Rarities - do we want/need them?

I was pondering on the fact that many NOOLers would like a rarities CD. The one that most people thought should have been Retro!

I personally think rare should remain rare. Anything that has had an official release at some point is still feasible to get so why would we want to destroy their collectability by releasing it all? By all means release everything that hasn't had a release.

ps. still after the Morel's Pink noise mix of True Faith - the Miami music conference version - EIL want £60!!

It's the "have's and have not's" though, isn't it ? Those who already have the "rare" releases may want them to stay collectable, whereas those who don't have them may want a rarities compilation so as to complete their collection.

I know that I want to get the last few live recordings I haven't been able to trace yet, as do many other people on here. When I do get them though, they will be made available to those fellow travellers for whom the last 25 years have been spent collecting every gig possible.

Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.

Originally posted by Casey Ryback Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.

Hmmm - Tindersticks (best British band of the last decade, fact fans!) are doing the same thing, and although the bonus rarities CDs are tempting, I'm feeling pretty resentful that I've got to fork out for a bunch of albums I've already bought. If New Order re-released them at, say, £7-8 a pop it'd be OK, but I can't see that happening somehow....

Originally posted by Casey Ryback Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.

But there aren't the bonus tracks in existence.....it's all out there already. You surely don't want Blue Monday, The Beach and Confusion tagged onto Power Corruption and Lies do you ?

Elvis Costello has the right idea, digital re-mastering of the old albums to CD, with a bonus live disc of the same tracks from that era. Some fantastic live stuff. Difference being he is competent live !

It would be very pricey for us buyers I agree but it would be nice to hear say the original 7inch Temptation or Movement say in remastered format as sound quality has improved somewhat. Someone mentioned the Thieves quality on International, the remaster did it justice.

Originally posted by Detweiler 3.63 > Originally posted by Casey Ryback> Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.

But there aren't the bonus tracks in existence.....it's all out there already. You surely don't want Blue Monday, The Beach and Confusion tagged onto Power Corruption and Lies do you ?

A project like what the PSB's did. The original album with an additional cd of singles, live etc. My version of PC&L has BM and The Beach already on it. Confusion obviously wouldn't work I agree.

Neworder are far too lazy / busy (delete as appropriate ) to do something like this, lets just hope the album's near complete and we get a few gigs this year

I'll drink to that.

Echo & the Bunneymen have re-mastered there albums with bonus tracks, 12" versions, live tracks, demo versions and include a nice glossy booklet in each album. It works, because the extra content makes each album feel new again.

The Go-Betweens, best aussie band.......er ever, have released the first few albums with bonus CDs. they are doing the rest this year. I don't know, it just seems like an excuse to sell the bloody albums again to us sad buggers who've already paid for the tape/record, cd, dvd, singles, limited singles and cds, remastered versions, imported albums with alternative covers and so on.......

I suppose if they come out though I'll buy them so.....

Cheers Jon

Id be hppy to see the vinyl only stuff released on CD. other than that just the videos released as DVD. Not bothered about 2001 type remixes of 80s tracks,after all they arent really even New Order just Barneys voice.

...and how about 'International 2', which was initialized by Negative One ?...

Originally posted by The Saviour ...and how about 'International 2', which was initialized by Negative One ?...

Illegal. Has he paid the band all the royalties they would be due from that production ?

Originally posted by Detweiler 3.63 > Originally posted by The Saviour> ...and how about 'International 2', which was initialized by Negative One ?...

Illegal. Has he paid the band all the royalties they would be due from that production ?

...yes it's illegal, but be sure, I would pay for a collection of singles, b-sides and other stuff...

...by the way - finally, I got this item...

Originally posted by Casey Ryback > Originally posted by Detweiler 3.63> > > > Originally posted by Casey Ryback> > Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.>

But there aren't the bonus tracks in existence.....it's all out there already. You surely don't want Blue Monday, The Beach and Confusion tagged onto Power Corruption and Lies do you ?

A project like what the PSB's did. The original album with an additional cd of singles, live etc. My version of PC&L has BM and The Beach already on it. Confusion obviously wouldn't work I agree.

Great idea, and one that I've been wondering about for a while... Some new reworkings would be wicked! but I can't see that happening

well tbh what rare stuff is there?. i mean lets face it new order are such a bunch of lazy twats that nearly every album has been a what u hear is what u get deal. i can only think of a handfull of tracks that are rare ect and by that i mean 3-4 max and thats after a 23 year career. there is one track ive seen mentioned a few times albeit a joy div track called "in dedication" which i have never heard and noe has anyone here otherwise it would be available in some form or another,but i remember it being mentioned in nme a few times. another hooky vault gem me wonders??? :\ohwell:

Originally posted by Slippy ps. still after the Morel's Pink noise mix of True Faith - the Miami music conference version - EIL want £60!!

You should be able to get one of the US CD promos for less than that.

Are there really that many rarities left (as in rare tracks, not rare issues) that would be listenable on a CD? Sure, it'd be nice to have some of the 7" versions or Run 2 on CD, but who listens to obscure remix #43 of True Faith?

No, give the videos re-released on DVD. Now.

/TLV

Originally posted by Jonathan Evans The Go-Betweens, best aussie band.......er ever, have released the first few albums with bonus CDs. they are doing the rest this year. I don't know, it just seems like an excuse to sell the bloody albums again to us sad buggers who've already paid for the tape/record, cd, dvd, singles, limited singles and cds, remastered versions, imported albums with alternative covers and so on.......I suppose if they come out though I'll buy them so.....CheersJon

That's been my concern as well, as I'm not really up to buying the same "album" 4 or 5 times. With NO, I always stayed with the US/UK releases, so it wasn't too bad with them.

Seeing as how I kept all my vinyl, I didn't rush out and buy all of the stuff on CD when it came out, unless there was something extra to draw me in, which is why I picked up on some of those Elvis Costello releases that have been mentioned; those are very nice things indeed. Most of the Bunnymen reissues are full of stuff I already had, but seeing as I didn't buy those CDs at first, it's nice to have all of those extra tracks together in one place.

Currently, The Fall reissues of Witch Trials and Dragnet are just as great to have, especially to those over here who couldn't get ahold of some of the extra material on the bonus side, with apparently better sound than the first CDs that appeared, or so I've been led to believe, which were mastered from vinyl copies of the album.

Yeah, The Cure's also doing the whole remastered originals plus bonus disc of rarities and other stuff. It'd be great to see New Order do the same...much better than RETRO! :barf:

Originally posted by mike powell well tbh what rare stuff is there?.i mean lets face it new order are such a bunch of lazy twats that nearly every album has been a what u hear is what u get deal.

Exactly right. The way some people go on around here you'd think there was a huge number of unheard songs locked away just waiting to be unleashed. Simply. Not. True.

Like many on here, I've compiled my own "rarities" disc, which currently occupies two 90-minute discs. Mainly rips from vinyl, tape and VHS supplemented with the odd different mix here and there. All officially released stuff. The only "unusual" tracks on there are the Let's Go Demo and The Happy One which are unreleased. But not what I'd call particularly rare.

I would like to bring to the attention of everyone the ACR package:

http://www.souljazzrecords.co.uk/early.htm

The first CD is effectively a greatest hits compilation, but the second disc is superb. The All Night Party 7" on CD, Peel Session material, obscure stuff from the Sir Horatio 12". Is this what we want from New Order?

Illegal. Has he paid the band all the royalties they would be due from that production?

I'm sure he'd like to, but (1) these aren't being sold (2) everybody buying one probably owns most if not all the albums/singles where the songs appear, or would if some of the stuff (Ceremony 7") was still in print (3) folks generally have the wherewithal to find MP3s of what they don't have and isn't available for purchase, and not just from Floyd. Not really much worse than the umpteenth live version of Blue Monday or Temptation, and in the spirit of announcing that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, one can also ask for all the royalties due for the 500 or so boots in your possession. :)

Originally posted by The Happy One > Illegal. Has he paid the band all the royalties they would be due from that production?I'm sure he'd like to, but (1) these aren't being sold (2) everybody buying one probably owns most if not all the albums/singles where the songs appear, or would if some of the stuff (Ceremony 7") was still in print (3) folks generally have the wherewithal to find MP3s of what they don't have and isn't available for purchase, and not just from Floyd. Not really much worse than the umpteenth live version of Blue Monday or Temptation, and in the spirit of announcing that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, one can also ask for all the royalties due for the 500 or so boots in your possession. :)

General unavailability is not an excuse for piracy !

Slightly different copyright laws regarding studio recordings and live recordings.....

Originally posted by mike powell well tbh what rare stuff is there?.i mean lets face it new order are such a bunch of lazy twats that nearly every album has been a what u hear is what u get deal.i can only think of a handfull of tracks that are rare ect and by that i mean 3-4 max and thats after a 23 year career.there is one track ive seen mentioned a few times albeit a joy div track called "in dedication" which i have never heard and noe has anyone here otherwise it would be available in some form or another,but i remember it being mentioned in nme a few times.another hooky vault gem me wonders??? :\ohwell:

Well, exactly. And if there are half-finished tracks somehwere in the alleged treasure trove of "Hooky's vault", would you really want to have to pay to hear them? Believe me, if the band think their stuff is sub-standard enough to be discarded I think I'll trust their judgement!!!

Okay, what we have here is a confliciton between those that basically want all the stuff that's only been released on vinyl with those that want to see demo versions or live tracks on a theoretical "second disc". What we have to assume, of course, is that: (a) all the master tapes still exist since the Factory days, (b) the live and demo songs are of releasable quality, and (c) the band would actually approve of some of the old material getting a re-release - especially when we've all read stories about how Barney doesn't want the original 'Ceremony' re-released, for example.

Personally, aside from the recent live DVD releases, some of the stuff on disc four of 'Retro' and 'Electronic Ecstasy', I find the New Order live archive of recordings of little interest due to either the sound quality or the sometimes shaky performances. What with 'Retro' and the two DVDs, I think I have enough live stuff, thank you very much.

As for unreleased gems, well, we all know that New Order's recording work is often scarce, so I doubt there is very much of master-quality available to feature, other than things like 'The Happy One' and other 'Making Out' tracks, perhaps a few slightly different single edits and the otherwise unreleased 'Vanishing Point' single and mixes that were never released. Of course, there could be a few surprises hidden away in the vaults.

Ideally, I'd love to see the Factory albums re-released, with an extra disc of vinyl-only tracks made by the band (not dodgy DJ remixes) - as the Pet Shop Boys did so succesfully. I think the thing to remember here, is that when you look at the worldwide releases of New Order's singles, there are so many different edits and mixes, that it would be virtually impossible to make (and expensive to buy) any exhaustive CD collection of the whole lot. Most of the rare releases I have got hold of have been using various Internet shops and auction sites over the last couple of years, and I quite like having some really exclusive versions of tracks that won't ever make it onto CD. There's enough resources online to track down the rare mixes, as my New Order track list will testify.

I'd be happy with all the Factory albums being remastered (long overdue, given the improvement in mastering techniques these days) with the tracklistings of the original vinyl releases (so no 'Blue Monday'or 'The Beach' on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' and no 'State of the Nation' on 'Brotherhood') and a second disc with all the significant vinyl-only songs (such as seven inch mixes and B-sides).

If I had my way, 'Substance' would also get a remastering and re-release, but there'd be an obvious clash of tracks with those contained on the other re-releases 2nd discs - such as B-side tracks like 'Procession' and 'Cries And Whispers' - which would now appear on the bonus disc of 'Movement'. What I'd do is keep the original 12 tracks on disc 1, but with the additional of putting the missing section from 'The Perfect Kiss' back in there to make it the complete 12" mix. The second disc could have a slightly modified running order so that there would be no "doubles" with what features on the other bonus discs. An additional 3rd disc could feature songs from that era (such as the 'Salvation' tracks), as well as featuring the extra B-sides that appeared on the cassette version but not on the CD due to running time limits).

Re-releasing 'Substance' with a slightly different 2nd disc and a brand-new 3rd CD would remove the necessity to feature all the 12" versions of the album tracks on their original album's respective 2nd discs (such as featuring 'Blue Monday' on disc 2 of 'Power, Corruption & Lies', or 'State Of The Nation' on CD2 of 'Brotherhood' - and 'The Perfect Kiss' on 'Low-life'). This would mean that what is many people's favourite New Order album (albeit though it is a collection) gets the remastering treatment. It would also mean that the second discs of all the other reissues don't get too clogged up with all the different 12" mixes and dub mixes - leaving more space for extra additional rare bits and bobs.

Anyway, based on that remit - which I hope makes sense - here's what I'd select to go on the extra discs of each re-release (and the new version of 'Substance'), in no definitive running order. I've not put enough tracks on each one to fill them up, as I'm assuming there'd also be a select few unreleased tracks to feature (such as the 7 inch edit of 'Vanishing Point' and full-length 'The Happy One' on 'Technique'):

Movement Plus

• Ceremony - original 7" version

• In A Lonely Place - 7" version

• Everything's Gone Green - 7" version

• Procession

• Cries And Whispers

• Mesh

• Temptation - original 7" version

• Hurt - 7" version

• Temptation - original 12" version

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Power, Corruption & Lies Plus

• Blue Monday - unreleased 1983 UK 7" edit

• The Beach - unreleased 1983 UK 7" edit

• Confusion - original 12" version

• Confused Beats

• Confusion - original 7" version

• Theives Like Us - 7" version

• Lonesome Tonight - 7" version

• Murder

• Theives Like Us (Instrumental Edit) - 7" version

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Low-life Plus

• The Perfect Kiss - Benelux 7" version

• The Kiss Of Death - 7" version

• Perfect Pit

• Sub-culture - full-length 12" version

• Sub-culture - 7" version

• Dub-vulture - 7" version

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Brotherhood Plus

• Shellshock - full-length 12" version

• State Of The Nation - 7" version

• Shame Of The Nation - 7" version

• Bizarre Love Triangle - 7" version

• Bizarre Dub Triangle - 7" version

• Bizarre Love Triangle (Stephen Hague Version)

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Substance Disc 1 - slightly altered track listing:

1. Ceremony - second 12" version

2. Everything's Gone Green - Benelux 12" version

3. Temptation - 1987 version

4. Blue Monday - 12" version

5. Confusion - 1987 version

6. Theives Like Us - 12" version

7. The Perfect Kiss - full-length 12" version

8. Sub-culture - edited 12" version

9. Shellshock - edited 12" version

10. State Of The Nation - 12" version

11. Bizarre Love Triangle - 12" version

12. True Faith - 12" version

(74:58)

Substance Disc 2 - slightly altered track listing:

1. In A Lonely Place - second 12" version

2. Hurt - full-length 12" version

3. The Beach - 12" version

4. Confused Instrumental

5. Lonesome Tonight - 12" version

6. Theives Like Us Instrumental - 12" version

7. The Kiss Of Death - 12" version

8. Dub-vulture - 12" version

9. Shellcock

10. Shame Of The Nation - 12" version

11. Bizarre Dub Triangle

(78:38)

Substance Plus

• 1963

• True Faith - 1987 7" version

• Evil Dust

• Paradise (Remix)

• Touched By The Hand Of God - 12" version

• Confusion Dub 1987

• Touched By The Hand Of Dub - 12" version

• True Faith (Remix 7 Inch)

• Salvation Theme

• Touched By The Hand Of God - original Salvation version

• Let's Go - original Salvation version

• Sputnik

• Skullcrusher

• Touched By The Hand Of God (Remix Version) - original Salvation dub version

• True Dub

(77:09)

Technique Plus

• Fine Time - 12" version

• Don't Do It

• Fine Line

• Round & Round - 7" version

• Best & Marsh - 7" version

• Round & Round - 12" version

• Best & Marsh - 12 version

• Round & Round (Edit) - US promo Technique edit

• Run 2

• Run 2 (Extended Version)

• MTO

• MTO (Minus Mix)

• World In Motion...

• World In Motion... (The B-Side)

• World In Motion... (The Carabinieri Mix)

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Well, that's how I'd do it, anyway, but with the running order jumbled around a bit to provide more variation so the mixes of the same songs don't all follow each other.

Are you listening London Records?

Hell, I'm just about to complete my degree, and have just finished a dissertation about album art, so if New Order/London want someone to do research, interviews and archiving for them - they only have to contact me!

Blimey - long post!

Andy

Took me ages to read through all that! What about Republic?

Originally posted by Slippy Took me ages to read through all that! What about Republic?

Most of the decent mixes are on 'The Rest Of', and the sound quality was pretty good back in 1993 anyway. About the only hard-to-find thing is the New Order mix of 'Vicious Circle'. There'd be no point doing a re-release and bonus CD just for that,when everything else is fairly easy to track down and there were only a couple of B-sides. Same thing naturally applies to 'Get Ready'.

Andy

I know everyone will have slightly different opinions on the various versions and how worthwhile it would be putting them on there, but would you be up for the idea of getting all five Factory studio albums plus Substance remastered and released with an extra disc? Some of that material features on other 'Best Of' collections, but to have them all together would make a nice little remastered package (if it retailed at the no higher a price than that of a single CD album).

What does everyone think - assuming the free space on each 'disc 2' was filled up with whatever relevent unreleased stuff they could find of master quality?

Andy

Originally posted by Mr Discography I know everyone will have slightly different opinions on the various versions and how worthwhile it would be putting them on there, but would you be up for the idea of getting all five Factory studio albums plus Substance remastered and released with an extra disc? Some of that material features on other 'Best Of' collections, but to have them all together would make a nice little remastered package (if it retailed at the no higher a price than that of a single CD album).What does everyone think - assuming the free space on each 'disc 2' was filled up with whatever relevent unreleased stuff they could find of master quality?Andy

If they rereleased one a month like they are doing with the ACR albums I think it would work!

Brilliant Andy. My original gripe was the update of the earlier albums and whilst we know of no other rare tracks available the old 7inch versions converted to an additional cd and MTO & Run 2 added to Technique cd2 etc,etc. Like you said it's hardly worth bothering with the material after Technique. I'd prefer your layout than the Best Of, Rest Of, International & Retro offerings.

If they did this I'd feel nothing short of exploited. Edits my arse!!!

Originally posted by Doctor Clayhead If they did this I'd feel nothing short of exploited. Edits my arse!!!

Then what would you want to see on it? The live material is mostly too poorly recorded (plus we know how most of their songs sound live anyway), and there aren't that many other unreleased songs to feature, by all accounts? Better to have a second disc with what has been vinyl-only up until now, than just the original albums released on their own again? It'd at least be nice to bung a CD into your car hi-fi or discman and get some of the old seven inch versions blasting out at last?

I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone not expecting everything to get released on CD, but hoping for the significant vinly-only stuff remastered. If you're not into the edits and stuff, then just stick with the studio albums - which you presumably already own?

What else is there to put on 'em?

Andy

Originally posted by Mr Discography > Originally posted by Slippy> Took me ages to read through all that! What about Republic?

Most of the decent mixes are on 'The Rest Of', and the sound quality was pretty good back in 1993 anyway. About the only hard-to-find thing is the New Order mix of 'Vicious Circle'. There'd be no point doing a re-release and bonus CD just for that,when everything else is fairly easy to track down and there were only a couple of B-sides. Same thing naturally applies to 'Get Ready'.

Andy

There are allegedly several different remixes of 'Republic' tracks in existence which have never seen the light of day. Young Offender for one. Not the most tantalising prospect in the world for sure, but I know there are many of us out there who'd pay for a remastered Republic with these lost tracks tacked on.

:\pimp3:

Oh, aye, don't get me wrong, I'd certainly buy a remastered Republic with extra material, but it doesn't seem as vital a purchase when most of its supporting singles were widely released on CD and consisted mostly of remixes most of us have anyway.

Makes you wonder though, if the Sly and Robbie 'Ruined In A Day' mix(es) was(were) deemed fit for release, how bad were the ones that weren't?!

Andy

New mixes of Times Change?

Originally posted by ShugZV© Andy son, you continue to amaze me - 10 out of 10 fer effort me ole portugese man of war. Do you ever get any WORK done though

More than you me ole skiveroonie SHUGZV...having a break from your fag,telephone and coffee breaks?:D

It's the original NOOL rogues' gallery around here with you two trading epithets...!

:\pimp3:

Originally posted by depthcharge There are allegedly several different remixes of 'Republic' tracks in existence which have never seen the light of day. Young Offender for one. Not the most tantalising prospect in the world for sure, but I know there are many of us out there who'd pay for a remastered Republic with these lost tracks tacked on.

And to quote a Warner US employee "there's a good reason why the unreleased remixes are unreleased"...

/TLV

Rare items will always remain rare and collectable, no matter if the songs on them become officially released. Pesonally I want as much of the rare versions as possible, weather these be live, or rare releases, commercially unavailiable versions, or even remixes. Through years of collecting and contacts here I have a fairly good collection except when it comes to live stuff. Ok if everybody has previously rare concerts then they obviously are no longer rare. But, why would anybody want to deprive a fellow fan of listening pleasure.

General unavailability is not an excuse for piracy !

That goes for the live tracks, though I don't know where that would leave "Love Juice".

Slightly different copyright laws regarding studio recordings and live recordings....

Maybe this was true in Italy once upon a time. I don't recall that US law discriminated with respect to the nature of the recording...and with live gigs you deal with not only the publisher, but the particular venue. Not familar with UK law (or arguably anything, since I'm not a legal eagle), but seeing stuff like http://www.riaa.com/issues/copyright/laws.asp, which states:

"The Federal Anti-Bootleg Statute {18 USC 2319A} prohibits the unauthorized recording, manufacture, distribution, or trafficking in sound recordings or videos of artists' live musical performances. Violators can be punished with up to 5 years in prison and $250,000 in fines. "

...makes me question whether "slightly different" matters very much, at least under US law.

New Order are not all that commercial crap like Elvis, Pet Shop boys, the Cure, the Beatles, the Beach Boys etc. They're not gonna do those double CD-packages with "bonus gems" and "demos". First it ruins the idea of perfectionist Factory releases and of New Order themselves. Like everyone points out here - is there a real rare stuff? Besides several mixes there's really nothing. Why should we pursue poor 7" mixes released on CD?

Originally posted by The Happy One > General unavailability is not an excuse for piracy !That goes for the live tracks, though I don't know where that would leave "Love Juice".> Slightly different copyright laws regarding studio recordings and live recordings....Maybe this was true in Italy once upon a time. I don't recall that US law discriminated with respect to the nature of the recording...and with live gigs you deal with not only the publisher, but the particular venue. Not familar with UK law (or arguably anything, since I'm not a legal eagle), but seeing stuff like http://www.riaa.com/issues/copyright/laws.asp, which states:"The Federal Anti-Bootleg Statute {18 USC 2319A} prohibits the unauthorized recording, manufacture, distribution, or trafficking in sound recordings or videos of artists' live musical performances. Violators can be punished with up to 5 years in prison and $250,000 in fines. "...makes me question whether "slightly different" matters very much, at least under US law.

US law counts for fuck all in this country!

A few things that may be of interest reference bootlegging:

http://btat.wagnerone.com/

http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/Documents/bootlegs/ver4.1/alt-music-bootlegs-faq-ch1.html

http://www.aacp.org.uk/news/archivearticle.html?id=31

Originally posted by LOng Tall Texan They're not gonna do those double CD-packages with "bonus gems" and "demos". First it ruins the idea of perfectionist Factory releases and of New Order themselves.?

What the hell was Disc 5 on Retro then? 'Elegia' full version was a "bonus gem", as was 'Temptation '98', the live 'Perfect Kiss' take, and the 'True Faith' remix. Furthermore, the 'Run Wild' original is a demo of sorts, so they do release things like that - as many bands do when they are well into their careers. More than anything, the addition of a Disc 5 to Retro proves that the stuff we talk of on here highlights a fanbase demand for a product, and influences what London Records decide to release.

Originally posted by LOng Tall Texan Like everyone points out here - is there a real rare stuff? Besides several mixes there's really nothing. Why should we pursue poor 7" mixes released on CD?

Not all the 7" mixes are "poor", and if you're a collector of New Order's material - as I suspect you're not - then you'll have an interest in getting the vinyl Factory releases remastered onto CD. I'd certainly welcome the reissue of the Factory albums with bonus material some time after the next album is released - it'd be a darn site better than another greatest hits compilation of what we already have with the new singles tagged on the end!

This thread is obviously talking about which rare stuff we'd like to see remastered, and that - on the whole - will be the vinyl-only releases. If you're not bothered about getting the old mixes released on CD, then surely you're already happy with just having all the New Order studio albums?

I remain convinced there'd be a demand for this, just as there have been with other artists when releasing similar packages. One reason I've been slowly buying the Pet Shop Boys reissues (despite already owning the original CDs) is that as well as the second disc having some interesting bonus material, Chris Heath's interviews in the generous 36 page booklet are so fascinating. There's one of 'Nightlife' coming out later this year, incidentally.

I'm affraid that New Order are commercial, and it'd be a nice touch if London could get their hands on the early stuff and bring it out again for us to hear. If not, then we'll all have to continue paying expensive prices on Ebay for them, and attempting to make half-decent copies onto CD-R to share with others.

Andy

It would be nice to listen to Senses without the first 1/2 seconds missed off, as is the case on my Movement cd. Are all the Movement cd's like that ?

I've a feeling it's like that on all versions - even the vinyl! Was never sure if it was intentional or a mistake!

Andy

Originally posted by Mr Discography I've a feeling it's like that on all versions - even the vinyl! Was never sure if it was intentional or a mistake!Andy

My original vinyl bought in '84 has the version intact and as the album ain't that long I wondered why on the cd, it was edited.

A mistake, it seems then! Now you come to mention it, aren't the first few beats missing from 'Truth' on Movement - it seems to jump in a bit into the middle of the first bar of drums. Dunno if that was just on the CD also?

Andy

Originally posted by Mr Discography A mistake, it seems then! Now you come to mention it, aren't the first few beats missing from 'Truth' on Movement - it seems to jump in a bit into the middle of the first bar of drums. Dunno if that was just on the CD also?Andy

My versions of Truth are ok. The US version I have also has the incomplete Senses on it.

I can't really tell myself. I don't have the vinyl Movement so I can't tell :\ohwell:

US law counts for fuck all in this country!

What an insightful statement.

That leads me to wonder whether it matters where a gig is aired, especially when the Net makes it harder to deal with borders...but the copyright stuff is a great way to kill the joy of discussing RARITIES...

--Sam

Originally posted by The Happy One > US law counts for fuck all in this country!

What an insightful statement.

That leads me to wonder whether it matters where a gig is aired, especially when the Net makes it harder to deal with borders...but the copyright stuff is a great way to kill the joy of discussing RARITIES...

--Sam

It was to the point :D

Originally posted by Slippy A few things that may be of interest reference bootlegging:

Although not at all related to this topic, here's an interesting link to a story on Yahoo News, http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=562&e=1&u=/ap/20040429/ap_on_hi_te/music_on_a_stick.

/TLV

Originally posted by TLV > Originally posted by Slippy> A few things that may be of interest reference bootlegging:

Although not at all related to this topic, here's an interesting link to a story on Yahoo News, http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=562&e=1&u=/ap/20040429/ap_on_hi_te/music_on_a_stick.

/TLV

Smaler than my MD recorder

Originally posted by Slippy ps. still after the Morel's Pink noise mix of True Faith - the Miami music conference version - EIL want £60!!

I think that the mix on that CD (I actually have it) is on the True Faith US promo CD - i.e. it's certainly not worth buying that CD for sixty quid! Okay, it does have the 'Confusion' video that you can play on your PC, but otherwise...

I'll have a check if anybody says anything different?

Cheers,

Nick ;)

I just want some NEW tracks.I am getting a little tired of all the old stuff.Time to move on.......... :p

Originally posted by Rocket Mick I just want so NEW tracks.I am getting a little tired of all the old stuff.Time to move on.......... :p

Fed up with New Order eh?

Originally posted by Nick King > Originally posted by Slippy> ps. still after the Morel's Pink noise mix of True Faith - the Miami music conference version - EIL want £60!!

I think that the mix on that CD (I actually have it) is on the True Faith US promo CD - i.e. it's certainly not worth buying that CD for sixty quid! Okay, it does have the 'Confusion' video that you can play on your PC, but otherwise...

I'll have a check if anybody says anything different?

Cheers,

Nick ;)

Nick - is it on both promo's? I know thre are 2 versions, I think 1 has more tracks (mine has 6), but not sure offhand if they repeat the mixes across both discs...

Originally posted by Slippy > Originally posted by Rocket Mick> I just want so NEW tracks.I am getting a little tired of all the old stuff.Time to move on.......... :p

Fed up with New Order eh?

I sometimes open the 'new order' drawer and simply don't know what to choose 'cos I've heard it all a hundred times over. Something new would be very welcome, whether to slag off or praise, whatever !!

Originally posted by Geri > Originally posted by Slippy> > > > Originally posted by Rocket Mick> > I just want so NEW tracks.I am getting a little tired of all the old stuff.Time to move on.......... :p>

Fed up with New Order eh?

I sometimes open the 'new order' drawer and simply don't know what to choose 'cos I've heard it all a hundred times over. Something new would be very welcome, whether to slag off or praise, whatever !!

I know the feeling actually. I used to have spates of not listening to New Order when I was younger to make it better when I did. The compilation CD in the car is really getting on my tits at the moment!

You could swap it for an ACR one.

Originally posted by Slippy > Originally posted by Rocket Mick> I just want so NEW tracks.I am getting a little tired of all the old stuff.Time to move on.......... :p

Fed up with New Order eh? No ...just hearing version after version of the same song..although slightly different can get a bit jaded.I also collect to own the different ARTWORK but again owning MOST stuff now it is only when a NEW NEW ORDER record is available that the thrill of both NEW track and NEW artwork starts again.I think that what i mean is i want some great NEW NEW ORDER soon.I still enjoy sending out the stuff though.At the moment i am trying to get a RUN 2 for one NOOL'er.I have been putting a little package together for him with some artwork from SAVILLE in it.Must remember to finish this off soon.I too stop listening to all NEW ORDER and JOY DIVISION for months on end to allow a CHILLING OUT period to occur.I have started to try and put a CHILL OUT compilation CD-R together for summer but have had little inspiration yet.So i am listening to other groups at the moment to make some FRESHNESS appear once i get back to NEW ORDER.... OH IT'S THE LAST TIME............. Rocket Mick

Originally posted by Rocket Mick > Originally posted by Slippy> > > > Originally posted by Rocket Mick> > I just want so NEW tracks.I am getting a little tired of all the old stuff.Time to move on.......... :p>

Fed up with New Order eh? No ...just hearing version after version of the same song..although slightly different can get a bit jaded.I also collect to own the different ARTWORK but again owning MOST stuff now it is only when a NEW NEW ORDER record is available that the thrill of both NEW track and NEW artwork starts again.I think that what i mean is i want some great NEW NEW ORDER soon.I still enjoy sending out the stuff though.At the moment i am trying to get a RUN 2 for one NOOL'er.I have been putting a little package together for him with some artwork from SAVILLE in it.Must remember to finish this off soon.I too stop listening to all NEW ORDER and JOY DIVISION for months on end to allow a CHILLING OUT period to occur.I have started to try and put a CHILL OUT compilation CD-R together for summer but have had little inspiration yet.So i am listening to other groups at the moment to make some FRESHNESS appear once i get back to NEW ORDER.... OH IT'S THE LAST TIME............. Rocket Mick This Chill out mate , would it be to enhance the ambience of THE YARROW BRIDGE beer garden, come eventide ? If so I'll pop up the A6 this summer and have a listen, if that's okay. Was in your areas finest ice-cream parlour t'other day, morrelo cherry thing, could have fed 3 people easy

Originally posted by Garymac > Originally posted by Rocket Mick> > > > Originally posted by Slippy> > > > > > > Originally posted by Rocket Mick> > > I just want so NEW tracks.I am getting a little tired of all the old stuff.Time to move on.......... :p> > >

Fed up with New Order eh? No ...just hearing version after version of the same song..although slightly different can get a bit jaded.I also collect to own the different ARTWORK but again owning MOST stuff now it is only when a NEW NEW ORDER record is available that the thrill of both NEW track and NEW artwork starts again.I think that what i mean is i want some great NEW NEW ORDER soon.I still enjoy sending out the stuff though.At the moment i am trying to get a RUN 2 for one NOOL'er.I have been putting a little package together for him with some artwork from SAVILLE in it.Must remember to finish this off soon.I too stop listening to all NEW ORDER and JOY DIVISION for months on end to allow a CHILLING OUT period to occur.I have started to try and put a CHILL OUT compilation CD-R together for summer but have had little inspiration yet.So i am listening to other groups at the moment to make some FRESHNESS appear once i get back to NEW ORDER.... OH IT'S THE LAST TIME............. Rocket Mick This Chill out mate , would it be to enhance the ambience of THE YARROW BRIDGE beer garden, come eventide ? If so I'll pop up the A6 this summer and have a listen, if that's okay. Was in your areas finest ice-cream parlour t'other day, morrelo cherry thing, could have fed 3 people easy Yes but i think it will be your round!

Originally posted by Rocket Mick > Originally posted by Slippy> > > > Originally posted by Rocket Mick> > I just want so NEW tracks.I am getting a little tired of all the old stuff.Time to move on.......... :p>

Fed up with New Order eh? No ...just hearing version after version of the same song..although slightly different can get a bit jaded.I also collect to own the different ARTWORK but again owning MOST stuff now it is only when a NEW NEW ORDER record is available that the thrill of both NEW track and NEW artwork starts again.I think that what i mean is i want some great NEW NEW ORDER soon.I still enjoy sending out the stuff though.At the moment i am trying to get a RUN 2 for one NOOL'er.I have been putting a little package together for him with some artwork from SAVILLE in it.Must remember to finish this off soon.I too stop listening to all NEW ORDER and JOY DIVISION for months on end to allow a CHILLING OUT period to occur.I have started to try and put a CHILL OUT compilation CD-R together for summer but have had little inspiration yet.So i am listening to other groups at the moment to make some FRESHNESS appear once i get back to NEW ORDER.... OH IT'S THE LAST TIME............. Rocket Mick

Rocket, leave my smoking man alone! You have been warned!! ;)

sorry

Yes but i think it will be your round!

Fair enough, but nowt of the top shelf, until half past six .

Originally posted by Mr Hibster > Originally posted by Nick King> I think that the mix on that CD (I actually have it) is on the True Faith US promo CD - i.e. it's certainly not worth buying that CD for sixty quid! Okay, it does have the 'Confusion' video that you can play on your PC, but otherwise...> > I'll have a check if anybody says anything different?

Nick - is it on both promo's? I know thre are 2 versions, I think 1 has more tracks (mine has 6), but not sure offhand if they repeat the mixes across both discs...

A quick check at the New Order Discography reveals:

CDR: US 2001 (Warner/Reprise) [promo] 8:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise mix) 4:29 True Faith (morel's pink noise mix edit) 7:22 True Faith (morel's pink noise "calling shifty dub mix") 6:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise "my fear of dub mix") 6:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise "i've taken too much dub" mix)

CDR: US 2001 (Warner/Reprise) [promo] ["Philip Steir Re-Order Mix"] True Faith (vocal up) True Faith (video edit)

CD: US 2001 (Qwest/Reprise PRO-CD-100663) [promo]

CDR: US 2001 (Warner/Reprise) [promo] 5:44 True Faith (philip steir edit) 8:12 True Faith (philip re-order mix) 8:14 True Faith (philip steir dub) 8:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise club mix) 8:22 True Faith (morel's extra dub) 7:22 True Faith (morel's calling shifty dub)

/TLV

Originally posted by TLV > Originally posted by Mr Hibster > Originally posted by Nick King> I think that the mix on that CD (I actually have it) is on the True Faith US promo CD - i.e. it's certainly not worth buying that CD for sixty quid! Okay, it does have the 'Confusion' video that you can play on your PC, but otherwise...> > I'll have a check if anybody says anything different?

Nick - is it on both promo's? I know thre are 2 versions, I think 1 has more tracks (mine has 6), but not sure offhand if they repeat the mixes across both discs...

A quick check at the New Order Discography reveals:

CDR: US 2001 (Warner/Reprise) [promo] 8:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise mix) 4:29 True Faith (morel's pink noise mix edit) 7:22 True Faith (morel's pink noise "calling shifty dub mix") 6:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise "my fear of dub mix") 6:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise "i've taken too much dub" mix)

CDR: US 2001 (Warner/Reprise) [promo] ["Philip Steir Re-Order Mix"] True Faith (vocal up) True Faith (video edit)

CD: US 2001 (Qwest/Reprise PRO-CD-100663) [promo]

CDR: US 2001 (Warner/Reprise) [promo] 5:44 True Faith (philip steir edit) 8:12 True Faith (philip re-order mix) 8:14 True Faith (philip steir dub) 8:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise club mix) 8:22 True Faith (morel's extra dub) 7:22 True Faith (morel's calling shifty dub)

/TLV

That US CDR promo looks real appealing but CDR promos are always a rip off!

Who was it who said CDRs only have a limited life span??

Originally posted by Slippy That US CDR promo looks real appealing but CDR promos are always a rip off!Who was it who said CDRs only have a limited life span??

I think I was part of that discussion - both here and on Ceremony. Search the archives. Basically, CDRs (and CDs) don't last forever because of chemical degradation. They do expect the lifetime to be at lesat a couple of decades.

/TLV

Originally posted by TLV > Originally posted by Slippy> That US CDR promo looks real appealing but CDR promos are always a rip off!> > Who was it who said CDRs only have a limited life span??

I think I was part of that discussion - both here and on Ceremony. Search the archives. Basically, CDRs (and CDs) don't last forever because of chemical degradation. They do expect the lifetime to be at lesat a couple of decades.

/TLV That's a revelation for me! Never been aware of that. They always say on backcovers - a lifetime warranty, i.e. until my death, right?

Originally posted by TLV > Originally posted by Slippy> That US CDR promo looks real appealing but CDR promos are always a rip off!> > Who was it who said CDRs only have a limited life span??

I think I was part of that discussion - both here and on Ceremony. Search the archives. Basically, CDRs (and CDs) don't last forever because of chemical degradation. They do expect the lifetime to be at lesat a couple of decades.

/TLV

Does that mean I have to copy my CDs every 20 years to keep em playing. Sounds awful, I am thinking vinyl was the superior medium now!

You could just re-buy them! Not that the music industry think you should have to fork out time and time again for the same stuff. That would be ridiculous!

Originally posted by TLV > Originally posted by Slippy> That US CDR promo looks real appealing but CDR promos are always a rip off!> > Who was it who said CDRs only have a limited life span??

I think I was part of that discussion - both here and on Ceremony. Search the archives. Basically, CDRs (and CDs) don't last forever because of chemical degradation. They do expect the lifetime to be at lesat a couple of decades.

/TLV

even worse....I can't seem to import song 2 of said 6 track cdr promo (re-order mix) into my mp3 player...even though it plays just fine on my pc and I can burn cds of it...and of course there is no problem importing the other 5 ????

Originally posted by Slippy **> Originally posted by TLV> > > > Originally posted by Mr Hib>**ster > Originally posted by Nick King> I think that the mix on that CD (I actually have it) is on the True Faith US promo CD - i.e. it's certainly not worth buying that CD for sixty quid! Okay, it does have the 'Confusion' video that you can play on your PC, but otherwise...> > I'll have a check if anybody says anything different?

Nick - is it on both promo's? I know thre are 2 versions, I think 1 has more tracks (mine has 6), but not sure offhand if they repeat the mixes across both discs...

A quick check at the New Order Discography reveals:

CDR: US 2001 (Warner/Reprise) [promo] 8:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise mix) 4:29 True Faith (morel's pink noise mix edit) 7:22 True Faith (morel's pink noise "calling shifty dub mix") 6:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise "my fear of dub mix") 6:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise "i've taken too much dub" mix)

CDR: US 2001 (Warner/Reprise) [promo] ["Philip Steir Re-Order Mix"] True Faith (vocal up) True Faith (video edit)

CD: US 2001 (Qwest/Reprise PRO-CD-100663) [promo]

CDR: US 2001 (Warner/Reprise) [promo] 5:44 True Faith (philip steir edit) 8:12 True Faith (philip re-order mix) 8:14 True Faith (philip steir dub) 8:50 True Faith (morel's pink noise club mix) 8:22 True Faith (morel's extra dub) 7:22 True Faith (morel's calling shifty dub)

/TLV

That US CDR promo looks real appealing but CDR promos are always a rip off!

Who was it who said CDRs only have a limited life span??

The track on 'Just Beat 03' is simply labelled 'Pink Noise Mix', and runs for 8:50 - i.e. also called "Morel's Pink Noise Club Mix", which is on both the CD-R or the CD promo.

You should be able to get the US promo CD single (i.e. not the CD-R one) for less than 60 quid?

l8rs,

Nick ;)

Originally posted by SP1 You could just re-buy them!

there's quite a few I wouldn't be able to buy anywhere ... that's the problem with rarities ;)

Originally posted by Slippy Does that mean I have to copy my CDs every 20 years to keep em playing. Sounds awful, I am thinking vinyl was the superior medium now!

How often is up to you. Since CDs has only been around since the early/mid-80's, noone knows for sure how long they'll last. Manufacturers do "rapid-aging" tests and claim life-spans of up to 100 years (speaking from memory). What probably will kill a CD sooner is the mechanical degradation (scratches etc.)

Vinyl is not perfect either. If they are not stored right they start to become misshaped. And the grooves wear out after repeated playing.

Re-buying? Sure, why not? How often do you play your cassettes these days? Or 8-Track? :D

For your rarities: back them up.

/TLV

Back them up?? They are hardly rare if they are copies!

It seems CDs will be far less collectible that vinyl for those who like rarities.

It has just occured to me that my earliest CDs will be coming to that 20-year milestone in a couple of years - YIKES!

As has been said by others: a remastered double CD of the vinyl only stuff (7" edits would be very nice). Plus a proper release of Western Works from the master would be even nicer. However: stuff that's been released on CD already is still, in the main, available. Seek and ye shall find, or something like that.

Do we really want all the 7" edits? I always thought the edits were really crap when I first started listening to NO!

Originally posted by Slippy Do we really want all the 7" edits? I always thought the edits were really crap when I first started listening to NO!

This thread is going Round & Round in (Vicious) Circles... The editing is poor on some 7 inches, and often entire verses are removed, but to me it's all part of the band's catalogue (and fancy stuff like Pro Tools wasn't around back then), and they are artefacts I'd like to see remastered and restored to accompany new versions of the Factory albums.

Buying six special edition CD releases beats spending decades of your life hunting down crackly old seven inches in record shops and on the Internet, as I have done!

Of course, with stuff like the Temptation 7" and the original Ceremony, there are completely different recordings of the tunes that have never seen the digital light of day, and they would be important supporting material for 'Movement'.

All theoretical, of course, as the masters could still be in a Manchester land-fill site after Factory's demise.

Anyone with any inside info on whether London Records actually have any old Factory master tapes ready to potentially tweak and re-release?

Andy

Originally posted by Slippy Do we really want all the 7" edits? I always thought the edits were really crap when I first started listening to NO!

Anyway, no one has yet answered my question of what would you like to see on each album's bonus disc if you don't want the seven inch mixes and B-sides? Live stuff is too shaky or dodgily recorded to feature, and there isn't much unreleased stuff, by all accounts - so what would you have London put on the Disc Two's?

Andy

The Western Works demos should definitely be on any Movement bonus disc! - is there a master of this or only the shoddy recordings I have??

PCL, What would you put on? The Confusion 12" mixes.

LL, TPK and Sub-culture 12" ( ) mixes.

Brotherhood would HAVE to have Evil Dust!!

london do have what there is of the factory recordings but stuff is missing (see the interview in last month's 'sound on sound' with roger lyons for an example, he said the master for BM was missing when he tried to get hold of it). whatever they still had is in the london 'vault'

Originally posted by johnny james london do have what there is of the factory recordings but stuff is missing (see the interview in last month's 'sound on sound' with roger lyons for an example, he said the master for BM was missing when he tried to get hold of it).whatever they still had is in the london 'vault'

So was EVERYTHING passed from Factory to London or did Tony Wilson keep his mits on any?

Originally posted by johnny james london do have what there is of the factory recordings but stuff is missing (see the interview in last month's 'sound on sound' with roger lyons for an example, he said the master for BM was missing when he tried to get hold of it).whatever they still had is in the london 'vault'

Interesting - just looked up this article at Sound on Sound's website, but they wanted me to subscribe to read it, and couldn't be arsed to spend even more money online!

What was the gist of it? Surely this is referring to the multi-track studio master tape, not the final stereo mixdown tape (which is in a bit of a state anyway, judging on the 'International' version's sound quality). I recall that New Order sampled bits from the Blue Monday multi-track master for use during the 'Get Ready' tour?

Andy

Rare? The following guide seems to suggest that nothing is worth that much! (except coloured PCL of course!)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/kennethdrury/neworder-pg.htm

Note the collectability rating - not very high eh!

Originally posted by Slippy Rare? The following guide seems to suggest that nothing is worth that much! (except coloured PCL of course!)http://homepage.ntlworld.com/kennethdrury/neworder-pg.htmNote the collectability rating - not very high eh!

That Ken Drury collectability rating of 2 isnt very realistic, as New Order items on eBay fill 20 odd pages and most of the auction items have bids on them. In MHO New Order are at least a 3 maybe higher and Joy Division 4 or 5. Theres a conspiracy to undervalue said bands work, I need a drink

Don't listen to him!

Interesting - just looked up this article at Sound on Sound's website, but they wanted me to subscribe to read it, and couldn't be arsed to spend even more money online!

What was the gist of it? Surely this is referring to the multi-track studio master tape, not the final stereo mixdown tape (which is in a bit of a state anyway, judging on the 'International' version's sound quality). I recall that New Order sampled bits from the Blue Monday multi-track master for use during the 'Get Ready' tour?

yes it was the multitrack he was after as he wanted to sample bits for the last batch of tours, he found that quincy jones still had a copy of it for his '88 remix so that's where he aquired it in the end.

Originally posted by johnny james > Interesting - just looked up this article at Sound on Sound's website, but they wanted me to subscribe to read it, and couldn't be arsed to spend even more money online!> > What was the gist of it? Surely this is referring to the multi-track studio master tape, not the final stereo mixdown tape (which is in a bit of a state anyway, judging on the 'International' version's sound quality). I recall that New Order sampled bits from the Blue Monday multi-track master for use during the 'Get Ready' tour?yes it was the multitrack he was after as he wanted to sample bits for the last batch of tours, he found that quincy jones still had a copy of it for his '88 remix so that's where he aquired it in the end.

Hmmm. I wonder how much stuff Quincy Jones has his mits on too! Maybe different Confusion mixes??

I cannot believe AHW has nothing?!

Actually just one CD of rarities wouldn't harm! :D