'you all forgot rudolf hess' and other stupid rock remarks

Thinking about why I concieved an early irrational prejudice against so many pre-punk artists got me thinking about how much you are influenced by stuff outside of the music itself. For instance the first thing I ever knew of Eric Clapton was his disgusting racist 'Enoch was right' outburst on stage. After that I've never bothered to listen to his music (and when I finally did I found it boring, but its hard to say how much that's down to already disliking the guy).

(Does anyone know if he ever apologised for that by the way? What was his problem? A guy who made a career of playing black music and working with great black musicians making a racist speech?? Did a black guy nick his parking space that day or what?)

Anyway, with our lads I was already completely in love with the music before I encountered any of their early idiotic flirtation with totalitarian imagery so it was too late to put me off. Not that I believe they've ever been 'nazis' but they were idiots for a while, I think its fair to say.

Anyway, to get round to the question, probably the worst evidence against them (rather worse than Barny's alleged 'nazi haircut'?!!) must be the above remark at the Electric Circus gig. Was it Ian or Barny who said it and what the heck was he on about?

I've always believed it to have been Ian who said it - Barney was never miked up in those days. It does sound a bit like Barney though !

As for why......no idea, which is probably about as much idea as whoever said it had.

Originally posted by Reg Bumswizle I've always believed it to have been Ian who said it - Barney was never miked up in those days. It does sound a bit like Barney though !As for why......no idea, which is probably about as much idea as whoever said it had.

Tim

I found that voice similar to first Transmission's yell on HATYM video.Was it Barney,Ian or anyone from the audience?

That's definitely Barney with the Rudolf Hess comment. He was miked up back in those days - check out the Warsaw group pick from Rafters in June '77. As to the why, I think Hess had been ill around that time and there were some opinions voiced to suggest that he should be released on humanitarian grounds. There was a lot of flirting with Nazi imagery (and Communist imagery too) back in the punk days though this was done for shock value rather than in support of the ideology. And Barney's comment is nowhere near as bad as David Bowie's Nazi salute in Victoria Station and his comment about how Britain could benefit from a dictator (or something like that)...

Originally posted by 404 error Anyway, with our lads I was already completely in love with the music before I encountered any of their early idiotic flirtation with totalitarian imagery so it was too late to put me off. Not that I believe they've ever been 'nazis' but they were idiots for a while, I think its fair to say.

Totally agree with that. Another bad joke is the image of an Hitler-Youth boy on the cover of the "An Ideal for Living"-EP. An image BTW that is used by neo-Nazis nowadays. Sign of bad taste IMHO.

There's enough evidence around to suggest that they were prats at times in those days, whether they thought it was clever or not I don't know. We do know that Ian had an interest in military history and right-wing politics, but the two aren't necessarily sufficient to posthumously convict him as a Nazi sympathiser, synthesizer or cider drinker.

I think we can say though that they soon realised the error of their ways. Hands up who hasn't made silly mistakes in their lives at some stage ?

The Nazi imagery was apparently for shock value (albeit in terribly bad taste) still... Ian's obsession with WWII Nazi Germany is quite unsettling, we'll never truly know what went on in his mind... Interestingly Joy Division appeared at a Rock Against Racism benefit at Kelly's on Oct 12 1978 Manchester

Originally posted by Distant Sun The Nazi imagery was apparently for shock value (albeit in terribly bad taste) still... Ian's obsession with WWII Nazi Germany is quite unsettling, we'll never truly know what went on in his mind...Interestingly Joy Division appeared at a Rock Against Racism benefit at Kelly's on Oct 12 1978 Manchester

The Nazi imagery was used back then precisely because it was in bad taste - and it was used far more prominently by some other punk bands than by Warsaw/Joy Division. As for Ian having an obsession with WWII Germany he was once quoted as saying he was interested in the imagery but not the ideology and it was an interest that Barney also shared. There's certainly nothing in his lyrics to suggest Nazi sympathies and you can find far worse examples of 'flirting with Fascism' in the lyrics of other punk bands (e.g. Banshees or Adam & the Ants).

Still waiting for NO to cover "Belsen Was A Gas"...

Originally posted by Atrocity Exhibit Still waiting for NO to cover "Belsen Was A Gas"...

Which isn't a pro-Nazi song...

I have a copy !

bleep bleep , pass me more mogodon what a boring topic, who cares ?

Originally posted by Mike Garrity bleep bleep , pass me more mogodon what a boring topic, who cares ?

If you're bored with it then don't read it...personally I find this a fuck of a lot more interesting than shitty polls as to who is the best dancer/singer etc. ad fucking nauseum...

Now now, it's all peace and love these days you know.

That's what we fought them there Nazis for...

Originally posted by Mike Garrity bleep bleep , pass me more mogodon what a boring topic, who cares ?

Wot no tape list ?

Originally posted by Atrocity Exhibit Still waiting for NO to cover "Belsen Was A Gas"...

Well that's nothing. Siemens (German company) had to back down from trying to register the trademark 'Zyklon'. They were going to use the name for... wait for it..... gas ovens.

I kid you not http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2233890.stm

Originally posted by Mr Ben > Originally posted by Atrocity Exhibit> Still waiting for NO to cover "Belsen Was A Gas"...

Well that's nothing. Siemens (German company) had to back down from trying to register the trademark 'Zyklon'. They were going to use the name for... wait for it..... gas ovens.

I kid you not http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2233890.stm

I understood that TDK who we all buy for cassettes etc actually were responsible for the making and distribution of Zyklon B.... any takers?

:bag:

nope it was IG Farben. I found this article whilst searching for the above

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3257403.stm

I agree with Philip Collins (though his records are shite) what is more boring than lists and polls? You can't avoid the 'Nazi' issue if you are into this band (though it's all bollocks) If you were young in the UK (or Germany, France etc.)in the seventies your parents or grandparents probably had strong opinions on WW2 and the 'enemy'. I knew a lot of schoolmates who read about all this sort of stuff (guns, uniforms, badges, hatred etc - Hello there gansta rappers!)- none of them Nazis (as far as I know).

That said Bowie is a c### and Eric Clapton should have been sent back to where he came from (but should have had his fingers broken first)

Originally posted by Doggy > Originally posted by Mr Ben> > > > Originally posted by Atrocity Exhibit> > Still waiting for NO to cover "Belsen Was A Gas"...>

Well that's nothing. Siemens (German company) had to back down from trying to register the trademark 'Zyklon'. They were going to use the name for... wait for it..... gas ovens.

I kid you not http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2233890.stm

I understood that TDK who we all buy for cassettes etc actually were responsible for the making and distribution of Zyklon B.... any takers?

:bag:

Wasn't there also a US company that sued the US government after the war for the cost of damage done to its German factories by allied bombing? (I suspect Milo Minderbinder wasn't an entirely fictional creation)

Originally posted by Philip Collins > Originally posted by Distant Sun> The Nazi imagery was apparently for shock value (albeit in terribly bad taste) still... Ian's obsession with WWII Nazi Germany is quite unsettling, we'll never truly know what went on in his mind...> Interestingly Joy Division appeared at a Rock Against Racism benefit at Kelly's on Oct 12 1978 Manchester

The Nazi imagery was used back then precisely because it was in bad taste - and it was used far more prominently by some other punk bands than by Warsaw/Joy Division. As for Ian having an obsession with WWII Germany he was once quoted as saying he was interested in the imagery but not the ideology and it was an interest that Barney also shared. There's certainly nothing in his lyrics to suggest Nazi sympathies and you can find far worse examples of 'flirting with Fascism' in the lyrics of other punk bands (e.g. Banshees or Adam & the Ants).

Yea, all that 'shocking' wearing of swastikas etc was deeply, deeply dumb. Wasn't it Siouxsie who infamously declared 'too many jews for my liking', can't recall if it was on stage or in a lyric.

An asian friend once mentioned he never got into that music because he found all that stuff a bit threatening.

Originally posted by 404 error > Originally posted by Philip Collins> > > > Originally posted by Distant Sun> > The Nazi imagery was apparently for shock value (albeit in terribly bad taste) still... Ian's obsession with WWII Nazi Germany is quite unsettling, we'll never truly know what went on in his mind...> > Interestingly Joy Division appeared at a Rock Against Racism benefit at Kelly's on Oct 12 1978 Manchester >

The Nazi imagery was used back then precisely because it was in bad taste - and it was used far more prominently by some other punk bands than by Warsaw/Joy Division. As for Ian having an obsession with WWII Germany he was once quoted as saying he was interested in the imagery but not the ideology and it was an interest that Barney also shared. There's certainly nothing in his lyrics to suggest Nazi sympathies and you can find far worse examples of 'flirting with Fascism' in the lyrics of other punk bands (e.g. Banshees or Adam & the Ants).

Yea, all that 'shocking' wearing of swastikas etc was deeply, deeply dumb. Wasn't it Siouxsie who infamously declared 'too many jews for my liking', can't recall if it was on stage or in a lyric.

An asian friend once mentioned he never got into that music because he found all that stuff a bit threatening. Yep, lotsa mistakes made back then. I think those were lyrics in the song "Mittageisen" or "Love in a Void," though I'm not sure which it was at present. Your asian friend would've LOVED Siouxsie's first single "Hong Kong Garden."

Originally posted by 404 error Yea, all that 'shocking' wearing of swastikas etc was deeply, deeply dumb. Wasn't it Siouxsie who infamously declared 'too many jews for my liking', can't recall if it was on stage or in a lyric.An asian friend once mentioned he never got into that music because he found all that stuff a bit threatening.

Being of Aisan descent myself (and growing up on the receiving end of racism) I actually stopped listening to JD for a while when I first found about about the associated nazi imagery, but then read alot about how it was all part of the shock value of the punk movement. Even if they were serious about it (which I don't they were) it's ironic how their music has still reached people of all creeds and colour. Anyway what I really enjoy about JD is the bass & guitarwork and I haven't really heard anything in the lyrics that suggested racist beliefs or the like...

Originally posted by Distant Sun > Originally posted by 404 error> > Yea, all that 'shocking' wearing of swastikas etc was deeply, deeply dumb. Wasn't it Siouxsie who infamously declared 'too many jews for my liking', can't recall if it was on stage or in a lyric.> > An asian friend once mentioned he never got into that music because he found all that stuff a bit threatening.

Being of Aisan descent myself (and growing up on the receiving end of racism) I actually stopped listening to JD for a while when I first found about about the associated nazi imagery, but then read alot about how it was all part of the shock value of the punk movement. Even if they were serious about it (which I don't they were) it's ironic how their music has still reached people of all creeds and colour. Anyway what I really enjoy about JD is the bass & guitarwork and I haven't really heard anything in the lyrics that suggested racist beliefs or the like... No, there really isn't anything in their lyrics to suggest such things. The closest corrolation there is is probably 'They Walked in Line,' but even those don't imply racism or fascism. Funny how the "rock media" never seemed to really listen to the lyrics of either JD or NO but instead deemed them fascist.

No, there really isn't anything in their lyrics to suggest such things. The closest corrolation there is is probably 'They Walked in Line,' but even those don't imply racism or fascism. Funny how the "rock media" never seemed to really listen to the lyrics of either JD or NO but instead deemed them fascist.

Absolutely, there is no case to answer. If songwriters / writers can't comment on - or use, the past for their inspiration then our culture would be poorer. As for the 'rock media' (I'd widen that out a bit to include all media) never trust those fools - trust your own ears and make your own judgements.

Originally posted by 404 error Yea, all that 'shocking' wearing of swastikas etc was deeply, deeply dumb. Wasn't it Siouxsie who infamously declared 'too many jews for my liking', can't recall if it was on stage or in a lyric.An asian friend once mentioned he never got into that music because he found all that stuff a bit threatening.

The 'Too many Jews' line was from an early version of 'Love in a Void' tho' to be fair to Siouxsie she did change the lyric pretty quickly when she realised how offensive it was. They also attempted to redress the balance with the 'Mittageisen' single by using a collage by a renowned anti-Nazi German artist (whose name temporarily escapes me) for the sleeve. Adam Ant wrote some very dodgy lyrics in the original version of 'Deutscher Girls' and the song 'Dirk Wears White Sox' and was forced to spend a few years living down Nazi accusations (despite the fact he's apparently got some kind of Romany background, so he claims). The music press used to leap on these little snippets of information and label bands as Nazi sympathisers quite regularly and they actually had quite a big influence back then. It's worth noting that JD, the Banshees and the Ants all played Rock Against Racism gigs back then - perhaps a case of actions speaking louder than words?

ACR were definitely denounced in this way tho' I'm not sure it was John Peel. Factory in general were labelled as Nazi in an article in Private Eye - of course none of ACR's denouncers appeared to notice the presence of Donald Johnson in the band!

and ACR took their name from a Brian Eno song, can't remember what it was called (I think it was on the 'Taking Tiger Mountain by Strategy'lp) and the line goes 'looking for a certain ratio'. So ask Eno about Naziism.