Seems to me that a lot of bootleggers see themselves as heroic, the little guy takin on the corporate monster, striking some kind of percieved blow to the man .
Others dont share that view.
For my part I've recieved illegal/unofficial recordings, though I've never paid for them, matter of fact I didn't even ask for them.However I have bought and will buy again, pirate dvd's of an excellent quality, the fella I buy them off is just makin an ( illegal ) buck, he has no pretension toward artistic merit and he doesn't see himself as challenging Hollywood, I asked for an out of print Jacques Tati film and he got it within a week
So are the bootleggers heroes, twats or part of a service industry ? Personaly I can deal with an honest con ( oxymoron alert ), but some of theses bootleggers have bigger ego's than the fookin band
I would like to see one of these self appointed fighters for the right to steal an artists work, go head to head with Hooky, putting his/her case forward with the type of justification / reasoned argument that occasionaly pops up on these boards ?
But how would my dvd supplier fare in a similar situation ?
I think he'd offer Hooky a slice of the pie and a chance to fuck the taxman over, at the very least
Sorry to post a serious topic, Mrs garymac says I should try some serious stuff be less flippant so to speak,
Order Bootlegs ?
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I have to admit to having bought a couple of bootlegs. I think some boots are ok, but only where they don't contain material officially available.
To clarify. Bootleggers have been around for years, buying , selling ,whatever people want to do is fine by me , it certainly doesn't seem to be in my personal interest to stop them
However it's when they wrap it up with some smug self justification,or defend themselves using the argot of some sort of 60's hippy freedom fighter , that it becomes ( to me anyway )just plain bollox, one of the best replies I've seen on any thread was the guy/girl who posited that paintin and decorating may be a way to make money as a musician,( I'll put the topic down when I remember it ) There seems to be a few people on here who have decided that NO have made a shed load of money, ergo it's only fair to bootleg some stuff and fuck the royalties. I'd have more respect if they said either, 'I've got this gig its rare as fuck I'm gonna get some beer money 'or ' I've got this gig it's rare as fuck ,I'll share it and become popular nool ' But to appoint themselves as arbiters of how much an artist can earn is a bit fuckin cheeky, and to pretend it's them versus big business is bloody deluded
The reply I refer to above was by Edspess on the dissapointed cd thread.
good reply sir, took me a load of lines to say what you achieved in one,so in the absence of a tipyerhat smiley have a ..
Hey I don't think bootleggers are freedom fighters. They're just in it for the money. If they just wanted to spread the music they'd give their stuff away, or charge only enough to cover costs. We all know how little a blank cd costs don't we.
We may need to draw a distinction between the copying of recorded material and live material here. "Bootlegging" is a bit of a catch-all term.
If a commercially-available released record is copied (however difficult to find it is), and the copies sold/distributed electronically via FTP server or Kazaa/whatever, then this is piracy, and the pirate can expect a dire fate.
Live material is another matter. There's two lines here as well though, those who give/trade stuff and those who sell. As other people have said above, live show collectors like to get a collection of recordings from gigs they have been to, others like to get every available recording from a certain era, that's just human nature, and certainly isn't confined to New Order. Just about every half decent band has a fan or two with vast live recording collections. These recordings have always seemed fair enough to me provided they are given away or traded for other live stuff. Selling them on E-bay is a completely different matter though, and should be discouraged.
Buyin a pirate copy of a cd rather than buying one from a shop is wrong,not to mention poor quality.
Buying a cd of stuff not available in the shops is fine,if the record companies wont make it available then fuck them,they dont have a leg to stand on. If its in HMV or wherever i`ll buy the real thing,if not im not doing without cos its off the geezer in the pub.
Live recording are really fuck all to do with record labels,ok they might own the copyright on the songs but they rarely have any intention of releasing the gig anyway. other than Pearl Jam i cant name one band who have solved this problem out to the benefit of all concerned.
Are pirates a bad thing? Yes and No. The record companies could put bootleggers out of buisness overnight by giving buyers exactly what they want.
Things will never change,cos the music industry is run by people who dont give a fuck about music only the dollar.
Sad. but true.
Did any other band follow the Grateful Deads lead and reserve an area at gigs for people to tape from ?
Originally posted by Garymac Did any other band follow the Grateful Deads lead and reserve an area at gigs for people to tape from ?
Given the technology available, I wonder if it would be possible for bands to transfer the sound board recording onto CD and start selling them from the back of the hall to the punters as they were leaving the venue?!
Ok, that was slightly tongue in cheek, clearly there woudn't be time to do that, but if they really wanted to make money out of this, putting a downloadable version of the gig on-line for a couple of quid would have takers and low cost of sales. Before anyone gets excited, everything we know about NO says there is no way they'd entertain this and praps it's a bad idea as no band I've heard of has done this.
Have to live with the audience recordings after all.
Bloody hell, I've just read about something like this a couple of days ago. One of my favourite Italian bands did a gig and sold cheap CDRs of the concert to people at the exit, of course it can be done and it would be great, it would save time to the fans and it would mean money for the band. BTW Hooky is alright with bootlegs (he has a large collection himself) so no problems, though of course people asking too much for bootlegs are twats. I mean, bootlegers are nearly heroes indeed, they must be respected. I remember when I was at the Apollo 98 and thought "shit, I could have taped this!" and was totally scared no one did. We must thank those who did, I just wanted to enjoy the gig and not mind to a recorder, but someone did what I didn't and if you can at least hear New Order's best gig ever (though there's no video around yet, but you can still sign my petition and cross your fingers... 101 signatures so far, the last one being Claude Flowers... will he be that Flowers?) it's thanks to them. Anyway if one of them puts a bootleg on E Bay and makes a lot of money it's unfair because he has no right to get much money for a bootleg (say, more than 10/15 dollars?), though he deserves respect and even a small sum of money for expenses and gratitude.
Originally posted by Johnny Giles Given the technology available, I wonder if it would be possible for bands to transfer the sound board recording onto CD and start selling them from the back of the hall to the punters as they were leaving the venue?! Ok, that was slightly tongue in cheek, clearly there woudn't be time to do that, but if they really wanted to make money out of this, putting a downloadable version of the gig on-line for a couple of quid would have takers and low cost of sales. Before anyone gets excited, everything we know about NO says there is no way they'd entertain this and praps it's a bad idea as no band I've heard of has done this.Have to live with the audience recordings after all.
It's not such an off-the-wall idea as you may think. I seem to recall REM looking at this before their last tour and not being able to quite make it work, but I would imagine it's coming sooner or later.
Originally posted by Garymac Did any other band follow the Grateful Deads lead and reserve an area at gigs for people to tape from ?
Metallica. They fought Napster over copyrighted recordings but have no problem with live bootlegs. I think Pearl Jam also have taping sections at their gigs.
p.s. Metallica's "Hero of the Day" rips off the bass riff from "Way of Life".
Originally posted by Garymac Hang on , are you sayin I'm nuts or the Grateful Dead ?Or someone who wants to tape them ?
The fact they had an area for taping - nuts
Bob Mould used to reserve an area at the front for tapers, then it got to the stage where people were abusing the privilege and flogging the recordings for exorbitant sums, so he ditched the idea.
The Wedding Present used to do their own bootlegs - you could ask the band for a tape of a gig and they would send it you for only a couple of quid, I picked up a couple of them from Grapper. The Beloved used to do the same thing as well in the days when they were a cool indie band before E and wishy-washy shite.
bootlegers have always made bootlegs,i can remember picking a doors live in san fran up about 10 years since at a record fair for the missus,i think thats the only one i've actually bought so far.
as for the file sharing thing, (cds here in the uk & probably the rest of the world) have been well overpriced since they came out, the record companies have made billions from the sales,yes the artists/record companies own the recordings,but until they are copy protected then people will copy them,thats just tuff shit!
there will always be a way of copying/sharing files no matter how much legislation and threats of prosecution the record companies harp on about.
if they were really saying that downloading tracks free from the web is hurting the industry then why not make them available to download the tracks at a reasonable price ,£20 for a single album is way too much,if it was available to download from the net for a few quid then every one would use that route,makes sense!
it will be too late b4 they realise this though!
regards
Some good replies thanks, I didn't know about the Metallica thing re: live recordings seems to be a fair enough stance ( I must say at this point, I dont know enough about the Napster situation to be objective ) Nice to be reminded about David Gedge / Wedding Present, I used to do some stuff for the promoters Zane Branson and the late Roger Eagle ( RTR Promotions ) and Dave Gedges attitude to fans was superb, before one of their gigs at the Ritz M/cr , he took some autograph hunters to the Cornerhouse cafe for a brew and a chat, which kinda exceeded their expectations a tad. I do think technology will allow some of the suggestions to occur, though what the lawyers etc will do is another matter. And I do think that any of the fans who've just shelled out between £50 and £150 for the Madonna gigs, should get the chance to record an 'official bootleg' as a matter of course, never happen though will it
Originally posted by Garymac Nice to be reminded about David Gedge / Wedding Present, I used to do some stuff for the promoters Zane Branson and the late Roger Eagle ( RTR Promotions ) and Dave Gedges attitude to fans was superb,
I've seen him selling merchandise on the stall having just come off stage before now! And he's got once Electronic backing singer Astrid Williamson supporting the current Cinerama tour.
Anyway, I digress...
Digress away, I can hardly take a lofty attitude, this is the firstthread where I've managed to stay on track, I usualy fly of at a tangent.
Good Wedding Present anecdote was when I was working as dressing room security for a gig they did at Keele Uni in 1988. Chatting to Keith Gregory (top bloke) before the show I asked him if there was any chance of a recording of the gig (or any of the shows from the Seamonsters tour), he said he'd see what they could do, depending on sound/performance quality, as he explained that the "bootlegs" they did release were selected because they were good gigs, nobody wants to be heard screwing things up (insight into Barney's mind ?). After the show, my help was enlisted by David Gedge in chasing off some illegal poster sellers - the Gedge rationale was that they didn't mind someone asking for a live tape, but someone selling posters without their permission was unacceptable. An hour after the show, I was stood with Grapper alongside their van, listening to the gig tape on the van stereo !
Originally posted by Old Blue > Originally posted by Garymac> > > Nice to be reminded about David Gedge / Wedding Present, I used to do some stuff for the promoters Zane Branson and the late Roger Eagle ( RTR Promotions ) and Dave Gedges attitude to fans was superb,
I've seen him selling merchandise on the stall having just come off stage before now! And he's got once Electronic backing singer Astrid Williamson supporting the current Cinerama tour.
Anyway, I digress...
Indeed, David would always help Sally on the stall selling t-shirts at the end of the show. Saved him putting the gear away in the old days !!
So I take it there are alot of Wedding Present fans here! Another shit hot band (Not as good as Chameleons though!!) Anyway I got some mega-rare Wedding Present stuff from the early days (Sean Charman)includes first gig at Allerton Bywater as well as a shit load of sessions given away by Sean after he left!
Regarding the bootlegs, I must agree with Tim (again!) on this about the difference between live and offical releases. The bottom line for me as with many on this forum that have over 350 New Order gigs is that when something affects you so much, as music does, in your life then you just want "everything" by a certain band - well thats my excuse!!
Not sure about the band that someone mentioned about how they combatted this. I know that Throbbing Gristle (albeit after the events) did release every gig they played in a box set and in latter years Psychic TV did follow the same by releasing many live performances soon after they took place.
Anyway enough bollocks!!!...down to the important issue.....WHOS GOT THE BEACH CLUB GIG!!!!
Originally posted by steve52 Buyin a pirate copy of a cd rather than buying one from a shop is wrong,not to mention poor quality.Buying a cd of stuff not available in the shops is fine,if the record companies wont make it available then fuck them,they dont have a leg to stand on. If its in HMV or wherever i`ll buy the real thing,if not im not doing without cos its off the geezer in the pub.Live recording are really fuck all to do with record labels,ok they might own the copyright on the songs but they rarely have any intention of releasing the gig anyway. other than Pearl Jam i cant name one band who have solved this problem out to the benefit of all concerned.Are pirates a bad thing? Yes and No. The record companies could put bootleggers out of buisness overnight by giving buyers exactly what they want.Things will never change,cos the music industry is run by people who dont give a fuck about music only the dollar.Sad. but true.
THE FALL do it Mark E Smith grabs any old The Fall bootleg and releases them on a regualr basis
