Decades — Forum Archive — New Order Online

16 Dec 2001, 04:53

Has anyone heard Decades performed by New Order at the Heaven Ultradisco soundcheck (London, Feb. 9, 1981)? (I'm not talking about the 1985 Decades.)

If so, did you notice that the last two minutes are significantly faster than the studio version on Closer and the live version on Still?

Perhaps this was more what the track was meant to be? The Birmingham concert on Still was actually the song's live debut...

** If you haven't heard the track, check on Audiogalaxy under New Order: "Decades London Heaven Soundcheck".

16 Dec 2001, 08:23

No it wasn't the live debut. They played it at the Rainbow Theatre show 4/4/80 as part of the set supporting the Stranglers before going off to the Moonlight Club for the second gig of the night.

Agree about the different speed of the Heaven Soundcheck though, it's certainly different. Festival Hall/Paradiso 84 are probably as close as we will get to definitive live versions though.

The problem with Decades live, as with many JD keyboard/based songs, was that in order to "hook" the audience (pun very much intended !), they de-tuned the pure-set on the keyboard, hence the off-sounding wobble on the Still version of Decades. All part of a cunning plot to entrance the viewer with a combination of mesmeric dancing and hypnotic keyboards. Either that or the keyboard was just a crappy one !

16 Dec 2001, 20:16

[Content deleted by Morris Fan on 12/16/01 11:48:35 PM EST]

16 Dec 2001, 23:48

Originally posted by Socrates El Orificio Ectoplasm No it wasn't the live debut. They played it at the Rainbow Theatre show 4/4/80 as part of the set supporting the Stranglers before going off to the Moonlight Club for the second gig of the night.

You are indeed correct. Have you heard this gig? (Another website says the existence of a bootleg is in doubt.)

Agree about the different speed of the Heaven Soundcheck though, it's certainly different. Festival Hall/Paradiso 84 are probably as close as we will get to definitive live versions though.

I beg to differ on that, though - I don't view Bernard singing it as anything 'definitive'. I'm willing to settle for a New Order soundcheck (=> no singing) at best.

The problem with Decades live, as with many JD keyboard/based songs, was that in order to "hook" the audience (pun very much intended !), they de-tuned the pure-set on the keyboard, hence the off-sounding wobble on the Still version of Decades. All part of a cunning plot to entrance the viewer with a combination of mesmeric dancing and hypnotic keyboards. Either that or the keyboard was just a crappy one !

What is de-tuning the pure-set? Couldn't the sound on Still just have been poor recording equipment?

17 Dec 2001, 05:24

No, I haven't heard the tape, but the songs played were verified by someone who was at the show.

It's a pity that Decades wasn't chosen for the recent gigs, much rather have heard that than Transmission.

De-tuning the pure-set was one of these "hypnotic" ideas that arose from trying to explain Ian Curtis's dancing. I think it was Barney's idea to alter the pitch of the keyboard sound to create a slightly alienating distraction which, combined with the dancing, gives an unsettling and mesmeric quality to performances. The same keyboard had been used on Atmosphere, so it wasn't faulty equipment. If you listen to the audience tape rather than the soundboard of Birmingham 80, you will hear that it was definitely the keyboard making those out-of-key sounds, not the quality of the recording equipment. Joy Division often used little alterations to the speed of instruments - Ian's vocals were lowered to give him that resonance - he actually sounded like Ashley off Coronation Street !!

17 Dec 2001, 15:59

Originally posted by Socrates El Orificio Ectoplasm Ian's vocals were lowered to give him that resonance - he actually sounded like Ashley off Coronation Street !!

In each concert? Also, I'm in the US, so who's Ashley?

I happened to actually have heard the audience tape of the Birmingham concert. (Back in the Napster era the full concert was posted - I feel lucky to have heard Ceremony at the soundcheck, despite the atrocious sound quality.) I'll listen to it again for the keyboard effects.

17 Dec 2001, 16:34

Originally posted by Morris Fan > Originally posted by Socrates El Orificio Ectoplasm> Ian's vocals were lowered to give him that resonance - he actually sounded like Ashley off Coronation Street !!

In each concert? Also, I'm in the US, so who's Ashley?

Yes, every concert. That was one of the key changes between the Warsaw days and the distinctive sound that was Joy Division. Everything was turned inside out - bass took the melody parts in most songs, guitar became the rhythm instrument in most songs as Hooky led the song with the bassline, snare drums were turned up at the expense of other drums, and Ian's vocals were put through a harmoniser.

Ashley is this annoying little bloke with a really high squeaky voice with a Manc accent. No good me saying Emlyn Hughes or Alan Ball either is it ? :)

17 Dec 2001, 17:02

You're saying Ian's voice is actually high-pitched, but I've heard the "Radio Blackburn Interview" (about 7 minutes long, apparently recorded in April 1980) and he sounds quite bluesy there. Do you know what I'm talking about?

17 Dec 2001, 17:28

Originally posted by Morris Fan You're saying Ian's voice is actually high-pitched, but I've heard the "Radio Blackburn Interview" (about 7 minutes long, apparently recorded in April 1980) and he sounds quite bluesy there. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Yes, I've heard that interview.

His "singing" voice was high-pitched, because it was very limited to begin with and he couldn't reach all the notes. They had two choices, play everything in different keys (difficult when none of them could really play well) or find a way to bring the vocals into the same range as the music.

17 Dec 2001, 17:42

While we're on the subject of "songs lost and found", I wonder what you think of Ceremony. The Birmingham version sounds completely washed out, as though the song has no nuance, and the New Order version (specifically, the one on Substance) really sounds like Bernard Sumner: more emotive and pleading, less willful and driven.

I may be the only one in this view, but I like the rehearsal tapes version from the H&S boxed set, even with the vocals 'funneled through a tube' as they sound. What about you?

17 Dec 2001, 19:44

Originally posted by Morris Fan While we're on the subject of "songs lost and found", I wonder what you think of Ceremony. The Birmingham version sounds completely washed out, as though the song has no nuance, and the New Order version (specifically, the one on Substance) really sounds like Bernard Sumner: more emotive and pleading, less willful and driven.I may be the only one in this view, but I like the rehearsal tapes version from the H&S boxed set, even with the vocals 'funneled through a tube' as they sound. What about you?

To be honest I can't think of Ceremony as a Joy Division song, even after hearing the rehearsal tape. The only live version was so far from the finished article. I don't even look at the lyrics and think of them as being Curtis lyrics, it's become such a New Order song that evolved from an idea Joy Division had. The JD version is little removed in terms of completeness from that "Gimme Your Heart" that appeared at Erics in 1979 and was promptly ditched.

17 Dec 2001, 19:50

I like the JD versions as well - but as Mr J has just pointed out - I still feel Ceremony is a New Order song - mainly the original version - I know what you mean about the one on Substance :nod: All-time Classic without doubt!!

17 Dec 2001, 20:20

Originally posted by Socrates El Orificio Ectoplasm To be honest I can't think of Ceremony as a Joy Division song... The JD version is little removed in terms of completeness from that "Gimme Your Heart" that appeared at Erics in 1979 and was promptly ditched.

I've heard the "Gimme Your Heart", and I was under the impression this was a cover of another band's song, much as JD covered the Velvet Underground's "Sister Ray".

Even more directly, I can't imagine Joy Division writing a song called "Gimme Your Heart" - their song titles are always more abstract, even on emotive pieces like "Atmosphere" and, to wit, "Ceremony".

But in any case, I think the Ceremony rehearsal on the box set is quite a bit more fleshed out than it seems. The drumming in particular goes through several stages - it's fully formed. The guitars are both with it. The only thing missing is well-sung lyrics, but that seems to be the fault of the tape machine, not Ian Curtis.

Perhaps I'm so much a Joy Division fan, and not a strong New Order fan, that as soon as I hear a decent JD version of Ceremony, I view it then and forever as a Joy Division song...

17 Dec 2001, 23:19

Originally posted by Morris Fan > Originally posted by Socrates El Orificio Ectoplasm> Ian's vocals were lowered to give him that resonance - he actually sounded like Ashley off Coronation Street !!

In each concert? Also, I'm in the US, so who's Ashley?

I happened to actually have heard the audience tape of the Birmingham concert. (Back in the Napster era the full concert was posted - I feel lucky to have heard Ceremony at the soundcheck, despite the atrocious sound quality.) I'll listen to it again for the keyboard effects.