Joy Division..Goth or not?

Simple question, really: Do JD belong to the pantheon of Goth Rock, or are there some distinct traits that seperate them from the herd? I just thought this might be a fun debate (especially for Morris Fan), so let's consider some points

1. JD weren't really into makeup, strange dress, or wierd hair (unless you count Hooky's mullet or Barney's fade, but those came later)

2. There's little or no mention (as far as I can recall) of witches, goblins, demons, babies being sacrificed, ie the usual Goth trademarks in JD's lyrics

3. While moody and dark, JD sound a lot happier compared to the Bauhaus bunch.

4. Most Goth singers talk about how depressed and suicidal they are, but Ian really WAS depressed and suicidal, while most of the Goths are poseurs

I realize I may offend the Goth contingent of the site, but I don't consider it a full day's work unless I've offended someone. Anyways, let's see where everyone stands on the question...

Fred Durst...moron or genius ???

:evil2:

Moron, absoulutely :headoff:

:evil2:

...back to your topic...i don't like tags like "goth", "punk", "new wave" or whatever...to me such categorism is just the result of the inability of businessmen to sell music...

cheers.

Oh..... Goth Off will yer?!! :finger: :evil:

Load of arse. Or, more correctly, Joy Division were GOTHIC in many respects (spiky, rather grandiose) rather than "Goth", which is a fairly sad "movement" consisting of the Blisters of Percy and one or two copycats......

well goths certainly seem to consider JD as one of their own, and not just that but count them among the forerunners/originators of goth (ive come across quite a few web sites which seem to back this up).and i remember the first time i listened to jd i thought "how fucking goth is that?"; it seems a lot of the elements associated with goth are present in jds music(particularly the production and the baritone vocals). but i still think they were an external influence on the goth thing rather than any real part of the scene. and critically speaking they seem to have transcended the derison and unfashionability of goth. i dont know much about goth really, it seems like a bit of a silly genre, but maybe thats cos its been tarnished by the cartoonish exaggeration of the likes of sisters of mercy.

Originally posted by velocity girl well goths certainly seem to consider JD as one of their own, and not just that but count them among the forerunners/originators of goth (ive come across quite a few web sites which seem to back this up).and i remember the first time i listened to jd i thought "how fucking goth is that?"; it seems a lot of the elements associated with goth are present in jds music(particularly the production and the baritone vocals). but i still think they were an external influence on the goth thing rather than any real part of the scene. and critically speaking they seem to have transcended the derison and unfashionability of goth.i dont know much about goth really, it seems like a bit of a silly genre, but maybe thats cos its been tarnished by the cartoonish exaggeration of the likes of sisters of mercy.

VG, VG. You've hit the nail on the head there I think. The thing with these "Goths" is that they take themselves and their beliefs very very seriously, to the extent that if you dare take the piss they are mortally (pun intended) offended ! We had one at University many moons back who seemed oblivious to the fact that everybody thought she was just about the weirdest fish in the pond, with her ridiculous white painted face at all hours of the day and night (mucho pisstako in lectures !). Going back to around 1985 and the end of the Hussey Sisters era, when they actually churned out some decent stuff before it became a sick Eldritch parody of the music business as he saw it, there were I suppose the beginnings of what mushroomed sadly into "Goth". Bloody Eldritch. Always said he'd have his revenge on the NME !!

Hmmmmm, an interesting perspective ! To be honest I've tried not to think about Goths at all. The permanent black garb is depressing, let alone the Morticia Adams impressions and sulky faces !

Well, I used to like Curve for a year or two when they were around - Toni Halliday is a bit of a foxy looking chick, regardless anyway - so does that make me a Goth then?? Answer me that !! ;)

Toni Halliday was fit though, and managed to make that miserable look appear sultry and appealing. Not many Goth females manage to perfect that look !

there in a league/class of there own...

Who are ? Curve ? I've come to the nad-shattering conclusion that Joy Division were indeed unique, taking the punk DIY spirit and combining it with different lyrical content to many of their peers. They were also bloody lucky on three counts : that they could call on the various and diverse talents of Martin Hannett, Tony Wilson and Rob Gretton. Without those three gentlemen, Warsaw would have been doomed to eternal support slots. Hang on, didn't Paul Morley say that last bit?

NOT!!! "What do you categorize as Goth??" Sisters of Mercy? Nine Inch Nails? Rema Rema? This Mortail Coil? This Mortal Coil were beautiful emotional and melancholic, as Joy Division were, but never in the fucking same division as you might define as cold, cynical Goth.

but anyway, it's only music :)

A This Mortal Coil/Rema Rema classic :) : "Fond affections never said there are only songs in songs" Goth ???

Originally posted by Frode Nordmarken A This Mortal Coil/Rema Rema classic :) : "Fond affections never said there are only songs in songs"Goth ???

W T F ?

Originally posted by velocity girl well goths certainly seem to consider JD as one of their own, and not just that but count them among the forerunners/originators of goth (ive come across quite a few web sites which seem to back this up).and i remember the first time i listened to jd i thought "how fucking goth is that?"; it seems a lot of the elements associated with goth are present in jds music(particularly the production and the baritone vocals). but i still think they were an external influence on the goth thing rather than any real part of the scene. and critically speaking they seem to have transcended the derison and unfashionability of goth.i dont know much about goth really, it seems like a bit of a silly genre, but maybe thats cos its been tarnished by the cartoonish exaggeration of the likes of sisters of mercy.

I agree completely. (So Taboo, you don't have to wade through an essay...) Along those lines, I remember someone owning an "Originators of Punk" record and there was an early song by Brian Eno - that didn't make any sense either.

What's the deal with the difference between Goth and Gothic? I never made any distinction...

I also want to say I really like the formatting on the initial post! Nice layout and attention to detail! (That's my style... ;))

being a GOTH dj myself i find a big influence on THE SCENE was by Joy Division

i never really understood what goth was or is apart from the fact the girls all look very well :)

you could continue this buy saying Bauhaus arnt GOTH there Bowie clones or Marilyn Mansons not GOTH hes just a really bad Alice Cooper clone etc etc the one thing ill never understand is Alien Sex Fiend being called Goth i always thought they were a bunch of drunk punks playing rockabilly

JOY DIVISION are not by defintion GOTH but then again who is

MICHAEL JACKSON? he had the surgurey to look that pale

He's going for Diana Ross, I think...

One of the funniest things I've ever seen on In Living Color: thye have "michael Jackson" after his final pastic surgery operation, and it's revealed to be Diana Ross (the real deal)

The Blisters of Percy were goth. So were Wayne Hussey and the Pussys (sorry, The Mission) and that whole offshoot of shoddy non-muso types who found themselves attached to the rear spokes of the bandwagon by their extended salivating tongues. Salvation being the worst example by far !!

hahahaha ill never get over Andrew and his BIG STICK and GLASSES all class you should see him now short yellow spikey hair he has gone all Bowie on us last year he pulled the Sisters out of a festival in Gemany they were headling cause the word GOTH was used in the advertising