How important was Gillian's role in New Order?

Okay, I'm having it out with a Simon Stuart in Usenet's "alt.music.new-order" over the importance of Gillian's role in New Order. I thought it was fairly well-known that she contributed relatively little to the composition of the music (the other three mainly did the heavy lifting), and a couple of people here have stated it as if it was fact, but I'm now wondering what led you to come to that conclusion.

Note that I'm not arguing that Gillian wasn't important to New Order (she was) but that the group has a right to call themselves "New Order" without her as a part of the group and can produce worthwhile art without her involvement.

--Sam

For "Technique", it seems unlikely that Barney composed two guitar parts for most of the acoustic based songs. Plus, Dream Attack's working title was "Gillian's Acoustic One", right?

Maybe she's just the Andy Fletcher of the group, and is more important as a moderator than a musician

sid vicious, cressa, ian curtis

only joking!

speaking of jokes, that april fools was a good one.

I think she had a reasonabally important role. bernard , technically is no pavoritti, but that doesnt mean he hasnt an important role in the group / writes a good lyric.

just cause she never became too nimble on the guitar doesnt mean she was worthless to the group. diddnt i hear it said that (for instance) herself and steve wrote the melody to world in motion? the credits to all songs are "neworder".

also, the fact she got on well with the rest of em,etc, wasnt a twat (like say, john fusicante) counts for a lot.

Having someone to play all the tasty synth parts (even if played wrongly most of the time) makes her very important in my book, even if she didn't really contribute musically. She also should've done more to boost the band's sex appeal. :p

Vital,if there was no Gillian there would just be the 3 of them on stage like a older Busted!

Hang on...

Originally posted by almanso Andy Fletcher, Lol Tolhurst, Gillian Gilbert, Bez.... it seems every band must have one of these guys to succeed!

i think BEZ was very Important to the Mondays, never underestimate the Vibes!!!!!

To have a reasonably talented artist who brings a stoic presence to a group seems to work for a lot of the long standing groups that still make new music. Lowe from pet shop boys, Fletcher (as was mentioned) from depeche mode, and Gillian in new order (although she isnt in the group as of now but still).

Keeps the egos in balance

She is wonderful in that she gives me something to look at on those live gigs instead of Bernard "OOH" Sumner, Peter "hairy" Hook, and Stephen "sweat-a-lot" Morris (lucky b'stard!)

Originally posted by almanso Andy Fletcher, Lol Tolhurst, Gillian Gilbert, Bez.... it seems every band must have one of these guys to succeed!

Oooooooh, wait there. Andrew Fletcher claps and excites the audience as no one else

Originally posted by Slippy She is wonderful in that she gives me something to look at on those live gigs instead of Bernard "OOH" Sumner, Peter "hairy" Hook, and Stephen "sweat-a-lot" Morris (lucky b'stard!)

You know if you were hitched with her, you'd be sweating a lot too.

She was very important, she is the best "one-finger" keyboard player off all time !!

Almanso is a great fan of her !!

I feel her contributions are often undervalued. She may not have known how to play when she started, but then neither did Warsaw when they started.

I have said it before I think the lack of beautiful synth melodies on Get Ready is directly attributable to her not being there. So, I think while she may not have been involved in most of the basic song compositions, she certainly polished them.

Her backing vocals should not be forgotten. A real shame she never sang a whole NO tune.

Originally posted by Jackson Withrow To have a reasonably talented artist who brings a stoic presence to a group seems to work for a lot of the long standing groups that still make new music. Lowe from pet shop boys, Fletcher (as was mentioned) from depeche mode, and Gillian in new order (although she isnt in the group as of now but still). Keeps the egos in balance

Don't compare Chris Lowe to Gillian and Fletch. Unlike the latter two, he actually knows how to program and use a synth, with more than one hand. Although, in songs like "I want a dog" and a few off of "Nightlife," he doesn't play any "piano-sounding" parts, like Rodger O'Donnell of the Cure has a few times, he provides the base (not the bass) for most of PSB's song structures.

It's interesting to see Andy Fletcher's name bandied about.

Having him perform would have just been like having Rob Gretton up on stage playing along (which did happen at least once, at their '83 DC gig), as Fletch was the manager/business one with little instrumental aptitude, right?

The Order would have been right a lads band had Gretton done that. But how essential was Gillian's appeal, given that many casual fans listening to their output on the radio or the dancefloor had no conception of the players in question. It's only those fans who were familiar with the group that could even begin to appreciate Gillan's unorthodox role with New Order...it certainly wasn't a primary role, since by her own admission Stephen mostly handled the compositions in The Other Two, so it stands to reason her input into New Order would have been equivalent...

I think Gillian's part in enw Order was very important. I mean, the electronics and key boards are a very big part of New Orders sound. To me, The electronics and Hookys bass are what made New Order awesome, along with Barneys voice and Hooks bass. For a long time, I actually thought Steve Morris played synths too, I thought the drumming on songs like True Faith was a machine.

She may not have composed the keyboard parts, but the certainly polished them. She was a very important part of New Orders sleek, euro electro sound.Especially live. I love seeing her playing keyboards on 3 16. She also operated the sequencers, in the old days. Its nice to know that most of those electronics were being played live.

I think New Order has suffered since she left. Get ready lacked a lot of the synth melodies and polish, which shows I think that she was part of that.

And I HATE Phil Cunningham live. On 5 11, the keyboards on Regret, Crystal, and Brutal are all very very prominent in aldding melody and structure to the song. If Gillian were in the band, she would be playing those parts live. Instead, those important synth parts are put on a backign track so Phil can play the EXACT SAME guitar parts as Bernard is playing. And he plys some god awful heavy metal solo on Blue Monday. Ugh..

The electronics are important, they are part of what set New Order apart from other bands.

Originally posted by This blue-eyed boy that wants to be > Originally posted by Jackson Withrow> To have a reasonably talented artist who brings a stoic presence to a group seems to work for a lot of the long standing groups that still make new music. Lowe from pet shop boys, Fletcher (as was mentioned) from depeche mode, and Gillian in new order (although she isnt in the group as of now but still). > > Keeps the egos in balance

I Don't compare Chris Lowe to Gillian and Fletch. Unlike the latter two, he actually knows how to program and use a synth, with more than one hand. Although, in songs like "I want a dog" and a few off of "Nightlife," he doesn't play any "piano-sounding" parts, like Rodger O'Donnell of the Cure has a few times, he provides the base (not the bass) for most of PSB's song structures.

I wasn't comparing them as artists, just the fact they are both fairly quiet in terms of their counterparts and they are often more physically in the background.

Originally posted by The Happy One It's interesting to see Andy Fletcher's name bandied about.Having him perform would have just been like having Rob Gretton up on stage playing along (which did happen at least once, at their '83 DC gig), as Fletch was the manager/business one with little instrumental aptitude, right?The Order would have been right a lads band had Gretton done that. But how essential was Gillian's appeal, given that many casual fans listening to their output on the radio or the dancefloor had no conception of the players in question. It's only those fans who were familiar with the group that could even begin to appreciate Gillan's unorthodox role with New Order...it certainly wasn't a primary role, since by her own admission Stephen mostly handled the compositions in The Other Two, so it stands to reason her input into New Order would have been equivalent...

Where's Molly?

Indeed. You only have to hear some of the live keyboard parts to know that Gillian was strictly of the one finger school of keyboard playing, though she did branch out into some simple three-finger chords occasionally (and not always successfully). She managed to completely butcher LWTUA the first time they played it !

Her guitar playing was better than her keyboard playing, but still barely above the Richey Edwards level.

Originally posted by The Happy One it certainly wasn't a primary role, since by her own admission Stephen mostly handled the compositions in The Other Two, so it stands to reason her input into New Order would have been equivalent...

That could be easily explained by the vagueness of phraseology. Who's to say that she wasn't referring to the arrangement in terms of composition? What do you take composition to mean? She obviously made a contribution, what it was is unsure, that it was beyond all the achievements of everone who's ever posted on here is I'd have thought beyond debate and criticising it is churlish.

For a long time, I actually thought Steve Morris played synths too, I thought the drumming on songs like True Faith was a machine.

I thought all of New Order could play keyboards??! And I'm certain that the beat to the studio version of True Faith is a drum machine... could be wrong though

Bernard Sumner has butchered more songs live than Gillian. He's a disgrace. At least Gillian didn't make an ass of herself on stage.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid Bernard Sumner has butchered more songs live than Gillian. He's a disgrace.

You`re not a big fan then?

Originally posted by steve52 > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid> Bernard Sumner has butchered more songs live than Gillian. He's a disgrace.

You`re not a big fan then?

I love Bernard Sumner's voice and even his stupid lyics most of the time but i do believe he is the main reason New Order are never more than mediocre live. Sure it's a rush to be in the crowd but after listening to a @175 live shows it's obvious that BS fucks up way more then the other 3. His guitar playing is very "punk" ie. SHIT, he can't remember the lyrics to anysong even if he's sung it hundreds of times before, he whoops, he whistles, he jumps around like a goon and generally diminishes the entire "atmosphere" of a New Order show. In short, if Sumner was half as reliable as Gillian, we'd probably have a couple more albums by New Order to enjoy, and the live bootlegs would be listenable without laughing or cringing. Unfortunately, there are multiple instances EACH show where Sumner totally destroys the vibe one way or another. It's typical LADDISH behaviour to single out the female for poor performance and insinuate all she did was keep Steve happy and make tea. Everyone hits bad notes but none so often as Bernard Sumner. New Order would be served well if they split their albums into one side Vocal tracks and one side Instrumentals. Sumner shouldn't be allowed to write lyrics for more than 6 songs per album. Any more than that and we suffer with childish, hideous lyrics like Slow Jam, Rock the Shack and plenty others. Stop f**king with Gillian. I'd rather listen to a record made by Steven Morris, Peter Hook and Gillian Gilbert than another half-assed album by the remaining members with SHITE lyrics by Sumner.

I love Bernard Sumner's voice and even his stupid lyics most of the time but i do believe he is the main reason New Order are never more than mediocre live.

Tell us how you truly feel, Biz.

If it wasn't for all these antics, I would have fallen asleep transcribing this stuff ages ago...bless him for all the whoops, messups, and off-color lyrics! There's plenty of Gillian and Hooky howlers to warm the embers...but I'll be damned if I can find one from the human drum machine...er, Steve.

--Sam

Passover on Still is a good 'un, and there are quite a few out there if you dig deep enough !

Originally posted by Detweiler Passover on Still is a good 'un, and there are quite a few out there if you dig deep enough !

And there it is, right at 3:17. Forgotten about that one. Deep enough in the trashbin you mean, if Steve's off, than what hope is there? :)

--Sam