Do you consider them to be one band or two seperate bands?

do you think of Joy Division and New Order to be seperate bands? ... or really just one band overall?

I really can't say...sometimes I see them as the same band. Like when you think of the album "Movement" or specifically 'ceremony' or 'in a lonely place'. It is very obvious that they stem directly from Joy Division. However, to think Joy Division would have released 'Republic' (i love republic but its no JD) doesn't seem right. I guess at times they seem like they are just Joy Division's evolution but other times New Order stands alone as a seperate band altogether

They are two separate bands. There is Joy Division and then there is New Order.

Ian Curtis was the driving force of Joy Division, their eyes...their guide. Once Ian was gone, Joy Division ceased to exist, and the remaining members formed New Order.

There are actually now three separate bands... JD as imagined by Mr Curtis... NO as a band... and now NO as a brand to be marketed and exploited... this third incarnation is free of the magic and mystery and is mainly ego indulging individual studio projects with guest appearances by the other members...

Ajw

I've started as a Joy Division only fan, so my opinion was similar to yours, but then when I got into New Order I also realised how they're the same band, just with the guitarist taking the microphone and the addition of the drummer's girlfriend at the keyboards. Ian's touch was important, but if we focus on the music, especially in the transition years (1980-1982) we can see a band changing, not the former members of Joy Division forming a new band. Of course the lyrics are totally different, but that melodic sensitivity and inventiveness is just the same, rapidly evolving. Sumner, Hook and Morris have always been the musical force of the band, and you can hear it on the side project, when one of them is missing: those are actually different bands... I like them all, but Electronic with no Hook or Morris, or even Revenge (my favourite) without Sumner are totally different bands, much more than New Order to Joy Division... When I see New Order doing Temptation in New York in 1981 I see the same band playing Transmission two years earlier, only after losing the original singer and found a new way to evolve...

Well, I think they are too seperate bands because of Ian's presence & influence on them. Musically they've changed as well I think (except Hooky really,lol). Bernard's guitar is different, Steven's drumming is different. Although I enjoy both bands equally, its a different fell. And a different band (besides Ian did play a little guitar, I'm sure he put some musical idea's in too).

5 8 6 wrote: They are two separate bands. There is Joy Division and then there is New Order.

Ian Curtis was the driving force of Joy Division, their eyes...their guide. Once Ian was gone, Joy Division ceased to exist, and the remaining members formed New Order.

Concur

Nicos hit it on the spot. No debate if they did not change their name. Gillian probably would have been add because Barney cannot do keys and guitar at the same time.

when i first began listening to JD and NO i thought of them as two separate bands, but as i grew to notice the subtleties of each instrument and the songwriting style, i see them as one. it's easy to say that joy division stopped and new order began around the time NO became extremely poppy, but some of the final JD songs were "love will tear us apart" and "ceremony", so they were obviously headed in that direction anyway. the same three people writing the music remained the same, and none of us can really say that 20 years later ian curtis wouldn't like to be on an album like "republic". JD changed so much in the 3 years they were a band that it only makes sense that the remaining members kept evolving.

But Gillian was in Joy Division...for one show.

prove it

they are the same band i say

ian didnt play the guitar (barely) the drums or bass.... who possibly then made the music we hear in joy division.. thats the right the members that are in new order... ian wrote the lyrics, and vocals to the band that doesnt make the entire band. 3/4 of the band has remained think of van halen.. with sammy and david... they were conisdered the same band.. ian was the image of the band... and many think that the image died when he did therefore people think they are a different band...

the defense rests

It's up to the band members themselves really. The thing is up until recently New Order were keen to stress that they were not Joy Division (probably because they wanted a fresh start, to make their own name), but since they started making music after the time apart they have been more at ease with their history, at least in public. I guess it doesn't matter if they are one band or two.

If they are two bands then they are the greatest bands there have ever been.

they are the same to me. Spot's right, more the merrier, i like to see a quintet, if Gil comes back and keeps Phil, it would be different.

Same band for me

i was just curious how many different fans view them...

i've always seen them as Joy Division/ New Order, one band with two names and periods... instead of Joy Division and New Order, two bands with similar members

i think that Factory records and Peter Saville helped keep the continuity between JD and NO, as well as the indie spirit and band intangibles... the post-Factory era is almost a bigger break IMO

Fascinating how the majority here feel like they're the same band. And, fankly, a little bizarre in my opinion.

They're just two very distinct entities to me (even with the overlap of the first single and album). I would never have imagined Joy Division doing "Blue Monday" down the line, or "Theives like us." I think it was Ian's suicide that helped foster and facilitate the changes that made New Order what they became in the first place.

Hooky in 1986: "But we're still Joy Division, there's no difference apart from the obvious one."

Yeah, well...what the hell does he know. ;)

Don't ask me. I voted for "I love porn." :D