The Great Long-Lost First Recording by New Order!

I'm sure there are lots of Joy Division/New Order fans out there who don't know about 'HAYSTACK' by KEVIN HEWICK & NEW ORDER - the track recorded at the first studio session following Ian's death.

After being unavailable for 20-odd years it's in the stores again on Kevin Hewick's 'TENDER BRUISES & SCARS: THE COMPLETE FACTORY & CHERRY RED STUDIO RECORDINGS'. (A brilliant collection by the way.)

There's lots of fascinating stuff about the track, the session, the Factory experiences etc on Kevin's website at http://www.kevinhewick.com

Make sure you check out his message board for info about free Hewick mp3 downloads, his latest gigs and a whole stack of wonderful ramblings/insights. (Better still, leave him a message. He's fantastic at wildly enthusiastic message-board replies!)

Well thank you Gary, but

a) it's not great b) it's not long-lost c) it's not really New Order, rather the three surviving members of Joy Division, none of whom wanted to be there or who took it too seriously !

Kevin's a member on here, and has been known to make long rambling overenthusiastic responses at times, but declined the opportunity to record a cover for the Community project.

Thought it was the Western Works remastered for a minute.:\ohwell:

yeah, very disappointing isn't it Casey, can't see Duncan anymore- what've you done with him

Originally posted by Geri yeah, very disappointing isn't it Casey, can't see Duncan anymore- what've you done with him

Maybe a new one for the new season, new sponsors and all that.:)

Thanks 'Detweiler'

What can I say but..

A) It is a great song, if not a great recording. Lyrically and vocally in a class above anything Barney has ever mustered. (NO, of course, are not really about lyrics and vocals. Their magic has always been in the moodiness of the textures they create.) B) If you don't count only previously being available on a limited-run Belgian compilation import back in the mid-80s as 'long-lost' then I don't know what is! C) Sorry. But as credited on the vinyl and CD version of 'From Brussels With Love', it is officially credited to KEVIN HEWICK & NEW ORDER. The undeniable first post-JD recording whether that makes the 'official' band history/discography tidy or not and whether the band enjoyed the experience or not. (I'm sure they have much bigger regrets. Like that godawful England World Cup song for starters, surely!) Anyway...it happened...and could've been much more significant. Rumour has it that Tony Wilson was actually treating this as an audition for Kevin and had a notion of him becoming New Order's vocalist. D) Did Kevin really decline an invitation to contribute a cover? I'm amazed. I'd ave thought he'd have been honoured to be part of the project. I must email him.

Kev's a true original, is scandalously unpublicised and needs whatever attention can be steered his way. Support Your Local ex-Factory Workers, comrades!

Originally posted by gary knight Thanks 'Detweiler'What can I say but..A) It is a great song, if not a great recording. Lyrically and vocally in a class above anything Barney has ever mustered. (NO, of course, are not really about lyrics and vocals. Their magic has always been in the moodiness of the textures they create.)B) If you don't count only previously being available on a limited-run Belgian compilation import back in the mid-80s as 'long-lost' then I don't know what is!C) Sorry. But as credited on the vinyl and CD version of 'From Brussels With Love', it is officially credited to KEVIN HEWICK & NEW ORDER. The undeniable first post-JD recording whether that makes the 'official' band history/discography tidy or not and whether the band enjoyed the experience or not. (I'm sure they have much bigger regrets. Like that godawful England World Cup song for starters, surely!) Anyway...it happened...and could've been much more significant. Rumour has it that Tony Wilson was actually treating this as an audition for Kevin and had a notion of him becoming New Order's vocalist. D) Did Kevin really decline an invitation to contribute a cover? I'm amazed. I'd ave thought he'd have been honoured to be part of the project. I must email him.Kev's a true original, is scandalously unpublicised and needs whatever attention can be steered his way. Support Your Local ex-Factory Workers, comrades!

Sorry, but it isn't a great song, it isn't even a particularly good one. It doesn't matter who wrote the words or played on the recording, it's simply not a very good song.

An MP3 of the song has been freely available on this and other New Order sites for many years, so anyone who wants to listen to complete their collection has been able to do so at their leisure. That's what I meant by not long-lost.

The Crepuscule bods wrote that sleeve detail, not the band or a band representative. The name wasn't decided on until July/August 1980, and they could hardly credit it to Joy Division or the "no names", could they ?

It's not a rumour about Wilson wanting Kevin to audition for the new vocalist. It's 100% true. The band had other ideas, and refused to even speak to Kevin in the studio after a while. Bernard spent half the session playing the riff to the Buzzcock's "Boredom" instead of Haystack, to give a feel for what he felt about having things imposed on him by someone from outside their little group.

And finally, yes Kevin did decline the offer to join us for a vocal slot on Community. He didn't want his "tenuous link with the band" (his words) to be used against him - he clearly had no confidence in our ability to pull the project off, and didn't want his good name sullied......how we laughed. Would you like a copy of the correspondence ?

Originally posted by Detweiler 3.63 > Originally posted by gary knight> Thanks 'Detweiler'> > What can I say but..> > A) It is a great song, if not a great recording. Lyrically and vocally in a class above anything Barney has ever mustered. (NO, of course, are not really about lyrics and vocals. Their magic has always been in the moodiness of the textures they create.)> B) If you don't count only previously being available on a limited-run Belgian compilation import back in the mid-80s as 'long-lost' then I don't know what is!> C) Sorry. But as credited on the vinyl and CD version of 'From Brussels With Love', it is officially credited to KEVIN HEWICK & NEW ORDER. The undeniable first post-JD recording whether that makes the 'official' band history/discography tidy or not and whether the band enjoyed the experience or not. (I'm sure they have much bigger regrets. Like that godawful England World Cup song for starters, surely!) Anyway...it happened...and could've been much more significant. Rumour has it that Tony Wilson was actually treating this as an audition for Kevin and had a notion of him becoming New Order's vocalist. > D) Did Kevin really decline an invitation to contribute a cover? I'm amazed. I'd ave thought he'd have been honoured to be part of the project. I must email him.> > Kev's a true original, is scandalously unpublicised and needs whatever attention can be steered his way. Support Your Local ex-Factory Workers, comrades!

Sorry, but it isn't a great song, it isn't even a particularly good one. It doesn't matter who wrote the words or played on the recording, it's simply not a very good song.

An MP3 of the song has been freely available on this and other New Order sites for many years, so anyone who wants to listen to complete their collection has been able to do so at their leisure. That's what I meant by not long-lost.

The Crepuscule bods wrote that sleeve detail, not the band or a band representative. The name wasn't decided on until July/August 1980, and they could hardly credit it to Joy Division or the "no names", could they ?

It's not a rumour about Wilson wanting Kevin to audition for the new vocalist. It's 100% true. The band had other ideas, and refused to even speak to Kevin in the studio after a while. Bernard spent half the session playing the riff to the Buzzcock's "Boredom" instead of Haystack, to give a feel for what he felt about having things imposed on him by someone from outside their little group.

And finally, yes Kevin did decline the offer to join us for a vocal slot on Community. He didn't want his "tenuous link with the band" (his words) to be used against him - he clearly had no confidence in our ability to pull the project off, and didn't want his good name sullied......how we laughed. Would you like a copy of the correspondence ?

Okay. You don't like the song. I love the song. Tony Wilson loves the song. I think I'll trust the taste of the man who bought us Joy Division, ACR, Durutti Column etc.

And, as I say, the existence of 'Haystack' may mess up the 'official' New Order story. Too bad. Doesn't matter who wants to pretend it didn't happen...it happened.

Yes, true, the song has been around for a while as an mp3 for NO completists. But it's appearance on 'Tender Bruises And Scars' is the first time it has been officially and easily available on CD. (Well, actually, not that easily. You still have to search in cool stores for it. Amazon have it, thankfully.) And...this version has also been remastered. There's also an exclusive essay in the CD booklet where Kevin adds new insights on the session itself. That alone is worth buying the CD for, not to mention the spellbinding 'Ophelia's Drinking Song' tracks and the enhanced video clip - more long-lost Factory treasures.

Loved your story about Barney playing the 'Boredom' riff. And, yes, I'm sure the don't cherish the memory of the session. Not least due to hannett being totally out of it. But..as I say, it happened. Whether they enjoyed it or not. Some of the greatest recording sessions of all time have been a drag for the artists. Nothing new there.

I believe you re: Kevin's reluctance to contribute to 'Community'. However, I'm 100% sure it had nothing to do with Kev not believing you could pull it off. More likely he feels uncomfortable about the whole KH/NO thing. He'll probably hate me for this correspondance!

It sounds like Feargal Sharkey being hit in the face

Gary - are you Gary Knight from In Embrace? You must be - too much of a coincidence otherwise!

The merits of Haystack aside (obv greatness is a matter of opinion, nothing more), no need to stomp all over him Detweiler - alright the Haystack story is old hat to some of us, but this might be of real interest to some 16 year old from Tasmania who's just got into NO last week. Surely NOOL is for everyone?

Oh yes, let's all trust Tony Wilson's taste.

Don't think it was a war. Somebody (and no, it wasn't me !) started arguing the toss with him about this and that, mainly how he came onto the site to "play down his links with NO" at the same time as engaging in some shameless self-publicity on the back of his NO connection. I tried to find the old threads, but the search facility seems to have been disabled with the latest .net incarnation

After we invited him to collaborate with us for our Community songs (and it could have been Kevin instead of Jim's voice you all heard ) and he acquired frostbitten toes after originally agreeing to take part, he then disappeared from the site.

Pity, because he's a good musician who has a wealth of experience and a lot of anecdotes.

I had no intention of ever writing anything on this site again but I feel I have to answer the personal insults and untruths on this thread.I will do this point by point. Before I do that I have to say about how this has all started..I swear didn't want it to,I didn't ask for it to happen. Gary Knight is a dear friend who has given me a lot of support,not least in his fantastic work with Steve Rees on my website.He constantly seeks ways of making people aware of my music and for that I am ever grateful.It's surely the most lost of all lost causes but he does it anyway,for no personal gain.He is truly selfless and totally sincere in his unwavering support of me.The message on this thread is typical of him.I swear I had no idea he was going to post it on here.Had he have told me beforehand I'd have asked him not to.I didn't even know he had until he told me in an e-mail.Its been months since I've even looked at this site. When I appeared on it before in the summer of last year it was to correct a few things being said about what happened between NO and I in the early 80s,and to defend myself from attacks by certain fans..but I also ended up encountering a lot of goodwill and had fun answering some further points people bought up.It was a new experience for me -I wasn't that familiar with message boards and so forth then.Overall I thought the site and the knowledge and passion of the fans was incredible. There were reasons I went away again - but the main one was I went through some personal problems in the late summer of 2003.They were nothing to do with any of this,just life and stuff,but rather overwelming at the time.I am still trying to cope with some of it. I have been dogged by depression and self doubt for many years and,perhaps,I take things too much to heart,true.But I am stunned by the sheer spite of what some of you have written in reply to Gary's original message. I especially take offence at various comments by Detweiler.I will respond to each of them: I'm painfully aware of Detweilers jibe that I "make rambling,overenthusiastic responses at times"..my apologies to all that this one is of rambling lengh as well - but Detweiler has put up EIGHT THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWENTY TWO posts on this board in TWO years!If you ask me thats a fair bit of rambling - and a fair bit of "shameless self publicity" too! ..but at least I won't be sending another 8,821 after this one. Also..I'll try not to be "overenthusiastic" in future..though what makes 8,822er Detweiler the judge of this I don't know.Clearly showing any animation or humour or going on a bit about a topic was wrong of me.. The story of the "Haystack" session with New Order is familiar to you superfans but not to others..and considering the likes of Detweiler take such warped pleasure in pouring scorn on it it would be nice if they got their facts right. Detweiler claims:"none of them wanted to be there or took it too seriously" Bernard,Stephen and Peter worked for hours with me on the two songs we tried and even sat in on my ill fated solo acoustic efforts.They put in a full day at the studio with me..it was at Graveyard,not Western Works.This was June 1980,before the Western Works sessions..and they had decided on the New Order name the night before - you may all yawn at the oft repeated tale that Peter shrugged it off when I said about ex-Stooge Ron Asheton using the same name for his band.The point is they had decided on that name already.They were New Order. As so often said it was my first time in a "proper" recording studio and my nerves/awe at working with them led to the sessions dissapointing result.I couldn't fault the effort NO put into it considering it wasn't their project.Hannett phased me,yes,but I came to know in later times what a nice bloke he could be.NO were also always friendly on further meetings we had between 1980-82 and when I met Peter again in 1991..and Detweilers cliam that the band "..refused to even speak to Kevin in the studio after a while" that day is 100% untrue.This may be a mix up with when Tony Wilson and I fell out during a session at Cargo over a year later but not on this day..Is Detweiler is one of the band,the Graveyard engineer whose name I forget or Hannett sending spirit posts?If not then to put it plainly they weren't there..but I was!Its up to you who's version of events you believe..! The only signs of tension I recall,other than my upset at blowing so many takes,was when Bernard threw his Gibson SG guitar on the floor after several duff takes at a solo on the truly lost song of the session "A piece of fate".THIS is where he played The Buzzcocks"Boredom" solo for A FEW MINUTES..NOT "HALF THE SESSION"!!!!! Afterwards Peter Hook said to me that Bernard had taken Ians death the worst out of the band and he'd got upset over someone else singing in what was Ians place..so,again..you either believe what Detweiler tells you or what Peter Hook told me. Please as well..can Detweiler or any of you give clear proof that I was being "audtioned"..Detweiler says"its 100% true"..is it?Have the band or Tony Wilson ever publically admitted this?Is it documented anywhere as an actual fact?? The best account I've ever written about it all was in Eleanor Whitneys "20 Years Too Late"fanzine.Needless to say I recall Eleanor,a superb writer,a great person(we met up when she was in London last year)and devoted NO fan had her beautifully produced efforts rubbished by some on here.What a suprise.. And just to repeat..the Martin Hannett site account is a few years old now,and though very well meaning was third hand and has several inaccuracies. As for the invite to sing on the Community tribute..This is very hard for me to write.I rashly accepted the invite online.I was flattered but I didn't think it through first..I then started getting e-mails to my private address that put me totally off the idea.I found a certain aspect of them disturbing.The person who sent them knows why.The reason has nothing to do with the community tribute,its ability to "pull the project off" or NO online.I suggest those of you connected to the tribute know exactly what went wrong and see fit to imply that I thought I was above working with you on it. As it turns out having asked me you then mocked me for,on reflection,and with great regret,turning it down in the end..."How we laughed"..It appears I was damned if I did it,damned if I didn't.A publicity hungry has-been-that-never-was either way. Detweiler and co,you can be satisfied that I've struggled for over 20 years with in the shadow of my Factory/Cherry Red era times. I still write,play,record,perform but am currently having a really low time with it.Theres little or no interest in what I do.Few care if I do it or give up again like I did for 5 years in the mid-late 80s.Even if I do stop again I will always be mocked for writing a few whacked out songs and doing a few whacked out gigs over two decades ago,and never remembered for the great stuff I've tried to do in the last 15 years..OK,it all came out again on Cherry Red last year but they owned the rights and would have re-issued it all regardless of me but I co-operated to try to get it as right as I could..and I even plugged it on here,ok,ok..more fool me.. I've gone through depression,debt,family break up,you name it..I don't need you to rub it in.GET YOUR CRUEL KICKS SOMEWHERE ELSE AND LEAVE ME ALONE. Spotnick,I know you run this site with fairness and out of love of the band.I know most of the site members are loyal and true fans of NO...I have no problem with them,just a spiteful few..so Spotnick - please get these people off my back now.I appreciate this chance to have defended myself,thank you. No doubt Detweiler and co will find it amusing to continue baiting me in public,and I've no doubt given them plenty of inspiration for new attacks with this,but I will not post on here again,for me its over.

Wow. I read all of those threads with great interest and I also have not posted on here in some time.

The silver lining in all of that is reading about what happened in those dark days between New Order and Joy Division. Good reading that. . .we need more of that on this site. Less polls and more insightful writing.

is there an mp3 of HAYSTACK around ??

Excellent idea, Ian. Ask for an mp3 right in front of the artist's nose.

It's a shame if A Piece Of Fate is "truly lost", I'd have loved to have heard it...

I didn't mean to offend (as per usual), but I still stand by my claim that Tony Wilson has a penchant for bad taste. I mean, the Happy Mondays, anyone? And let's not forget the infamous table.

Originally posted by Hewick Kevin I'm painfully aware I make rambling,overenthusiastic responses at times

More of a dignified response I'd say .

I believe that some sort of apology could be in order here...

best wishes for the future Kevin, it's a shame that the legend sometimes gets turned into facts.

Thanks for clearing things up!

Kevin - your response does you credit and I hope this has put the record straight. All the best to you - keep on making music - you're an original and always worth hearing. You shouldn't regret plugging the CD on here - hopefully you'll flog a few.

Detweiler - I hope you've been told. You got the reply you deserved for sticking the boot in in such a boorish fashion. Maybe you'll either get your facts right or shut up and admit you don't know next time.

I'd like to apologise for my comment earlier. I don't like the song but mentioning Feargal Sharkey is always wrong unless the words 'Teenage Kicks' appear later in the sentence. :stupid:

Originally posted by DC Kevin - your response does you credit and I hope this has put the record straight. All the best to you - keep on making music - you're an original and always worth hearing. You shouldn't regret plugging the CD on here - hopefully you'll flog a few.

Indeed Kevin's original post persuaded me to buy the Tender Bruises cd. Haystack isn't offensive at all. It's a song which is part of New Order's history and always will be. I like it anyway. Lest we forget as well, Kevin has established himself in the Factory/New Order history books which few, if any of us have achieved.

If any collective is sending disturbing mail to Kevin himself if that is the case then that is bang out of order.

Yes...er..well. Make of all that what you will, people.

Kevin, sorry for causing you any distress, mate. Just wanted to draw 'Haystack' to the attention of anyone who wasn't aware of it. (NB - Detweiler, I DID search the forum and the discography for mention of it before I posted my little bit of publicity for it. I couldn't find any mention of it. )

Anyway.....hopefully this little cyberspat has helped draw it to the attention of a few more NO fans around here.

Thanks to all of you who posted messages of support for Kev. He needs/deserves as much as he can get.

Can't help you with free mp3's of Haystack (C'mon cheapskates! - Buy 'Tender Bruises And Scars' - it's a wonderful Jeff Buckley-esque thing...years before Jeff Buckley was doing his thing, of course.)

I CAN help with a few other free and exclusive kevin Hewick mp3's though. Check out http://artist.amazon.com/kevinhewick (Now - while they're still there). And, as I said, Kev's website is stuffed full of things about his Factory years and beyond.

And..er...DC? All those 16-year old Tasmanian In Embrace fans says 'hi'.

Firstly, I will apologise to Kevin for having offended him, and for having the temerity to draw together a variety of sources of anecdotal evidence, including some previously mentioned by Kevin himself, into one thread. Anyone who wishes to check out some of these anecdotes will be able to do so easily by checking the internet, there are enough of them about if you research.

I am a bit embarrassed about the "rambling overenthusiastic" comment, and will admit that. A bit of an over-reaction by Kevin though, I will say.

I take umbrage at the following though, which is a particularly twisted and inaccurate representation from Kevin.

As for the invite to sing on the Community tribute..This is very hard for me to write.I rashly accepted the invite online.I was flattered but I didn't think it through first..I then started getting e-mails to my private address that put me totally off the idea.I found a certain aspect of them disturbing.The person who sent them knows why.The reason has nothing to do with the community tribute,its ability to "pull the project off" or NO online.I suggest those of you connected to the tribute know exactly what went wrong and see fit to imply that I thought I was above working with you on it.

Kevin would have you believe that he began to get unsolicited e-mails to his private account. Far from it, Kevin entered into a correspondence with me, using that account to send mails to me. The "disturbing" bit would appear to be a complete misunderstanding - at the time my nickname on here was Fred West, as jokingly given to me by ATR. Coupled with the posting status at the time of "weirdo", Kevin seems to have thought that I was a serial killer worshipper or something, and immediately bailed out. There was no further correspondence. Anyone who knows me knows that couldn't be a less accurate portrayal of me. I'm fucked if I'm gonna have a character assassination on here by someone who thinks he can wave a depression flag and use these Factory connections to gain sympathy, which seems to be a major part of this response from Kevin.

I note that Kevin decides to ignore the compliment I paid him. So be it.

Detweiler, Detweiler, Detweiler.

There you go again. Just when it seemed you'd done the honest, grown-up thing and admitted that you were just a little too trigger-happy with the quick-fire put-downs....you go and make crass, ill-judged comments about 'depression' and 'sympathy votes'.

Personally, I don't think that depression is anything to dismiss in such a flippant, unsympathetic manner. As a fan of Ian Curtis you should be ashamed of yourself.

YOU started the character assassination stuff. Based largely on spurious bits of trivia you've picked-up here and there. You can hardly blame Kevin for defending himself so passionately!