NO not what they were, agreed?

I'm guessing that most folk here would concede that the reformed NO can't really be compared with the first time round? Its not just the music (though neither GR or WFTSC does a great deal for me) but as people have pointed out here they've lost the mystique somehow, even the track titles and cover art seem lazy. I'm not hugely bothered though. Its just middle age I guess, probably inevitable. Are there any bands that have managed to maintain the level of innovation and intensity that NO once had?

And does it make any sense to wonder what they might have produced after Republic had they not been driven apart by the financial strains of Factory and the Hacienda? Or is that an impossible question because it was the same anarchic incompetence of Factory that made it all possible in the first place?

Its like wondering what the Stone Roses would have come up with if Silvertone hadn't screwed them over, or what Oasis would have produced if they'd possessed an ounce of talent or originality in the first f***ing place.

Sorry, but I am gonna disagree on this one. I think the last two albums are much better efforts than Republic and Movement (although I do like Movement sometimes, but not really as a NO album when it's stacked up against the following efforts).

True, the percieved 'mystique' has diminished post-factory, but the mystique was always a bit of a press beat up anyway - I never really interpreted their attitude as being mysterious, just as having integrity and being well grounded. If a band doesn't want to sit around posing for photos that make them look like twats, or answer inane questions about their dead mate, it's hardly mysterious, is it?

Maybe they will never write the likes of TPK again because they already did it once?

So no, sorry - not 'agreed' at all. CTB

CTB wrote: Sorry, but I am gonna disagree on this one. I think the last two albums are much better efforts than Republic and Movement (although I do like Movement sometimes, but not really as a NO album when it's stacked up against the following efforts).

i agree--what do you mean by 'after republic'? i think they've demonstrated that they can continue to turn out top material despite (most of) republic!

Spotnick wrote: I am the only person on earth to rate Get Ready and WFTSC above of Low-Life and PC&L or what?

Yeah, I must be the only one...

We can come together with WFTSC above Low-Life... Get Ready is not bad... But nothing above PC&L for me... ;)

CTB wrote: Sorry, but I am gonna disagree on this one. I think the last two albums are much better efforts than Republic and Movement (although I do like Movement sometimes, but not really as a NO album when it's stacked up against the following efforts).

True, the percieved 'mystique' has diminished post-factory, but the mystique was always a bit of a press beat up anyway - I never really interpreted their attitude as being mysterious, just as having integrity and being well grounded. If a band doesn't want to sit around posing for photos that make them look like twats, or answer inane questions about their dead mate, it's hardly mysterious, is it?

Maybe they will never write the likes of TPK again because they already did it once?

So no, sorry - not 'agreed' at all. CTB

CTB, I'm with you here; I'm not "agreed" on the original post either. Can't judge Movement myself (I don't have it) and Republic's one of my fave NO albums but the rest of what you've said is spot on! Well done!

Cheers Miss D - good to know I wasn't out on my own there CTB

I'm with Spotnick, at least on the part about WFTSC. I really liked a lot of Get Ready, only 1 or 2 clinkers but I have to say, I loved NO from jumpstreet and find that they have remained true to themselves. Technique for me will, at least for now, remain their pinnacle for me but I am just damned glad they've chosen to hang in there and keep putting out product of consistant quality. I live for the day however that P Saville gets his creative pants back on and does something more with the packaging.

There is a huge difference if you bought an album retrospectively or not. Movement is the only one I didnt get first time round and it's no coincedence it does little for me.

For example, Low Life reminds me of a great summer of '85 regardless of the merits of the music. If I'd have bought it retrospectively then it would be half the album it is to me now.

As to whether they have lost their 'edge'.... well if you think they have then maybe you have lost your 'edge'?

404 error wrote: Are there any bands that have managed to maintain the level of innovation and intensity that NO once had?

Yes there some bands for sure. New Order and Kraftwerk for me. Slow Jam Primitive Notion Player in a League HNWYD WFTSC Dracula's Castle(forget the title) are some of the songs that got all No's trademarks.

Miss Disco wrote:

CTB wrote: Sorry, but I am gonna disagree on this one. I think the last two albums are much better efforts than Republic and Movement (although I do like Movement sometimes, but not really as a NO album when it's stacked up against the following efforts).

True, the percieved 'mystique' has diminished post-factory, but the mystique was always a bit of a press beat up anyway - I never really interpreted their attitude as being mysterious, just as having integrity and being well grounded. If a band doesn't want to sit around posing for photos that make them look like twats, or answer inane questions about their dead mate, it's hardly mysterious, is it?

Maybe they will never write the likes of TPK again because they already did it once?

So no, sorry - not 'agreed' at all. CTB

CTB, I'm with you here; I'm not "agreed" on the original post either. Can't judge Movement myself (I don't have it) and Republic's one of my fave NO albums but the rest of what you've said is spot on! Well done!

Is there any reason why you dont have movement? Seems strange considering you can pick it up most places for a fiver or less!

Uncle Liam wrote:

Is there any reason why you dont have movement? Seems strange considering you can pick it up most places for a fiver or less!

Well, I don't like JD as much as NO and I heard that Movement was very JD-esque, so I wasn't sure if I'd like it as much. That's why I don't have it.

Spotnick wrote: I am the only person on earth to rate Get Ready and WFTSC above of Low-Life and PC&L or what?

Don't get me wrong, it might be because I enjoy Turn My Way and Slow Jam compared to a lot of people here, but I can't say I enjoy all songs on Low-Life or PC&L compared to the 2 latest opus.

Yeah, I must be the only one...

You are the only one.

Technique : Its all been downhill after that I think. Low Life Brotherhood Technique, and associated singles : I dont know if any band will ever reach that level ever. Whatever happened in those records was magic.

Ah right.

Ever though about buying to make up your own mind?

Clockwork C wrote:

Spotnick wrote: I am the only person on earth to rate Get Ready and WFTSC above of Low-Life and PC&L or what?

Don't get me wrong, it might be because I enjoy Turn My Way and Slow Jam compared to a lot of people here, but I can't say I enjoy all songs on Low-Life or PC&L compared to the 2 latest opus.

Yeah, I must be the only one...

You are the only one.

Technique : Its all been downhill after that I think. Low Life Brotherhood Technique, and associated singles : I dont know if any band will ever reach that level ever. Whatever happened in those records was magic.

NO he's not. Get Ready is great, albeit a little inconsistent. WFTSC is the same. Never really got Brotherhood myself.

I think this band comes in peaks and troughs, so it's hard to answer this one. Ceremony's my favourite New Order track so I guess it's all been downhill for me since the day dot? And Low-Life's my desert island disc, by a country mile

Couldnt agree more

IMHO, Get Ready was the first album where New Order finally realised how to make an album with more than three good songs on it.

I've probably annoyed 3/4 of the people on the board here, but N.O were a singles band, realistically.

Bollocks.

great album tracks:

Movement- Dreams Never End PCL- Age of Consent Low Life- Sunrise Brotherhood- Paradise Technique- Vanishing Point Republic- Special Get Ready- Primitive Notion WFTSC- Turn

i'm relatively sure these were all album tracks anyway.

Clockwork C wrote:

Spotnick wrote: I am the only person on earth to rate Get Ready and WFTSC above of Low-Life and PC&L or what?

Don't get me wrong, it might be because I enjoy Turn My Way and Slow Jam compared to a lot of people here, but I can't say I enjoy all songs on Low-Life or PC&L compared to the 2 latest opus.

Yeah, I must be the only one...

You are the only one.

Technique : Its all been downhill after that I think. Low Life Brotherhood Technique, and associated singles : I dont know if any band will ever reach that level ever. Whatever happened in those records was magic.

Its hard to have hit, after hit in every album.

Uncle Liam wrote: Bollocks.

great album tracks:

Movement- Dreams Never End PCL- Age of Consent Low Life- Sunrise Brotherhood- Paradise Technique- Vanishing Point Republic- Special Get Ready- Primitive Notion WFTSC- Turn

i'm relatively sure these were all album tracks anyway.

All you need is a couple good songs per album and thats what makes it a good album.

go and actually listen to the albums and i'll think you'll find that most of them have more than a "couple of good songs"

hell, even the universally slated republic has four good songs (regret, EVeryone Everywhere, Special and World for the record)

Are you suggesting that each of the albums only has a couple of good songs?

First Off I really like the album cover...It's simple and direct. I wear the T-shirt and people know what it is and I think NO deserve that respect at this point. Even if they don't know what it is they wonder about it and that was what made the original covers great. They made you wonder...hhhmmmmmm

As for the albums they are typical NO...They don't blow your mind away but if you continue to listen you find that you just can't get em out of your head...barring jetstream and rock a shack.

Low-life is still my alltime favorite but I think what makes NO great is that you'll have every end of the spectrum on a forum telling you why they like this or hate that...so there's no formula. A very rare thing in music these days.

JUST AGREE WITH ME!!!!

((((E))))

Uncle Liam wrote: Bollocks.

great album tracks:

Movement- Dreams Never End PCL- Age of Consent Low Life- Sunrise Brotherhood- Paradise Technique- Vanishing Point Republic- Special Get Ready- Primitive Notion WFTSC- Turn

i'm relatively sure these were all album tracks anyway.

Dreams Never End = Mediocre. Truth is better. Age of Consent = Have to agree with you Sunrise = Horribly dated Paradise = Weirdo is far better Vanishing Point = All The Way is far better Special = Horrible. Young Offender all the way.

Technique's overrated...Sorry, just felt like saying that... Movement was a great album back in the 80s, I was very influenced by it. And Crystal rocks...best song I heard for about 15 years or so...

Uncle Liam wrote: go and actually listen to the albums and i'll think you'll find that most of them have more than a "couple of good songs"

hell, even the universally slated republic has four good songs (regret, EVeryone Everywhere, Special and World for the record)

Are you suggesting that each of the albums only has a couple of good songs?

YES.

Wasn't Republic the album containing just one decent song? Regret? Or something like that? Ahh, obviously Ruined In A Day is also on Republic, but the title's much better than the song...

Al Jarvis wrote: I think this band comes in peaks and troughs, so it's hard to answer this one. Ceremony's my favourite New Order track so I guess it's all been downhill for me since the day dot? And Low-Life's my desert island disc, by a country mile, so again that's 20 years they've been going downhill? Think the majority here would say Technique was the band's peak, but I'll be fuct if I can find anything on that album which even comes close to subsequent tracks like Regret and Crystal. It's just swings and roundabouts.

It is so reassuring to see an accurate assessment of both Low-life and Technique. Sometimes I think I'm the only one who feels this way.

Christopher Owens wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote: go and actually listen to the albums and i'll think you'll find that most of them have more than a "couple of good songs"

hell, even the universally slated republic has four good songs (regret, EVeryone Everywhere, Special and World for the record)

Are you suggesting that each of the albums only has a couple of good songs?

YES.

Ok then. so what songs on Low life arent that good then?

Patrick wrote:

Al Jarvis wrote: I think this band comes in peaks and troughs, so it's hard to answer this one. Ceremony's my favourite New Order track so I guess it's all been downhill for me since the day dot? And Low-Life's my desert island disc, by a country mile, so again that's 20 years they've been going downhill? Think the majority here would say Technique was the band's peak, but I'll be fuct if I can find anything on that album which even comes close to subsequent tracks like Regret and Crystal. It's just swings and roundabouts.

It is so reassuring to see an accurate assessment of both Low-life and Technique. Sometimes I think I'm the only one who feels this way.

There's good and bad on every album.

The good usually outweighs the bad by far.

I just wish I had half the talent they had to make those songs.

((((e))))

Uncle Liam wrote:

Christopher Owens wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote: go and actually listen to the albums and i'll think you'll find that most of them have more than a "couple of good songs"

hell, even the universally slated republic has four good songs (regret, EVeryone Everywhere, Special and World for the record)

Are you suggesting that each of the albums only has a couple of good songs?

YES.

Ok then. so what songs on Low life arent that good then?

The edited version of Perfect Kiss. Otherwise, a great piece of work overall.

Uncle Liam wrote:

Ok then. so what songs on Low life arent that good then?

Love Vigilantes This Time of Night Sunrise Elegia Sub Culture Face Up

While it is hailed as the definitive N.O album, I found it horribly dated. Other albums stand up perfectly well. Strange that.

well you heard it here first! Low Life dated.

no wonder they dont play in belfast!

heres what i dont get, you said that each album only has a couple of good songs, and then on you say that the other albums stand up quite well. bit of a contradiction there!

Not really. I'm talking about the production of the albums. Put Power,Corruption and Lies against Low Life and PC&L wins hands down. It sounds more modern than Low Life,

So it's not a contradiction, is it?

It's all subjective, listen to the best thing they have done - HURT

Christopher Owens wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote:

Ok then. so what songs on Low life arent that good then?

Love Vigilantes This Time of Night Sunrise Elegia Sub Culture Face Up

While it is hailed as the definitive N.O album, I found it horribly dated. Other albums stand up perfectly well. Strange that.

I think it is going to incredibly difficult to find an album, 20 years ago, which is not in the least bit dated by today's standards. And, on a similar note, in response to the original post, NO is still the same band they were 20 years ago, minus Gillian, but merely operate under new conditions, which include the technological advancements made in music!
Think about the changes which New Order has undergone within how their music is distributed: first on LPS and vinyl, and cassettes, then CDs, and finally some digital thing called an mp3! It's not hard to imagine then how technology has advanced through the years making anything from the 80s seem dated by today's standards. Heck, even Technique, only 4 years older than Low-Life, sounds like it's an entire world apart! Is it any real surprise what 20 years has produced? By yesterday's standards though, NO were beyond other artists. It's hard to remember that, and it's even harder to enjoy something which sounds like it's out of the 80s - because it is - but when you grasp what NO was and what they are, there's not a lot of differences - just progression.

Digital Mike Binoche wrote: It's all subjective

amen to that.

this thread is indicative of why men are unable to run the world without resorting to violence.

*awaiting angry replies*

"If you like/dislike ______ album/song/remix/facial expression/live performance that I don't, then you're not a real fan."

Digital Mike Binoche wrote: It's all subjective, listen to the best thing they have done - HURT

Very true.

Speaks wrote:

Heck, even Technique, only 4 years older than Low-Life, sounds like it's an entire world apart! Is it any real surprise what 20 years has produced?:

Although I certainly agree with where you're coming from, what I am suggesting is that Low Life is their most 80's sounding album, due to the production and the sound of the synths. As a result of that, I find it grating on my ears. Other albums, like PC&L, Brotherhood and even Technique stand up much better nowadays due to the better production and better synths. That's why I feel they still stand up against a new album released today.

Speaks wrote:

By yesterday's standards though, NO were beyond other artists. It's hard to remember that, and it's even harder to enjoy something which sounds like it's out of the 80s - because it is - but when you grasp what NO was and what they are, there's not a lot of differences - just progression. :

Very true. Being young, I wouldn’t appreciate what was coming out during the 80’s, because I wouldn’t remember it. I’m a 90’s child.

AgentWood wrote:

this thread is indicative of why men are unable to run the world without resorting to violence.

*awaiting angry replies*

Interesting reply. However, I was only stating my opinion. Not expecting to get into a full scale argument with other fans.

Hannett of the Apes wrote: "If you like/dislike ______ album/song/remix/facial expression/live performance that I don't, then you're not a real fan."

Captures Uncle Liam perfectly.

They ain't genre defining, media thwarting, counter-culture pioneers anymore, but they're still great.

This thread is depressing.

AgentWood wrote:

CTB wrote: Sorry, but I am gonna disagree on this one. I think the last two albums are much better efforts than Republic and Movement (although I do like Movement sometimes, but not really as a NO album when it's stacked up against the following efforts).

i agree--what do you mean by 'after republic'? i think they've demonstrated that they can continue to turn out top material despite (most of) republic!

Perhaps I'm in a minority in actually rather rating Republic. Not up there with LL/PCL obviously, but apart from a couple of duff album tracks I actually like it a lot. Certainly more than the last two. Even the better tracks (crystal, sly, turn etc) were merely good, not particularly exciting. IMO anyway. Actually I'm also probably in a minority in considering Jetstream as one of the better recent efforts (at least it was an attempt at something different, rather than NO-by-numbers).

Barney Army wrote:

As to whether they have lost their 'edge'.... well if you think they have then maybe you have lost your 'edge'?

I wouldn't necessarily argue with that, probably its as much about my getting on a bit as their doing so.

Ruined in a day wrote: Technique's overrated...Sorry, just felt like saying that... Movement was a great album back in the 80s, I was very influenced by it. And Crystal rocks...best song I heard for about 15 years or so...

I agree that Technique seems to be a trifle over-rated by some, and I personally liked Movement - maybe it had to be heard in context, a band 'finding their way' etc. And while Crystal is a good song, it still doesn't seem to have the freshness the earlier stuff had. Maybe its just that everyone else has finally caught up with them now.

Anyway, I still haven't given up hope that the next lp will suprise me.

Christopher Owens wrote:

Although I certainly agree with where you're coming from, what I am suggesting is that Low Life is their most 80's sounding album, due to the production and the sound of the synths. As a result of that, I find it grating on my ears. Other albums, like PC&L, Brotherhood and even Technique stand up much better nowadays due to the better production and better synths. That's why I feel they still stand up against a new album released today.

Ironically, that's one of the reasons I love LL over Technique. I like the primitive experimental nature of the former, The latter is too slick for me. In LL I hear the creativity rather than the technology (Jeez, that sounds pretentious).

404 error wrote:

Ruined in a day wrote: Technique's overrated...Sorry, just felt like saying that... Movement was a great album back in the 80s, I was very influenced by it. And Crystal rocks...best song I heard for about 15 years or so...

I agree that Technique seems to be a trifle over-rated by some, and I personally liked Movement - maybe it had to be heard in context, a band 'finding their way' etc. And while Crystal is a good song, it still doesn't seem to have the freshness the earlier stuff had. Maybe its just that everyone else has finally caught up with them now.

Anyway, I still haven't given up hope that the next lp will suprise me.

Dear God, not the return of the whats overrated, whats underrated debate!

We should be grateful that there is such variety to spark threads like this. Apart from Gillian's absence New Order are the same as they've always been - stacks of decent tunes, occasionally brilliant, occasionally frustrating.

Can't live without 'em.

I disagree.

I think the last two albums have both been excellent, without change comes stagnation, over the last 20-25 years New Order have been the most innovative band this island has ever produced.