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MANCHESTER - So Much To Answer For? MY ARSE!!!

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This is an archived legacy thread. Replies are closed, but the discussion is preserved.

The constant hype of this city some of us call home is frankly getting beyond reproach. I mean, to be truthful, hyperbole is just the blind leading the blind. Today (Saturday) , for the first time in weeks, I went into Manchester to check out what records/CDs/books, etc I could pick up - having not had a chance to do this for bloody ages. True, I call in at all my usual favourite haunts, chat to my mates behind the counter, the usual sort of thing. But one nagging thought has been coursing through my mind for ages. Ever since that bloody bomb back in 1996, this city has been, shall we say..."undergoing change". Like every other fecking city in Britain presumably. But for some reason, Manchester's regeneration attempts have - second to London of course - been getting some serious press attention worldwide. The only other city in Britain undergoing a comparable (perhaps even more so) transformation in recent years is, of all places, Birmingham (Sarah Middle will confirm this as I'm sure she will testify to her own city centre likewise being a building site on a similarly enormous scale - I understand the hideous Bull Ring has now gone - to be followed by the blasted Inner Ring Road - am I correct?).

Well, press or no press, it seems the hype has well and truly concealed the reality. No surprise there then. What I'm getting at is - if you care to take a walk through city centre Manchester, you may well see all the cranes and scaffolding erupting from every corner. In fact if you arrive by train (by far the best, most sado-masochistically humiliating way to enter the city - comparable to being squeezed through Satan's Slimy Sweaty Arse-ring.) that's the first sight that will greet you anyway. But all this scaffolding cannot hide the fact that this city is changing - but for the worse. What we're getting by the hundred are soulless office buildings, leisure and shopping complexes, shite yuppie cafe bars and theme pubs and designer sandwich bars and useless themed "Civic Projects" that really mean fuck all to the majority of Mancunians. This frenetic rash of rebuilding is only the latest in an insidious attempt to gentrify a lot of otherwise industrially bleak/neglected parts of the city centre. Step a mile outside the city centre in any direction you can care to wander and see the sheer reality hit you like a brick wall - and if you're very lucky, leave with your shoes still on your feet ! Even more of an insult is how architecturally retarded and plain uninspiringly bland most of these new structures are. The Bridgewater Hall, the new Marks and Spencers, The Manchester Evening News (formerly Nynex) Arena, Deansgate Locks, Great Bridgewater Square......EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM is constructed to an identical style - same green tinted glass, rustic grey steel, beige concrete, slab-bricks..... its as if they left their inspiration back at the drawing office. (I harbour this view seeing as I nearly ended up studying for an BA Architecture degree instead of a Graphic design one which is what I ended up doing). Boring! The only vaguely exciting structure is the new Urbis Centre - behind the former Corn Exchange (now Triangle) building. but it too looks like a cop-out, as if it was initially planned much bigger but had to settle for being a little GREEN-TINTED (see what I said?) glass stump shaped like a curved ship's hull. Most bizarre.

Anyway, enough on the buildings - my point is that they may be rebuilding the city, but ....WHO IS IT FOR?? Not the majority of Mancunians, that's for sure - The Corn Exchange's loss was probably the biggest travesty for many of us - now in its place we have the most soulless depressing designer outlet known to mankind - complete with horrid hordes of teenage wank gathering round outside every weekend in their tedious nu-metal/skater garb, all ritualistically skateboarding up and down the ramps and water features. I know loads of friends who to this day have not made much back from the loss they sustained from the bomb which damaged the Corn Exchange - some have given up because the city's rents are astronomical. Others have managed to eke out a feeble existence elsewhere - small backs streets off the main thoroughfares, if not Northern Quarter/ Oldham Street itself. (the most bohemian quarter still existing..) But on the whole, the picture is not rosy.

For too long the mass corporate outlets have flourished, and the money never reaches those who need it in order to survive. The shocking thing is that, in Manchester, we have had our own north/south divide for years. Now the disturbing development is that there are now areas of the city centre in which this undesirable problem has manifested itself. Thanks to these fucking trendy developers and their multi-million pound projects [like, who seriously can afford to buy a £2 million penthouse overlooking the River Irwell - itself not exactly the Danube!- unless they're friends with a Railtrack fat cat, or a Man United footballer?] aimed at the nouveau-riche, and in so doing, destroying what old character is left of some parts of the city. Do we really need any more designer cafes and fast food outlets? Do we really need more 38-screen multiplex cinemas? Do we really need more extortionately-furnished designer clothing outlets in a city already bursting to the brim with them? It's all very well, isn't it? But when you consider that a good 60 percent of the city's population of 449,000 are not exactly multi millionaires on a Premier-league footballers daily salary,and thus do not have such a disposable income, then the reality starts to bite.

Manchester was placed firmly on the world map back in 1989/1990, with the over-hyped Madchester thingy, but in some ways it's been trying to live off that legacy ever since, rather than shake it off and move on. It may well have seen better bands and music emerging in the ten years since, but they've hardly been THAT groundshaking (guitar bands - how inventive can you get if you're a traditional guitar band [e.g. Oasis/Starsailor]? Know what I mean?) - clubwise, it probably died a death when the Hacienda, Boardwalk, and Sankeys Soap shut down (remember, Cream was born here before moving to Liverpool). A lot of the clubs here aren't really much cop anymore to be truthful. Leeds, Sheffield and the 'Pool appear to have overtaken it. The reopening of Sankeys recently passed without much hype or fanfare. Planet K is too big and soulless to be as convincing a venue. And the sound is shite too. Only Night and Day and the Roadhouse carry a guarantee that you will have a cheap-ish night out and get to see a few intriguingly low-budget/lo-fi bands into the bargain. The Music Box - home to The Electric Chair, probably Manchester's sole remaining club night success story, is empty four nights a week. Our band used to rehearse there - and it's a bloody depressing place when it's empty. And Manchester's a fucking violent and intimidating place at weekends too, I'm sorry to say. Can't even walk through the city at night between midnight and three in the morning without sensing the unease of an imminent ambush from some pissed up wankers who can't hold their drink down. The shithole they're still calling Piccadilly Gardens (even though it's a quagmire undergoing resurrection into more green-tinted glass office buildings no doubt), and Market Street have the overwhelming stench of shit and vomit any time of the day. Even the pigeons here are aggressive (divebombing you when you're trying to eat your fucking chips, and shit on yer head if you refuse to throw them any scraps).

Manchester may have given us as many great bands as its great rival Liverpool over the years [come to think of it, each city seems to take it in turns to hog the limelight - 60's : Liverpool (Beatles, Merseybeat , LFC), 70's : Manchester (punk- The Fall, Buzzcocks, So It Goes, Joy Div, MUFC), 80's Liverpool (LFC, Frankie, Wah!, OMD, Bunnymen), 90's Manchester (you know the rest....)]. And it may have been a great city to have a night out in or even live, but now try telling that to all the poor misguided students who descend here year in year out in the hope of capturing some of the much-lauded "nirvana" and all they get now are cranes, mud, scaffolding, late trains, muggings, rapes, shootings, ugly people, scallies, pigeon shit, puke and piss, and abusive bag ladies armed with coshes. So, my verdict - Manchester, bit of a shithole, sadly. Don't believe the hype.

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Glad to see yer back to normal - Is there anything about Manchester that does agree with you?

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The way a city is usually ruined is by rebuilding it to be more "modern" Perfect example, NYC: for years it was the crime capital of America (real or percieved to be, who can say), but with Guiliani, it's become Disneyland Inc. Not trying to trash the city that has suffered so much, but prior to Sep 11 the city was losing its character amidst endless restaurants that hocked sporting goods, crappy "designer " stores that would normally hide in the mall now taking up entire street blocks, and soulless "musicals" featuring out-of-work sitcom stars trying to support their cocaine habits. People become obsessed with rebuilding because they think that will make a city or area better, but it usually results in a loss of character. Part of what made an area special is lost forever when a modern shoping center replaces an old warehouse and the like. Before you start accusing me of Unabomber-like ranting, I just want to point out that it's just my opinion, I could be wrong..

On a similar note< I saw on the news where they tore down the one piece of wall left standing from the WTC today. Hopefully they'll turn it into a memorial befitting those who lost their lives, not another celbrity themed restaurant....

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Originally posted by Taboo # 7 On a similar note< I saw on the news where they tore down the one piece of wall left standing from the WTC today. Hopefully they'll turn it into a memorial befitting those who lost their lives, not another celbrity themed restaurant....

Quite right too, though I sincerely hope some wag isn't going to consider cashing in and opening a joint called "The Bin Laden Experience (Come And Re-Live It Here For $3.50)" on Lower Broadway ..... :nonono:

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As long as the WWF (World Rassilin' Federation) doesn't try and open another restaurant there, we can all sleep a littl easier at night :sleep:

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Originally posted by Shug Glad to see yer back to normal - Is there anything about Manchester that does agree with you?

Favourite (and therefore recommended to non-residents) Manchester haunts:

Cafe Pop (shrine to vinyl and good food - once even more legendary due to its unique 50s/60s collectibles boutique), Oldham Street Vinyl Exchange, Oldham Street Band On The Wall, Swan Street The Star and Garter The Roadhouse Night and Day Jabez Clegg The Koffee Pot (damn fine local-owned greasy spoon cafe: a lot of Mc'r luminaries said to frequent here) Earwaves Records Chorlton Southern Hotel (Buzz Comedy Club) Kingbee Records (Chorlton , 3 miles south of city centre) The Castle, Oldham Street Bar Cuba, Port Street Johnny Roadhouse Music Shop Chinatown New Aeon Books The Coliseum Museum of Science & Industry, Castlefield The Witchwood (Ashton-under-Lyne - six miles east of city centre) All the secondhand junk shops and record/book shops dotted all over the southern districts of Burnage, Fallowfield, Withington, Levenshulme, East Didsbury and Chorlton.

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So it's not that bad afterall is it Mr Gray? a wee push in the right direction was all you needed:lol: And please, do not thank me;)

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I've always wanted to go to Manc ever since getting into the Smiths and JD....:jump:

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Please do Taboo - then you will see for yourself just what it is about this city that has infuriated yours truly for the best part of the last 13 years. But find time to check out the recommended places I listed above as well. Diamonds amongst acres and acres of shit.

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Taboo, I did just that in 93. Made a trip to Salford Lads Club (not that impressive but covered with graffiti and i heard they were going to tear it down) and the record store (3beat?) shit, i forgot the name, i think justin robertson and roger lyons worked there a while ago. manchester was ok but Edinburgh a little further north was beautiful.

Martin, being American, I can't even imagine so many bands I like coming from the same city in my country. Manchester has earned it's legacy and you seem to be suffering from the "it ain't what it used to be" syndrome with a touch of "the grass is greener". Seattle's musical legacy includes Nirvana, Soundgarden and Heart. Oh Joy. I think Grand Central Records is out of manchester and some folks from Paper Recordings are based in the city. Be patient marty. the best things come to those who wait and patience is a virtue and other cliches that are based in truth. rather than going to amsterdam with your free time, why don't you visit America. manchester will feel like heaven when you return.

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Originally posted by Geaux Hagen Taboo, I did just that in 93. Made a trip to Salford Lads Club (not that impressive but covered with graffiti and i heard they were going to tear it down) and the record store (3beat?) shit, i forgot the name, i think justin robertson and roger lyons worked there a while ago. manchester was ok but Edinburgh a little further north was beautiful.Martin, being American, I can't even imagine so many bands I like coming from the same city in my country. Manchester has earned it's legacy and you seem to be suffering from the "it ain't what it used to be" syndrome with a touch of "the grass is greener". Seattle's musical legacy includes Nirvana, Soundgarden and Heart. Oh Joy. I think Grand Central Records is out of manchester and some folks from Paper Recordings are based in the city. Be patient marty. the best things come to those who wait and patience is a virtue and other cliches that are based in truth. rather than going to amsterdam with your free time, why don't you visit America. manchester will feel like heaven when you return.

I have been - I've sampled US life on four occasions previously: my grandma (who sadly didn't quite make it to her 100th this year, passing away in April - she would have hit her century in October) has lived in Las Vegas for 33 years. I've visited her and my cousins there in 1976 and 1987 - each time the place was barely recognisable, it's probably totally different again now. I thought the idea of a 24 hour gambling city was cool - you need never wake up until night fall I guess. I've also done LA, San Francisco, San Jose once or twice. SF is a beautiful city. LA, a lot less so. New York is just - what can I say? It's the whole world compressed into one 310 square mile 8-million-strong space, isn't it? Needless to say, having sampled bits of all five boroughs back in 1997, I loved it and I was intending to go back this year until the horrific attacks of Sept 11 curtailed my plans.

Incredibly enough, I have close relatives/distant relatives/friends in the following US/Canadian cities: Boston, LA. San Francisco, Sacramento, Reno, Las Vegas, Boston, New York, Buffalo, Brooklyn, San Diego, Phoenix, Jersey City, Hoboken, Chicago, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Toronto, Edmonton, Vancouver, Ottawa, and if I was able to take any substantial amount of time out of this shit monotonous life of mine here in UK, I would seriously think about visiting a fair few of these places if only to see these folks as my time on this planet is not infinite. It's just time and money that hinders me as usual. I disagree that Manchester will "feel like heaven" when I return should I have undertook a long trip to the US/Canada. That just isn't possible. This is England, remember, and it's an increasingly ugly place - becasue of the people who run it and who spawn in it, sadly. At least with US it's such a fucking huge place you can practically disappear into the sticks and never hope to be found or bothered if you really did wish to go A.W.O.L. You just cannot do it in this country - it's too small and crowded.

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Originally posted by Geaux Hagen Be patient marty. the best things come to those who wait and patience is a virtue and other cliches that are based in truth. rather than going to amsterdam with your free time, why don't you visit America. manchester will feel like heaven when you return.

I have been waiting - for over ten years in fact - for things to get better in this country. Sadly, despite all the cultural delights that we may well have been able to offer over this period - check the music/bands of course - there is little else of any real hope left for me here if I am to have a future and see in my oncoming middle age . Take public transport, crime, hospitals, national health. These are the big four issues every single fucking government elected t promises they will improve - but none of these fuckers have a clue how to go about it. This has been chipping away at my (and no doubt lots of other people's) patience and tolerance for the last twenty -odd years now, and frankly there is NO FUCKING WAY it is going to get better. Put it this way - we still haven't reached rock bottom yet. That is why life in Britain - or Manchester, if you like - sucks. The sooner I can sell up and leave, the better for the good of my health, because if I don't get out of here before I hit 40, there will be absolute hell to pay - and you all may well find my name plastered all over the headlines on the daily newspapers.

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i can't argue with that. try vancouver the next time NorthAmerica calls your name. it's the best place this side of the lincoln tunnel.

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I've been a frequent visitor to Manchester over the years - chiefly because sometimes the theatre company I do lighting for often travel there for the odd jaunt . The last time i visited was May this year, when a local school group had to perform a concert at the Contact theatre near the University. I don't think the place is as bad as Martin is making it out to be - i suppose the reason for his vitriol stems form the length of time he's spent living there - long enough to see changes happening - sometimess for the worsre of course. But having said that, its no worse or better than, say, Leeds, which also has it's great clubs and culture but also has a far more undesirable side to it as well - Iike only this summer, there were a lot of gun-related incidesnts happening in parts of the city's inner districts. So I don't think you can expect a utopia anuywhere you go to be honest. Perhaps it's as much as we can allow for just to make do with the way things are and hope there is light at the end of the tunnel. I'm probably writing a load of junk here that doesn't make any sense at all. How can anybody else here possibly hope to express their cynicism and hatred in the way that Martin does.? :laugh:

Todd.

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Originally posted by Todd Bendy (aka Ben Sweeney) I've been a frequent visitor to Manchester over the years - chiefly because sometimes the theatre company I do lighting for often travel there for the odd jaunt . The last time i visited was May this year, when a local school group had to perform a concert at the Contact theatre near the University. I don't think the place is as bad as Martin is making it out to be - i suppose the reason for his vitriol stems form the length of time he's spent living there - long enough to see changes happening - sometimess for the worsre of course. But having said that, its no worse or better than, say, Leeds, which also has it's great clubs and culture but also has a far more undesirable side to it as well - Iike only this summer, there were a lot of gun-related incidesnts happening in parts of the city's inner districts. So I don't think you can expect a utopia anuywhere you go to be honest. Perhaps it's as much as we can allow for just to make do with the way things are and hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.I'm probably writing a load of junk here that doesn't make any sense at all. How can anybody else here possibly hope to express their cynicism and hatred in the way that Martin does.? :laugh:Todd.

Thanks for your words Todd, but I still think Manc is a far more violent place than Leeds could ever hope to be - I've been out in Leeds to a few gigs - at the Uni and The Cockpit by the Railway Station, and more recently to see Fruitbat (out of Carter USM) and his new band at The New Roscoe on the fringe of the city centre and I have to admit - all these occasions were weekends, but unlike the atmosphere in Manchester on Fridays and Saturdays where the air is so thick with menace and intimidation, I just didn't get that feeling walking through Leeds City Centre that time of night. Now until there are any Leeds-based onliners who could care to drop a line into this thread and tell me the truth about their city then I will stand by this belief that life here in Manchester is just a bed of broken glass and piss-wet fag-ends. Not pretty.

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Originally posted by Geaux Hagen Taboo, I did just that in 93. Made a trip to Salford Lads Club (not that impressive but covered with graffiti and i heard they were going to tear it down) and the record store (3beat?) shit, i forgot the name, i think justin robertson and roger lyons worked there a while ago. .

Geaux Hagen,I think you mean 'Eastern Bloc' records '3 beat' is in Liverpool,did you get to Liverpool? or have you just heard of 3 beat? Liverpool has some fantastic buildings,and it's fair share of ugly ones,same with the people, read an article on the number of murders in the city last week,Shocking!

Martin I think your wrong about Cream starting in Manchester.There was a club with the same name there, but the one started by Darren Hughes and James Barton was originally Cream @ nation where it is now, they previously had club nights at 'The State' 'The Underground' and 'Quadrant Park'and I think 'The Coconut Grove' all in Merseyside.'Bugged Out' Cream's monthly all-nighter was originally in Manchester at Sankey's soap factory.

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Sad thing is that it's not just Leeds, Manchester and parts of London, it's across the country. Little shitty Worcester has the highest weekend nights/arrests ratio per capita in the country. Every time I go home for a weekend the local paper is full of court cases involving violence here there and everywhere. Heroin is rife, guns rule the streets in certain parts. Makes you fucking despair sometimes.

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Originally posted by Socrates El Orificio Ectoplasm Sad thing is that it's not just Leeds, Manchester and parts of London, it's across the country. Little shitty Worcester has the highest weekend nights/arrests ratio per capita in the country. Every time I go home for a weekend the local paper is full of court cases involving violence here there and everywhere. Heroin is rife, guns rule the streets in certain parts. Makes you fucking despair sometimes.

Slough was the ranking place I've ever spent any time. This place really does take the biscuit - it's full of all the big high st. shops and nothing else. No small businesses or anything like that. The amount of racial hatred there was shocking and I can honestly say I was shit scared everytime I walked around there at night. South/Central London feels completely unthreatening in comparison.

Marty i can honestly say I think Birmingham has been really helped by recent development - it is a much nicer city nowadays. That Bull ring atrocity was repulsive.

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Originally posted by Hank Wiseass© > Originally posted by Geaux Hagen> Taboo, I did just that in 93. Made a trip to Salford Lads Club (not that impressive but covered with graffiti and i heard they were going to tear it down) and the record store (3beat?) shit, i forgot the name, i think justin robertson and roger lyons worked there a while ago. .

Geaux Hagen,I think you mean 'Eastern Bloc' records '3 beat' is in Liverpool,did you get to Liverpool? or have you just heard of 3 beat? Liverpool has some fantastic buildings,and it's fair share of ugly ones,same with the people, read an article on the number of murders in the city last week,Shocking!

Martin I think your wrong about Cream starting in Manchester.There was a club with the same name there, but the one started by Darren Hughes and James Barton was originally Cream @ nation where it is now, they previously had club nights at 'The State' 'The Underground' and 'Quadrant Park'and I think 'The Coconut Grove' all in Merseyside.'Bugged Out' Cream's monthly all-nighter was originally in Manchester at Sankey's soap factory.

Thanks Hank - yer right about it actually being "BUGGED OUT" that started at Sankeys, - I stand corrected. Sorry I'm not so sharp on my factual accuracies of late - my head feels like its going to cave in any day soon.

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Originally posted by Seb Briggs > Originally posted by Socrates El Orificio Ectoplasm> Sad thing is that it's not just Leeds, Manchester and parts of London, it's across the country. Little shitty Worcester has the highest weekend nights/arrests ratio per capita in the country. Every time I go home for a weekend the local paper is full of court cases involving violence here there and everywhere. Heroin is rife, guns rule the streets in certain parts. Makes you fucking despair sometimes.

Slough was the ranking place I've ever spent any time. This place really does take the biscuit - it's full of all the big high st. shops and nothing else. No small businesses or anything like that. The amount of racial hatred there was shocking and I can honestly say I was shit scared everytime I walked around there at night. South/Central London feels completely unthreatening in comparison.

Marty i can honestly say I think Birmingham has been really helped by recent development - it is a much nicer city nowadays. That Bull ring atrocity was repulsive.

Weird thing is, I know Birmingham and the West Midlands like the back of my hand simply because when i was very young I would always visit my relatives there with my aunt and sisters - my uncle and aunt from Brum are long dead now, but they lived in Edgbaston - a surprisingly smart and leafy upmarket suburb considering it's often classed as "inner city"; other cousins lived near Spaghetti Junction in Erdington, Sutton Coldfield, Solihull, Lichfield, Walsall, Cannock and Burntwood. That's why I kind of know so much about what's been going on development wise in the city centre and the area around it. It's got absolutely nothing to do with actually liking the Brummie/Black Country accent though whatsoever. But like I said, I've always noted that in recent years, Birmingham city centre, though a bit characterless in many places, is actually damn clean - unlike this shithole up here.

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Shall i tell you guys something...the same shit happens all over Holland too !!Destroying cities with new buildings. It makes you wonder if all todays architects did one of these home-study-courses! Indeed the lack of fantasy and ability to let new buildings kindof blend in with the older parts of town is really shocking.My own hometown is being demolished by these freaks of nature calling themselves architects. Yet there are still lots of arch. who are able to both innovate as well as taking the original soul of a inner city serious, guys like Rem Koolhaas(dutch!)realy do marvelous jobs. I am afraid this whole thong is a global problem. We should get together and try and stop these fake-archies and our frontman can be no other than Prince Charles , who is also very worried about this "trend". Thats another thing i fucking hate:trends.

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Very true indeed, Mario - and I fully empathise with your grievances: it's possibly a global thing, and not just confined to here in Europe. However, if a poltroon such as Prince Charles cared half as much about the issue of "aesthetics" as he always claims to do, then why hasn't he thought about doing the decent thing and consider ridding the world of that perennial embarrassment that he regards as his father, Prince Philip? Now what a useless retarded no-brained incontinent arsewipe he is - perhaps indirectly the sole reason why this increasingly feeble, wretched and desperate country of ours is so backward and xenophobic to a tee. Know what I mean?

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The alternative view from a Manchester resident of 28 years, (who has also lived in Oxford, Wolves, London and currently works in liverpool)is that Manchester is no different than any other major city in the UK. Yes - Sat night is like the Wild West at times, and there are too many cafe bars, cinema screens etc, and nightlife is no longer like it was in the days of the Hac. But the reason is not because the city is sliding into the shit, it is because it is changing. Marty is of my generation, and like it or not Marty, those days are over. Yes, I've been to Sankeys since it reopened, and it was a good night, but "not like the old days"!

The new Manchester is for everyone who likes convenience- People brought up on the internet, with everything at their fingertips.The centre is clean - although I agree about Market St. and Piccadilly stinking of piss (The The - Heartland?)I also agree about the Nu-metal KIDS outside the Triangle - but is that because we are rapidly turning into a different generation who dont understand youth culture?

Manchester still has good shops - my favourites include Vinyl Exchange, Life, Piccadilly Records, Afflecks (although I've not been there recently. The pubs are still great - Ralph Abercrombie, Wellington, Sinclairs, Dukes 92, Sankeys, Roadhouse and more that I have forgotten. You will find those who have your same complaints about the other cities - Liverpool in particular I know about.

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it is no so much about not understanding youth culture no more imo. It has more to do with ignorance ,wanting everything straight away, in an instant, lack of moral, everything should be possible. Basicly it is aboutsociety has changed into an egocentric, a very egocentric one.People only care for themselves and (if they are lucky ) for their children.They want to have everything and in order to get it ,everythiong seems allowed.Making me sick

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Valid points from both of you there - so I'm in partial agreement. Yeah, I have to concede that I do sound like that tedious old "it was better in them days when I wuz a lad" kind of rose-tinted nonsense, by all this constant sniping about trendy pubs, trendy nu-metal kids and trendy apartment / crash-pad culture that we now have so much of...yeah a sign of the times I'm sure. But my main gripe was....we may be changing and progressing like we should - of course - who wants EVERYTHING to stay the same? The point is, it's simply not enough for everything to just be COSMETIC - take a look all around you and you will see my point - things have got to WORK as well. The most obvious example is our shocking public transport infrastructure - few can deny that they're spending millions - billions - trying to modernise everything, bring in new "state of the art" (GOD I HATE THAT TERM!! IT STINKS!!) technology, new trains, new redeveloped station facilities, etc. But they don't know how to harness that technology to make things WORK properly - that's my biggest bone of contention - no amount of flash uniforms, repainting schemes, new station concourses and even, dammit, new trains will make our railways any faster or more reliable if the underlying infrastructure is not up to scratch, not to mention recruiting enough people who know how to do their job properly to ensure that everything runs smoothly. This is clearly not happening. Not now, not in the past, and probably not in the future. That is why I have lost all faith in how our cities are supposedly run. They're not really changing for the "better": too many other problems are hampering this in the vain name of progress. Like Mario says, it's attitudes - and we certainly HAVE become a greedier, more selfish, brutal and unscrupulous peoples since, say even the 1980s. Life certainly IS getting more relentless and claustrophobic. That's where my main concerns and anxieties lie. People have short memories now. Things don't stand still for a day, let alone a week. Nobody really cares anymore. Maybe I'm alone in that I care too fucking much. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

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understand you completely Martin,read the last post on your ""everybody is after me these days""thread....

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Originally posted by Mario Herlaar understand you completely Martin,read the last post on your ""everybody is after me these days""thread....

I agree about life becoming more hectic, but I still think that there are signs of hope. Public transport is crap - although in Manchester, the tram system, which has been, and still is being extended, is a positive local infrastructure change. Other cities - Sheffield and Leeds are following suit. The underground in London is mostly fine. It just seems like travelling between cities is a problem!

There are things which have improved - look at the problems faced by our parents and grandparents that we no longer have to suffer. The world changes - perhaps not always for the better, but it changes, and we must shift our perceptions of it, if we are not to look like the old cynics who hark bark to so-called golden ages, that never existed. Crapness has always been here - just in different forms!

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Martin, Leeds is bloody red brick lego gone mad for the buildings and footy stars roaming the streets kickin the shit out of who ever they want and the only bands from leeds are soft cell & the sisters of misery.

The grass ain't always greener

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martin i too is mancunian and a few years ago moved to the new revamped hulme, which lets face it was the most disgusting armpit in the world.

manchester is indeed changing some good but as you say lots bad, unfortunatley whats griping manchester is globalisation its very hard to find an independently owned bar ie night and day and various bars down oxford road.

my mates and i usually have a night out down the village just to escape the pissed up drunken nob heads you discribed, which the majority used to be individually owned.

i think manchester generally is a safer place to walk at night because of the increased population of all ages.

some architecture is trying to stick with the mill town industrial side of manchester which for one i am proud of.

i do go to amsterdam about 3 times a year to get a flavour for what manchester should be which is bohiemien lots of individual bars and a great atmosphere but that to can be a scary place.

all in all i think manchester is changing for the better but is in danger of losing its individualism.

:karate:

anyone soz for spelling shite at spelling

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Originally posted by phil > Originally posted by Mario Herlaar> understand you completely Martin,read the last post on your ""everybody is after me these days""thread....

I agree about life becoming more hectic, but I still think that there are signs of hope. Public transport is crap - although in Manchester, the tram system, which has been, and still is being extended, is a positive local infrastructure change. Other cities - Sheffield and Leeds are following suit. The underground in London is mostly fine. It just seems like travelling between cities is a problem!I take it you don't use the LU much then! Its a shocking mess - overcrowded, slow, hot, uncomfortable, unreliable..I could go on and on!agree with you about your other points though. there has always been crap, generally social problems such as Racism, Sexism etc ARE getting better - slower than we'd all like of course.

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