Bells on Who's Joe

There's been a raging debate between Parma Mick and me about whether there are bells to be heard from 0:15 to 0:45 on Who's Joe. (But we're in total agreement about the sequenced banjo on ITYS.) So, in order to shed some light on that question, what do you hear?

Could the gentleman please clarify that the 'bells' are an audible item beyond the 'synthetic metallic' timbre wistfully occupying the initial melody?

Huntsman wrote: Could the gentleman please clarify that the 'bells' are an audible item beyond the 'synthetic metallic' timbre wistfully occupying the initial melody?

In response to the gentleman's request for clarification, the aforementioned bells in issue are not separate from the "synthetic metal" occupying the initial melody. The bells at issue are the items carrying the melody during the specified period of time. The question up for debate is whether, to your ears, the "synthetic metal" sounds like bells. As noted elsewhere, if one were to consult the lyrics page for Who's Joe, one would see a quotation attributed to SM, purportedly a member of the band, referring to "clangy" sounds on this track. In common usage, the term "clangy" is often associated with bells.

I hope the foregoing was responsive to the gentleman's request for clarification.

ShugZV© wrote: I am hearing the bells....but it is the downloaded bootleg copy here at work

Thanks very much for your input, Shug. I felt sure that I could count on you. The member from Corby has cast his vote.

I've registered a vote for the bells. I believe the metallic sound has the necessary wavelength to form a bell sound.

Whether the bell has a meaning beyond the positioning in the mix to register against the other elements is again open to interpretation.

Huntsman wrote: I've registered a vote for the bells. I believe the metallic sound has the necessary wavelength to form a bell sound.

Whether the bell has a meaning beyond the positioning in the mix to register against the other elements is again open to interpretation.

Yes, H, I tried to avoid injecting any additional interpretative issues into the question, beyond the mere bells/no bells question. Once there's been a decision on this point, we can move on to debate the consequences of that decision.

Thank you very much for your input, H. The gentleman from ???? has cast his vote.

ShugZV© wrote:

Patrick wrote:

ShugZV© wrote: I am hearing the bells....but it is the downloaded bootleg copy here at work

Thanks very much for your input, Shug. I felt sure that I could count on you. The member from Corby has cast his vote.

Now I am intrigued to know what our Italian comprade believes the bells to be! Surely not a big Triangle?

I will have to let him speak for himself, Shug. Which I have no doubt he will do.

Only three votes so far? On this important issue of the day?

It's a keyboard programmed in the range that we associate with the sound of a bell. It also continues under the vocals for some of the first verse and reappears at 2.30 to 2.45. And at 5.02 to the end of the song.

Kevin Smith wrote: It's a keyboard programmed in the range that we associate with the sound of a bell. It also continues under the vocals for some of the first verse and reappears at 2.30 to 2.45. And at 5.02 to the end of the song.

Should we count that as a "yes"?

That other noise restricted to the area of the track specified sounds like synthesised drums to produce a sound similar to a large piece of metallic being whacked. A bell would give a clang of some decription, regardless of how deep the tone is and there is no clang present.

Patrick wrote:

Kevin Smith wrote: It's a keyboard programmed in the range that we associate with the sound of a bell. It also continues under the vocals for some of the first verse and reappears at 2.30 to 2.45. And at 5.02 to the end of the song.

Should we count that as a "yes"?

I don't know. It's not a bell per se but a bell like sound

Kevin Smith wrote: That other noise restricted to the area of the track specified sounds like synthesised drums to produce a sound similar to a large piece of metallic being whacked. A bell would give a clang of some decription, regardless of how deep the tone is and there is no clang present.

Well, I guess I need to listen again with these comments in mind. But thanks for your input, Kevin.

I voted a yes for you Patrick, albeit more of a vote of confidence in your poll-posting techniques. You're doing just great.

I guess it's a synthetic bell sound, nothing that's likely to put a hunchback out of a job.

:\pimp3:

What are you trying to say?

Same as Shug. At work hearing the bells from the downloaded copy.

depthcharge wrote: I voted a yes for you Patrick, albeit more of a vote of confidence in your poll-posting techniques. You're doing just great.

I guess it's a synthetic bell sound, nothing that's likely to put a hunchback out of a job.

:\pimp3:

Thank you, DC. I considered saying that an additional reason for doing this poll was to demonstrate to you that I had the technical capability. Since I wasn't entirely sure I did, I refrained from saying this sooner.

Ally3000 wrote: I may be in the minority here but I simply don't hear "bells" as in the ones that feature on Krafty. To me the notes played at that time interval of Who's Joe? sound like they're played on a electric guitar high up the fretboard (picked with plectrum) Maybe it's a combination of a guitar and a subtle keyboard line? But I'm convinced a guitar is in there somewhere for that melody line.

I have no idea if that's right but the gigs will clear this one up pretty quickly I would imagine.

Ally.

Thanks for your input, Ally.

NObabe wrote: Same as Shug. At work hearing the bells from the downloaded copy.

Thank you, M.

Although it appears the votes don't quite add up.

Oops! Sorry! Done! ;)

NObabe wrote: Oops! Sorry! Done! ;)

A very big thank you to my favorite female NOOLer. :D

You're welcome, P! 5:1 for bells now. :)

Are you guys talking about the main melody that's being played, starting at 0:15?

If so, that instrument is a Rhodes electric piano, or a synthesized version of one.

Chicken, I've never heard no Fender Rhodes which sounded like a distressed metallic bell!? ... are you smoking nettles or something?

charles wrote: Are you guys talking about the main melody that's being played, starting at 0:15?

If so, that instrument is a Rhodes electric piano, or a synthesized version of one.

Just to be clear, we are talking about the main melody during that section. At least I am.

i've definitely heard Rhodes pianos sound like that before. in my computer synth software, there are Rhodes patches that sound exactly like that.

the attack of the instrument in question is too clean to be a plucked guitar. sounds like a Rhodes, on a high octave, with a bit of a chorus effect with a tiny touch of vibrato. possibly a touch of distortion or gain to make it chime a little more.

My main interest is not in precisely how the sound was produced but rather whether it was intended to sound like a bell.

well, you can tweak the settings on rhodes pianos to sound bell-like.

listen to this sample. it's not exactly like the sound on "who's joe?" but it's similar in ways:

http://www.platinumloops.co.uk/demos/keyboard_samples/rhodesriffseven140b.wav

Patrick wrote: My main interest is not in precisely how the sound was produced but rather whether it was intended to sound like a bell.

Well now that you've clarified the question is this way, I feel able to cast my vote. The intention is certainly to sound bell-like, although I doubt that they really want anyone to believe that it is actually a bell (even electro-pioneers would use a bell for that).

What a relief, this has been troubling me all day.

Has the bell a symbolic meaning? It rings at the start of the album. A call to prayer? A warning of sorts?

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote: My main interest is not in precisely how the sound was produced but rather whether it was intended to sound like a bell.

Well now that you've clarified the question is this way, I feel able to cast my vote. The intention is certainly to sound bell-like, although I doubt that they really want anyone to believe that it is actually a bell (even electro-pioneers would use a bell for that).

What a relief, this has been troubling me all day.

Has the bell a symbolic meaning? It rings at the start of the album. A call to prayer? A warning of sorts?

My personal view, BIGINOIL, is that the intended effect is funeral bells.

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote: My main interest is not in precisely how the sound was produced but rather whether it was intended to sound like a bell.

Well now that you've clarified the question is this way, I feel able to cast my vote. The intention is certainly to sound bell-like, although I doubt that they really want anyone to believe that it is actually a bell (even electro-pioneers would use a bell for that).

What a relief, this has been troubling me all day.

Has the bell a symbolic meaning? It rings at the start of the album. A call to prayer? A warning of sorts?

My personal view, BIGINOIL, is that the intended effect is funeral bells.

Is that an expandable view, or one of those little view-ettes?

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote: My main interest is not in precisely how the sound was produced but rather whether it was intended to sound like a bell.

Well now that you've clarified the question is this way, I feel able to cast my vote. The intention is certainly to sound bell-like, although I doubt that they really want anyone to believe that it is actually a bell (even electro-pioneers would use a bell for that).

What a relief, this has been troubling me all day.

Has the bell a symbolic meaning? It rings at the start of the album. A call to prayer? A warning of sorts?

My personal view, BIGINOIL, is that the intended effect is funeral bells.

Is that an expandable view, or one of those little view-ettes?

It's part of my view that WFTSC is a concept album. It starts with funeral bells, in Who's Joe, then basically the rest of the album is a flashback of the life of the person whose funeral the bells announce, and climaxes in Turn with the death of that person. Track 11 is the wake. Or perhaps track 11 is the afterlife (hell, maybe).

That's my theory.

Another theory is that WFTSC is based on The Odyssey. These theories are not mututally exclusive.

Patrick wrote: It's part of my view that WFTSC is a concept album.

Didn't you post this theory in full elsewhere?

I remember reading something along those lines.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote: It's part of my view that WFTSC is a concept album.

Didn't you post this theory in full elsewhere?

I remember reading something along those lines.

I've referred to it in various places. I don't know that there has ever been a very lengthy discussion.

I have a theory that it's an adaptation of Joyce's Ulysses, but transposed to modern day Manchester. I'll sleep on this and expound upon it sometime soon. I know at least Patsy will look forward to seeing it.

:\pimp3:

depthcharge wrote: I have a theory that it's an adaptation of Joyce's Ulysses, but transposed to modern day Manchester. I'll sleep on this and expound upon it sometime soon. I know at least Patsy will look forward to seeing it.

:\pimp3:

I look forward to that as well.

Patrick wrote: I've referred to it in various places. I don't know that there has ever been a very lengthy discussion.

Someone posted a long description a while ago, about the time that the abum was first being circulated. I'll have a look for it.

depthcharge wrote: I have a theory that it's an adaptation of Joyce's Ulysses, but transposed to modern day Manchester. I'll sleep on this and expound upon it sometime soon. I know at least Patsy will look forward to seeing it.

:\pimp3:

I assure you I will, DC.

I think we should have less bells and more money for public schools!

This issue will be part of my upcoming campaign platform. VOTE POPE in 2005.

Ally3000 wrote: It would appear nobody else thinks it might be a guitar

Ally.

There is also guitar playing alongside it.

At this point I shall declare that I am using a high end naim-audio set up.

If the vinyl ever fucking turns up I will play it on the Linn Sondek and give you a definitive answer.

Kevin Smith wrote:

Ally3000 wrote: It would appear nobody else thinks it might be a guitar

Ally.

There is also guitar playing alongside it.

At this point I shall declare that I am using a high end naim-audio set up.

If the vinyl ever fucking turns up I will play it on the Linn Sondek and give you a definitive answer.

I look forward to that. And I'm sure you do too.

It's a synth playing a bell type sound with a bit of delay added. No guitars until after the drums come in. Could be layered, could be one synth. The only one who knows for certain would be whomever did the programming. More than likely the bells have no symbolic meaning other than the fact they add to the slow, almost suspensful, buildup for the first song. If you think about it, Who's Joe would sound kind of lame if it just startd out of the blue to kick everything off. The intro is quite nice and adds production value as well as a sensory delight for the ears.

Bentley wrote: More than likely the bells have no symbolic meaning other than the fact they add to the slow, almost suspensful, buildup for the first song.

Do you have any specific reasons for believing this to be the case?

...I indeedly dislike 'bells' on NEW order recordings... (except on 'The Perfect Kiss') ...and I have to vote for it, 'cause there's something click or similar audible...

The Saviour wrote: ...I indeedly dislike 'bells' on NEW order recordings... ...and I have to vote for it, 'cause there's something click or similar audible....

I think you may have voted yes for the wrong reason; I'm not asking about the "click" that's discussed in another thread.

... now I'm completely confused, please could somebody bring my a Whiskey ?...

The Saviour wrote: ... now I'm completely confused, please could somebody bring my a Whiskey ?...

If I had one, I'd be glad to give it to you.

Patrick wrote:

Kevin Smith wrote: It's a keyboard programmed in the range that we associate with the sound of a bell. It also continues under the vocals for some of the first verse and reappears at 2.30 to 2.45. And at 5.02 to the end of the song.

Should we count that as a "yes"?

*No, Patrick, this way it's even more confusing... the sound Kevin means here is actually the keyboard playing the tune we can all hear, and of course it doesn't sound like bells at all, more like a jazz electric guitar maybe... The sound we're talking about, I think you'll agree wether it's bells or not, it's the sound he later described as sounding like a big piece of metal being hit... Furthermore, only with headphones, I can actually hear the clangy sound I think Steve's referring to, and it sounds more like Japanese bells sampled, remixed, looped, filtered and reduced to a distant echo not slow enough to be a funeral...

Mick Aneworderfan wrote:

Patrick wrote:

Kevin Smith wrote: It's a keyboard programmed in the range that we associate with the sound of a bell. It also continues under the vocals for some of the first verse and reappears at 2.30 to 2.45. And at 5.02 to the end of the song.

Should we count that as a "yes"?

*No, Patrick, this way it's even more confusing... the sound Kevin means here is actually the keyboard playing the tune we can all hear, and of course it doesn't sound like bells at all, more like a jazz electric guitar maybe... The sound we're talking about, I think you'll agree wether it's bells or not, it's the sound he later described as sounding like a big piece of metal being hit... Furthermore, only with headphones, I can actually hear the clangy sound I think Steve's referring to, and it sounds more like Japanese bells sampled, remixed, looped, filtered and reduced to a distant echo not slow enough to be a funeral...

Did you vote no twice, Mick? the last time I checked there were only two no votes and now there are four.

Well it sounds slow enough to be a funeral to ME.....

The more I listen to Joe the more I'm convinced it's a guitar only it sounds pretty much like the bells but it's definitely not the keyboard sound.

NObabe wrote: The more I listen to Joe the more I'm convinced it's a guitar only it sounds pretty much like the bells but it's definitely not the keyboard sound.

Whatever it is I feel sure it's what SM means when he refers to a "clangy" sound.

Patrick wrote:

Bentley wrote: More than likely the bells have no symbolic meaning other than the fact they add to the slow, almost suspensful, buildup for the first song.

Do you have any specific reasons for believing this to be the case?

Because the song would sound naked without an intro. It's production. For the bells to have meaning, the strings, and other synths during the intro would have to have meaning as well. Let's look at it from a mix perspective... you want to provide the listener with a build up into the first song so that it just doesn't start out of nowhere. Adding an intro to set tone of the first song and to add a touch of suspense is nothing new. Here, they've simply used a common sound(synth bell sound)during the intro that's present throughout the entire mix so that the intro doesn't sound out of place with the rest of the song. Why did they use this particular sound? Because the person who programmed it insisted it go on the record? Because they were forced at gunpoint? Because Barney's chirping bird sound just didn't fit the mood? It's all about the art of orchestrating and mixing a song. Could there be deeper meaning? Certainly, but that's up to the listener to decide or the band to explain it. Me... I think it's just a sound they used as part of the production because it lends itself nicely to the arrangement and mood. That's just my opinion though... to each his own :)

Bentley wrote:

Patrick wrote:

Bentley wrote: More than likely the bells have no symbolic meaning other than the fact they add to the slow, almost suspensful, buildup for the first song.

Do you have any specific reasons for believing this to be the case?

Because the song would sound naked without an intro. It's production. For the bells to have meaning, the strings, and other synths during the intro would have to have meaning as well. Let's look at it from a mix perspective... you want to provide the listener with a build up into the first song so that it just doesn't start out of nowhere. Adding an intro to set tone of the first song and to add a touch of suspense is nothing new. Here, they've simply used a common sound(synth bell sound)during the intro that's present throughout the entire mix so that the intro doesn't sound out of place with the rest of the song. Why did they use this particular sound? Because the person who programmed it insisted it go on the record? Because they were forced at gunpoint? Because Barney's chirping bird sound just didn't fit the mood? It's all about the art of orchestrating and mixing a song. Could there be deeper meaning? Certainly, but that's up to the listener to decide or the band to explain it. Me... I think it's just a sound they used as part of the production because it lends itself nicely to the arrangement and mood. That's just my opinion though... to each his own :)

Yes, of course, as I've said already today, everyone is certainly entitled to his or her own opinion. I think they're funeral bells and you don't. That's fine.

Patrick wrote: Yes, of course, as I've said already today, everyone is certainly entitled to his or her own opinion. I think they're funeral bells and you don't. That's fine.

Right... you also asked for specifics on my part so... there they were. ;) Cheers!

I'm not saying that any of you are wrong, but now the bells have been pointed out to me, I have become convinced that it is symbolic of a ships bell.

I have no idea whether ships have bells, and if so what they are used for.

Wouldn't they just clack about as soon as the ship hit the water and keep everyone awake at night?

A bell on a ship? What a stupid idea.

And why would New Order put one at the start of their new album..?

i'm still confused about the question...

i asked earlier if Patrick was referring to the melody being played in the intro, and he said "yes."

why's everyone going on about background noise and clanging?

I tried to imitate the "Who's Joe?" intro melody with my synthesizer. I used a Rhodes MkII patch, with a slight tremolo effect, a little bit of distortion, and some reverb. It comes pretty close to the sound, although it's not as natural sounding. I'm willing to bet NO used a real Rhodes in the studio. Here's an mp3 file of what I did:

http://www.onetransmission.com/mp3/who's%20joe%20intro.mp3

also, here's another mp3 sample i posted earlier with a bell-like Rhodes piano sound:

http://www.platinumloops.co.uk/demos/keyboard_samples/rhodesriffseven140b.wav

I tend to agree with Bentley. It's a great intro to the album that sets a somber mood that is sustained throughout the album (particularly in turn), which is why Overtime seems so out of place.

It also contrasts nicely with the fuzzier, grungier guitar on the song. They may have also wanted to invoke a ship-bell sound to associate the first song with the sailing theme the Siren's Call raises.

I can't decide if it's a synth or guitar. The bell-like sound from 4:16 to 4:30 causes me to lean toward synth. Of course, New Order could make a guitar sound like a synth playing bells or a synth sound like a guitar playing bells or bells sound like a synth or guitar playing bells. The wonderful things you can do with technology and music.

Bentley wrote:

Patrick wrote: Yes, of course, as I've said already today, everyone is certainly entitled to his or her own opinion. I think they're funeral bells and you don't. That's fine.

Right... you also asked for specifics on my part so... there they were. ;) Cheers!

You're absolutely right, Bentley, I asked for specifics, and you gave me a very specific and well-reasoned response, and I should have thanked you for that. I do now! Thanks!:) And I apologize for not saying this earlier.:(

BIGINOIL wrote: I'm not saying that any of you are wrong, but now the bells have been pointed out to me, I have become convinced that it is symbolic of a ships bell.

I have no idea whether ships have bells, and if so what they are used for.

Wouldn't they just clack about as soon as the ship hit the water and keep everyone awake at night?

A bell on a ship? What a stupid idea.

And why would New Order put one at the start of their new album..?

As ericpear notes after your post, a ship's bell would be extremely apt in light of the voyaging theme of the album.

Kevin Smith wrote: It's a keyboard programmed in the range that we associate with the sound of a bell. It also continues under the vocals for some of the first verse and reappears at 2.30 to 2.45. And at 5.02 to the end of the song.

This is just to confirm that the sound I am referring to does in fact reappear at 2:30 to 2:45, although there is also a rather prominent guitar in that section.

I have been Googling ships' bells, and now know that they are not just in my imagination. The bell is rung to signal the changing of through the ship's watch (lookout, not wrist-worn timepeice). At first, the bell was chimed manually, latterly a clock would chime automatically at the correct intervals. The ship's bell at the start of WFTSC is automated, which explains the faint whirring and clicking that is heard before the chimes themselves.

The more I think about, BIGINOIL, the more I like your ship's bell idea. In fact, it's not at all incompatible with the funeral bell interpretation. It could be a little bit of both. A funeral ship taking you to the land of the dead.

Patrick wrote: The more I think about, BIGINOIL, the more I like your ship's bell idea. In fact, it's not at all incompatible with the funeral bell interpretation. It could be a little bit of both. A funeral ship taking you to the land of the dead.

I am sure they had both theories in mind throughout production, sir.

Patrick wrote: The more I think about, BIGINOIL, the more I like your ship's bell idea. In fact, it's not at all incompatible with the funeral bell interpretation. It could be a little bit of both. A funeral ship taking you to the land of the dead.

But Patrick, we believe in the land of love.

:\pimp3:

depthcharge wrote:

Patrick wrote: The more I think about, BIGINOIL, the more I like your ship's bell idea. In fact, it's not at all incompatible with the funeral bell interpretation. It could be a little bit of both. A funeral ship taking you to the land of the dead.

But Patrick, we believe in the land of love.

:\pimp3:

Are you trying to suggest, DC, that you think it's not a funeral ship? There's clearly a lot of partying going on in WFTSC also.

Are you still working on your episode-by-episode comparison of WFTSC and Joyce's Ulysses?

Frankly I'm aghast that you appear to have missed the TPK reference.

:\pimp3:

It's funny, but if you read from beginning to end this thread runs like a frustrating comedy routine where Pastie has to keep everything under control until the boss gets home: 'No, don't press that!', 'Oi!, stop it', 'Hey! - I said the red one not the blue one, pay attention!'.

Whether or not the bell is symbolic of a funeral or a ships presence should not detract from the simple fact that yes indeed, the initial synthetic melody is played by a bell-like instrument. My bet is that NO selected a present synth patch and applied some simple editing to purify the tone to a cold, typical NO sound.

Plain and simple.

depthcharge wrote: Frankly I'm aghast that you appear to have missed the TPK reference.

:\pimp3:

What does TPK have to do with WFTSC, DC, apart from the one obvious thing?

Huntsman wrote: It's funny, but if you read from beginning to end this thread runs like a frustrating comedy routine where Pastie has to keep everything under control until the boss gets home: 'No, don't press that!', 'Oi!, stop it', 'Hey! - I said the red one not the blue one, pay attention!'.

Whether or not the bell is symbolic of a funeral or a ships presence should not detract from the simple fact that yes indeed, the initial synthetic melody is played by a bell-like instrument. My bet is that NO selected a present synth patch and applied some simple editing to purify the tone to a cold, typical NO sound.

Plain and simple.

If we spend this much time on each 30-second stretch of the album, we'll be here all day.

I was thinking of doing a poll on the end of track 1, but it appears that this one hasn't begun to run its course.

With suggestions as far ranging as 'jazz guitar' to 'Fender Rhodes' you sometimes wonder.

Nobody seems to have picked up on, or mentioned the 'low-octave' bell-like heavy breathing on the closing seconds.

P, I didn't read your last post on the previous page before I administered the above.

Is that 'beyond coincidence' (the book I am currently firmly absconded within).

Huntsman wrote: P, I didn't read your last post on the previous page before I administered the above.

Is that 'beyond coincidence' (the book I am currently firmly absconded within).

Actually, H, I thought I had made reference to that sound previously. I think of it as "the sound of a monster breathing." The last time I mentioned it, nobody was interested.

It's not wholly coincidental, H. The beginning of track 1 and the end of track 1 are not unrelated. But of course you are right that it is a striking coincidence that we should both bring it up at precisely the same time.

Not such a coincidence to some of us ...

:\pimp3:

I wonder if it would be at all relevant to crowbar in the highlights of the last few pages of the coincidence book, the subject matter itself, quite coincidental.

The book 'The Titan' and the coincidences with the doomed ship 'The Titanic'.

Is that a coincidence?

Huntsman wrote: I wonder if it would be at all relevant to crowbar in the highlights of the last few pages of the coincidence book, the subject matter itself, quite coincidental.

The book 'The Titan' and the coincidences with the doomed ship 'The Titanic'.

Is that a coincidence?

Are you claiming, H, that WFTSC is really a remake of Titanic, with Orlando in the Leo role?

I'm not certain that the consuming doom of the Titanic tragedy envelopes the dreamscapes of the NO album.

I do think there is much scope for some kind of Greek mythological movie with sensible appropriation of cgi effects for the monsters. In fact, I've been championing this for years.

Patrick wrote:

Huntsman wrote: I wonder if it would be at all relevant to crowbar in the highlights of the last few pages of the coincidence book, the subject matter itself, quite coincidental.

The book 'The Titan' and the coincidences with the doomed ship 'The Titanic'.

Is that a coincidence?

Are you claiming, H, that WFTSC is really a remake of Titanic, with Orlando in the Leo role?

...and that the ringing of the ship's bell is not to signal the change of watchman, but in fact the watchman ringing to alert the crew to something?

What's all the clicking and whirring about then?

Huntsman wrote: I'm not certain that the consuming doom of the Titanic tragedy envelopes the dreamscapes of the NO album.

I do think there is much scope for some kind of Greek mythological movie with sensible appropriation of cgi effects for the monsters. In fact, I've been championing this for years.

Are you talking about Clash of the Titans, H?

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

Huntsman wrote: I wonder if it would be at all relevant to crowbar in the highlights of the last few pages of the coincidence book, the subject matter itself, quite coincidental.

The book 'The Titan' and the coincidences with the doomed ship 'The Titanic'.

Is that a coincidence?

Are you claiming, H, that WFTSC is really a remake of Titanic, with Orlando in the Leo role?

...and that the ringing of the ship's bell is not to signal the change of watchman, but in fact the watchman ringing to alert the crew to something?

What's all the clicking and whirring about then?

As I've acknowledged, Big, your revolutionary insight requires me to reexamine everything from scratch.

I need to listen to the entire album, and especially track 1 of course, from a new perspective.

It's a brave new world. And a new day.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

Huntsman wrote: I wonder if it would be at all relevant to crowbar in the highlights of the last few pages of the coincidence book, the subject matter itself, quite coincidental.

The book 'The Titan' and the coincidences with the doomed ship 'The Titanic'.

Is that a coincidence?

Are you claiming, H, that WFTSC is really a remake of Titanic, with Orlando in the Leo role?

...and that the ringing of the ship's bell is not to signal the change of watchman, but in fact the watchman ringing to alert the crew to something?

What's all the clicking and whirring about then?

It could be that the bell heard ringing on 'the ship', is simply the call for sailors to return from feasting on light snacks in the city centre.

The clicking and whirring could be appropriated to the shoes of the co-pilot, who was persistently warned against size 8's.

Alas, I have only the bootlegs here in the office. Their quality, and the quality of my reproductive equipment, is far too poor to listen for the nuances being discussed here.

I thank you for your kind words. Some exciting theories are being put forward by many people on this forum, and I am proud to be contributing in some small way.

I tried to find that post where a correspondent provided his own interpretation of the whole album. It was quite a frantic read, and at one point he concluded that Morning Night and Day proved that Barney is a COCAINE ADDICT. I remember those words, and the use of capitals, but little else about the ‘review’.

Does anyone else remember this?

I don't remember "cocaine addict," Big. But there is something in The Odyssey about lotus-eating, isn't there? As I've made clear, I think you've made an extremely important contribution to this collaborative effort of ours, Big, and I very much look forward to working closely with you on an ongoing basis.

After Big came up with his earthshaking insight about the ship's bell, H, it did occur to me that an occasion for a ship's bell to ring would be the sort of occasion you describe.

Or perhaps if there was a menacing giant squid spotted at starboard? I'd imagine that'd be worth a few frantic clangs.

Can someone satisfy my curiosity over who BIGINOIL was in a previous life - or avatar? He seems to have chalked up a few data entries but I can't place the tone or location.

:\pimp3:

It's only after such a left-of-field input has been submitted that you can extend the boundaries of the concept, which leads onto theories of theories. Without Big N, we may not have steered our vessel to even the thought of a ship after being so entrenched in the clanging bells seemingly ringing from a church tower.

A ships bell is rang, like a cars horn, to expedite presence, or to beckon someone, something or a collection of cheeses. I suspect that the initial bells are the Sirens calling from the rocks, with the ship the target of the lure as it potters across the crystal sea.

Likewise, it would be fairly pleasant to unearth the former name of the big friendly gentile.

Yes, DC, a giant squid, or perhaps the creature heard breathing at the end of track 1.

Whoever Big is, his presence is most welcome. He's also pretty good on lyrics.

You mentioned, H, that you'd been discussing the Odyssey parallel with an expert. Anything more to relate on that?

depthcharge wrote:

Can someone satisfy my curiosity over who BIGINOIL was in a previous life - or avatar? He seems to have chalked up a few data entries but I can't place the tone or location.

:\pimp3:

I was previously known as ct001, and my picture appeared as vertical blue lines (actually marine cables in rare North Sea sunlight).

I was re-christened by Rocket Mick a while ago, and changed my avatar to the spurting one at that time.

I am normally drunk on here, posting on the silly side during the evening. The normal site address is blocked by the internet filter in my office, but this temporary URL is allowed through. This explains my sudden appearance during the day, and also why I will dissapear into the night once the hosting is sorted and this URL is removed. Of course, I could be sacked from my job for arsing around in chatrooms when I should be working. I will then sit at home and post all day.

What was Rocket Mick's epiphany that had you christened as an oily one?

:\pimp3:

Patrick wrote: Yes, DC, a giant squid, or perhaps the creature heard breathing at the end of track 1.

Whoever Big is, his presence is most welcome. He's also pretty good on lyrics.

You mentioned, H, that you'd been discussing the Odyssey parallel with an expert. Anything more to relate on that?

The expert discussion prompted the recent thread on 'the concept', where I was hopeful to take a crystalized version back to the lab for further analysis.

From memory, there is a beggar in the story which could relate to Joseph, 'gold' tipped arrows were in use, a divine 'jet steam' of wind powered souls back to base, the protagonists dropped into some form of Hades-type castle ... as we listened to each track, a Greek equivalent was cited.

depthcharge wrote: What was Rocket Mick's epiphany that had you christened as an oily one?

:\pimp3:

Well under 'occupation' in my profile I had put "Big in Oil". This was more for my own amusement as anyone's; my work is connected to the oil industry. I often joke that I am a 'big man in oil', like JR or Burt Lancaster in Local Hero. I asked Rocket if he could come up with a new name for me and he did.

For a while I was Peter North, because Digital Mike saw my new avatar and thought that suck a glorious spurt could come from only one man. I found the life of a porn star very tiring though, and changed it back.

Huntsman wrote:

Patrick wrote: Yes, DC, a giant squid, or perhaps the creature heard breathing at the end of track 1.

Whoever Big is, his presence is most welcome. He's also pretty good on lyrics.

You mentioned, H, that you'd been discussing the Odyssey parallel with an expert. Anything more to relate on that?

The expert discussion prompted the recent thread on 'the concept', where I was hopeful to take a crystalized version back to the lab for further analysis.

From memory, there is a beggar in the story which could relate to Joseph, 'gold' tipped arrows were in use, a divine 'jet steam' of wind powered souls back to base, the protagonists dropped into some form of Hades-type castle ... as we listened to each track, a Greek equivalent was cited.

That all sounds extremely promising, H. I hope the next time you and the expert listen to the album together, there is a pen and paper handy to take notes on the parallels.

BIGINOIL wrote:

depthcharge wrote: What was Rocket Mick's epiphany that had you christened as an oily one?

:\pimp3:

Well under 'occupation' in my profile I had put "Big in Oil". This was more for my own amusement as anyone's; my work is connected to the oil industry. I often joke that I am a 'big man in oil', like JR or Burt Lancaster in Local Hero. I asked Rocket if he could come up with a new name for me and he did.

For a while I was Peter North, because Digital Mike saw my new avatar and thought that suck a glorious spurt could come from only one man. I found the life of a porn star very tiring though, and changed it back.

For ease of reference, gentle sir, do you mind if we call you "Big"?

BIGINOIL wrote:

depthcharge wrote: What was Rocket Mick's epiphany that had you christened as an oily one?

:\pimp3:

Well under 'occupation' in my profile I had put "Big in Oil". This was more for my own amusement as anyone's; my work is connected to the oil industry. I often joke that I am a 'big man in oil', like JR or Burt Lancaster in Local Hero. I asked Rocket if he could come up with a new name for me and he did.

For a while I was Peter North, because Digital Mike saw my new avatar and thought that suck a glorious spurt could come from only one man. I found the life of a porn star very tiring though, and changed it back.

This is may seem inappropriate, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the human oil pumper has one or two conveniently sensational stories to relate about ghost sightings.

...

BIGINOIL wrote: I often joke that I am a 'big man in oil', like JR or Burt Lancaster in Local Hero. I asked Rocket if he could come up with a new name for me and he did.

For a while I was Peter North, because Digital Mike saw my new avatar and thought that suck a glorious spurt could come from only one man. I found the life of a porn star very tiring though, and changed it back.

Local Hero: that's it! A film that reminds me of Marske-by-Sea! An exciting development.

I do remember you as Peter North, who could forget. But perhaps your tone has changed with your persona, I don't recall 'The North Pole' being quite so erudite.

Although that could all be rubbish, I seem to be misreading every man and his raccoon today.

:\pimp3:

Call him Biggy if you like, at least that's what I call him

With apologies for bringing another issue into this fine discussion, the following has just occurred to me.

In one of the pre-release interviews, Barney revealed that Who's Joe was about a tramp called Joe. This came as no surprise to me, a tramp having taken a key role in the most recent New Order related work.

In 24-Hour Party People Christopher Ecclestone (the new Dr Who Time Lord) plays a tramp that quotes some Boethius at Wilson under a railway arch near Whitworth St. The passage quoted is the "Wheel of Fortune" passage that is referred to by the Wilson charatcter elsewhere in the film.

I have drawn no conclusions from my observation, I merely offer it as a point to ponder or ignore.

NObabe wrote: Call him Biggy if you like, at least that's what I call him

I like it when she calls me that, but would ask all male members to refrain from such.

Big is fine.

depthcharge wrote: I don't recall 'The North Pole' being quite so erudite.

I am normally quite drunk when on here - perhaps that explains the change.

No ghost stories, but I would be quite happy to make some up if required.

Excuse me, I am clearly hogging this thread. I will withdraw for a while to let it regain it's rightful course.

BIGINOIL wrote:

NObabe wrote: Call him Biggy if you like, at least that's what I call him

I like it when she calls me that, but would ask all male members to refrain from such.

Big is fine.

Done!

BIGINOIL wrote: With apologies for bringing another issue into this fine discussion, the following has just occurred to me.

In one of the pre-release interviews, Barney revealed that Who's Joe was about a tramp called Joe. This came as no surprise to me, a tramp having taken a key role in the most recent New Order related work.

In 24-Hour Party People Christopher Ecclestone (the new Dr Who Time Lord) plays a tramp that quotes some Boethius at Wilson under a railway arch near Whitworth St. The passage quoted is the "Wheel of Fortune" passage that is referred to by the Wilson charatcter elsewhere in the film.

I have drawn no conclusions from my observation, I merely offer it as a point to ponder or ignore.

As I may have said elsewhere, I took those tramp references by BS as diversionary tactics. Does anyone else have views on this point?

Or perhaps a reference to episodes where gods go around disguised as beggars?

I feel a tad disappointed when someone is so rapidly keen to fabricate a story of ghosts. I don't think they deserve such flippant treatment. No wonder they rarely come out to be photographed.

A Hindu god Katargama was known to do this but this doesn't quite fit into your point of reference, unfortunately.

In my theory, I'm seeing the beggar as more of an oracle figure.

:\pimp3:

Patrick wrote: Or perhaps a reference to episodes where gods go around disguised as beggars?

There are countless examples steeped in history P, although not all are 'gods'.

Was the wolf not disguised in Little Red Riding Hat? - Did Pinnochio not intentionally outgrow his beak simply to masquerade as Depthchariot at the Kangaroo festival back in '63 - how many Kings and Queens have wandered to their local bakery disguised by an irregular shaped mustache?

Huntsman wrote: I feel a tad disappointed when someone is so rapidly keen to fabricate a story of ghosts. I don't think they deserve such flippant treatment. No wonder they rarely come out to be photographed.

Was I in any way accurate about Local Hero, Hustler?

:\pimp3:

depthcharge wrote: A Hindu god Katargama was known to do this but this doesn't quite fit into your point of reference, unfortunately.

In my theory, I'm seeing the beggar as more of a oracle figure.

:\pimp3:

'an' oracle figure.

Can we please maintain standards.

Huntsman wrote:

Was the wolf not disguised in Little Red Riding Hat? - Did Pinnochio not intentionally outgrow his beak simply to masquerade as Depthchariot at the Kangaroo festival back in '63 - how many Kings and Queens have wandered to their local bakery disguised by an irregular shaped mustache?

This theory is fabricated on the fallacy that I have a beakish hooter.

How many yo-yo designers have walked into their local 'offie' wearing a green hat and puffing on a ciggy, attempting to get discounted sherbert, for that matter?

:\pimp3:

depthcharge wrote:

Huntsman wrote: I feel a tad disappointed when someone is so rapidly keen to fabricate a story of ghosts. I don't think they deserve such flippant treatment. No wonder they rarely come out to be photographed.

Was I in any way accurate about Local Hero, Hustler?

:\pimp3:

I was going to chip-in when Local Heroin was first broadcast but the threads span out of control and I didn't know what was left and who was right.

It is a very good film, which is probably better to digest with a smoldering bowl of tomato soup and several rounds of crusty white bread on a rainy day, possibly when a moderate cold has gripped the body. And yes, the town featured is very reminiscent of Marske-by-the-Sea, in fact, very much so.

BUT, can I point out that Gregory's Lady is a better film boasting a similar tradition of insular emotion. Although it doesn't boast a seaside setting, the sentimentality is so beautifully pitched.

Add to that Kes about the boy with the magnificent blackbird and you have quite an amazing line-up.

Huntsman wrote: I feel a tad disappointed when someone is so rapidly keen to fabricate a story of ghosts. I don't think they deserve such flippant treatment. No wonder they rarely come out to be photographed.

] I actually have two real ghost stories, but they are both far below the standard that would be suitable for posting here. I take your point about fabrication, however, and I apologise.

If mild embellishment were permitted, I could possibly make something interesting out of my Yeovil yarn...

Has anybody besides Big looked at the other thread?

BIGINOIL wrote:

Huntsman wrote: I feel a tad disappointed when someone is so rapidly keen to fabricate a story of ghosts. I don't think they deserve such flippant treatment. No wonder they rarely come out to be photographed.

] I actually have two real ghost stories, but they are both far below the standard that would be suitable for posting here. I take your point about fabrication, however, and I apologise.

If mild embellishment were permitted, I could possibly make something interesting out of my Yeovil yarn...

But of course. But please, don't add a werewolf in unless someone genuinely caught one on camera. It wouldn't be right.

Unfortunately, my library is in storage, so I don't have handy all the reference materials that would be needed to trace the theme of gods and kings disguised as beggars. Could somebody just whip up a little something on that subject? Nothing too elaborate, now.

We haven't heard the story from Big Neville about the ghosts yet P. Steady on!

Huntsman wrote: We haven't heard the story from Big Neville about the ghosts yet P. Steady on!

All right, H, I'll try to be patient.

But keep in mind that ghosts are not as high on my agenda as they are on yours.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Huntsman wrote: We haven't heard the story from Big Neville about the ghosts yet P. Steady on!

I'm working on it right now!

Huntsman wrote: I'm sorry to hear that.

But surely not surprised.

Actually the title "Who's Joe?" supports the disguise theory.

I did fear that one would get lost in translation.

I meant, sorry to hear that your missing out on that one.

Good news on Big Neville's forthcoming novella.

I might even treat myself to a biscuit.

Huntsman wrote: I did fear that one would get lost in translation.

I meant, sorry to hear that your missing out on that one.

Good news on Big Neville's forthcoming novella.

I might even treat myself to a biscuit.

A salt-free biscuit, I hope. I've been meaning to ask you, H, have you ever tried unsalted potato chips?

Patrick wrote: Actually the title "Who's Joe?" supports the disguise theory.

Yes P - yes.

I did actually say to the expert that you may contribute your theory, so that the third party can then correctly apply the relationships. I have hinted at that perhaps 1,000 times since Monday.

Huntsman wrote:

I might even treat myself to a biscuit.

Biscuits at the ready - here it comes...

Perhaps I could tell you the real story, and someone else could have a go at embellishing it:

Many years ago, I spent two weeks in a hotel in Yeovil. I was on my own, as I was working down there. The hotel had a large bar, which was normally full of local blokes drinking cider.

The locals would talk at length about the activities of the ghost which inhabited the void above the ceiling in the bar area. The ceiling had old wood panelling and the ghost would slide one of the panels about when no one was looking. Nobody would see or hear anything, and no other manifestation of the spirit was ever reported. The loose wooden panel would just be observed to have been moved from it’s rightful position, revealing the dark void above, or would be back in place. The locals were quite scared by it all.

A copulating pair in the next room kept me awake for much of one night. I saw the filthy pair having their dinner in the bar the following evening when I returned from work. I announced to the landlord that I had some information about the ghost and of course I was immediately surrounded by the locals.

I started to tell the tale about how I was prevented from sleeping by a terrible moaning sound the previous night. The effect on the room was amazing. Everyone (including the hapless pair of moaners) was rooted to the spot. Finally, after years of lousy panel-moving, their ghost was developing its repertoire. Of course, they all started asking questions. Where did the noise come from? Room eight. What did it sound like? Well a gentle moaning at first, then a panting noise that became more frantic, finally, gasping for air, then the terrible screams AGHHH AGHHH AGHHH!

Everyone in the room fell about laughing, apart from the poor couple, who left without finishing their meal and checked out the next day.

Huntsman wrote:

Patrick wrote: Actually the title "Who's Joe?" supports the disguise theory.

Yes P - yes.

I did actually say to the expert that you may contribute your theory, so that the third party can then correctly apply the relationships. I have hinted at that perhaps 1,000 times since Monday.

I thought you said some time ago, H, that you felt that I had adequately expressed the theory in general terms. What is now needed is for someone who knows the Odyssey better than I do to take my general concept and apply it on an episode-by-episode basis. I feel confident I have made that last point well more than 1,000 times, just counting today.

I would just like to point out, H, that Big is an extremely valuable resource, and you have him off doing ghost anecdotes, when he could be working on the theory. I just needed to get that off my chest. There, I feel much better.

BIGINOIL wrote: Perhaps I could tell you the real story, and someone else could have a go at embellishing it:

Many years ago ...

It's a great yarn alright - but I can't give it my full backing in light of the fact that the ghost was again the butt of the gag.

Patrick wrote: I would just like to point out, H, that Big is an extremely valuable resource, and you have him off doing ghost anecdotes, when he could be working on the theory. I just needed to get that off my chest. There, I feel much better.

Sorry, development of the theory would appear at this point to require a good working knowledge of either Boethius or the Odyssey. As I have neither, I must entertain myself while I wait for something I know about to come past again. The ghost was most certainly not the butt of the joke, the couple in the next room were. I like to think that the ghost was chuckling quietly to his or herself, perhaps even moving the wooden panel a few inches in honour of the little jape.

Well then, Big, that's fine. I think you've already done way more than your fair share today. So I think the ball is pretty clearly in H's court. Especially since he's disappointed us about his review.

I could retell a spooky tale, but all those who read it would feel strangely compelled to rent from the horror section of their local Blockbuster almost the same day.

Huntsman wrote: I could retell a spooky tale, but all those who read it would feel strangely compelled to rent from the horror section of their local Blockbuster almost the same day.

Perhaps we need a new thread on the other side for off-topic ghost stories? Hunstman shall start it with his, then I will copy my own story so he's not on his own over there. I bet we attract loads, it's the kind of thing they go for over there. Who knows, we may attract something that helps the real cause.

Get real, Biggy. Never seen those guys posting on the daft side.

Well, Big, please report back if anything turns up.

Patrick wrote: Well, Big, please report back if anything turns up.

If someone fails to notify Pastie of any extra curriculum activity down on Planet B I fear he may brew a slightly imbalanced coffee and almost ruin his entire day.

Huntsman wrote:

Patrick wrote: Well, Big, please report back if anything turns up.

If someone fails to notify Pastie of any extra curriculum activity down on Planet B I fear he may brew a slightly imbalanced coffee and almost ruin his entire day.

But how will know that I'm missing something, H?

Was that an intentional slip-up P, as one could interpret it as a missing 'I' - as in, am 'I' missing something.

Clever.

Patrick wrote:

Huntsman wrote:

Patrick wrote: Well, Big, please report back if anything turns up.

If someone fails to notify Pastie of any extra curriculum activity down on Planet B I fear he may brew a slightly imbalanced coffee and almost ruin his entire day.

But how will know that I'm missing something, H?

I will, of course, update you of any relevant activity. I strongly suspect that it will be a while before I have anything to report.

In the mean time (and strangeley "on topic") I have found the following site. It might help.

Odyssey

Thanks for both things, Big. It looks like that site could be quite helpful.

Huntsman wrote: Was that an intentional slip-up P, as one could interpret it as a missing 'I' - as in, am 'I' missing something.

Clever.

Honesty compels me to acknowledge that it was not intentional, H. I will leave it uncorrected.

Bell-like sound, yes, but what I think you're hearing is...

artificial harmonics.

That is, Mr. Guitarist Who Is Not Gillian very lightly touches the guitar string directly above the fifth, seventh, or twelfth fret and picks as usual. The vibrating guitar string is functionally split into two live sections which resonate harmonically, producing harmonic bell-like overtones. Perhaps the most famous example on record is Edge's little "solo" on U2's "Sunday Bloody Sunday".

I don't believe it's a synth due to the subtle change in timbre of the last note of the phrase, which has a high fundamental yet a lower series of harmonic overtones. A digital synth would have no problem pumping out the higher harmonics, but a guitar would choke a bit, altering the tone a bit.

What the hell did you people do without me?

Gnu Odor wrote: Bell-like sound, yes, but what I think you're hearing is...

artificial harmonics.

That is, Mr. Guitarist Who Is Not Gillian very lightly touches the guitar string directly above the fifth, seventh, or twelfth fret and picks as usual. The vibrating guitar string is functionally split into two live sections which resonate harmonically, producing harmonic bell-like overtones. Perhaps the most famous example on record is Edge's little "solo" on U2's "Sunday Bloody Sunday".

I don't believe it's a synth due to the subtle change in timbre of the last note of the phrase, which has a high fundamental yet a lower series of harmonic overtones. A digital synth would have no problem pumping out the higher harmonics, but a guitar would choke a bit, altering the tone a bit.

What the hell did you people do without me?

Thank you very much for your help, sir. Have you looked at the lyrics page where SM claims credit for the "clangy" sounds on this track?

I know exactly what the the clangy sounds is! It's... a bizzarre love triangle.

Somebody had to say it. Carry on...

Bentley wrote: I know exactly what the the clangy sounds is! It's... a bizzarre love triangle.

Somebody had to say it. Carry on...

You're right, Bentley. Somebody had to say it. Good to see you again.

Gnu Odor wrote: Bell-like sound, yes, but what I think you're hearing is...

artificial harmonics.

That is, Mr. Guitarist Who Is Not Gillian very lightly touches the guitar string directly above the fifth, seventh, or twelfth fret and picks as usual. The vibrating guitar string is functionally split into two live sections which resonate harmonically, producing harmonic bell-like overtones. Perhaps the most famous example on record is Edge's little "solo" on U2's "Sunday Bloody Sunday".

I don't believe it's a synth due to the subtle change in timbre of the last note of the phrase, which has a high fundamental yet a lower series of harmonic overtones. A digital synth would have no problem pumping out the higher harmonics, but a guitar would choke a bit, altering the tone a bit.

What the hell did you people do without me?

Effing nora, I think you're right! There's a certain twang (a very technical term used only be people who know all about these things) on the later notes.

Another thing that has come to my attention is the grouping of the chimes (I think we are now all comfortable with calling them that). I have a little theory that I will work on and post soon. It may include internet links, I hope nobody minds.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Gnu Odor wrote: Bell-like sound, yes, but what I think you're hearing is...

artificial harmonics.

That is, Mr. Guitarist Who Is Not Gillian very lightly touches the guitar string directly above the fifth, seventh, or twelfth fret and picks as usual. The vibrating guitar string is functionally split into two live sections which resonate harmonically, producing harmonic bell-like overtones. Perhaps the most famous example on record is Edge's little "solo" on U2's "Sunday Bloody Sunday".

I don't believe it's a synth due to the subtle change in timbre of the last note of the phrase, which has a high fundamental yet a lower series of harmonic overtones. A digital synth would have no problem pumping out the higher harmonics, but a guitar would choke a bit, altering the tone a bit.

What the hell did you people do without me?

Effing nora, I think you're right! There's a certain twang (a very technical term used only be people who know all about these things) on the later notes.

Another thing that has come to my attention is the grouping of the chimes (I think we are now all comfortable with calling them that). I have a little theory that I will work on and post soon. It may include internet links, I hope nobody minds.

Based on your prior contributions, Big, I am eager to hear what you have to say.

Actually, no.

I'm sick to fucking death of the first few seconds of this album now. I've listened to it about a hundred times this afternoon and there's nothing more for me to hear there. I have nothing more to say on the subject of bells. I will attempt to contribute to further discussions about possible concepts and am happy to devote time to other sections of the record, however short. I've had enough of this bit though - this is the bell end.

(Of course, the above is based on piratised .mp3 files, heard on low quality equipment. I will listen to the official release on my home system and may post more on this subject then).

Here is the link I was going to use, in case anyone is still reading...

Ships Bells

I'm not certain, but I get the distinct impression that Big Neville has had a slight reversal of interest in the bell theory.

Huntsman wrote: I'm not certain, but I get the distinct impression that Big Neville has had a slight reversal of interest in the bell theory.

I'm proud of what we've acheived, but I don't think there's much more to be said about less than one minute of the record.

When we have some live footage to go on, we could discover more. I'm really good at reading far too much into concert recordings.

I bet they open the concert by ringing an enormous bell, then the band come on dressed as Greek gods and do the album as an opera in Italian with subtitles. That would get me interested again.

For the time being...

Few have the potent stamina of P when he's in full flow - he won't rest until he's exasperated every conceivable angle, and spelt them correctly.

To be honest Biggy, you've lasted longer than I personally anticipated - but that may be more to do with your overall strength.

Yes, we have achieved a lot, but there is still a great journey ahead of us. One so long, it has bells on.

BIGINOIL wrote: Actually, no.

I'm sick to fucking death of the first few seconds of this album now. I've listened to it about a hundred times this afternoon and there's nothing more for me to hear there. I have nothing more to say on the subject of bells. I will attempt to contribute to further discussions about possible concepts and am happy to devote time to other sections of the record, however short. I've had enough of this bit though - this is the bell end.

(Of course, the above is based on piratised .mp3 files, heard on low quality equipment. I will listen to the official release on my home system and may post more on this subject then).

Here is the link I was going to use, in case anyone is still reading...

Ships Bells

I'm sorry to have been a contributor to a situation that's been the cause of such discomfort for you, Big. We will certainly not expect you to focus any more on this particular part of the album, but we remain exceedingly grateful for your valuable contributions and will welcome any future participation that you choose to offer.

You see what I mean.

I do plan to study that material you provided on The Odyssey, Big. Thanks again.

Patrick wrote: I do plan to study that material you provided on The Odyssey, Big. Thanks again.

I will also. And I will listen to the higher fidelity bells on my home system to see if I can hear any more clues.

I am strengthened by the news that I am not the first to falter along this path to enlightenment. Maybe I can continue. My struggle will mirror the great heroes of history and literature.

I've a feeling Pastie will inquire as to which specific greats you refer to ...

Huntsman wrote: I've a feeling Pastie will inquire as to which specific greats you refer to ...

He'll have to be quick, I'm going home in a minute.

Likewise, my horse is prepared.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Huntsman wrote: I've a feeling Pastie will inquire as to which specific greats you refer to ...

He'll have to be quick, I'm going home in a minute.

I'm sure that Big is referring to epic heroes such as Odysseus, Leopold Bloom, etc.

Unless he can make that assumption official P, you may just have to resign yourself to an uneasy night tonight.

Huntsman wrote: Unless he can make that assumption official P, you may just have to resign yourself to an uneasy night tonight.

Night is a long way off for me, H, but I'm confident mine will not be uneasy.

Yes sir - with a bounce and a spring the world is a calm place.

Ta ta for now my old bean.

Carry on.

Or as BSP might say, carrion.

Patrick wrote: My main interest is not in precisely how the sound was produced but rather whether it was intended to sound like a bell.

For me, the result sounds like a guitar with overdrive, but without the usually associated noise.

Nico wrote:

Patrick wrote: My main interest is not in precisely how the sound was produced but rather whether it was intended to sound like a bell.

For me, the result sounds like a guitar with overdrive, but without the usually associated noise.

In other words, not a bell-like sound?

I will refrain from asking whether you're a VU fan.

Where's One Brain?

I prescribe bedrest and a week's course of Brian Eno's Bell Studies for the Clock of the Long Now on repeat.

You want bells? Eno's got yer friggin' bells! You can't handle the bells!

The attack seems to come from a string instrument, much rather than from a percussion. Maybe a virtual synth with a guitar-like sound. Of course, this is nothing but my opinion, I don't have the best ears in the world ;)

Soory, I don't understand a word of your last sentence (a VU fan )

Nico wrote: The attack seems to come from a string instrument, much rather than from a percussion. Maybe a virtual synth with a guitar-like sound. Of course, this is nothing but my opinion, I don't have the best ears in the world ;)

Soory, I don't understand a word of your last sentence (a VU fan )

VU=Velvet Underground, an American band from the late 60's and early 70's. One of their albums featured a singer named Nico.:)

Just a preliminary update to Big and H and anyone else who's interested. In Books 13 and 14, Odysseus is disguised as a beggar.

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Huntsman wrote: I've a feeling Pastie will inquire as to which specific greats you refer to ...

He'll have to be quick, I'm going home in a minute.

I'm sure that Big is referring to epic heroes such as Odysseus, Leopold Bloom, etc.

I can confirm that them two heroes were top of my list.

Others I had in mind were:

Hercules The Heroes from the eponymous Bowie song Noddy

Got a long night of reading ahead of us!

Yes, indeedy, Big. I'm glad to know my instinct about your meaning was correct.

From bells to heroes and I'd like to mention Hannibal Lecter, never seen someone so intelligent before. Pardon me for being totally off topic in here.

NObabe wrote: From bells to heroes and I'd like to mention Hannibal Lecter, never seen someone so intelligent before. Pardon me for being totally off topic in here.

Minor transgressions from the defined subject matter are, I believe, permitted in here Babe.

NObabe wrote: From bells to heroes and I'd like to mention Hannibal Lecter, never seen someone so intelligent before. Pardon me for being totally off topic in here.

So far I haven't detected clear references to cannibalism on WFTSC, M, but who knows, anything is possible.:)

I'll prove you wrong just give me a couple of hours. ;)

Patrick wrote:

NObabe wrote: From bells to heroes and I'd like to mention Hannibal Lecter, never seen someone so intelligent before. Pardon me for being totally off topic in here.

So far I haven't detected clear references to cannibalism on WFTSC, M, but who knows, anything is possible.:)

There's a monster at the end of the first track. Could he be a flesh-eater?

NObabe wrote: I'll prove you wrong just give me a couple of hours. ;)

I'll give you one, Babe.

Yes, what's that terrible sound at the end of Joe? Actually I was thinking more like finding the hidden meaning of the lyrics.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

NObabe wrote: From bells to heroes and I'd like to mention Hannibal Lecter, never seen someone so intelligent before. Pardon me for being totally off topic in here.

So far I haven't detected clear references to cannibalism on WFTSC, M, but who knows, anything is possible.:)

There's a monster at the end of the first track. Could he be a flesh-eater?

I would certainly hope so, Big. But that wouldn't be cannibalism, would it?

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

NObabe wrote: From bells to heroes and I'd like to mention Hannibal Lecter, never seen someone so intelligent before. Pardon me for being totally off topic in here.

So far I haven't detected clear references to cannibalism on WFTSC, M, but who knows, anything is possible.:)

There's a monster at the end of the first track. Could he be a flesh-eater?

I would certainly hope so, Big. But that wouldn't be cannibalism, would it?

I realised that as I posted it, but I thought a certain artistic license would be permitted in order that my post would scan a little better.

I realise that I was in error, and will endeavour to ensure that accuracy prevails in future posts.

Patrick wrote:

NObabe wrote: From bells to heroes and I'd like to mention Hannibal Lecter, never seen someone so intelligent before. Pardon me for being totally off topic in here.

So far I haven't detected clear references to cannibalism on WFTSC, M, but who knows, anything is possible.:)

There's a monster sound at the end of track two - perhaps that is intended to depict a predatorial human, intent on eating the flesh of an unwilling (human) victim. I wonder if they used a real predatorial human, intent on eating the flesh of an unwilling (human) victim, or synthesised one on a Moog?

I hope you don't think I was being overly nitpicky, Big. I wouldn't want you to rethink your participation in this little project. I have the sense that you and I are the only ones who are taking this with the seriousness it deserves.

Patrick wrote: I hope you don't think I was being overly nitpicky, Big. I wouldn't want you to rethink your participation in this little project. I have the sense that you and I are the only ones who are taking this with the seriousness it deserves.

I am grateful for the reminder. Thank you sir.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

NObabe wrote: From bells to heroes and I'd like to mention Hannibal Lecter, never seen someone so intelligent before. Pardon me for being totally off topic in here.

So far I haven't detected clear references to cannibalism on WFTSC, M, but who knows, anything is possible.:)

There's a monster sound at the end of track two - perhaps that is intended to depict a predatorial human, intent on eating the flesh of an unwilling (human) victim. I wonder if they used a real predatorial human, intent on eating the flesh of an unwilling (human) victim, or synthesised one on a Moog?

I don't recall having focused on a monster on track 2; but the more monsters the better, certainly. I think it's probably more of an aesthetic achievement if they faked it.

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

NObabe wrote: From bells to heroes and I'd like to mention Hannibal Lecter, never seen someone so intelligent before. Pardon me for being totally off topic in here.

So far I haven't detected clear references to cannibalism on WFTSC, M, but who knows, anything is possible.:)

There's a monster sound at the end of track two - perhaps that is intended to depict a predatorial human, intent on eating the flesh of an unwilling (human) victim. I wonder if they used a real predatorial human, intent on eating the flesh of an unwilling (human) victim, or synthesised one on a Moog?

I don't recall having focused on a monster on track 2; but the more monsters the better, certainly. I think it's probably more of an aesthetic achievement if they faked it.

Bugger! Another silly posting error!

First track, I meant to say.

Concentrate man - this is important, dammit!

Certainly there are no monsters on track 2.

I am definitely looking forward to reading that synopsis of The Odyssey that you found, Big.

BIGINOIL wrote: There's a monster sound at the end of track two - perhaps that is intended to depict a predatorial human, intent on eating the flesh of an unwilling (human) victim. I wonder if they used a real predatorial human, intent on eating the flesh of an unwilling (human) victim, or synthesised one on a Moog?

That's actually just the sound of Bernard and Hooky devouring a roasted pig.

Have you seen their latest promo shots? Damn!

charles wrote: I tried to imitate the "Who's Joe?" intro melody with my synthesizer. http://www.onetransmission.com/mp3/who's%20joe%20intro.mp3

*Great job, Charles. But I don't think this is the sound Patrick is describing as "funeral bells"... is it, Patrick?! It can't be... I don't know, funeral bells in Italy are VERY different. If this is funeral bells, then you can hear them in Krafty and World In Motion as well... ;)

Mick Aneworderfan wrote:

charles wrote: I tried to imitate the "Who's Joe?" intro melody with my synthesizer. http://www.onetransmission.com/mp3/who's%20joe%20intro.mp3

*Great job, Charles. But I don't think this is the sound Patrick is describing as "funeral bells"... is it, Patrick?! It can't be... I don't know, funeral bells in Italy are VERY different. If this is funeral bells, then you can hear them in Krafty and World In Motion as well... ;)

An amazing development!

Gnu Odor wrote: Bell-like sound, yes, but what I think you're hearing is... artificial harmonics.

*I totally agree. I really thought the supporters of the funeral bells theory reffered to one of the two sounds in the background, the huge metal sound and the remixed Japanese bells, but not these harmonics... I mean, do the funeral bells sound like harmonics in England, so thin and fast? Anyway I think if New Order read this thread, they'd piss themselves laughing at us... ;)

I think I'd rather go with that sheep bells theory.

I was unsuccessful in attempting to listen to this, unfortunately.

Mick Aneworderfan wrote:

Gnu Odor wrote: Bell-like sound, yes, but what I think you're hearing is... artificial harmonics.

*I totally agree. I really thought the supporters of the funeral bells theory reffered to one of the two sounds in the background, the huge metal sound and the remixed Japanese bells, but not these harmonics... I mean, do the funeral bells sound like harmonics in England, so thin and fast? Anyway I think if New Order read this thread, they'd piss themselves laughing at us... ;)

It's not any background sound, it's the sound of the main melody in that time period.

Supposing you're from the States, P, when do you sleep?

NObabe wrote: Supposing you're from the States, P, when do you sleep?

There are at least six of them, I think.

NObabe wrote: Supposing you're from the States, P, when do you sleep?

I'm hoping to go to bed in a couple hours, M, after I read the Odyssey synopsis while listening to WFTSC.

BIGINOIL wrote:

NObabe wrote: Supposing you're from the States, P, when do you sleep?

There are at least six of them, I think.

Recall that the view has been expressed that H, DC, and I are really all the same person.

Patrick wrote:

NObabe wrote: Supposing you're from the States, P, when do you sleep?

I'm hoping to go to bed in a couple hours, M, after I read the Odyssey synopsis while listening to WFTSC.

You'll be the class swot tomorrow. I've had real people in the house tonight and I have not done any revision at all.

I'll take the cd to work tomorrow, and do some serious cramming tomorrow, when I am on my own.

Are you an American gentleman, Patrick?

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

NObabe wrote: Supposing you're from the States, P, when do you sleep?

I'm hoping to go to bed in a couple hours, M, after I read the Odyssey synopsis while listening to WFTSC.

You'll be the class swot tomorrow. I've had real people in the house tonight and I have not done any revision at all.

I'll take the cd to work tomorrow, and do some serious cramming tomorrow, when I am on my own.

Are you an American gentleman, Patrick?

I'm an American something, Big, I'm not quite sure what.

Well then if I fall asleep while reading the synopsis I won't feel so guilty.

Patrick wrote:

I'm an American something, Big, I'm not quite sure what.

Well I am surprised. I would never have guessed. Well done, sir!

Got the official release with me today. Still listening on crappy headphones, but I can make out far more detail.

From the top

No Click Some violins Bassy, rolling drums (surely representing thunder) The bells

There's a strange sound underneath the bells - it sounds like an electronic birdsong. It could just be these headphones failing to cope with the bass in the drum, but could also be electronically replicated birdsong.

In keeping with the nautical theme of the album, I am drawn to theorise that this is symbolic of the call of the albatross.

Let's be careful with this. We don't want Coleridge to muscle in on all the good work that has been done with the Greeks. It's a beautiful piece though, a quick read wouldn't do any of us any harm.

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner

Interesting find, Biggy. It will take me half an hour to read it.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

I'm an American something, Big, I'm not quite sure what.

Well I am surprised. I would never have guessed. Well done, sir!

Good morning, Big! And everyone else as well, of course.

If your comment suggests that I might perhaps have done some tiny something to repair my country's damaged international reputation, that would be a good thing.

I did in fact read the synopsis last night, and I have some thoughts to share. It will take a little time to put them in words, so bear with me.

Slept in have we Pastie? ... you've missed a minor conflab on mermaids.

Come on, dive in.

Patrick wrote:

If your comment suggests that I might perhaps have done some tiny something to repair my country's damaged international reputation, that would be a good thing.

I did in fact read the synopsis last night, and I have some thoughts to share. It will take a little time to put them in words, so bear with me.

Good morning, Sir.

I'm so pleased that you received my comments in the spirit they were intended, ie as a complement to your good self rather than a slur on your countrymen.

As you know, I did not do any homework last night as I had humans in the house. They will not be there tonight, so I will devote myself to this important work.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

If your comment suggests that I might perhaps have done some tiny something to repair my country's damaged international reputation, that would be a good thing.

I did in fact read the synopsis last night, and I have some thoughts to share. It will take a little time to put them in words, so bear with me.

Good morning, Sir.

I'm so pleased that you received my comments in the spirit they were intended, ie as a complement to your good self rather than a slur on your countrymen.

As you know, I did not do any homework last night as I had humans in the house. They will not be there tonight, so I will devote myself to this important work.

I hope you won't be offended, Big, if I say that I feel I know you well enough, even after this short acquaintance, to have been able to understand how your comment was meant.

I was thinking, assuming I can put my thoughts in order, that I might do it on another thread, a new one. Do you think that would be appropriate?

As I've said before, I'm very much looking forward to a productive collaboration on these efforts.

Huntsman wrote: Slept in have we Pastie? ... you've missed a minor conflab on mermaids.

Come on, dive in.

Good morning, H. I saw it. Yes, I overslept. Sorry. How's the water?

Patrick wrote:

Huntsman wrote: Slept in have we Pastie? ... you've missed a minor conflab on mermaids.

Come on, dive in.

Good morning, H. I saw it. Yes, I overslept. Sorry. How's the water?

Tepid.

Outlook fair to middling.

Here's the intro:

The title of the album Waiting for the Sirens’ Call contains an unmistakable allusion to the best-known incident in The Odyssey, when Odysseus (“O” from now on) has himself bound to his ship’s mast and puts wax in the ears of his men so that he can safely hear the song of the sirens, which, without these precautions, would have meant certain death for all.

More generally, WFTSC and The Odyssey are both filled with numerous wondrous journeys to exotic lands.

As has been discussed before, the parallels between WFTSC and The Odyssey do not stop there.

Patrick wrote:

I was thinking, assuming I can put my thoughts in order, that I might do it on another thread, a new one. Do you think that would be appropriate?

A capital idea, Sir. I had been thinking the same thing. As each new branch of research develops, we have been losing site of the previous wisdom completely. Thus the funeral bell theory has not been discussed since the arrival of the ship's bell, despite their being plenty of scope for further discussion.

I am sure there would be no objection at all from the moderators if we were to maintaining more than one thread discussing the opening seconds of this album.

I may start an Ancient Mariner thread, as I am excited by this potential link. I have NOBabe on board (NOPun intended!), she's reading the poem as we speak.

This is going to take a lot longer than I anticipated, just writing up my notes. So, in the meantime, here's a somewhat expanded version (there's much more to come just on track 1, I'm afraid):

Waiting for the Sirens' Call and The Odyssey

The title of the album Waiting for the Sirens’ Call contains an unmistakable allusion to the best-known incident in The Odyssey, when Odysseus (“O” from now on) has himself bound to his ship’s mast and puts wax in the ears of his men so that he can safely hear the song of the sirens, which, without these precautions, would have meant certain death for all.

More generally, WFTSC and The Odyssey are both filled with numerous wondrous journeys to exotic lands.

As has been discussed before, the parallels between WFTSC and The Odyssey do not stop there.

The following is an attempt to identify some of the additional parallels between these two illustrious works of world literature.

Track 1 (Who’s Joe):

This track begins (0:15 to 0:45) with the sound of a bell. An initial possible interpretation was that this was a funeral bell, announcing the funeral of the hero, and I continue to believe this aspect is one element of the bell. However, it was at this point that Sir Big stepped in and made the invaluable contribution of suggesting that this bell was in fact a ship’s bell. This was obviously an earthshaking insight and revelation on the part of Sir Big, for which he is deserving of the warmest thanks and gratitude from us all. How could one dispute the proposition that a poem about voyaging would begin with a ship’s bell? Then Sir H stepped in and suggested that the ship’s bell was summoning O and his men from on-shore carousing to the start of their long journeying. Likely correct, I’d say. In addition, of course, this bell summons all of the rest of us to the start of the journey all of us enjoy in listening to WFTSC.

'Hey Joe, what you doing, seems like its all going wrong'

Would add fuel to the impending doom? The ship is drawing closer to the rocks?

Before we begin icing T1's cake theory, can I please ask for the members to not forget the overall premise, which I feel could have a snowball effect if not dealt with at this early stage.

Who, precisely, is waiting for the sirens' call?

The drifting vessel?, a person (the hero)?, a gamut of non-related chicken farmers?

The very essence of the concept could lie in whether something is waiting, or that someone is resigned to undertake the moments incapable of preventing the wait.

I hope that hasn't muddied the waters.

Sterling work P.

Thanks for the appreciation, H.

A couple of thoughts.

You have provided confirmation, H, that this will be a mighty labor, not a little thing to be whipped up in a few minutes' time.

And I don't think anyone believes, H, that it will be possible, or even desirable, to give an Odyssey-flavored reading to every syllable or every note on WFTSC.

Any disagreements on either of these points from anyone who might be interested?

Well P, I think your last post has poised such a ponderous pontification that you may have unintentionally separated the men from the mermaids.

You may need to be a hero in order to even tackle a response.

Who dare go into the cave of theories, torch low?

Huntsman wrote: Well P, I think your last post has poised such a ponderous pontification that you may have unintentionally separated the men from the mermaids.

You may need to be a hero in order to even tackle a response.

Who dare go into the cave of theories, torch low?

Which part of my post, exactly, were you referring to, H?

And I wonder where DC has disappeared to. Perhaps it's simply that all of this doesn't interest him.

He may be enjoying one of his art house movies P.

I was intimating that the overwhelming nature of the theory may be the cause of the current calm.

I did suggest that the waters were 'tepid'.

Well, since it is clear that I don't have time this morning to complete my full-blown write-up, a couple of tid-bits:

Krafty: "Looking at the stars from underneath a tree." In the Nausicaa episode, O spends a night sleeping in a tree. Moreover, O is commonly referred to as "wily," in other words "crafty" or "krafty." The Trojan horse was his idea, for example.

Dracula's Castle: Cyclops is in fact a man-eater. He devours several of O's comrades.

BS's statement that Who's Joe is about a tramp. O in fact repeatedly disguises himself as an aged beggar.

Ship bells or sheep bells? It sounds like SHEEP bells to me. Still you keep mentioning the SHIP ones. That confuses me.

I'm not sure there are too many sheep wandering around Washington DC NO Bird. Which is perhaps why the Pastry maker has not commented.

NObabe wrote: Ship bells or sheep bells? It sounds like SHEEP bells to me. Still you keep mentioning the SHIP ones. That confuses me.

Yes, Big suggested a ship's bell, and I enthusiastically embraced his suggestion. A ship's bell seems very appropriate in view of the voyaging motif. It sounds far too sonorous to be a sheep bell. However, there are goats in the Cyclops episode, and goats are somewhat associated with sheep. O uses goats to escape from Cyclops' cave.

By the way, if you count Cyclops as human, there is in fact cannibalism in The Odyssey, and under my theory Dracula's Castle=Cyclops' cave.

But wouldn't the bell be more applicable to a goat? - I'm not sure how many sheep have such things?

Edit - see above.

Sirens are all about the traveling so the SHIP bells surely make more sense but I like the idea of the SHEEP ones as well.

a line "but you came in the night and took my heart to Cyclops' cave" could be a small sign of cannibalism indeed

I can't seem to locate the Turn thread - could anybody confirm the 'leaves' lyric please.

Do you mean "the walls are tumbling down, they're falling like the leaves"?

The walls are tumbling down They're falling like the leaves

3 seconds late ;)

NObabe wrote: 3 seconds late ;)

Believe me, M, I'm painfully aware of that.

GOAL!!!!!!!!

Well played Hanksford.

It seems that Liverpuddle is finally back to strength! - probably by the manager's ability to mimic a lightening saber. Why does Stevey Jedi always look downbeat? - he's got a decent set of pins on him (although his hair style is a teensy bit pedestrian).

I hope you took note of the mighty M'bro in Europe. Next year, we fully intend to win the Champions League (of eating parmo's).

Patrick wrote: The walls are tumbling down They're falling like the leaves

I thought so.

But having listened intently I believe the line to be:

'The walls are tumbling down, they're falling by, the leaves'

In fact, I'm fairly certain.

Falling by, the leaves? What is that supposed to mean? What are the leaves doing at the end of that sentence?

Huntsman wrote:

Patrick wrote: The walls are tumbling down They're falling like the leaves

I thought so.

But having listened intently I believe the line to be:

'The walls are tumbling down, they're falling by, the leaves'

In fact, I'm fairly certain.

I don't think so, H. But if you were correct, what would that mean?

Slight update. Still much to be done.

Waiting for the Sirens’ Call and The Odyssey

The title of the album Waiting for the Sirens’ Call contains an unmistakable allusion to the best-known incident in The Odyssey, when Odysseus (“O” from now on) has himself bound to his ship’s mast and puts wax in the ears of his men so that he can safely hear the song of the sirens, which, without these precautions, would have meant certain death for all.

More generally, WFTSC and The Odyssey are both filled with numerous wondrous journeys to exotic lands.

As has been discussed before, the parallels between WFTSC and The Odyssey do not stop there.

The following is an attempt to identify some of the additional parallels between these two illustrious works of world literature.

Track 1 (Who’s Joe):

This track begins (0:15 to 0:45) with the sound of a bell. An initial possible interpretation was that this was a funeral bell, announcing the funeral of the hero, and I continue to believe this aspect is one element of the bell. However, it was at this point that Sir Big stepped in and made the invaluable contribution of suggesting that this bell was in fact a ship’s bell. This was obviously an earthshaking insight and revelation on the part of Sir Big, for which he is deserving of the warmest thanks and gratitude from us all. How could one dispute the proposition that a poem about voyaging would begin with a ship’s bell? Then Sir H stepped in and suggested that the ship’s bell was summoning O and his men from on-shore carousing to the start of their long journeying. Likely correct, I’d say. In addition, of course, this bell summons all of the rest of us to the start of the journey all of us enjoy in listening to WFTSC.

BS has made the statement that Who’s Joe is about a tramp. O in fact repeatedly disguises himself as an aged beggar.

At the start of The Odyssey, O’s son Telemachus goes in search of his long-absent father.

[Much more to come on Who’s Joe, including the sea-monster at the end.]

Track 2: [To come.]

Track 3: [To come.]

Track 4 (Krafty):

“Looking at the stars from underneath a tree.” In the Nausicaa episode, O spends a night sleeping in a tree. Moreover, O is commonly referred to as “wily,” in other words “crafty” or “krafty.” The Trojan horse was his idea, for example.

Track 5 (I Told You So): [To come.]

Track 6 (Morning Night and Day): [To come.]

Track 7 (Dracula's Castle):

Cyclops is in fact a man-eater. He devours several of O’s comrades.

It makes perfect sense.

Imagine that the wall is surrounded by trees, or is in someway pitched in some kind of elaborate garden or area containing foliage. Then the wall crashes down besides the fallen leaves; both tumbled.

I think it makes a more evocative scene, deeper and richer in imagery.

The walls are eroding away, They're falling besides the leaves, decaying on the floor.

Huntsman wrote: Well played Hanksford.

It seems that Liverpuddle is finally back to strength! - probably by the manager's ability to mimic a lightening saber. Why does Stevey Jedi always look downbeat? - he's got a decent set of pins on him (although his hair style is a teensy bit pedestrian).

I hope you took note of the mighty M'bro in Europe. Next year, we fully intend to win the Champions League (of eating parmo's).

Gerrard's misery could be linked to his perpetual bad hair day.

Haven't seen much UEFA cup togger, Are you still in it? I know Newcastle are.

Let me think about it, H.

They're falling by. The leaves.

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Huntsman wrote: Well played Hanksford.

I hope you took note of the mighty M'bro in Europe. Next year, we fully intend to win the Champions League (of eating parmo's).

Haven't seen much UEFA cup togger, Are you still in it? I know Newcastle are.

Higgledy Hibbsy happened by not so long ago as Boro were riding high in the UEFA mad house and pretty much jinxed us by declaring that its fun to watch but Boro will never win.

He was right, in part, it wasn't very funny watching us bow out like some pathetic collection of clowns' shoes.

The only way we'll win anything other than the Chip Sandwich Cup is if Godzilla was in goal, and he's already playing for Man. City.

NObabe wrote: They're falling by. The leaves.

If you listen to the song with the 'falling by' suggestion, you may see where I'm coming from.

I wouldn't have mentioned it if I didn't genuinely believe that the suggested new line wasn't correct.

Here where I come from we believe it's "falling like the leaves". I mean, do you have autumn out there? ;)

Somebody propositioned 'falling back, the leaves' didn't they?

'Back' is very similar to 'by' except 'by' does make some better sense.

NObabe wrote: Here where I come from we believe it's "falling like the leaves". I mean, do you have autumn out there? ;)

Not really, we usually enjoy winter all year.

If we embrace your concept NOBird, then could you quote me which wall falls like a leaf? - one made of soft foam?

Somebody was wrong, obviously.

NObabe wrote: Somebody was wrong, obviously.

I knew you'd see sense. ;)

Which wall? The point is that the wall falls down just as quickly/fast as the leaf.

NObabe wrote: Which wall? The point is that the wall falls down just as quickly/fast as the leaf.

But leaves 'float' in a gentle whisper, whereas a good strong wall would collapse immediately in a heap.

Admittedly, walls fall as everything that falls does, i.e. down. In that respect then the parallel can be drawn.

Perhaps he should have sang: 'The walls are tumbling down, they're falling faster than the leaves are'

What does this have to do with The Odyssey, H?

Everything P.

The walls are integral, and perhaps the pivotal moment of the entire album in relation to The Odyssey. How they fall, and where is surely paramount?

If they fall 'like' leaves, then the leaves are utilised metaphorically, if instead the walls tumble besides or into the leaves, then surely that provokes an entire setting?

Just trying to do my bit P.

I think he just used that phrase as a comparation. I mean, the leaves surely fall down. Once they are down, it remains that way. In other words when Barney's walls fall down, there's nothing in the world that can build another ones. Sorry if you don't like my theory but that's the way I get it.

I can fully accept your theory NOBird, it sounds complete and entirely accurate.

It all rides on whether Bernard sings 'by' or 'as'.

I may be in the minority in my view. But that wouldn't be too surprising.

And if you pay attention to the "You've got me on my knees" line, you'll see what I mean. The walls fell down and Barney is completely "naked" so to speak, just like the tree when the leaves fall down.

NObabe wrote: I think he just used that phrase as a comparation. I mean, the leaves surely fall down. Once they are down, it remains that way. In other words when Barney's walls fall down, there's nothing in the world that can build another ones. Sorry if you don't like my theory but that's the way I get it.

I too agree with these sentiments.

In addition, to say that the walls are tumbling down in the same way that leaves fall evokes a very end-of-the-world feel: the walls have no more inherent substance than the leaves, and they fall just as easily as leaves do.

Patrick wrote:

And I don't think anyone believes, H, that it will be possible, or even desirable, to give an Odyssey-flavored reading to every syllable or every note on WFTSC.

Lightweight!

Patrick wrote: Waiting for the Sirens' Call and The Odyssey

*I can't believe you're really doing this! Well, I'd have never guessed you're American too, your sense of humour seems so British... See people, not all the Americans are stupid... I hope no one has taken too seriously the other topic (after all any New Order fan is intelligent, whatever their country is). I mean, the Pixies are American and Margaret Thatcher is English. I am Italian but unfortunately Berlusconi is our prime minister (though he losts all the regions but two at the recent regional elections ). So stupids are really everywhere, it's just that in America they usually speak louder than the many intelligent people who are still there... BTW if you really mean the main melody of the beginning played either by guitar harmonics or by a keyboard trying to imitate them, I'm starting to suspect you've been taking the piss suggesting they're funeral bells :p Was it an experiment in social study like "How to start a 10 page thread based on an assumption thrown in without any credibility but masked with a misunderstanding"?

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

And I don't think anyone believes, H, that it will be possible, or even desirable, to give an Odyssey-flavored reading to every syllable or every note on WFTSC.

Lightweight!

The sky is high, the road is long...

Mick Aneworderfan wrote:

Patrick wrote: Waiting for the Sirens' Call and The Odyssey

*I can't believe you're really doing this! Well, I'd have never guessed you're American too, your sense of humour seems so British... See people, not all the Americans are stupid... I hope no one has taken too seriously the other topic. I mean, the Pixies are American and Margaret Thatcher is English. I am Italian but unfortunately Berlusconi is our prime minister (though he losts all the regions but two at the recent regional elections ). So stupids are really everywhere, it's just that in America they usually speak louder than the many intelligent people who are still there...

Well, Parma Mick, I just hope we are able to do a decent job on this little project.

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

And I don't think anyone believes, H, that it will be possible, or even desirable, to give an Odyssey-flavored reading to every syllable or every note on WFTSC.

Lightweight!

The sky is high, the road is long...

That's the spirit!

They're working me really hard today - I will join in properly later on.

Really like the work in progress.

Big Neville, when you manage to complete your chores and turn your attention back to the concept, you can read how we've steamed rolled forward in your absence by pontificating one word over a 5 hour period.

We're practically smoking.

Huntsman wrote: Big Neville, when you manage to complete your chores and turn your attention back to the concept, you can read how we've steamed rolled forward in your absence by pontificating one word over a 5 hour period.

We're practically smoking.

If you're the sort of person that gleans pleasure from knowing that you have made people laugh out loud at their desks, attracting embarrasing stares from their colleagues, you should nod smugly to yourself and, if in company, project a self-satisfied gurn to those around you.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

And I don't think anyone believes, H, that it will be possible, or even desirable, to give an Odyssey-flavored reading to every syllable or every note on WFTSC.

Lightweight!

The sky is high, the road is long...

That's the spirit!

They're working me really hard today - I will join in properly later on.

Really like the work in progress.

Thanks, Big, I hope to be able to do a bit more later today.

NObabe wrote: Barney is completely "naked"

Why is the singer pleading with us to "turn your eyes from me"?

Because Medussa is singing!

If we don't turn our eyes from her, we all go mad!

BIGINOIL wrote: Why is the singer pleading with us to "turn your eyes from me"?

Because Medussa is singing!

If we don't turn our eyes from her, we all go mad!

Is Medusa in the Odyssey?

Wasn't it Perseus with Medusa?

Cellini's statue?

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote: Why is the singer pleading with us to "turn your eyes from me"?

Because Medussa is singing!

If we don't turn our eyes from her, we all go mad!

Is Medusa in the Odyssey?

Wasn't it Perseus with Medusa?

Cellini's statue?

It was indeed Perseus. But the tone of the whole piece suggests that the singer is pleading with the listener not to look at them, with the implication that it is the only way that they will escape terrible harm. With the possible exception of Gail Tilsley, there's only Medusa that can inflict harm just by invoking a man's gaze...

Barney must have had a bit too much Pernod and got his myths in a muddle.

Maybe this song was actually intended for the NEXT album "Waiting for Medusa's Hair", but the record company insisted it went on this one.

I bet they said "ah, just put it on the Odyssey one – the fans won’t work it out anyway".

Aha, Mr Warner! You underestimated us, didn't you!

Wasn't there also something in the Bible about fatal looking?

Or that dreadful movie H likes so much?

Patrick wrote: Or that dreadful movie H likes so much?

Fatal Attraction? Please don't say the albums about that. I hate that gerbil-faced twat. Couldn't act his way out of a Bond Movie.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote: Or that dreadful movie H likes so much?

Fatal Attraction? Please don't say the albums about that. I hate that gerbil-faced twat. Couldn't act his way out of a Bond Movie.

Actually I was thinking of The Ring.

If you are saying nasty things about Michael Douglas, I will be very happy to sign that petition.

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote: Or that dreadful movie H likes so much?

Fatal Attraction? Please don't say the albums about that. I hate that gerbil-faced twat. Couldn't act his way out of a Bond Movie.

Actually I was thinking of The Ring.

If you are saying nasty things about Michael Douglas, I will be very happy to sign that petition.

Not seen it. Are we going to start a petition against Michael Douglas?

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote: Or that dreadful movie H likes so much?

Fatal Attraction? Please don't say the albums about that. I hate that gerbil-faced twat. Couldn't act his way out of a Bond Movie.

Actually I was thinking of The Ring.

If you are saying nasty things about Michael Douglas, I will be very happy to sign that petition.

Not seen it. Are we going to start a petition against Michael Douglas?

Don't bother seeing it. I thought you were passing one around to sign, Big.

Mick Aneworderfan wrote: See people, not all the Americans are stupid... I hope no one has taken too seriously the other topic (after all any New Order fan is intelligent, whatever their country is).

Thanks, man!

That's the attitude I'm looking for here at NOOL.

One nation, united, under Barney's giant man-boobs.

P.S.

It's obvious to me that the twin techno-thumpers "Jetstream" and "GIAUE" are meant to represent the twin dangers of Charybdis (the giant whirlpool) and Scylla (the six-headed she-monster) between which Odysseus must navigate. Track 3 lures the listener into the water, and only careful use of the Skip button and application of earwax can transport him or her safely to the calm respite of "Turn."

Gnu Odor wrote: P.S.

It's obvious to me that the twin techno-thumpers "Jetstream" and "GIAUE" are meant to represent the twin dangers of Charybdis (the giant whirlpool) and Scylla (the six-headed she-monster) between which Odysseus must navigate. Track 3 lures the listener into the water, and only careful use of the Skip button and application of earwax can transport him or her safely to the calm respite of "Turn."

Thank you, sir! An outstanding contribution! I think you get today's badge!

Patrick wrote:

Gnu Odor wrote: P.S.

It's obvious to me that the twin techno-thumpers "Jetstream" and "GIAUE" are meant to represent the twin dangers of Charybdis (the giant whirlpool) and Scylla (the six-headed she-monster) between which Odysseus must navigate. Track 3 lures the listener into the water, and only careful use of the Skip button and application of earwax can transport him or her safely to the calm respite of "Turn."

Thank you, sir! An outstanding contribution! I think you get today's badge!

I'll sign THAT petition! Just the shot in the arm this thread needed.

Encore!

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote:

Gnu Odor wrote: P.S.

It's obvious to me that the twin techno-thumpers "Jetstream" and "GIAUE" are meant to represent the twin dangers of Charybdis (the giant whirlpool) and Scylla (the six-headed she-monster) between which Odysseus must navigate. Track 3 lures the listener into the water, and only careful use of the Skip button and application of earwax can transport him or her safely to the calm respite of "Turn."

Thank you, sir! An outstanding contribution! I think you get today's badge!

I'll sign THAT petition! Just the shot in the arm this thread needed.

Encore!

Inspired by that breath of fresh air, to be briefly serious, I had been meaning to note the proliferation of "paired tracks" on the album. There are at least four pairs, I think: 1&2, 3&4, 6&7, and 8&9.

Any reactions?

Spotnick wrote: Can't believe this thread is 12 pages long.

I'm putting all my trust in Bentley, if a sound engineer says it's not a bell, then it's not ;)

Actually, the longer the thread goes on, the higher the percentage of "no" votes gets.

Maybe they are just voting against the thread itself at this point.

Patrick wrote: Maybe they are just voting against the thread itself at this point.

I'm beginning to see what they mean!

Actually, I think I missed the point early on as far as the bells/no bells debate and it seems to be a discussion on themes and underlying meaning rather than just a sound source. It's definitley an entertaining, interesting, and enlightening read.

From a sound source standpoint, the formula is quite simple:

Clangy sound + Stephen Morris = Synthesizer.

I'd even suspect that you need look no further than his trusty 'ol Kurzweil k2500 to locate the sound. I recall several sounds of the same tibre coming from that synth the last time I played one.

As for symbolism... I graciously bow out of that debate and leave it to speculation, imagination, and personal impressions. I'm off to see if it syncs up to the Wizard of Oz... ;)

Bentley wrote: Actually, I think I missed the point early on as far as the bells/no bells debate and it seems to be a discussion on themes and underlying meaning rather than just a sound source. It's definitley an entertaining, interesting, and enlightening read.

From a sound source standpoint, the formula is quite simple:

Clangy sound + Stephen Morris = Synthesizer.

I'd even suspect that you need look no further than his trusty 'ol Kurzweil k2500 to locate the sound. I recall several sounds of the same tibre coming from that synth the last time I played one.

As for symbolism... I graciously bow out of that debate and leave it to speculation, imagination, and personal impressions. I'm off to see if it syncs up to the Wizard of Oz... ;)

There are moments when I think this thread might go on forever......

It's doing better than mine.

One hundred and five views and not one reply!

Patrick wrote: Inspired by that breath of fresh air, to be briefly serious, I had been meaning to note the proliferation of "paired tracks" on the album. There are at least four pairs, I think: 1&2, 3&4, 6&7, and 8&9. Any reactions?

*I don't know... 1 sounds more Get Ready, while 2 is more Smiths, but yes they could be paired with a little effort. 3 and 4: definitely yes. 5 and 6: see above. I think one of the best moments of the album is when Morning Night And Day's dark beginning follows I Told You So's dark ending... 7 should have been paired with 1 8 and 9: absolutely yes, the disco hits. 10 and 11: erm, not at all. And by the way the tracks are 11 so there can't be a perfect pairing. I think they made the right choices for those three great pairs, but made a few mistakes, Who's Joe is a filler and so is Working OT, the album should have been opened with Krafty or the title track and closed with Turn.

Patrick wrote:

Inspired by that breath of fresh air, to be briefly serious, I had been meaning to note the proliferation of "paired tracks" on the album. There are at least four pairs, I think: 1&2, 3&4, 6&7, and 8&9.

Any reactions?

What is the meaning of the pairs, oh wise one?

MONICA wrote:

Patrick wrote:

Inspired by that breath of fresh air, to be briefly serious, I had been meaning to note the proliferation of "paired tracks" on the album. There are at least four pairs, I think: 1&2, 3&4, 6&7, and 8&9.

Any reactions?

What is the meaning of the pairs, oh wise one?

I haven't figured that out yet, Monica. I would welcome any input.

Would you care to answer the obvious question?

About your name, I mean?

By the way, you might want to look at the lyrics thread. It's been very active.

Monica is probably the name of a girl in Biggy's office

Or else it's THE Monica.

Sex change, perhaps, overnight. Joe has turned into a cat, Biggy has become Monica. That's too much for me!

Patrick wrote: Or else it's THE Monica.

It's my tribute to the :topic: Moniker thread.

NObabe wrote: Monica is probably the name of a girl in Biggy's office

How can I possibly have a thing for the girl in the office? As you can see from my name, I am a lady.

Bi?

NObabe wrote: Bi?

Not in Scotland, it's illegal.

MONICA wrote:

NObabe wrote: Monica is probably the name of a girl in Biggy's office

How can I possibly have a thing for the girl in the office? As you can see from my name, I am a lady.

I understand that Lesbians have become quite the trend lately.

MONICA wrote:

Patrick wrote: Or else it's THE Monica.

It's my tribute to the :topic: Moniker thread.

That explanation would never have occurred to me.

Patrick wrote:

MONICA wrote:

Patrick wrote: Or else it's THE Monica.

It's my tribute to the :topic: Moniker thread.

That explanation would never have occurred to me.

That's because you don't think like a lady.

MONICA wrote:

Patrick wrote:

MONICA wrote:

Patrick wrote: Or else it's THE Monica.

It's my tribute to the :topic: Moniker thread.

That explanation would never have occurred to me.

That's because you don't think like a lady.

Is there any safe response?