New Order - In it for the Money?

From the days of Joy Division, there can be little doubt that Joy Division/NewOrder were an ambitious group, who wanted as many people as possible to hear their Music – and justifiably so. There are – in my opinion – few groups better at making music. Before I say what I have to say, like everyone else here, I am a huge fan of the music New Order have made over the last quarter century – and from what I gather, they seem like pretty decent people too.

In the Factory days, the band seemed to get a raw financial deal. There is little doubt that they got underpaid for their work – given its market value. The finances of Factory Records, the Hacienda Nightclub etc have been well dealt with elsewhere. From the bands point of view, this could be seen as gross miss-management or the price you pay for musical freedom from the majors, or (more likely) a bit of both.

If at this stage, the band were in it for the money (Mick Jagger style), we could assume they would have called stop! – Not knowing the ins-and-outs of the situation, Its not fair to say what the reasons were for the band to allow such a situation to develop. Fundamentally, the Factory era seems to show that they aren’t a greedy bunch – and making money wasn’t their root cause.

To get to the point – since the days of Factory, there seems to be less thought put into what NewOrder do. A certain amount of this can be attributed to the fact that the band are getting on, but in my opinion, not all of it (see other artists of their age – David Byrne and Kraftwerk – for example). We have had 4 back catalogue collections, and 3 (incl “Item”) DVDs whilst Live shows seem to consist of ramming out the hits to a very wide spectrum of fans in as large a venue as possible. On this present tour, we have seen more or less the same setlist week in week out in similar surrounds (arenas/fields).

From the bands point of view, this is the easiest way possible to bring home the biggest cheque possible. From the fans point of view, it is pretty unsatisfying. As a (relatively) new fan, I was just glad to see them – but it doesn’t detract from the fact that I think they are not giving a lot back. This tour won’t even see them play Manchester!

Not all bands of such a scale take such a route. For instance, at Christmas 2003 Blur played a “back to basics” UK and Ireland tour. I saw them twice at the Olympia in Dublin, and it was fantastic. As well as playing the hits, the band played some very old stuff, and really seemed to enjoy it. The variation in such a situation can be as much a relief for the band as the fans.

Why don’t NewOrder do a back to basics tour?

Even as a warm up for the (super-profitable) Festival Circuit in a few smaller UK venues? There would be no problem filling them, and maybe they wouldn’t have to play “Blue Fucking Monday” as Bernard says. Festivals must be very boring. All that expectation to play LWTUA*, Blue Monday*, BLT*, True faith*, etc.

I think that if they were more interested in having a good time, and exploring their past and present musical output, and showing some gratitude to those who would (and do) travel to the other side of the world to see them - they would play some smaller venues from time to time – but I don’t think that is the case.

Maybe it’s the Shit end of the Warner stick showing up. Maybe Im to young to know it was always this way. Maybe its because Rob Gretton isn’t still around. Maybe someone comes into a meeting with them and says “play these 15 festivals and make £x each” and they just don’t really think beyond that convenience. There are all sorts of legal ins and outs with playing your own gigs whilst playing festivals – for instance I very much doubt that they could play Dublin within a certain period either side of playing the Oxegen Festival – maybe it isn’t them, but their management instead?

It just seems that if you had a scale, with inventiveness, relative (and it is relative – when you consider what most groups take home) poverty on one side, :: and boring set lists with predictable albums* strangling the NewOrder “brand” for every penny on the other, - that they are a little too close to the U2 side and a little too far from the David Byrne side.

This post shouldn’t be seen as any form of attack on New Order as people, or those around them – at the end of the day we know fuck all about their personal situation (and thankfully so). These are just some opinions that I have formed over the last few months, from talking with other fans, going to 2 gigs, and listening to some of the older records. I think the root of the same setlist/uninventive albums* syndrome lies around here. These opinions aren’t set in stone, and I thought I’d post them here in order to hear what others thought.

*all of which I like, incidentally – but then again, I would.

Spotnick wrote: I don't think the band is generating money out of a tour like they just did...

Festivals must not pay too much, unless they headline like in Hyde Park.

We all know Bernard prefers his family to touring, so no, he's not in it for the money, but he knows he needs to do this in order to be able to do more music...

Well, you get the picture...

Even taking all these factors into account - which are all fair enough, It doesnt explain the total lack of exploration into the back catalogue that is apparent.

I dont think this is so true. He never really has big problems with the music, and the "autocue as comfort blanket" theory seems to hold for me - he does forget some lyrics, but typing them into an autocue and rehearsing some more songs isnt too hard. Flying from place to place playing the same 12 - 14 songs must be.

considering that they're almost 50, i'm sure their priorities have changed over the years so they're not going to do lots of shows and really 'explore' their back catalogue. just do enough to make the fans happy, make enough money to keep themselves comfortable, then concentrate on more important things in life. nothing wrong with that.

In reality, after the Factory years, they didn't have a great deal of money in the bank and probably only made money out of the sales of Republic.

I don't begrudge them cashing in a bit. I wouldn't use the U2 comparison, they do much bigger tours. Hyde Park is the biggest crowd they have pulled as a headlining act on their own. It may well have been the Wireless Festival, but everyone was there for New Order.

I really like WFTSC and GR is ok. So long as the quality remains good then I am happy.

I also meant to say that I would prefer if they rehearsed maybe 35 songs and that certain songs weren't taken as givens and there was a bit more variety in the set list.

Its because firstly they cant be arsed to rehearse the songs and secondly even if they did rehearse them they'd fook up on them.

Uncle Liam wrote: Its because firstly they cant be arsed to rehearse the songs and secondly even if they did rehearse them they'd fook up on them.

Best reply yet.

My point is : Im sure their priorities have changed, and cashing in a bit is only to be expected - but even within these confines, for their own sakes as much as the fans, you would think they may want to mix it up a little?

AgentWood wrote: considering that they're almost 50, i'm sure their priorities have changed over the years so they're not going to do lots of shows and really 'explore' their back catalogue. just do enough to make the fans happy, make enough money to keep themselves comfortable, then concentrate on more important things in life. nothing wrong with that.

I think that pretty much sums it up. In the past one of their main priorties was New Order. Now that's not the case. They're more interested in other things in life and New Order no longer comes first.

It's also a shame about the setlist. Rather tiresome but it's better than nothing. I guess it wouldn't cause much trouble if they could at least add two more old songs like Perfect Kiss or one of the other classics, but it just doesn't work like that anymore.

I like to think that I can tell when a band's only in it for the money and as far as I can see, that's not the case with NO.

well in my opinion,i don't think they're in it for the money, from a touring point of view they may be playing near enough the same set at each festival but they're playing festivals all over the world, so its not like they're playing to the same audience everynight unlike on a tour where quite a few people may go to two shows or more a tour.and when they are playing festivals in the same country they're practically the opposite end from the last venue.

with the back catalouge issue, i'm glad they haven't re-released copy after copy of each album with bonus dogshit demos etc, and one box set in 25 yrs is pretty decent not like say elvis who gets re-release after re-release of the same songs in a different running order with the odd new re-mix here and there.

i would like to see them release a album of them doing there old joy Division stuff , i like bernards voice on the JD stuff live.

if they'd got back together and recorded a couple of godawful albums I would say they were. But they haven't. Some of the recent stuff is I think some of their best stuff.

But they could chuck in a few more new songs on tour and leave out BFM etc...

They are in it for money, love,adulation,pride in themselves,making magic stuff that no one else does like only they can.They must love it.What's not to love?Getting rich is part of the deal now..They are reaping what they sowed and still creating..What other band of near 50 year olds are still writing great tunes?New Order are picking up speed and seemingly loving it on stage,Its great that they are seeing the money now...

The collapses of the early 90's lost them all their money thanks to the 'brilliance' of our Tone - they can't be blamed for cashing in - they need the retirement fund and they have kids!

But do we feel exploited? Do we fuck!

Clockwork C wrote: we know fuck all about their personal situation (and thankfully so).

Actually I know exactly how much Hooky pays in school fees every year. Strange coincidence that 38 years after we went to school together our sons now go to the same school as each other (albeit a different one to the one we went to!)

Let's just that they are in it for the money. So what's wrong with that??? Ok, they obviously like writing new songs and performing live for their fans, so why not make some (or a lot of) money out of it? Ok, they are not playing a lot of new songs or great old songs, but if they are not bored of "Blue fucking Monday", why should I complain? I actually enjoy the fact that are not perfoming the whole WFTSC and nothing more, just because it's new and they want to promote it. There are no surprises when you go to a NO gig, I suppose, but that's not always bad. Sometimes surprises turn out to be total failures

Besides the money, I'm sure they do it at least in part for the rush of adrenaline (the only rush for a sober NO these days) they get from being a bunch of awkward 50-year-olds who still know how to rock the fooking house and get a swell of applause, even if it's for fucking up a greatest hit they've played a million times.

Besides the money, I'm sure they do it at least in part for the rush of adrenaline (the only rush for a sober NO these days) they get from being a bunch of awkward 50-year-olds who still know how to rock the fooking house and get a swell of applause, even if it's for fucking up a greatest hit they've played a million times.

right hang on lads let me get my soapbox out. i was thinking of doing a post along these lines ie how new order have evolved in attitude as well as music over the past 25 yrs or so. but clock seems to have summed it up so ill go along with it.

in the early days jd/no didnt have a fucking clue what they was doing financialy,they was nearly declared bankrupt on several ocassions after run ins with the tax ans customs and exise. this i put down to the total ineptitude of GRETTON and WILSON as managers or svengalis whatever. sure they could spot a good band ect but as for managment they where woefull at the very best

here is my point "are new order in it for the money" YES they was from the very start,and why wouldnt they be? they was nearly out on their ears twice at an early stage,so not wishing to go back their would have been an insentive. but the likes of gretton and wilson held them back and its a fact. we all know that new order should have been massive stateside and indeed globally but due to rob n tonys insecent bumbling they was once again denied. as for the hacienda (what a place) it truly was a magnificent club,but at what price. sure you cant make an ommlette without breaking a few eggs but tell that to the people picking up the tab,aka new order. once again on the brink of financial ruin,when wilson held a directors meeting to discuss the hacs finances which involved barney going mental about the cost of it all,wilson said "cmon bernard,if you could push a button and the hacienda had never existed,what would you do". to which barney replied "show me the fucking button".

all to no avail of course as mr wilson then decides to plow money into property development ect,all without any knowledge or skill of the field they are going into,only someone elses money,i wonder who that could be eh??

in hindsight the members of the band should have fucked em both of long ago but they was too drunk,too drugged to care until the bailiffs came a knocking once again and factory sank.

as for the gigs ect today "good on em" its about time they got sorted out even though its in the twighlight years? has anyone noticed that total product output has increased since they signed to london/warner ect,sponsorship too?? these are the things they should have had in their prime years,not being used as a vibrator to fuck someone elses dreams.

as for making money i hope they make tons of it,after all the pleasure they have broght to millions and they greif they have been through to do it they fucking well deserve every penny. you can put my soapbox away for now lads.

I honestly can't imagine them needing the money. Also, I can't personally see them having done anything to warrant suggestions that they are in it for the money. If they're making money good on them, they deserve to, but I don't believe it is only financial motives that keep them going. It's a different story for the record company of course.

Boatraceface wrote: They are in it for money, love,adulation,pride in themselves,making magic stuff that no one else does like only they can.They must love it.What's not to love?Getting rich is part of the deal now..They are reaping what they sowed and still creating..What other band of near 50 year olds are still writing great tunes?New Order are picking up speed and seemingly loving it on stage,Its great that they are seeing the money now...

right on.

I aggree that they deserve every penny they have, from what I gather they worked pretty close to death, and you cant blame them for wanting a bit of dare I day "old age" comfort.

But I think that without Gretton, however flawed he was from an accounting point of view - they wouldnt have made the songs they did, and we would be left with a band as big as U2 and 3 more Republics from the mid 80s on.

My point is that good, proper, playing the rules, using the market management doesnt support inventive and original music.

I just suspect that Robs touch is missing. I may be wrong, cause I havent been around too long, but it seems like he was responsible for the "veil of secrecy" that surrounded NewOrder, and for them generally "not playing the industry" - doing interviews, getting "Guest Stars" etc.

Anyhow, thanks for the contributuions so far. I do like to hear what the older fans around here have to say.

ahh yes the enigmatic vail of secrecy. i will let peter hook explain this and i quote. "rob used to tell us to sit there and say nowt,he said we was that thick we would fuck it all up". just goes to show that he was playing the game a tad what?

Clockwork C wrote:

My point is that good, proper, playing the rules, using the market management doesnt support inventive and original music.

it depends on the artist. there are bands who aren't signed to major labels because, well, they're just crap, not because they don't 'play by the rules.' and there are bands who are signed to major labels regardless of their crapiness because of the music business' version of utilitarianism: they appeal to the most people while offending the least (or because they look good). i don't think one can make a generalization that taking advantage of the market automatically makes a band lose creativity.

make as much money as you want! but use it wisely and don't let it go to your head or harden your heart....