Rarities - do we want/need them?

I was pondering on the fact that many NOOLers would like a rarities CD. The one that most people thought should have been Retro!

I personally think rare should remain rare. Anything that has had an official release at some point is still feasible to get so why would we want to destroy their collectability by releasing it all? By all means release everything that hasn't had a release.

ps. still after the Morel's Pink noise mix of True Faith - the Miami music conference version - EIL want £60!!

It's the "have's and have not's" though, isn't it ? Those who already have the "rare" releases may want them to stay collectable, whereas those who don't have them may want a rarities compilation so as to complete their collection.

I know that I want to get the last few live recordings I haven't been able to trace yet, as do many other people on here. When I do get them though, they will be made available to those fellow travellers for whom the last 25 years have been spent collecting every gig possible.

Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.

Originally posted by Casey Ryback Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.

Hmmm - Tindersticks (best British band of the last decade, fact fans!) are doing the same thing, and although the bonus rarities CDs are tempting, I'm feeling pretty resentful that I've got to fork out for a bunch of albums I've already bought. If New Order re-released them at, say, £7-8 a pop it'd be OK, but I can't see that happening somehow....

Originally posted by Casey Ryback Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.

But there aren't the bonus tracks in existence.....it's all out there already. You surely don't want Blue Monday, The Beach and Confusion tagged onto Power Corruption and Lies do you ?

Elvis Costello has the right idea, digital re-mastering of the old albums to CD, with a bonus live disc of the same tracks from that era. Some fantastic live stuff. Difference being he is competent live !

It would be very pricey for us buyers I agree but it would be nice to hear say the original 7inch Temptation or Movement say in remastered format as sound quality has improved somewhat. Someone mentioned the Thieves quality on International, the remaster did it justice.

Originally posted by Detweiler 3.63 > Originally posted by Casey Ryback> Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.

But there aren't the bonus tracks in existence.....it's all out there already. You surely don't want Blue Monday, The Beach and Confusion tagged onto Power Corruption and Lies do you ?

A project like what the PSB's did. The original album with an additional cd of singles, live etc. My version of PC&L has BM and The Beach already on it. Confusion obviously wouldn't work I agree.

Neworder are far too lazy / busy (delete as appropriate ) to do something like this, lets just hope the album's near complete and we get a few gigs this year

I'll drink to that.

Echo & the Bunneymen have re-mastered there albums with bonus tracks, 12" versions, live tracks, demo versions and include a nice glossy booklet in each album. It works, because the extra content makes each album feel new again.

The Go-Betweens, best aussie band.......er ever, have released the first few albums with bonus CDs. they are doing the rest this year. I don't know, it just seems like an excuse to sell the bloody albums again to us sad buggers who've already paid for the tape/record, cd, dvd, singles, limited singles and cds, remastered versions, imported albums with alternative covers and so on.......

I suppose if they come out though I'll buy them so.....

Cheers Jon

Id be hppy to see the vinyl only stuff released on CD. other than that just the videos released as DVD. Not bothered about 2001 type remixes of 80s tracks,after all they arent really even New Order just Barneys voice.

...and how about 'International 2', which was initialized by Negative One ?...

Originally posted by The Saviour ...and how about 'International 2', which was initialized by Negative One ?...

Illegal. Has he paid the band all the royalties they would be due from that production ?

Originally posted by Detweiler 3.63 > Originally posted by The Saviour> ...and how about 'International 2', which was initialized by Negative One ?...

Illegal. Has he paid the band all the royalties they would be due from that production ?

...yes it's illegal, but be sure, I would pay for a collection of singles, b-sides and other stuff...

...by the way - finally, I got this item...

Originally posted by Casey Ryback > Originally posted by Detweiler 3.63> > > > Originally posted by Casey Ryback> > Each individual album re-mastered and packaged with a separate cd of rarities or b-sides etc recorded at the time of the chosen LP would be nice. I think the time has come to update the older albums anyway.>

But there aren't the bonus tracks in existence.....it's all out there already. You surely don't want Blue Monday, The Beach and Confusion tagged onto Power Corruption and Lies do you ?

A project like what the PSB's did. The original album with an additional cd of singles, live etc. My version of PC&L has BM and The Beach already on it. Confusion obviously wouldn't work I agree.

Great idea, and one that I've been wondering about for a while... Some new reworkings would be wicked! but I can't see that happening

well tbh what rare stuff is there?. i mean lets face it new order are such a bunch of lazy twats that nearly every album has been a what u hear is what u get deal. i can only think of a handfull of tracks that are rare ect and by that i mean 3-4 max and thats after a 23 year career. there is one track ive seen mentioned a few times albeit a joy div track called "in dedication" which i have never heard and noe has anyone here otherwise it would be available in some form or another,but i remember it being mentioned in nme a few times. another hooky vault gem me wonders??? :\ohwell:

Originally posted by Slippy ps. still after the Morel's Pink noise mix of True Faith - the Miami music conference version - EIL want £60!!

You should be able to get one of the US CD promos for less than that.

Are there really that many rarities left (as in rare tracks, not rare issues) that would be listenable on a CD? Sure, it'd be nice to have some of the 7" versions or Run 2 on CD, but who listens to obscure remix #43 of True Faith?

No, give the videos re-released on DVD. Now.

/TLV

Originally posted by Jonathan Evans The Go-Betweens, best aussie band.......er ever, have released the first few albums with bonus CDs. they are doing the rest this year. I don't know, it just seems like an excuse to sell the bloody albums again to us sad buggers who've already paid for the tape/record, cd, dvd, singles, limited singles and cds, remastered versions, imported albums with alternative covers and so on.......I suppose if they come out though I'll buy them so.....CheersJon

That's been my concern as well, as I'm not really up to buying the same "album" 4 or 5 times. With NO, I always stayed with the US/UK releases, so it wasn't too bad with them.

Seeing as how I kept all my vinyl, I didn't rush out and buy all of the stuff on CD when it came out, unless there was something extra to draw me in, which is why I picked up on some of those Elvis Costello releases that have been mentioned; those are very nice things indeed. Most of the Bunnymen reissues are full of stuff I already had, but seeing as I didn't buy those CDs at first, it's nice to have all of those extra tracks together in one place.

Currently, The Fall reissues of Witch Trials and Dragnet are just as great to have, especially to those over here who couldn't get ahold of some of the extra material on the bonus side, with apparently better sound than the first CDs that appeared, or so I've been led to believe, which were mastered from vinyl copies of the album.

Yeah, The Cure's also doing the whole remastered originals plus bonus disc of rarities and other stuff. It'd be great to see New Order do the same...much better than RETRO! :barf:

Originally posted by mike powell well tbh what rare stuff is there?.i mean lets face it new order are such a bunch of lazy twats that nearly every album has been a what u hear is what u get deal.

Exactly right. The way some people go on around here you'd think there was a huge number of unheard songs locked away just waiting to be unleashed. Simply. Not. True.

Like many on here, I've compiled my own "rarities" disc, which currently occupies two 90-minute discs. Mainly rips from vinyl, tape and VHS supplemented with the odd different mix here and there. All officially released stuff. The only "unusual" tracks on there are the Let's Go Demo and The Happy One which are unreleased. But not what I'd call particularly rare.

I would like to bring to the attention of everyone the ACR package:

http://www.souljazzrecords.co.uk/early.htm

The first CD is effectively a greatest hits compilation, but the second disc is superb. The All Night Party 7" on CD, Peel Session material, obscure stuff from the Sir Horatio 12". Is this what we want from New Order?

Illegal. Has he paid the band all the royalties they would be due from that production?

I'm sure he'd like to, but (1) these aren't being sold (2) everybody buying one probably owns most if not all the albums/singles where the songs appear, or would if some of the stuff (Ceremony 7") was still in print (3) folks generally have the wherewithal to find MP3s of what they don't have and isn't available for purchase, and not just from Floyd. Not really much worse than the umpteenth live version of Blue Monday or Temptation, and in the spirit of announcing that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, one can also ask for all the royalties due for the 500 or so boots in your possession. :)

Originally posted by The Happy One > Illegal. Has he paid the band all the royalties they would be due from that production?I'm sure he'd like to, but (1) these aren't being sold (2) everybody buying one probably owns most if not all the albums/singles where the songs appear, or would if some of the stuff (Ceremony 7") was still in print (3) folks generally have the wherewithal to find MP3s of what they don't have and isn't available for purchase, and not just from Floyd. Not really much worse than the umpteenth live version of Blue Monday or Temptation, and in the spirit of announcing that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, one can also ask for all the royalties due for the 500 or so boots in your possession. :)

General unavailability is not an excuse for piracy !

Slightly different copyright laws regarding studio recordings and live recordings.....

Originally posted by mike powell well tbh what rare stuff is there?.i mean lets face it new order are such a bunch of lazy twats that nearly every album has been a what u hear is what u get deal.i can only think of a handfull of tracks that are rare ect and by that i mean 3-4 max and thats after a 23 year career.there is one track ive seen mentioned a few times albeit a joy div track called "in dedication" which i have never heard and noe has anyone here otherwise it would be available in some form or another,but i remember it being mentioned in nme a few times.another hooky vault gem me wonders??? :\ohwell:

Well, exactly. And if there are half-finished tracks somehwere in the alleged treasure trove of "Hooky's vault", would you really want to have to pay to hear them? Believe me, if the band think their stuff is sub-standard enough to be discarded I think I'll trust their judgement!!!

Okay, what we have here is a confliciton between those that basically want all the stuff that's only been released on vinyl with those that want to see demo versions or live tracks on a theoretical "second disc". What we have to assume, of course, is that: (a) all the master tapes still exist since the Factory days, (b) the live and demo songs are of releasable quality, and (c) the band would actually approve of some of the old material getting a re-release - especially when we've all read stories about how Barney doesn't want the original 'Ceremony' re-released, for example.

Personally, aside from the recent live DVD releases, some of the stuff on disc four of 'Retro' and 'Electronic Ecstasy', I find the New Order live archive of recordings of little interest due to either the sound quality or the sometimes shaky performances. What with 'Retro' and the two DVDs, I think I have enough live stuff, thank you very much.

As for unreleased gems, well, we all know that New Order's recording work is often scarce, so I doubt there is very much of master-quality available to feature, other than things like 'The Happy One' and other 'Making Out' tracks, perhaps a few slightly different single edits and the otherwise unreleased 'Vanishing Point' single and mixes that were never released. Of course, there could be a few surprises hidden away in the vaults.

Ideally, I'd love to see the Factory albums re-released, with an extra disc of vinyl-only tracks made by the band (not dodgy DJ remixes) - as the Pet Shop Boys did so succesfully. I think the thing to remember here, is that when you look at the worldwide releases of New Order's singles, there are so many different edits and mixes, that it would be virtually impossible to make (and expensive to buy) any exhaustive CD collection of the whole lot. Most of the rare releases I have got hold of have been using various Internet shops and auction sites over the last couple of years, and I quite like having some really exclusive versions of tracks that won't ever make it onto CD. There's enough resources online to track down the rare mixes, as my New Order track list will testify.

I'd be happy with all the Factory albums being remastered (long overdue, given the improvement in mastering techniques these days) with the tracklistings of the original vinyl releases (so no 'Blue Monday'or 'The Beach' on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' and no 'State of the Nation' on 'Brotherhood') and a second disc with all the significant vinyl-only songs (such as seven inch mixes and B-sides).

If I had my way, 'Substance' would also get a remastering and re-release, but there'd be an obvious clash of tracks with those contained on the other re-releases 2nd discs - such as B-side tracks like 'Procession' and 'Cries And Whispers' - which would now appear on the bonus disc of 'Movement'. What I'd do is keep the original 12 tracks on disc 1, but with the additional of putting the missing section from 'The Perfect Kiss' back in there to make it the complete 12" mix. The second disc could have a slightly modified running order so that there would be no "doubles" with what features on the other bonus discs. An additional 3rd disc could feature songs from that era (such as the 'Salvation' tracks), as well as featuring the extra B-sides that appeared on the cassette version but not on the CD due to running time limits).

Re-releasing 'Substance' with a slightly different 2nd disc and a brand-new 3rd CD would remove the necessity to feature all the 12" versions of the album tracks on their original album's respective 2nd discs (such as featuring 'Blue Monday' on disc 2 of 'Power, Corruption & Lies', or 'State Of The Nation' on CD2 of 'Brotherhood' - and 'The Perfect Kiss' on 'Low-life'). This would mean that what is many people's favourite New Order album (albeit though it is a collection) gets the remastering treatment. It would also mean that the second discs of all the other reissues don't get too clogged up with all the different 12" mixes and dub mixes - leaving more space for extra additional rare bits and bobs.

Anyway, based on that remit - which I hope makes sense - here's what I'd select to go on the extra discs of each re-release (and the new version of 'Substance'), in no definitive running order. I've not put enough tracks on each one to fill them up, as I'm assuming there'd also be a select few unreleased tracks to feature (such as the 7 inch edit of 'Vanishing Point' and full-length 'The Happy One' on 'Technique'):

Movement Plus

• Ceremony - original 7" version

• In A Lonely Place - 7" version

• Everything's Gone Green - 7" version

• Procession

• Cries And Whispers

• Mesh

• Temptation - original 7" version

• Hurt - 7" version

• Temptation - original 12" version

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Power, Corruption & Lies Plus

• Blue Monday - unreleased 1983 UK 7" edit

• The Beach - unreleased 1983 UK 7" edit

• Confusion - original 12" version

• Confused Beats

• Confusion - original 7" version

• Theives Like Us - 7" version

• Lonesome Tonight - 7" version

• Murder

• Theives Like Us (Instrumental Edit) - 7" version

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Low-life Plus

• The Perfect Kiss - Benelux 7" version

• The Kiss Of Death - 7" version

• Perfect Pit

• Sub-culture - full-length 12" version

• Sub-culture - 7" version

• Dub-vulture - 7" version

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Brotherhood Plus

• Shellshock - full-length 12" version

• State Of The Nation - 7" version

• Shame Of The Nation - 7" version

• Bizarre Love Triangle - 7" version

• Bizarre Dub Triangle - 7" version

• Bizarre Love Triangle (Stephen Hague Version)

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Substance Disc 1 - slightly altered track listing:

1. Ceremony - second 12" version

2. Everything's Gone Green - Benelux 12" version

3. Temptation - 1987 version

4. Blue Monday - 12" version

5. Confusion - 1987 version

6. Theives Like Us - 12" version

7. The Perfect Kiss - full-length 12" version

8. Sub-culture - edited 12" version

9. Shellshock - edited 12" version

10. State Of The Nation - 12" version

11. Bizarre Love Triangle - 12" version

12. True Faith - 12" version

(74:58)

Substance Disc 2 - slightly altered track listing:

1. In A Lonely Place - second 12" version

2. Hurt - full-length 12" version

3. The Beach - 12" version

4. Confused Instrumental

5. Lonesome Tonight - 12" version

6. Theives Like Us Instrumental - 12" version

7. The Kiss Of Death - 12" version

8. Dub-vulture - 12" version

9. Shellcock

10. Shame Of The Nation - 12" version

11. Bizarre Dub Triangle

(78:38)

Substance Plus

• 1963

• True Faith - 1987 7" version

• Evil Dust

• Paradise (Remix)

• Touched By The Hand Of God - 12" version

• Confusion Dub 1987

• Touched By The Hand Of Dub - 12" version

• True Faith (Remix 7 Inch)

• Salvation Theme

• Touched By The Hand Of God - original Salvation version

• Let's Go - original Salvation version

• Sputnik

• Skullcrusher

• Touched By The Hand Of God (Remix Version) - original Salvation dub version

• True Dub

(77:09)

Technique Plus

• Fine Time - 12" version

• Don't Do It

• Fine Line

• Round & Round - 7" version

• Best & Marsh - 7" version

• Round & Round - 12" version

• Best & Marsh - 12 version

• Round & Round (Edit) - US promo Technique edit

• Run 2

• Run 2 (Extended Version)

• MTO

• MTO (Minus Mix)

• World In Motion...

• World In Motion... (The B-Side)

• World In Motion... (The Carabinieri Mix)

Plus further unknown/unreleased tracks.

Well, that's how I'd do it, anyway, but with the running order jumbled around a bit to provide more variation so the mixes of the same songs don't all follow each other.

Are you listening London Records?

Hell, I'm just about to complete my degree, and have just finished a dissertation about album art, so if New Order/London want someone to do research, interviews and archiving for them - they only have to contact me!

Blimey - long post!

Andy

Took me ages to read through all that! What about Republic?

Originally posted by Slippy Took me ages to read through all that! What about Republic?

Most of the decent mixes are on 'The Rest Of', and the sound quality was pretty good back in 1993 anyway. About the only hard-to-find thing is the New Order mix of 'Vicious Circle'. There'd be no point doing a re-release and bonus CD just for that,when everything else is fairly easy to track down and there were only a couple of B-sides. Same thing naturally applies to 'Get Ready'.

Andy

I know everyone will have slightly different opinions on the various versions and how worthwhile it would be putting them on there, but would you be up for the idea of getting all five Factory studio albums plus Substance remastered and released with an extra disc? Some of that material features on other 'Best Of' collections, but to have them all together would make a nice little remastered package (if it retailed at the no higher a price than that of a single CD album).

What does everyone think - assuming the free space on each 'disc 2' was filled up with whatever relevent unreleased stuff they could find of master quality?

Andy