why is NO not performing this live?? i think most of the noolers would agree that this is the best track they have written since technique. SO BARNEY IF YOU ARE READING THIS PLS ADD IN YOUR TO DO LIST....:D
Dates
· UTC
the forgotten song "Here to Stay"
Archived48 replies · 1,434 views
This is an archived legacy thread. Replies are closed, but the discussion is preserved.
too many technical gadgets to set up for one song, perhaps? their reason for not playing songs off technique, i believe. i agree with you though, i would like to hear it live :)
With their songs mostly preprogrammed nowadays anyway, I don't see why they wouldn't play it. Isn't it almost the only single (other than Murder?) that they have never played live?
It is possible, although it might sound like crap. Wasn't Shellshock just Gillian holding down some keys while Barney sang?
kino zon wrote: why is NO not performing this live?? i think most of the noolers would agree that this is the best track they have written since technique.
I wouldn't, it's alright but no Crystal or Regret. Too formulaic, New Order by numbers.
I'd love to see it live, the chance has probably gone to see it, otherwise they would have played it at Move. It's not surfaced for the summer festivals so I doubt it will surface in Manchester next month. Shame really, cos I really like it.
They won't play it because there's no guitar for poor little Phil...! 
In my opinion, Here To Stay is the way foreward for N.O. Think about it:
- New Order have always been about dance music. Since the Technique days, Dance has evolved and changed, and the only real track that's been with the current musical pulse of Dance is HTS. Imagine, New order crossed with the Prodigy or something! This Rock bullshit they're stuck in (in my opinion because of Phil) is fine, but only is it has the dance aspects. So come on, NO, start innovating again!
There we go!
Jim Bob wrote: New Order have always been about dance music.
say what? surely you've heard their many 'non-dance music' songs? new order make great dance music, but they are equally proficient at making music that isn't 'dance.'
Jim Bob wrote: Imagine, New order crossed with the Prodigy or something! This Rock bullshit they're stuck in (in my opinion because of Phil) is fine, but only is it has the dance aspects. So come on, NO, start innovating again!
Er, have you not seen the Prodigy recently?! They're rockier than New Order could ever hope to be, especially live!
Al Jarvis wrote:
kino zon wrote: why is NO not performing this live?? i think most of the noolers would agree that this is the best track they have written since technique.
I wouldn't, it's alright but no Crystal or Regret. Too formulaic, New Order by numbers.
"New Order by numbers"? Surely that would include almost all of the new album, save the title track and Turn, though Here to Stay beats the hell out of everything else on said new album hands down.
Jim Bob wrote:
In my opinion, Here To Stay is the way foreward for N.O. Think about it:
- New Order have always been about dance music. Since the Technique days, Dance has evolved and changed, and the only real track that's been with the current musical pulse of Dance is HTS. Imagine, New order crossed with the Prodigy or something! This Rock bullshit they're stuck in (in my opinion because of Phil) is fine, but only is it has the dance aspects. So come on, NO, start innovating again!
New Order IS/WAS Joy Division! ... they have never been a Depeche Mode type synth "band"...
and seriously, to expect New Order to start innovating again when they are near 50 and when digital programming is so different from, what they were doing in the 80s... it's very unrealistic
let them have fun... and Here To Stay hardly forward thinking, it's intentionally retro thinking, and the song barely made a ripple when it was released
Jim Bob wrote: They won't play it because there's no guitar for poor little Phil...!
It's getting really dull reading posts ganging up on Phil for New Order's current guitar sound; he's a convenient scapegoat and an easy target 
It's also incredibly dumb how some fans equate Phil holding a guitar to him being responsible for New Order's guitar-driven direction since 2001. How exactly do you come to this conclusion? Were you with the band in the studio when they were writing the tunes? Nope, didn't think so. It's just assumed as he holds a guitar "Big nasty evil Phil won't let New Order do dance tracks because he wants to riff.." Puh-lease, that's a boring and lazy conclusion. Phil's alright in my book 
alot of fans simply can't forgive him for not being Gillian.
The truth is Barney and Hooky are the driving force behind the band's guitar orientated material. Barney is a big fan of Neil Young, Led Zeppelin and also from the last Electronic album he's now more in favour of jamming out songs rather than sitting endlessly programming sequencers. He's said as much in at least half a dozen interviews I've heard. These days he's content to leave the electronic music to younger bands/remixers because as New Order don't go clubbing as much they felt they couldn't be as innovative with that type of music anymore.
I agree with Mr Jarvis that HTS is formulaic New Order; it's a solid track but slightly underwhelming and the production's a bit sterile. After repeated listenings alot of HTS could be seen as a pastiche of the band's past offerings, only worse. The Blue Monday "Ahhhh" at the start, the token electro gurgles, the tinny guitar riff... I do like the song but I wouldn't call it a leap forward IMO.
As for HTS being the last track to keep up with current dance music trends, have you not heard Guilt Is A Useless Emotion yet? 
They've still got at least one toe in the dance pool, perhaps we'll hear more on the next album 
I def am a big fan of HTS...I've always liked their dance records just as much as the their guitar riffed tracks.
Phil is an easy target but so what...that's what you get and I'm sure he doesn't give a rat's ass what people think about him.
They just need to stay away from the rock a shacks and working overtimes cause they are painful.
((((e))))
pumped full of drugs wrote:
New Order IS/WAS Joy Division! ... they have never been a Depeche Mode type synth "band"...
and seriously, to expect New Order to start innovating again when they are near 50 and when digital programming is so different from, what they were doing in the 80s... it's very unrealistic
let them have fun... and Here To Stay hardly forward thinking, it's intentionally retro thinking, and the song barely made a ripple when it was released
You obviously haven't heard Technique or Republic.
Depeche Mode are great.
Being 50's no excuse for not innovating. Look at Kraftwerk, for Christ's sake!
And, aside...
The Prodigy ,as that guy said above, aren't 'rocky'. 75% of their tracks have no guitar at all.
I'm not 'ganging up on Phil'. It was just a joke. (although I still dislike his guiatr outlook, but I don't mind him on the band)
Thank you...
Jim Bob wrote:
You obviously haven't heard Technique or Republic.
The Prodigy ,as that guy said above, aren't 'rocky'. 75% of their tracks have no guitar at all.
as for point 1: 
technique consistently wins as best NO album whenever 'best album' polls are done on this site (not my favourite but lots of NOOLers swear by it). as for republic...a rather poor album, but i think you'll find all of us have heard it.
point 2: you're right, the prodigy don't necessarily use guitars, but that doesn't mean they don't sound 'rocky.' liam, keith & co. have created fast, grinding music that is much more akin to heavy rock music than new order's.
Jim Bob wrote: They won't play it because there's no guitar for poor little Phil...!
In my opinion, Here To Stay is the way foreward for N.O. Think about it:
- New Order have always been about dance music. Since the Technique days, Dance has evolved and changed, and the only real track that's been with the current musical pulse of Dance is HTS. Imagine, New order crossed with the Prodigy or something! This Rock bullshit they're stuck in (in my opinion because of Phil) is fine, but only is it has the dance aspects. So come on, NO, start innovating again!
There we go!
I definitely agree with you on this one! I wonder about their new album, though. There was a rumour they were going back to their 'roots'. Even if you think about some of the JD songs, for example, Digital, Isolation.....these tracks were already much more about sophisticated dance music rather than some kind of rock bullshit. Think Kraftwerk!
HTS was better than the whole of Get Ready. I'll say that much.
But wasn't it a collaboration with the Chemical Brothers? I assume they could recreate all the sounds if they wanted to so maybe it's a copyright thing or maybe they just don't want people to be happy? I don't know why they wouldn't play it live?
Anchor Girl wrote:
Jim Bob wrote: They won't play it because there's no guitar for poor little Phil...!
In my opinion, Here To Stay is the way foreward for N.O. Think about it:
- New Order have always been about dance music. Since the Technique days, Dance has evolved and changed, and the only real track that's been with the current musical pulse of Dance is HTS. Imagine, New order crossed with the Prodigy or something! This Rock bullshit they're stuck in (in my opinion because of Phil) is fine, but only is it has the dance aspects. So come on, NO, start innovating again!
There we go!
I definitely agree with you on this one! I wonder about their new album, though. There was a rumour they were going back to their 'roots'. Even if you think about some of the JD songs, for example, Digital, Isolation.....these tracks were already much more about sophisticated dance music rather than some kind of rock bullshit. Think Kraftwerk!
yes, JD were influenced by kraftwerk but they also recorded some pretty heavy songs.
what about shadowplay? one of the greatest guitar riffs in their back catalogue, for sure? novelty's guitar riff is pretty damn good, as well. and warsaw? that's about as 'anti-dance' as a song can get. same with failures and (to a lesser extent) dead souls. the list goes on....
It's a decent song and I reckon a crowd lifter, like World in Motion and you can take that how you like...
"Dance" tracks, "rock" tracks...put em all in a pot and select a few...it might make for a stop/start show hearing a song from Technique (say) next to one from "Movement" but it's bloody good fun for a fan...
For those talking about dance and rock tracks - has no one noticed the guitar and bass in HTS? Great stuff. They played it 'live' on TOTP but I suppose that doesnt count.
Wasim wrote: For those talking about dance and rock tracks - has no one noticed the guitar and bass in HTS? Great stuff. They played it 'live' on TOTP but I suppose that doesnt count.
Well, technically they mimed it on TOTP, so it really doesn't count! :D
I don't really see how it's a 'forgotten' track though, it's one of my fave singles of the recent output, and is no more formulaic than Crystal, which is still a good track but not worthy of the 'top 5 best NO singles' adulation that it seems to get IMHO (sorry Al).
CTB
CTB wrote: I don't really see how it's a 'forgotten' track though, it's one of my fave singles of the recent output, and is no more formulaic than Crystal, which is still a good track but not worthy of the 'top 5 best NO singles' adulation that it seems to get IMHO (sorry Al). CTB
Crystal is not formulaic to my ears, it has a spontaneous punch and energy which was fresh and entirely new (especially for New Order) around the time initial MP3s were leaked onto the net. I seem to recall I didn't really like it that much at first (the premix version I heard) but that was my mistake as it's grew on me quickly! I always suggest it to people I know if they're interested in getting into the band, it's just cool as fuck in my book. I personally consider it to be one of their finest singles and it's definitely my choice if I'm in the mood to hear the harsher side of New Order's sound. On the other hand 60 Miles an Hour which was written around the same time as Crystal I consider to be utter bollocks; a total throwaway guitar dirge with no melody or redeeming features at all!
Crystal was one of those rare moments where fans and press alike realised this was a track worth getting excited about, it's why the band frequently open their live sets with it. Unfortunately IMO Here To Stay has about half the energy or punch even though I do give it a spin now and then I think it's Barney's guitar riff that makes Crystal, it's untouchable by comparison..
Well, there you go - just goes to show the diversity of tastes here.
I realise I'm in the minority for not rating Crystal as one of their best, but I can't help my opinion. Personally I think it sounds like they recycled a riff off Paradise, and I think the album version is too long and musically undifferentiated (the verses and chorus are basically the same chords over & over). Maybe I'm suffering from over-exposure to it; I've just listened to it too much in the last 4 years. I might even have had Crystal fatigue before it was released, in all honesty due to the excitement of new material back in 2001.
Don't get me wrong - the single edit packs a punch and is a corker, and a lot of fun can be had by playing along to the track on guitar, but there are better songs on GR IMHO.
Just an opinion
CTB
'Guilt Is a Useless Emotion' aptly demonstrates why they should stick with the guitar based tunes with electronic elements rather than attempt straight up 'dance' tunes. It sounds like an oput take from 'Raise The Pressure' or something. The stuff that Barney was doing in the early/mid 80s with Marcel King/Be Music/52 St etc. on Factory sound smore modern than this nonsense - absolutely cringeworthy on every level.
Should have got The Chems/Rick Smith or someone like that in rather than LRD. Much preferred Steve Osbourne's production on Get Ready - WFTSC just doesn't feel right to me, can't get into it, the one about Count Duckula's castle put me off straight away.
Quite like HTS - would have ended 'Get Ready' quite well, don't see why they can't do it live - would be a good set closer.
Haveing said that, they can obviously do whatever the fcuk they want and will no doubt continue to do so.
Alistair wrote:
CTB wrote: I don't really see how it's a 'forgotten' track though, it's one of my fave singles of the recent output, and is no more formulaic than Crystal, which is still a good track but not worthy of the 'top 5 best NO singles' adulation that it seems to get IMHO (sorry Al). CTB
Crystal is not formulaic to my ears, it has a spontaneous punch and energy which was fresh and entirely new (especially for New Order) around the time initial MP3s were leaked onto the net. I seem to recall I didn't really like it that much at first (the premix version I heard) but that was my mistake as it's grew on me quickly! I always suggest it to people I know if they're interested in getting into the band, it's just cool as fuck in my book. I personally consider it to be one of their finest singles and it's definitely my choice if I'm in the mood to hear the harsher side of New Order's sound. On the other hand 60 Miles an Hour which was written around the same time as Crystal I consider to be utter bollocks; a total throwaway guitar dirge with no melody or redeeming features at all!
Crystal was one of those rare moments where fans and press alike realised this was a track worth getting excited about, it's why the band frequently open their live sets with it. Unfortunately IMO Here To Stay has about half the energy or punch even though I do give it a spin now and then
I couldn't disagree with you more man...
Crystal was annoying and Both 60mph and HTS are far better tracks period.
((((e))))
GIAUE and HTS are both fantastic songs (especially HTS--i think the chemicals had something to do with it), and they prove that new order are proficient at making both dance music and guitar-based songs. they are innovative.
perhaps the feeling that the band has lost the capability to innovate has to do with sentimentality, but give get ready and WFTSC a listen in ten years and i think you'll find they haven't lost that magical 'it' that so many bands lose after nearly 30 years together.
Yeah, I'm just speed reading this thread but GIAUE is a DOPE-ASS cut, period. You know, I don't know if this is true or not, but the US fans seem to really DIG New Order's dance side and the UK fans can really appreciate the rockier side of the group. Now of course there are exceptions, but, S**T, how can you say GIAUE is a bad song? The hook, bridge and chorus is INFECTIOUS!!!!
It really should be a single. 'Turn' is about as exciting as a bowel movement.
And one other thing, Kraftwerk is still innovating, age doesn't mean anything. They're all around 58. If New Order picked up a synth, I bet they'd be surprised at what kind of ideas would come forth.
