How important was Gillian's role in New Order?

Okay, I'm having it out with a Simon Stuart in Usenet's "alt.music.new-order" over the importance of Gillian's role in New Order. I thought it was fairly well-known that she contributed relatively little to the composition of the music (the other three mainly did the heavy lifting), and a couple of people here have stated it as if it was fact, but I'm now wondering what led you to come to that conclusion.

Note that I'm not arguing that Gillian wasn't important to New Order (she was) but that the group has a right to call themselves "New Order" without her as a part of the group and can produce worthwhile art without her involvement.

--Sam

For "Technique", it seems unlikely that Barney composed two guitar parts for most of the acoustic based songs. Plus, Dream Attack's working title was "Gillian's Acoustic One", right?

Maybe she's just the Andy Fletcher of the group, and is more important as a moderator than a musician

sid vicious, cressa, ian curtis

only joking!

speaking of jokes, that april fools was a good one.

I think she had a reasonabally important role. bernard , technically is no pavoritti, but that doesnt mean he hasnt an important role in the group / writes a good lyric.

just cause she never became too nimble on the guitar doesnt mean she was worthless to the group. diddnt i hear it said that (for instance) herself and steve wrote the melody to world in motion? the credits to all songs are "neworder".

also, the fact she got on well with the rest of em,etc, wasnt a twat (like say, john fusicante) counts for a lot.

Having someone to play all the tasty synth parts (even if played wrongly most of the time) makes her very important in my book, even if she didn't really contribute musically. She also should've done more to boost the band's sex appeal. :p

Vital,if there was no Gillian there would just be the 3 of them on stage like a older Busted!

Hang on...

Originally posted by almanso Andy Fletcher, Lol Tolhurst, Gillian Gilbert, Bez.... it seems every band must have one of these guys to succeed!

i think BEZ was very Important to the Mondays, never underestimate the Vibes!!!!!

To have a reasonably talented artist who brings a stoic presence to a group seems to work for a lot of the long standing groups that still make new music. Lowe from pet shop boys, Fletcher (as was mentioned) from depeche mode, and Gillian in new order (although she isnt in the group as of now but still).

Keeps the egos in balance

She is wonderful in that she gives me something to look at on those live gigs instead of Bernard "OOH" Sumner, Peter "hairy" Hook, and Stephen "sweat-a-lot" Morris (lucky b'stard!)

Originally posted by almanso Andy Fletcher, Lol Tolhurst, Gillian Gilbert, Bez.... it seems every band must have one of these guys to succeed!

Oooooooh, wait there. Andrew Fletcher claps and excites the audience as no one else

Originally posted by Slippy She is wonderful in that she gives me something to look at on those live gigs instead of Bernard "OOH" Sumner, Peter "hairy" Hook, and Stephen "sweat-a-lot" Morris (lucky b'stard!)

You know if you were hitched with her, you'd be sweating a lot too.

She was very important, she is the best "one-finger" keyboard player off all time !!

Almanso is a great fan of her !!

I feel her contributions are often undervalued. She may not have known how to play when she started, but then neither did Warsaw when they started.

I have said it before I think the lack of beautiful synth melodies on Get Ready is directly attributable to her not being there. So, I think while she may not have been involved in most of the basic song compositions, she certainly polished them.

Her backing vocals should not be forgotten. A real shame she never sang a whole NO tune.

Originally posted by Jackson Withrow To have a reasonably talented artist who brings a stoic presence to a group seems to work for a lot of the long standing groups that still make new music. Lowe from pet shop boys, Fletcher (as was mentioned) from depeche mode, and Gillian in new order (although she isnt in the group as of now but still). Keeps the egos in balance

Don't compare Chris Lowe to Gillian and Fletch. Unlike the latter two, he actually knows how to program and use a synth, with more than one hand. Although, in songs like "I want a dog" and a few off of "Nightlife," he doesn't play any "piano-sounding" parts, like Rodger O'Donnell of the Cure has a few times, he provides the base (not the bass) for most of PSB's song structures.

It's interesting to see Andy Fletcher's name bandied about.

Having him perform would have just been like having Rob Gretton up on stage playing along (which did happen at least once, at their '83 DC gig), as Fletch was the manager/business one with little instrumental aptitude, right?

The Order would have been right a lads band had Gretton done that. But how essential was Gillian's appeal, given that many casual fans listening to their output on the radio or the dancefloor had no conception of the players in question. It's only those fans who were familiar with the group that could even begin to appreciate Gillan's unorthodox role with New Order...it certainly wasn't a primary role, since by her own admission Stephen mostly handled the compositions in The Other Two, so it stands to reason her input into New Order would have been equivalent...

I think Gillian's part in enw Order was very important. I mean, the electronics and key boards are a very big part of New Orders sound. To me, The electronics and Hookys bass are what made New Order awesome, along with Barneys voice and Hooks bass. For a long time, I actually thought Steve Morris played synths too, I thought the drumming on songs like True Faith was a machine.

She may not have composed the keyboard parts, but the certainly polished them. She was a very important part of New Orders sleek, euro electro sound.Especially live. I love seeing her playing keyboards on 3 16. She also operated the sequencers, in the old days. Its nice to know that most of those electronics were being played live.

I think New Order has suffered since she left. Get ready lacked a lot of the synth melodies and polish, which shows I think that she was part of that.

And I HATE Phil Cunningham live. On 5 11, the keyboards on Regret, Crystal, and Brutal are all very very prominent in aldding melody and structure to the song. If Gillian were in the band, she would be playing those parts live. Instead, those important synth parts are put on a backign track so Phil can play the EXACT SAME guitar parts as Bernard is playing. And he plys some god awful heavy metal solo on Blue Monday. Ugh..

The electronics are important, they are part of what set New Order apart from other bands.

Originally posted by This blue-eyed boy that wants to be > Originally posted by Jackson Withrow> To have a reasonably talented artist who brings a stoic presence to a group seems to work for a lot of the long standing groups that still make new music. Lowe from pet shop boys, Fletcher (as was mentioned) from depeche mode, and Gillian in new order (although she isnt in the group as of now but still). > > Keeps the egos in balance

I Don't compare Chris Lowe to Gillian and Fletch. Unlike the latter two, he actually knows how to program and use a synth, with more than one hand. Although, in songs like "I want a dog" and a few off of "Nightlife," he doesn't play any "piano-sounding" parts, like Rodger O'Donnell of the Cure has a few times, he provides the base (not the bass) for most of PSB's song structures.

I wasn't comparing them as artists, just the fact they are both fairly quiet in terms of their counterparts and they are often more physically in the background.

Originally posted by The Happy One It's interesting to see Andy Fletcher's name bandied about.Having him perform would have just been like having Rob Gretton up on stage playing along (which did happen at least once, at their '83 DC gig), as Fletch was the manager/business one with little instrumental aptitude, right?The Order would have been right a lads band had Gretton done that. But how essential was Gillian's appeal, given that many casual fans listening to their output on the radio or the dancefloor had no conception of the players in question. It's only those fans who were familiar with the group that could even begin to appreciate Gillan's unorthodox role with New Order...it certainly wasn't a primary role, since by her own admission Stephen mostly handled the compositions in The Other Two, so it stands to reason her input into New Order would have been equivalent...

Where's Molly?

Indeed. You only have to hear some of the live keyboard parts to know that Gillian was strictly of the one finger school of keyboard playing, though she did branch out into some simple three-finger chords occasionally (and not always successfully). She managed to completely butcher LWTUA the first time they played it !

Her guitar playing was better than her keyboard playing, but still barely above the Richey Edwards level.

Originally posted by The Happy One it certainly wasn't a primary role, since by her own admission Stephen mostly handled the compositions in The Other Two, so it stands to reason her input into New Order would have been equivalent...

That could be easily explained by the vagueness of phraseology. Who's to say that she wasn't referring to the arrangement in terms of composition? What do you take composition to mean? She obviously made a contribution, what it was is unsure, that it was beyond all the achievements of everone who's ever posted on here is I'd have thought beyond debate and criticising it is churlish.

For a long time, I actually thought Steve Morris played synths too, I thought the drumming on songs like True Faith was a machine.

I thought all of New Order could play keyboards??! And I'm certain that the beat to the studio version of True Faith is a drum machine... could be wrong though

Bernard Sumner has butchered more songs live than Gillian. He's a disgrace. At least Gillian didn't make an ass of herself on stage.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid Bernard Sumner has butchered more songs live than Gillian. He's a disgrace.

You`re not a big fan then?

Originally posted by steve52 > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid> Bernard Sumner has butchered more songs live than Gillian. He's a disgrace.

You`re not a big fan then?

I love Bernard Sumner's voice and even his stupid lyics most of the time but i do believe he is the main reason New Order are never more than mediocre live. Sure it's a rush to be in the crowd but after listening to a @175 live shows it's obvious that BS fucks up way more then the other 3. His guitar playing is very "punk" ie. SHIT, he can't remember the lyrics to anysong even if he's sung it hundreds of times before, he whoops, he whistles, he jumps around like a goon and generally diminishes the entire "atmosphere" of a New Order show. In short, if Sumner was half as reliable as Gillian, we'd probably have a couple more albums by New Order to enjoy, and the live bootlegs would be listenable without laughing or cringing. Unfortunately, there are multiple instances EACH show where Sumner totally destroys the vibe one way or another. It's typical LADDISH behaviour to single out the female for poor performance and insinuate all she did was keep Steve happy and make tea. Everyone hits bad notes but none so often as Bernard Sumner. New Order would be served well if they split their albums into one side Vocal tracks and one side Instrumentals. Sumner shouldn't be allowed to write lyrics for more than 6 songs per album. Any more than that and we suffer with childish, hideous lyrics like Slow Jam, Rock the Shack and plenty others. Stop f**king with Gillian. I'd rather listen to a record made by Steven Morris, Peter Hook and Gillian Gilbert than another half-assed album by the remaining members with SHITE lyrics by Sumner.

I love Bernard Sumner's voice and even his stupid lyics most of the time but i do believe he is the main reason New Order are never more than mediocre live.

Tell us how you truly feel, Biz.

If it wasn't for all these antics, I would have fallen asleep transcribing this stuff ages ago...bless him for all the whoops, messups, and off-color lyrics! There's plenty of Gillian and Hooky howlers to warm the embers...but I'll be damned if I can find one from the human drum machine...er, Steve.

--Sam

Passover on Still is a good 'un, and there are quite a few out there if you dig deep enough !

Originally posted by Detweiler Passover on Still is a good 'un, and there are quite a few out there if you dig deep enough !

And there it is, right at 3:17. Forgotten about that one. Deep enough in the trashbin you mean, if Steve's off, than what hope is there? :)

--Sam

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid > Originally posted by steve52> > > > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid> > Bernard Sumner has butchered more songs live than Gillian. He's a disgrace. >

You`re not a big fan then?

I love Bernard Sumner's voice and even his stupid lyics most of the time but i do believe he is the main reason New Order are never more than mediocre live. Sure it's a rush to be in the crowd but after listening to a @175 live shows it's obvious that BS fucks up way more then the other 3. His guitar playing is very "punk" ie. SHIT, he can't remember the lyrics to anysong even if he's sung it hundreds of times before, he whoops, he whistles, he jumps around like a goon and generally diminishes the entire "atmosphere" of a New Order show. In short, if Sumner was half as reliable as Gillian, we'd probably have a couple more albums by New Order to enjoy, and the live bootlegs would be listenable without laughing or cringing. Unfortunately, there are multiple instances EACH show where Sumner totally destroys the vibe one way or another. It's typical LADDISH behaviour to single out the female for poor performance and insinuate all she did was keep Steve happy and make tea. Everyone hits bad notes but none so often as Bernard Sumner. New Order would be served well if they split their albums into one side Vocal tracks and one side Instrumentals. Sumner shouldn't be allowed to write lyrics for more than 6 songs per album. Any more than that and we suffer with childish, hideous lyrics like Slow Jam, Rock the Shack and plenty others. Stop f**king with Gillian. I'd rather listen to a record made by Steven Morris, Peter Hook and Gillian Gilbert than another half-assed album by the remaining members with SHITE lyrics by Sumner.

I get the feeling you feel strongly about this,you started off saying you love Barney-by the end you hate him!

Brian is right to a very large degree, most of the errors and certainly all of the dickhead behaviour comes from Barney. Unfortunately most of the really creative people seem to have an idiotic side, and this does come out at times, if it's not silly dancing it is potty-mouthed rhyming. There's no excuse for poor playing really, there's a difference between being underrehearsed and playing bum notes. Intoxication in varying forms probably has more to do with it.

Gillian isn't exactly absolved of bum note blame though, some of her errors are truly monumental - the NO debut of LWTUA was almost rendered unrecognisable by an ahem slightly different keyboard line. Guitar-wise she's more consistent than Barney.

Anyone who doubts all these criticisms Brian has made and which I have to a degree reinforced should seek out the Atlanta 85 show - I'm sure Julio will be able to help you out with a copy.

You're right, there is a difference between experiencing a gig (where half the time you can't hear what he says between songs, or really hear bum notes) and picking faults with a performance from the safety net of listening to the CD of it. Probably why they don't like releasing live performances.

Gig-wise, it does enhance the show (or at least to when all you got was terse comments every few numbers) - I'm still not so sure that I prefer the big intro spiel for most numbers we get these days, it's all a little too contrived. When you try and evoke the memories by listening to the recording though, it falls a bit flat and is a bit embarrassing.

Wembley 87 worse than NEC 89? Even Stephen I think. Bum notes , whoops etc are all part of the live thang for NO, that's why they still entertain us more than ever. The Rock Around The Clock thing was full of mistakes and this was in front of a TV audience of millions. Classic.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Casey Ryback> Wembley 87 worse than NEC 89? Even Stephen I think. Bum notes , whoops etc are all part of the live thang for NO, that's why they still entertain us more than ever. The Rock Around The Clock thing was full of mistakes and this was in front of a TV audience of millions. Classic.

And Bernard swore too!

At 5 o'clock on a Saturday afternoon as the whole nation sat down for tea!

Apart from those of us who were stuck in traffic in Fratton, and had to listen to it on the radio. Still, made sense to get to Portsmouth a day early, got a decent night's sleep for just about that only time in 12 days !

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Casey Ryback> Wembley 87 worse than NEC 89? Even Stephen I think. Bum notes , whoops etc are all part of the live thang for NO, that's why they still entertain us more than ever. The Rock Around The Clock thing was full of mistakes and this was in front of a TV audience of millions. Classic.

And Bernard swore too!

At 5 o'clock on a Saturday afternoon as the whole nation sat down for tea!

and as for Steve's grinning or was it a grimace !!

The chin of concentration......

Originally posted by Casey Ryback Wembley 87 worse than NEC 89? Even Stephen I think. Bum notes , whoops etc are all part of the live thang for NO, that's why they still entertain us more than ever. The Rock Around The Clock thing was full of mistakes and this was in front of a TV audience of millions. Classic.

I can't make me mind up as to which was worse, Wembley or the NEC. I hated the NEC show, but for different reasons to most people there. I think I've only ever listened to the recording once. Wembley just wasn't them as they were at the time. Two years later the size of venue was more plausible.

Originally posted by Detweiler 3.63 > Originally posted by Casey Ryback> Wembley 87 worse than NEC 89? Even Stephen I think. Bum notes , whoops etc are all part of the live thang for NO, that's why they still entertain us more than ever. The Rock Around The Clock thing was full of mistakes and this was in front of a TV audience of millions. Classic.

I can't make me mind up as to which was worse, Wembley or the NEC. I hated the NEC show, but for different reasons to most people there. I think I've only ever listened to the recording once. Wembley just wasn't them as they were at the time. Two years later the size of venue was more plausible.

A lot of the gigs in '87 seem to lack something. The Reading Uni gig for example again seemed flat even though Let's Go was a pretty decent take.

Of the six gigs I saw in '87 ,brixton,glastonbury and sheffield roxy were absolute classics.Hazy on finsbury and the hacienda and well wembley was complete and utter shite.

Oh and I hated the NEC and SEC gigs.Great weekend though.

well if we are painting people with the bum note brush then the entire band should be dripping with paint. but wasnt that the whole thing about new order "the perfect sound played unperfect?". i digress. gillian was,is? imensely important to new order,i saw em play at the hac back in 83 and they was utterly amazing gillian included,then i watched em on the switch and the overhead cam passes over gillian and there is electrical tape on the keyboard to show her which keys to play. u would never had known it to hear them though. new order without her isnt the same and the fact that she is steves partner gives me hope that we will see her again one day,and i predict that when that day comes ,many on this site will smile and aplaud.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Detweiler> Brian is right to a very large degree, most of the errors and certainly all of the dickhead behaviour comes from Barney. ..

I can't agree that this in any way spoils a gig for me though, or detracts from the atmosphere. I've seen New Order in the US - there's little or no atmosphere whatsoever, and that's not as a result of the band in question it's down to the fact they don't have the 'ardcore following New Order boast on these shores. There just seems to be a 'vaguely interested' passing support and nothing more. Take New Order's very worst gigging nightmare in the UK - say, Wembley 87 or something of that sanitised stadium ilk - and that atmosphere is still thirty times what I've experienced abroad with New Order simply down to the nature of the audience. To pick-up a bootleg from 20 years previous and declare war against Barney for singing off-key or - heaven forbid - swearing, or whatever, and claiming that spoils a gig seems a tad untoward unless you were really there in the first instance to comment. Bum notes don't detract from an atmosphere. If anything, they might actually 'make' one.

This reminds me of a certain other newsgroup whereby most of the people slag New Order's recent output to the nth degree, hypothesise at length about the 'meaning of it all', then hark back to the good ol' days of New order when everything was So Much Better (although none of them actually experienced that ride). You'd just love to take one of these people back 20 years, stick 'em down the front of some dodgy nightclub gig and you know damn well that they would've sh@t themselves and be waxing lyrical about an entirely different band today.

I agree with you that his frequent mistakes do not really spoil the live experience. I don't have much personal experience to draw from but even amongst the sterile US crowd, the power and energy of the New Order live show has stayed with me for years and i don't even remember the excessive whooping and whistling. My point was about giving Gillian grief for not being a talented musician and making errors on stage when it's Sumner who is responsible for the lion's share of fuck ups. I also can't understand how people who obsess over their bootleg collection cannot come out and admit that their stash would be much more appreciated if 75% of the time Bernard Sumner didn't fuck up (Detweiller excluded). Imagine a gig you could actually listen to without cringing or wondering how much alcohol or cocaine Sumner had to consume to foget the words to Bizarre Love Triangle or True Faith. Most of the live show's i have are worthless except for the fact that i am slightly obsessed with New Order and crave any and all knowledge of the band including hurting my ears to listen to audience recordings of shows Sumner ruins with his lack of timing and inablilty to remember lyrics. I laugh when he changes the lyrics to swear words or funny inside jokes but it is appalling that he can't come in on the right measure and has to read his lyrics on a teleprompter. This isn't about enjoying the show while you're in the audience, it's about the enjoyment of the bootlegs after the fact. I absolutely do not agree that you had to be at the show to critisize the recording. That's a bunch of nonsense. It doesn't detract from the personal experience of being at the show but to those listening years later, it's pretty telling that it's Bernard Sumner who time and time again ruins the performance. Until you invent a time machine, the recordings are all most of us have and those are considerably marred by Mr. Sumner. I still enjoy listening but i'm not so blind and deaf that i can't see or hear who the worst offender is when it comes to live mistakes...and it ain't Gillian!

It is only in recent years that i have listened to much LIVE stuff.I couldn't TOLERATE the mainly bad sound recordings of the many i had heard.That said i know i like listening to how the songs have evolved.But a lot of the time i thought that if i did not attend the concert then it didn't mean much to me.Having seen lots of groups live although i don't NEW ORDER are at the best sometimes but still enjoy their concerts more than most.I can understand why the more MUSICAL of you may find them a tad unproffessional but because i have had a beer or two it doesn't really bother me.As for GILLIAN i miss her as much LIVE now because somehow it does not seem like NEW ORDER without her.As i don't really know every time she is actually playing something i cannot hope to know who fcuk's up what.I just go to enjoy myself.I hope that she one day comes back into the group.This is not to say PC is not doing a good job.IT JUST AIN'T NEW ORDER AS I REMEMBER. Regards ROCKET MICK

Gillian chilled Bernard's hot guitars out and that was nice and that's what kept New Order in shape of their unique sound in 1981-1993. Yeah!!:p

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid > Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Detweiler> Brian is right to a very large degree, most of the errors and certainly all of the dickhead behaviour comes from Barney. ..

I can't agree that this in any way spoils a gig for me though, or detracts from the atmosphere. I've seen New Order in the US - there's little or no atmosphere whatsoever, and that's not as a result of the band in question it's down to the fact they don't have the 'ardcore following New Order boast on these shores. There just seems to be a 'vaguely interested' passing support and nothing more. Take New Order's very worst gigging nightmare in the UK - say, Wembley 87 or something of that sanitised stadium ilk - and that atmosphere is still thirty times what I've experienced abroad with New Order simply down to the nature of the audience. To pick-up a bootleg from 20 years previous and declare war against Barney for singing off-key or - heaven forbid - swearing, or whatever, and claiming that spoils a gig seems a tad untoward unless you were really there in the first instance to comment. Bum notes don't detract from an atmosphere. If anything, they might actually 'make' one.

This reminds me of a certain other newsgroup whereby most of the people slag New Order's recent output to the nth degree, hypothesise at length about the 'meaning of it all', then hark back to the good ol' days of New order when everything was So Much Better (although none of them actually experienced that ride). You'd just love to take one of these people back 20 years, stick 'em down the front of some dodgy nightclub gig and you know damn well that they would've sh@t themselves and be waxing lyrical about an entirely different band today.

I agree with you that his frequent mistakes do not really spoil the live experience. I don't have much personal experience to draw from but even amongst the sterile US crowd, the power and energy of the New Order live show has stayed with me for years and i don't even remember the excessive whooping and whistling. My point was about giving Gillian grief for not being a talented musician and making errors on stage when it's Sumner who is responsible for the lion's share of fuck ups. I also can't understand how people who obsess over their bootleg collection cannot come out and admit that their stash would be much more appreciated if 75% of the time Bernard Sumner didn't fuck up (Detweiller excluded). Imagine a gig you could actually listen to without cringing or wondering how much alcohol or cocaine Sumner had to consume to foget the words to Bizarre Love Triangle or True Faith. Most of the live show's i have are worthless except for the fact that i am slightly obsessed with New Order and crave any and all knowledge of the band including hurting my ears to listen to audience recordings of shows Sumner ruins with his lack of timing and inablilty to remember lyrics. I laugh when he changes the lyrics to swear words or funny inside jokes but it is appalling that he can't come in on the right measure and has to read his lyrics on a teleprompter. This isn't about enjoying the show while you're in the audience, it's about the enjoyment of the bootlegs after the fact. I absolutely do not agree that you had to be at the show to critisize the recording. That's a bunch of nonsense. It doesn't detract from the personal experience of being at the show but to those listening years later, it's pretty telling that it's Bernard Sumner who time and time again ruins the performance. Until you invent a time machine, the recordings are all most of us have and those are considerably marred by Mr. Sumner. I still enjoy listening but i'm not so blind and deaf that i can't see or hear who the worst offender is when it comes to live mistakes...and it ain't Gillian! Good words, Brian. I agree. Ban the Barney! (well, not really, but get him a real job)

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Detweiler> Brian is right to a very large degree, most of the errors and certainly all of the dickhead behaviour comes from Barney. ..

I can't agree that this in any way spoils a gig for me though, or detracts from the atmosphere. I've seen New Order in the US - there's little or no atmosphere whatsoever, and that's not as a result of the band in question it's down to the fact they don't have the 'ardcore following New Order boast on these shores. There just seems to be a 'vaguely interested' passing support and nothing more. Take New Order's very worst gigging nightmare in the UK - say, Wembley 87 or something of that sanitised stadium ilk - and that atmosphere is still thirty times what I've experienced abroad with New Order simply down to the nature of the audience. To pick-up a bootleg from 20 years previous and declare war against Barney for singing off-key or - heaven forbid - swearing, or whatever, and claiming that spoils a gig seems a tad untoward unless you were really there in the first instance to comment. Bum notes don't detract from an atmosphere. If anything, they might actually 'make' one.

This reminds me of a certain other newsgroup whereby most of the people slag New Order's recent output to the nth degree, hypothesise at length about the 'meaning of it all', then hark back to the good ol' days of New order when everything was So Much Better (although none of them actually experienced that ride). You'd just love to take one of these people back 20 years, stick 'em down the front of some dodgy nightclub gig and you know damn well that they would've sh@t themselves and be waxing lyrical about an entirely different band today.

I'm curious which US shows you attended, Al. What you said above holds true for the abysmal 1993 shows and perhaps the 2001 tour and 2nd leg of 1989 could have been better.

I feel the US shows before those tours actually had a wonderful atmosphere (less rowdy that UK gigs, for better or worse) with a pretty good mix of people. They never had much radio airplay here and virtually none before True Faith so the audiences were fairly hardcore music fans if not hardcore New Order fans. Much better than the crowd in 2001 who were there mostly for Moby or Outkast.

her role in NO was she banged a guy in the band and got to play an instrument, end of story

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol her role in NO was she banged a guy in the band and got to play an instrument, end of story

yes, but unlike other instances of this, she was no yoko. and you have no proof as to any banging that may have occurred; she could've been saving herself for marriage.

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol her role in NO was she banged a guy in the band and got to play an instrument, end of story

yes, but unlike other instances of this, she was no yoko. and you have no proof as to any banging that may have occurred; she could've been saving herself for marriage. no proof? hmm where did I put my Stevie and Gillian explicit sex tape...

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol her role in NO was she banged a guy in the band and got to play an instrument, end of story

typical obnoxious opinion from a Republican. clueless, insulting and oblivious. Just like a typical Democrat with his head halfway up his arse taking everything at face value not understanding sarcasm and humor.

there was need to delete your post Brian

Originally posted by Duckman there was need to delete your post Brian

sometimes i get all aggro and post stuff i don't really mean or stuff that's totally ridiculous. that post was something i just didn't want to get into thus the deletion. nice that you caught it though!

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid > Originally posted by Duckman there was need to delete your post Brian

sometimes i get all aggro and post stuff i don't really mean or stuff that's totally ridiculous. that post was something i just didn't want to get into thus the deletion. nice that you caught it though! It was a good laugh, no hard feelings

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Zachery Starkey> > The electronics are important, they are part of what set New Order apart from other bands.

Ask yourself this though - 'electronically' which was superior? The first Electronic album, or absolutely anything by the Other Two? I'd go with the former every day of the week.

It's a tad naive to assume, as a lot of people seem to do, that Gillian was the electronics whizz in the band just because she stood behind a keyboard on stage.

If your talking about the synths and not about guitars, or the songs as a whole, I happen to think the synth/keyboard work on The Other Two and You sounds much fresher, and far more melodic than most of the synth work on Electronic. Other than the clunky instrumentals in the middle of the album the four songs featuring vocals that started the album and the concluding sample heavy song to me are far, far more beautiful pieces of synthesizer work than the debut from Electronic. Electronic had some amazing moments, Some Distant Memory and Patience of a Saint being highlights for me, but the Other Two and You is definitely better when it comes to synth work, to me.

Than again we rarely seem to agree on anything (when I'm reading your posts), so this doesn't surprise me much.

Shes the 4Th Part fo New Order.She's Important.

In Germany we said she'S "UNROCKBAR"

Originally posted by Matthias Schleicher Shes the 4Th Part fo New Order.She's Important.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Stephen Smith> > Than again we rarely seem to agree on anything (when I'm reading your posts), so this doesn't surprise me much.

I'm surprised. I don't think the Other Two even part-way 'sounds' like a New Order record, as such, which again gives Barney the nod as to who was the electronics whizz in said band. On Electronic he's gone off at a tangent with, say, Idiot Country but there's definitely fledgling New Order in there when the rapping the wah-wah geetarz give way to melody. Reality smacks of New Order and if you could only add a Hooky bass to the opening bars of Gangster and Try All You Want (I just love the way that intro swoops down from the skies) then you'd have two 'electronica' tracks which walk all over anything that Repbublic had to offer in the synthed-up range.

Forgive me, but I fail to remember what we're supposed to have disagreed on before.

Damn, my post just got completely deleted so I'll be more succinct. Tasty Fish, Selfish, The Greatest Thing, Movin On, Innocence and Loved it sound to me like the next step in the musical evolution following Technique. The Electronic debut sounded to me like a completely distinct melding of the musical interests of Marr and Sumner and to a far lesser degree PSB. There is no way you can take New Order out of the Electronic equation, considering Sumner played a key and instrumental role in creating the New Order sound, and heck, I imagine his role in Joy Division suggests that at least early on he was one of the most interested members when it came to electronics.

But when I listen to Other Two and You, I hear what sounds like the musical evolution of Technique's sound, going forward. When I listen to the Electronic Debut, it just sound's like a new band to me. Like comparing Blind Faith to Creem or Plastic Ono Band to The Beatles. There are similarities, and even core traits w/in both, but they seem distinct and rather separate. The Other Two and You is also distinct, but I really do feel like I hear the electronic sound of New Order in that album on the vocal tracks and the sample driven "Loved It".

I like both albums, but what I hate about Republic may be the fact that it sounds like a sequel to Electronic, and I've heard many rumors that Bernard was far far more heavily involved in it's creation than he may have been in past albums, particularly the production aspect. That could easily be b.s., but it's a hard rumor to ignore when you realize that Republic has far more in common w/the sound of Electronic, than w/say Technique or any other New Order album. Listening to Other Two and You, in contrast, at least in regards to songs 1-4, and 9 and 10, I feel what New Order might have sounded like if Peter Hook wasn't around, and Gillian was singing instead of Bernard. It just sounded like a truly beautiful record too me. A great one, until it was filled out w/all those cr@ppy instrumentals.

As for us disagreeing, it has more to do w/my posts at another New Order forum in the past, and a few my posts when I was here a year ago, but most of all my visceral opinion when I read some of your takes on the music itself. We disagree in matters of taste I suppose. In terms of New Order knowledge, you could mop the floor w/me twice over w/o breaking a sweat, I have no doubt about that. I don't post very often around here, I read the threads and think about them a bit and when it comes often to taste in the music side of things I find myself in disagreement w/you. Usually not in the forum itself but just in my own reading of the particular threads and my response to them.