Movement vs. Movement live

Don't know if the issue has been thoroughly explored before on this forum, but here it goes.

Bernard said he hated Movement, yet many of its songs lingered in the set lists up through '85 or thereabouts. Did the band like the songs more than the album that came out, i.e. were they pissed off with Hannett's production?

What do long time New Order fans think, and did you find the Movement songs much more exciting in concert than on the lp?

Non decided...I think the production is second to none on Movement.It sounds like nothing else.I've only seen them perform them on 386,and they're as good as the album versions.

Live is always better except for that train wreck of Chosen Time in Atlanta. I quite fancy Movement. I wish they'd bring back some of those songs for their next gigs.

Considering Barney and Hooky hated a lot of what Hannett brought to Joy Division it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't thrilled with his production in Movement.

My opinion is similar to how I feel about Hannett's work in JD: some of the songs he did well on (DNE, Chosen Time) and some he rather sucked the life out of (Denial) but overall Movement is a really heavy album, a very good one but one I can't listen to from start to finish very often, and that's because of the songs as much as the production.

Love the recordings of the earlier gigs though.

I myself forgot to mention I prefer the Peel versions. 316 is pretty good too-especially 'Chosen Time' and 'Denial'.

Hello from Germany, I still think, Movement is one of their best albums. I quite don't understand their complaints about the production. The songs sounded rough and more energetic live, but that's true for nearly every album I could think off. Movement sounds very cold and distanced, nearly aseptic at times, but, if I don't get something wrong, it isn't just the production. The basslines in many of the songs, for example, are even more reduced than in Joy Division songs. On the other hand, when Hook gets really melodic, as in Doubts even here, it's more upfront than before. What I like about Movement: the heavy distorted guitars are gone, the entire album sounds very "electronic", esp. the drum sounds, but it's still not related to dance music as the later New Order stuff. Not being a native speaker, it's hard to judge the lyrics, but it seems to me that some songs really sound like written by a 11 year old boy (It's a strange day...), while the lyrics to Doubts Even Here, esp. all the stuff that is hard to figure out, is brilliant. Crucify me, but Movement productionwise sounds very much like 17 Seconds and Faith by the Cure. It's full of emotions, but these emotions and the expression is intentional buried under a kind of prozak filter.

Dirk

I think they hated Movement on two levels: - it was difficult to write the songs in the first place, and they weren't happy with the way Hannett once again filtered their sound through a mogadon haze.

They were happy with the songs when they had been written, and most of them survived well into 1985 in the setlist rotation. In a live environment, they all had a lot more energy and spark to them.

Truth bit the dust in 83, Senses in 1984, ICB, Denial, The Him and Chosen Time all made it into 85, Dreams Never End lasted a while longer. Doubts Even Here was the only one that got sawn off, as early as May 81.

I think Dirk makes some good points about 'electronic but not dance'. Also good point about the prominence of the drum treatments. Perhaps the fact that it was pre-sequencer gives it a feel of 'almost dance' in places. Yes, Barney for one definitely thought that Martin H was arseing about more than helping them.

I could bore everyone shitless about why I think Movement is their best album, and one of the best 5 albums made by anybody ever, and I probably have done this to death on here before, so I'll spare you this time! But yes....the live versions of virtually all of the songs were fantastic. I wish I'd seen them do Doubts Even Here live, but looking at the live browser, half of the gigs were in bloody Scotland!

DC wrote: I think Dirk makes some good points about 'electronic but not dance'. Also good point about the prominence of the drum treatments. Perhaps the fact that it was pre-sequencer gives it a feel of 'almost dance' in places. Yes, Barney for one definitely thought that Martin H was arseing about more than helping them.

I could bore everyone shitless about why I think Movement is their best album, and one of the best 5 albums made by anybody ever, and I probably have done this to death on here before, so I'll spare you this time! But yes....the live versions of virtually all of the songs were fantastic. I wish I'd seen them do Doubts Even Here live, but looking at the live browser, half of the gigs were in bloody Scotland!

Bore away. Id love to hear your reasons why you think Movement is one of the best albums ever made (especially when I can think of 7 NO albums that are better).

I don't think you could say Movement was a good album. There are a few good songs on it like Senses and Dreams Never End, but, on the whole, most of them aren't quite there, which I believe Steve and Barney have said. But they do sound better live if you see 3:16.

Much better live.

Movement kicks the shit out of the band's girly dance albums like Technique. End of.

NO Regret wrote:

DC wrote: I think Dirk makes some good points about 'electronic but not dance'. Also good point about the prominence of the drum treatments. Perhaps the fact that it was pre-sequencer gives it a feel of 'almost dance' in places. Yes, Barney for one definitely thought that Martin H was arseing about more than helping them.

I could bore everyone shitless about why I think Movement is their best album, and one of the best 5 albums made by anybody ever, and I probably have done this to death on here before, so I'll spare you this time! But yes....the live versions of virtually all of the songs were fantastic. I wish I'd seen them do Doubts Even Here live, but looking at the live browser, half of the gigs were in bloody Scotland!

Bore away. Id love to hear your reasons why you think Movement is one of the best albums ever made (especially when I can think of 7 NO albums that are better).

There's a link to a long piece I wrote, which is enough for most people I would think! Anyway, it's totally subjective but my reasons for liking Movement better than any other NO album are many and varied. I find a lot of bands more interesting when they're finding their feet, than when they've settled into a routine of how they write, how they record etc. There are more experiments, more hit and miss and often more passion. Great as Technique is, I think they lost something when they stopped road-testing and experimenting with songs onstage before recording them. Also, I saw NO a lot during the Movement period, and those gigs and that material made a really strong impression. I guess Movement is like marmite really - love it or hate it, there's little in between. I can see how it could seem cold and forbidding to someone who came to New Order later on. I'll say more later maybe.

Shug wrote: ...but for me I could never quite understand why Denial was still being played in 87!

Actually they dropped it in 1986, the last "Denial" was during the first night in Dublin in January.

I don't think the production on Movement is bad but I, too, have always preferred the live versions to what's on the album.

Here's my favourite live versions of Movement songs:

Dreams Never End: Polytechnic 1985 (great guitar interplay) Truth: Milan 1982 Senses: Powerhouse 1984 (incredible drumming) Chosen Time: New Orleans 1985 ICB: Fullerton 1983 (including a priceless introduction) The Him: haven't decided on this one yet Doubts Even Here: Nottingham 1981 Denial: Powerhouse 1984 (for the same reason as Senses)

His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Movement kicks the shit out of the band's girly dance albums like Technique. End of.

Thats your opinion but I couldnt disagree any less. Id rather have polished finished songs than shoddy demos that sound liek theyve been recorded through a baked bean can.

DC wrote:

NO Regret wrote:

DC wrote: I think Dirk makes some good points about 'electronic but not dance'. Also good point about the prominence of the drum treatments. Perhaps the fact that it was pre-sequencer gives it a feel of 'almost dance' in places. Yes, Barney for one definitely thought that Martin H was arseing about more than helping them.

I could bore everyone shitless about why I think Movement is their best album, and one of the best 5 albums made by anybody ever, and I probably have done this to death on here before, so I'll spare you this time! But yes....the live versions of virtually all of the songs were fantastic. I wish I'd seen them do Doubts Even Here live, but looking at the live browser, half of the gigs were in bloody Scotland!

Bore away. Id love to hear your reasons why you think Movement is one of the best albums ever made (especially when I can think of 7 NO albums that are better).

There's a link to a long piece I wrote, which is enough for most people I would think! Anyway, it's totally subjective but my reasons for liking Movement better than any other NO album are many and varied. I find a lot of bands more interesting when they're finding their feet, than when they've settled into a routine of how they write, how they record etc. There are more experiments, more hit and miss and often more passion. Great as Technique is, I think they lost something when they stopped road-testing and experimenting with songs onstage before recording them. Also, I saw NO a lot during the Movement period, and those gigs and that material made a really strong impression. I guess Movement is like marmite really - love it or hate it, there's little in between. I can see how it could seem cold and forbidding to someone who came to New Order later on. I'll say more later maybe.

I take your point. Maybe, as I only got into NO from 1987, I view the back catalogue from a different angle. And I do miss the experimental aspect of their work. I do like most of the Movement songs that appeared on the Peel Session LP and on 316 DVD. I just didnt get the whole cold, alienated, frosty, guitar hidden in mix production of Movement and would have loved to have heard the re-recorded version NO wanted to do.

Movement is the sound of New Order searching for their own musical path after the suicide of Ian Curtis signaled the end of Joy Division. The album paints an extremely vivid picture that the band was struggling to find their own identity. The ghost of Ian Curtis hangs over each song like decaying bark. For starters, Bernard Sumner affects such a deep croon that it could be seen as an attempt to mimic the sad and somber vocal style of Curtis. When his vocals aren't deep enough, producer Martin Hannett steps in with a sound processor, and one is left with the unsettling notion that the band is treading on ground that almost smells of exploitation. Movement's music is strangely non-energized.

The sound experimentation of Joy Division, much of it courtesy of Hannett, is everywhere. Tribal beats mar much of the album, as they relentlessly arise on nearly every song. Etched sound effects and weird tweaked and warped synth washes rise and bubble throughout.

But what worked beautifully with Curtis at the creative helm barely gets New Order off the launch pad. Only "Dreams Never End," "Denial," and "Truth" represent the lighter sides of the band that would form over later albums. "Dreams Never End" is endlessly fascinating; it might have been a perfect B-side to Joy Division's "Love Will Tear Us Apart" in an alternate reality. "Truth" shows postmodern hints not dissimilar to "Blue Monday," though gloomy gothic emotion pours out of the keyboards. On the remaining songs, a couple of near-dance tempos do crop up and the synth tones occasionally turn optimistic, but otherwise New Order seems thoroughly stuck in the past, unable to express the range of emotions and the expressive musical flourishes that seemed to flow effortlessly from Curtis.

Movement is decidedly murky, and it's best left unexplored until one has thoroughly appreciated Joy Division's studio albums and Substance. There's not much on Movement to suggest that New Order would become the dance-oriented powerhouse they would become. Fans of the band who don't care for Joy Division should steer clear. Those who appreciate both Joy Division and New Order will find the album an essential, if flawed, debut. ~ Tim DiGravina, All Music Guide

NO Regret wrote:

DC wrote:

NO Regret wrote:

DC wrote: I think Dirk makes some good points about 'electronic but not dance'. Also good point about the prominence of the drum treatments. Perhaps the fact that it was pre-sequencer gives it a feel of 'almost dance' in places. Yes, Barney for one definitely thought that Martin H was arseing about more than helping them.

I could bore everyone shitless about why I think Movement is their best album, and one of the best 5 albums made by anybody ever, and I probably have done this to death on here before, so I'll spare you this time! But yes....the live versions of virtually all of the songs were fantastic. I wish I'd seen them do Doubts Even Here live, but looking at the live browser, half of the gigs were in bloody Scotland!

Bore away. Id love to hear your reasons why you think Movement is one of the best albums ever made (especially when I can think of 7 NO albums that are better).

There's a link to a long piece I wrote, which is enough for most people I would think! Anyway, it's totally subjective but my reasons for liking Movement better than any other NO album are many and varied. I find a lot of bands more interesting when they're finding their feet, than when they've settled into a routine of how they write, how they record etc. There are more experiments, more hit and miss and often more passion. Great as Technique is, I think they lost something when they stopped road-testing and experimenting with songs onstage before recording them. Also, I saw NO a lot during the Movement period, and those gigs and that material made a really strong impression. I guess Movement is like marmite really - love it or hate it, there's little in between. I can see how it could seem cold and forbidding to someone who came to New Order later on. I'll say more later maybe.

I take your point. Maybe, as I only got into NO from 1987, I view the back catalogue from a different angle. And I do miss the experimental aspect of their work. I do like most of the Movement songs that appeared on the Peel Session LP and on 316 DVD. I just didnt get the whole cold, alienated, frosty, guitar hidden in mix production of Movement and would have loved to have heard the re-recorded version NO wanted to do.

Well I think there's plenty of guitar on Movement, but they're either doing some v.interesting and unconventional things, or placed in a unusual spot in the mix. e.g the brittle funky guitars in Chosen Time and Senses, the untutored wall-of-noise (Gillian?) in the chorus of Truth, the foggy swirl of Denial. The imaginitive guitar work is one of Movement's real strengths.

Fogface wrote:

Shug wrote: ...but for me I could never quite understand why Denial was still being played in 87!

Actually they dropped it in 1986, the last "Denial" was during the first night in Dublin in January.

I don't think the production on Movement is bad but I, too, have always preferred the live versions to what's on the album.

Here's my favourite live versions of Movement songs:

Dreams Never End: Polytechnic 1985 (great guitar interplay) Truth: Milan 1982 Senses: Powerhouse 1984 (incredible drumming) Chosen Time: New Orleans 1985 ICB: Fullerton 1983 (including a priceless introduction) The Him: haven't decided on this one yet Doubts Even Here: Nottingham 1981 Denial: Powerhouse 1984 (for the same reason as Senses)

We can only assume that Dublin 86 was the last ever Denial - there are at least six US gigs in 1986 that we don't have setlist information for, and the one thing that is constant about New Order sets in those days was that nothing was ever set in stone.

For the best live versions of Movement songs, look no further than the May 81 tour dates. Berlin, Hamburg, Gothenburg, Stockholm, all fabulous. The band were superb on this tour, some of their best ever performances, and cracking sound quality recordings as well!

Fogface wrote:

Shug wrote: ...but for me I could never quite understand why Denial was still being played in 87!

Actually they dropped it in 1986, the last "Denial" was during the first night in Dublin in January.

I don't think the production on Movement is bad but I, too, have always preferred the live versions to what's on the album.

Here's my favourite live versions of Movement songs:

Dreams Never End: Polytechnic 1985 (great guitar interplay) Truth: Milan 1982 Senses: Powerhouse 1984 (incredible drumming) Chosen Time: New Orleans 1985 ICB: Fullerton 1983 (including a priceless introduction) The Him: haven't decided on this one yet Doubts Even Here: Nottingham 1981 Denial: Powerhouse 1984 (for the same reason as Senses)

The Him? I'd go for East Leagues Club 20.05.1985. Great version IMHO.

His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Movement kicks the shit out of the band's girly dance albums like Technique. End of.

Shug wrote:

Fogface wrote:

Shug wrote: ...but for me I could never quite understand why Denial was still being played in 87!

Actually they dropped it in 1986, the last "Denial" was during the first night in Dublin in January.

You must have looked this up then which is very anal matey. I was going from memory :D

Oh, I can be very anal often, but I actually remembered this one because I have a copy of that gig. ;)

oldmonkey wrote:

For the best live versions of Movement songs, look no further than the May 81 tour dates. Berlin, Hamburg, Gothenburg, Stockholm, all fabulous. The band were superb on this tour, some of their best ever performances, and cracking sound quality recordings as well!

I don't have Gothenburg, but I've heard the rest, they are pretty great; especially those extended EGGs. BooomBoom and whoever taped Stockholm did an outstanding job.

Actually this could get interesting. I'd pay good money for 'best live version' of Album tracks done by album.

I'd pay fookin loads for a live version of WFTSC

for its time movement the album was an incredible piece of work especially under the circumstances surrounding it. but i always thought that it came to life more in the live and peel sessions. the energy of some of the tracks still shines through to this day,after martin hannet died hooky was asked about working with him ect and i remember him saying how the band would always go into the studio with songs with an idea of how they wanted them to sound ect and they would always leave the studio with something they hadnt expected. which is what i suspect the case with movement to have been and in the bands eyes was probally for them at least the album that never was as it sounded nothing like what they had in mind. that said i love movement and think hannet did a cracking job on most of the stuff he did with them,and lets face it,if he had lived he would have probally been one of the few folk around to keep barney under control in the studio. well thats my tupence.

Barney Army wrote: Actually this could get interesting. I'd pay good money for 'best live version' of Album tracks done by album.

I'd pay fookin loads for a live version of WFTSC

Theyd have to pay me to have a live version of WFTSC (one of NO's wettish tracks!).