officials. I guess one front wasn't getting the job done for you, so you opened another. I'm not sure where I may have stated my belief in the infallibility of the elected officials of the United States, but you seem to have made that assumption. I support President Bush. I agree with most of his positions. I took the time and care to cast my vote for him. It would logically follow that I would have "faith" in him.

What, exactly, is your problem with that? :scratch:

Lovingly yours :blush: ,

Michael

..... and your condescending, sarcastic tone is another annoying habit of yours. Please keep terms like 'dearest' and 'lovingly yours' to yourself. You'd come across much better without them!

:smoking:

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Originally posted by :smoking: Bottom line is this, INTOLERANCE is destroying the world! :smoking:

Weird Husker Du fact #2......Grant Hart's first solo album was entitled Intolerance.

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Originally posted by tsotsi Weird that this thread turned to Bob Mould, as just yesterday I bought my ticket to see his gig in December. Husker Du and Sugar have made some of the finest alt rock tunes and influenced a host of bands, yet Bob Mould remains fairly unknown outside the alt scene.

Bob's current live set is something else !! He's doing a whole host of old stuff (HD/Sugar/solo) just him and a 12 string heavily amped, then does a load of Modulate stuff with DAT backing, finishing with full-on electric blast through everyone's favourites. The best 2 hours you will spend all year. Simply awesome.

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Originally posted by :smoking: > Originally posted by Michael McDermott> > > > Originally posted by :smoking:> > Bottom line is this, INTOLERANCE is destroying the world! More people have died over the centuries because of religious bigotry than for any other reason. That will always be the case. In these modern times religious bigotry is fuelled by the huge economic imbalance that exists in the world, caused in my opinion by the greedy bastards who drive the western capitalist economy. The western civilisations have been plundering the east for centuries, the so called British Empire playing a major role in this during the 19th and 20th centuries especially. > > > > Of course individuals with blinkered views and a stupidly blind faith in their flag and elected representitives only fuel the already rampant flames. The only thing I am intolerant to is INTOLERANCE. Intolerant people make me sick and fill me with rage. Michael McDermott is one such person I am sorry to say. Him and I could talk forever and never the twain shall meet. Intolerant and judgemental are just two words that sum him up for me. If you read this Michael, please don't make any assumptions for me or move to any conclusions for me. The last time you done that you were so wide of the mark it made me laugh for days. Now please keep your blinkered politics off this forum!> > > > :smoking:>

Dearest "smoking",

It's not every day that someone uses their own arguments against themselves. However, you have succeeded here beyond all expectations.

Your overt hostility, dare I say hate, of someone (me) who happens to respect (even *gasp* LOVE) his own country, warts and all, is symptomatic of the hypocrisy inherent in the dialectic to which you subscribe.

It's interesting to note that the original tactic employed by various folks on this forum in an attempt to discredit me instead of my views was my "sad devotion to the flag". Now, it seems, that the attacks have extended to my "faith" in elected officials. I guess one front wasn't getting the job done for you, so you opened another. I'm not sure where I may have stated my belief in the infallibility of the elected officials of the United States, but you seem to have made that assumption. I support President Bush. I agree with most of his positions. I took the time and care to cast my vote for him. It would logically follow that I would have "faith" in him.

What, exactly, is your problem with that? :scratch:

Lovingly yours :blush: ,

Michael

..... and your condescending, sarcastic tone is another annoying habit of yours. Please keep terms like 'dearest' and 'lovingly yours' to yourself. You'd come across much better without them!

:smoking:

That what was joke, right?

:scratch: You mean to tell me that after the rip job you did on me you didn't expect a little sarcasm or condescension?!?! :scratch:

Bro, you must be REALLY used to getting the last word.

:nonono: Sorry, I won't be so accommodating. :nonono:

:blush: All my love, :blush:

Michael

P.S.

You have as yet to deal with an issue. You've just personally attacked me.

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Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes > Originally posted by tsotsi> Weird that this thread turned to Bob Mould, as just yesterday I bought my ticket to see his gig in December. Husker Du and Sugar have made some of the finest alt rock tunes and influenced a host of bands, yet Bob Mould remains fairly unknown outside the alt scene.

Bob's current live set is something else !! He's doing a whole host of old stuff (HD/Sugar/solo) just him and a 12 string heavily amped, then does a load of Modulate stuff with DAT backing, finishing with full-on electric blast through everyone's favourites. The best 2 hours you will spend all year. Simply awesome.

That does sound interesting...but as far as I can tell no European dates have been announced yet, or have they? Hmmm, time to put Copper Blue on again...

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Originally posted by Coen van der Voort > Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes> > > > Originally posted by tsotsi> > Weird that this thread turned to Bob Mould, as just yesterday I bought my ticket to see his gig in December. Husker Du and Sugar have made some of the finest alt rock tunes and influenced a host of bands, yet Bob Mould remains fairly unknown outside the alt scene.>

Bob's current live set is something else !! He's doing a whole host of old stuff (HD/Sugar/solo) just him and a 12 string heavily amped, then does a load of Modulate stuff with DAT backing, finishing with full-on electric blast through everyone's favourites. The best 2 hours you will spend all year. Simply awesome.

That does sound interesting...but as far as I can tell no European dates have been announced yet, or have they? Hmmm, time to put Copper Blue on again...

There are some European dates planned for the New Year - no schedule as yet.

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