Warners about to Drop New Order?

AJ Wells wrote: If they made better music they would sell more records and wouldnt be in danger of being marginalized and ultimately trivilized on their way to being an "all-oldies" outfit doing Vegas shows without a record label

They should do the following;

Change their name as they should have when the lineup changed...

Refuse to play any old songs...

Dont play any dance music...

Drop the fat old studio musician (no, not hooky, the new guy) in favor of a younger fourth member who knows nothing of their history who can sing and play while Barney devotes himself to dancing fulltime...

Invent a new genre of music that is fresh, innovative and pushes things forward rather than backward...

Lose significant amounts of weight...

Just follow those easy steps and as yet unnamed new band will again revitalize rock music and popular culture and will have every record company in the world clamoring for them, driving their price into Howard Stern ranges before they opt for satellite distribution

Its all so simple isnt it?

Ajw

i do not at all agree with your premise. the rest of the world is out of step with New Order, and by the sounds of it you are as well.

AJ Wells wrote: If they made better music they would sell more records and wouldnt be in danger of being marginalized and ultimately trivilized on their way to being an "all-oldies" outfit doing Vegas shows without a record label

They should do the following;

Change their name as they should have when the lineup changed...

Refuse to play any old songs...

Dont play any dance music...

Drop the fat old studio musician (no, not hooky, the new guy) in favor of a younger fourth member who knows nothing of their history who can sing and play while Barney devotes himself to dancing fulltime...

Invent a new genre of music that is fresh, innovative and pushes things forward rather than backward...

Lose significant amounts of weight...

Just follow those easy steps and as yet unnamed new band will again revitalize rock music and popular culture and will have every record company in the world clamoring for them, driving their price into Howard Stern ranges before they opt for satellite distribution

Its all so simple isnt it?

Ajw

Oh AJ, you know no casino in Vegas would hire New Order, yet. They need another decade of divey performances before they qualify. :P

I'll give you this - a new, innovatively obvious direction in their music would be invigorating. I like the things like the soundtrack of the Saville Show, and the little nuances exuded in things like Morning Night and Day and Player in the League - as in, I'm diggging that sort of soulful bend to the bass/keys/drums department and think it could work really well going more forward with that. And I'm a sucker for this stuff like Turn and Run Wild - this acoustic deal could also be a decent leaning, as well.

But weight loss is insignificant, and I assume you're being facetious with that ( and a few other bits) because.. they aren't a boy band, they're not some young band that is gonna market to the teen crowd but they most certainly can retain the fans they have and market out into the good time crowd - i.e. clubby, intelligent listeners or partiers who get off on a good beat or track.

Really I say their best market IS with the rockin' clubby good time crowd. Keeping that sound fresh and breathtaking and with their own brand of bite and DIY would be the sort of thing that seems would catch on as being a popular thing.

AJ Wells wrote: If they made better music they would sell more records and wouldnt be in danger of being marginalized and ultimately trivilized on their way to being an "all-oldies" outfit doing Vegas shows without a record label

They should do the following;

Snip!

For the uninitiated, AJ Wells is a name that's cropped up on a variety of New Order boards and newsgroups over many years.

Recent times have seen him drop by for a few days, engage in a little trolling and then disappear. It's sometimes a little hard to discern whether he's just hamming it up for notoriety or whether he truly believes contemporary NO is as crap as he suggests. But his arguments always seem to contradict themselves in the end, at which point he scampers back off to the Sneaker Pimps boards.

It's usually quite entertaining.

:\pimp3:

Wells don't hold water!

ah i remember sometime ago AJ announced his exit in NOOL as if it was some kind of passionate speech, saying he had enough of you all lol, well what do we have here, he couldnt hold off, he's back!

About 7 months ago i told him to run along as his Mummy was calling him.Didn't see him again.

People like him ruin the atmosphere of a perfectly good board IMO. Can't he be banned or something?

his basic premise (as well as his mind in general) is just wrong. better music = more sales That's RIGHT, cos that spears whore is MUCH better than A Certain Ratio. And certainly, Black Lace show many times the talent of a bluffer like Frank Zappa.

melly wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: If they made better music they would sell more records and wouldnt be in danger of being marginalized and ultimately trivilized on their way to being an "all-oldies" outfit doing Vegas shows without a record label

They should do the following;

Change their name as they should have when the lineup changed...

Refuse to play any old songs...

Dont play any dance music...

Drop the fat old studio musician (no, not hooky, the new guy) in favor of a younger fourth member who knows nothing of their history who can sing and play while Barney devotes himself to dancing fulltime...

Invent a new genre of music that is fresh, innovative and pushes things forward rather than backward...

Lose significant amounts of weight...

Just follow those easy steps and as yet unnamed new band will again revitalize rock music and popular culture and will have every record company in the world clamoring for them, driving their price into Howard Stern ranges before they opt for satellite distribution

Its all so simple isnt it?

Ajw

Oh AJ, you know no casino in Vegas would hire New Order, yet. They need another decade of divey performances before they qualify. :P

I'll give you this - a new, innovatively obvious direction in their music would be invigorating. I like the things like the soundtrack of the Saville Show, and the little nuances exuded in things like Morning Night and Day and Player in the League - as in, I'm diggging that sort of soulful bend to the bass/keys/drums department and think it could work really well going more forward with that. And I'm a sucker for this stuff like Turn and Run Wild - this acoustic deal could also be a decent leaning, as well.

But weight loss is insignificant, and I assume you're being facetious with that ( and a few other bits) because.. they aren't a boy band, they're not some young band that is gonna market to the teen crowd but they most certainly can retain the fans they have and market out into the good time crowd - i.e. clubby, intelligent listeners or partiers who get off on a good beat or track.

Really I say their best market IS with the rockin' clubby good time crowd. Keeping that sound fresh and breathtaking and with their own brand of bite and DIY would be the sort of thing that seems would catch on as being a popular thing.

Actually the weight loss idea isnt for looks, its to make the music sound better... go back through their history and they always make better records when they are slim and sexy ;)

Seriously though kids... the only way this lot holds onto their reputation and their "market" is to forget what that market wants... since when do audiences know what they want? Its up to artists to tell the audience what they want, and the more forceful that statement the more lasting the reputation... the problem with this band as they age is that they demand nothing of themselves and cant get into situations which make them work harder to get past their natural laziness... that stasis is captured in sound and is apparent in their expanding waistlines and waning artistic powers... actually the utter vanishing of their former "godlike genius" makes the fact that it existed at all in the first place all the more magical... but makes us doubt that it ever happened at all...

Such is the stuff of legend...

Ajw

Steve Campbell wrote: his basic premise (as well as his mind in general) is just wrong. better music = more sales That's RIGHT, cos that spears whore is MUCH better than A Certain Ratio. And certainly, Black Lace show many times the talent of a bluffer like Frank Zappa.

As the Oracle Warren Buffet said, the market in the short run is a voting machine and in the long run, a weighing machine... Britney may sell more of her excrement in the short run, but check the long term sales of Closer or Technique versus Baby One More Time and its clear who weighs more... the problem with the recent NO releases is that they arent sucessful as pop records as they sell very poorly, they get very poor critical notices and they wind up in the cutout bin within weeks of release... next to a few devoted popfans blind loyalty that evidence is blinding...

Ajw

[orange]depthcharge[/orange] wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: If they made better music they would sell more records and wouldnt be in danger of being marginalized and ultimately trivilized on their way to being an "all-oldies" outfit doing Vegas shows without a record label

They should do the following;

Snip!

For the uninitiated, AJ Wells is a name that's cropped up on a variety of New Order boards and newsgroups over many years.

Recent times have seen him drop by for a few days, engage in a little trolling and then disappear. It's sometimes a little hard to discern whether he's just hamming it up for notoriety or whether he truly believes contemporary NO is as crap as he suggests. But his arguments always seem to contradict themselves in the end, at which point he scampers back off to the Sneaker Pimps boards.

It's usually quite entertaining.

:\pimp3:

The Sneaker Pimps have a board? I will have to check into that because they really went into the wastebasket in recent years ;)

Seriously though... it is gratifying to have so many people remember so many things about my silly little posts over the years... it makes me feel my time hasnt really been wasted on this earth... I have really made a little difference in peoples lives...

You like me... you really really really like me...

Ajw

AJ Wells wrote: the only way this lot holds onto their reputation and their "market" is to forget what that market wants... since when do audiences know what they want? (snip) ...actually the utter vanishing of their former "godlike genius" makes the fact that it existed at all in the first place all the more magical... but makes us doubt that it ever happened at all...Such is the stuff of legend...Ajw

You've got points there. :) I do agree that the majority of people who I consider to be the "popular market" would be after the 'catering to trend' thing I was joking about earlier with my post. They don't know what they want and are susceptible to whatever's purported to be good and not what is actually good. (Good may be subjective, but we'll stay on one page for now)

I got slagged off a lot for listening to JD/NO - too many people had made up their minds on them without ever hearing a a track besides BLT or LWTUA in a club on retro night. Agreeable songs in their own right, but they hadn't been listened to in a context that befit their individual beauty. I figured anyone willing to dismiss music based on clubland weren't people who'd have an idea of what beauty was if it smeared its stain on their face.

I have a quote on my website that reads "Myth is greater than Truth". New Order have been said to be encased in a shroud of myth, but no one mentions that the truth is laid out on the tracks for us to read. Live, demo or released; it seems to be where they are when they are and how they are. I can't ask for them to slip back into the slight frames of 20 years ago and become a tidal force that sweeps all of popdom off their feet, but I can ask that they are doing what they want, when they want, how they want and it makes them fall to their knees.

I try to imagine getting back together with a band after years apart, with different creative styles bouncing all around, and working into that groove that once happened so well. I don't know how long it'd take me. I just have to keep looking to the next release, to see what's next to come.

Maybe they are just afraid what I want to hear is the sort of thing they don't want anyone to hear.

melly wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: the only way this lot holds onto their reputation and their "market" is to forget what that market wants... since when do audiences know what they want? (snip) ...actually the utter vanishing of their former "godlike genius" makes the fact that it existed at all in the first place all the more magical... but makes us doubt that it ever happened at all...Such is the stuff of legend...Ajw

You've got points there. :) I do agree that the majority of people who I consider to be the "popular market" would be after the 'catering to trend' thing I was joking about earlier with my post. They don't know what they want and are susceptible to whatever's purported to be good and not what is actually good. (Good may be subjective, but we'll stay on one page for now)

I got slagged off a lot for listening to JD/NO - too many people had made up their minds on them without ever hearing a a track besides BLT or LWTUA in a club on retro night. Agreeable songs in their own right, but they hadn't been listened to in a context that befit their individual beauty. I figured anyone willing to dismiss music based on clubland weren't people who'd have an idea of what beauty was if it smeared its stain on their face.

I have a quote on my website that reads "Myth is greater than Truth". New Order have been said to be encased in a shroud of myth, but no one mentions that the truth is laid out on the tracks for us to read. Live, demo or released; it seems to be where they are when they are and how they are. I can't ask for them to slip back into the slight frames of 20 years ago and become a tidal force that sweeps all of popdom off their feet, but I can ask that they are doing what they want, when they want, how they want and it makes them fall to their knees.

I try to imagine getting back together with a band after years apart, with different creative styles bouncing all around, and working into that groove that once happened so well. I don't know how long it'd take me. I just have to keep looking to the next release, to see what's next to come.

Maybe they are just afraid what I want to hear is the sort of thing they don't want anyone to hear.

My goodness, how did a thinking, discriminating listener stumble onto these pages? Usually I get the mindless rejection of anything contrary and a blind support of any noise this band makes... how refreshing... I think its great that younger listeners can approach this music as a whole rather than just picking bits and pieces of it... the trouble is that so much of this music got its power from what was happening at the time, and thats impossible to feel now... just as I can never fully understand the context of Dylan or the Velvets, hearing these records for the first time today must be a perplexing experience... I know that for me, many of the bands tracks that seemed so fresh and innovative at the time just sound hilariously bad now, so its hard to reconstruct that experience as it happened... but thats certainly the challenging and fun thing to do as a listener...

And I continue to wait in hope as well... figuring that the chemistry that allowed four average people to produce wonderment may return... the next time I hit play...

Ajw

AJ Wells wrote "trouble is that so much of this music got its power from what was happening at the time, and thats impossible to feel now... just as I can never fully understand the context of Dylan or the Velvets, hearing these records for the first time today must be a perplexing experience... "

I agree with you there.I tried the Velvets when i was about 18 but couldn't get into them in a big way.Concluded you just had to have been there at the time.I would probably feel the same about New order if i was 18 now

I think the case with the Velvets is that the bands they inspired were much better than the Velvets themselves.

From my experience of getting into JD/NO two years ago, I found it far more exciting to be getting into an old band, rather than a new band. Simply because every week, when I got my wages, I could go down to HMV, or somewhere like that, and buy a NO/JD album every week.

Plus, at the time, I didn't touch 'dance' music at all. I remember the conflict I was having over liking them. Eventually, I realised I was being narrow minded and opened up.

I also associate NO/JD with turning 18, passing my A Levels and getting into University, and helping me through my first year at uni.

They speak to me in a way that a lot of new bands can't.

AJ Wells wrote: ... the problem with the recent NO releases is that they arent sucessful as pop records as they sell very poorly, they get very poor critical notices and they wind up in the cutout bin within weeks of release... next to a few devoted popfans blind loyalty that evidence is blinding... Ajw

Oh AJ you sneaky little troll.

Such sweeping statements when your tail's up!

"Very poor critical notices" is just plain incorrect. There was a fairly comprehensive record of all the reviews of WFTSC here at the time of release and nearly all fell in the 60-75% bracket. Hardly "very poor". You're one of the only ones who'd describe their last two albums as "very poor". Even Pitchfork, that haven of music review elitism, awarded Sirens a 79%.

There's quite a discerning bracket of NO's fanbase within these forums who don't come close to representing the blind fandom you suggest. Many of us are under no illusions that the band's heyday isn't many moons' past and that their genius had a lot to do with contexts of time and place. Armed with this acceptance, we still choose to follow their career, support their cause and if it doesn't reproduce the spellbinding brilliance of the past, well, we're cool with that.

There are precious few acts who can maintain the power and edge of their early output into the latter stages of their careers and there are plenty who are infinitely more embarassing than NO.

Having someone waltz in every few months and bludgeon us with the same old tired rhetoric, well, you can understand why you earn the reception you do.

:\pimp3:

[orange]depthcharge[/orange] wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: ... the problem with the recent NO releases is that they arent sucessful as pop records as they sell very poorly, they get very poor critical notices and they wind up in the cutout bin within weeks of release... next to a few devoted popfans blind loyalty that evidence is blinding... Ajw

Oh AJ you sneaky little troll.

Such sweeping statements when your tail's up!

"Very poor critical notices" is just plain incorrect. There was a fairly comprehensive record of all the reviews of WFTSC here at the time of release and nearly all fell in the 60-75% bracket. Hardly "very poor". You're one of the only ones who'd describe their last two albums as "very poor". Even Pitchfork, that haven of music review elitism, awarded Sirens a 79%.

There's quite a discerning bracket of NO's fanbase within these forums who don't come close to representing the blind fandom you suggest. Many of us are under no illusions that the band's heyday isn't many moons' past and that their genius had a lot to do with contexts of time and place. Armed with this acceptance, we still choose to follow their career, support their cause and if it doesn't reproduce the spellbinding brilliance of the past, well, we're cool with that.

There are precious few acts who can maintain the power and edge of their early output into the latter stages of their careers and there are plenty who are infinitely more embarassing than NO.

Having someone waltz in every few months and bludgeon us with the same old tired rhetoric, well, you can understand why you earn the reception you do.

:\pimp3:

Actually there was more than one critical savaging of Siren, and if I get enough free time one of these days I will dig them up and get a percentage for you... but the major point of this thread is that this record didnt sell upon release and wont sell in the future as the JD and proper NO records do... case in point, browsing in Amoeba records today I noted not one single used Joy Division record available... and no used copies of PCL, Technique or even Republic in the bin... but there were over 30 copies of Get Ready and Siren and the accompanying singles... and they werent promos... those are mostly fans who bought the record and were less than pleased with it... I asked the guy who was stocking the bins and he made a gesture like he was holding his nose when pointing at the records... he said that used copies of JD and early NO records sell the day they come in... but that Siren and Get Ready just kept piling up...

Thats not me, kids... thats the deafening sound of a band destroying its own reputation...

Cheers!

Ajw

[orange]depthcharge[/orange] wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: ... the problem with the recent NO releases is that they arent sucessful as pop records as they sell very poorly, they get very poor critical notices and they wind up in the cutout bin within weeks of release... next to a few devoted popfans blind loyalty that evidence is blinding... Ajw

Oh AJ you sneaky little troll.

Such sweeping statements when your tail's up!

"Very poor critical notices" is just plain incorrect. There was a fairly comprehensive record of all the reviews of WFTSC here at the time of release and nearly all fell in the 60-75% bracket. Hardly "very poor". You're one of the only ones who'd describe their last two albums as "very poor". Even Pitchfork, that haven of music review elitism, awarded Sirens a 79%.

There's quite a discerning bracket of NO's fanbase within these forums who don't come close to representing the blind fandom you suggest. Many of us are under no illusions that the band's heyday isn't many moons' past and that their genius had a lot to do with contexts of time and place. Armed with this acceptance, we still choose to follow their career, support their cause and if it doesn't reproduce the spellbinding brilliance of the past, well, we're cool with that.

There are precious few acts who can maintain the power and edge of their early output into the latter stages of their careers and there are plenty who are infinitely more embarassing than NO.

Having someone waltz in every few months and bludgeon us with the same old tired rhetoric, well, you can understand why you earn the reception you do.

:\pimp3:

Oh and there are plenty of bands who are past their 50s who continue to innovate and continue their creativity... The Flaming Lips get even more awe inspiring and powerful... Yo La Tengo gets more subtle... Sonic Youth gets more experimental... even the gawdaful Rolling Stones put out a record that is more true to what they made their creative reputation on than Siren... talk about an inversion of the yield curve!

Ajw

Christopher Owens wrote: I think the case with the Velvets is that the bands they inspired were much better than the Velvets themselves.

From my experience of getting into JD/NO two years ago, I found it far more exciting to be getting into an old band, rather than a new band. Simply because every week, when I got my wages, I could go down to HMV, or somewhere like that, and buy a NO/JD album every week.

Plus, at the time, I didn't touch 'dance' music at all. I remember the conflict I was having over liking them. Eventually, I realised I was being narrow minded and opened up.

I also associate NO/JD with turning 18, passing my A Levels and getting into University, and helping me through my first year at uni.

They speak to me in a way that a lot of new bands can't.

Thats very interesting and illuminating and makes sense... you can create a version of the history of the time in your imagination and create your own context... it might be totally different than the actual context, but why not?

Ajw

AJ Wells wrote:

Christopher Owens wrote: I think the case with the Velvets is that the bands they inspired were much better than the Velvets themselves.

From my experience of getting into JD/NO two years ago, I found it far more exciting to be getting into an old band, rather than a new band. Simply because every week, when I got my wages, I could go down to HMV, or somewhere like that, and buy a NO/JD album every week.

Plus, at the time, I didn't touch 'dance' music at all. I remember the conflict I was having over liking them. Eventually, I realised I was being narrow minded and opened up.

I also associate NO/JD with turning 18, passing my A Levels and getting into University, and helping me through my first year at uni.

They speak to me in a way that a lot of new bands can't.

Thats very interesting and illuminating and makes sense... you can create a version of the history of the time in your imagination and create your own context... it might be totally different than the actual context, but why not?

Ajw

the actual context is what each and everyone of us makes it. hence it is different for all of us, as we experience things differently. thus most of us here love the Order as they are.

this AJ Wells character is one miserable fooker

get back to the BSP forum yer cheeky monkey

AJ Wells wrote: Actually there was more than one critical savaging of Siren, and if I get enough free time one of these days I will dig them up and get a percentage for you... but the major point of this thread is that this record didnt sell upon release and wont sell in the future as the JD and proper NO records do... case in point, browsing in Amoeba records today I noted not one single used Joy Division record available... and no used copies of PCL, Technique or even Republic in the bin... but there were over 30 copies of Get Ready and Siren and the accompanying singles... and they werent promos... those are mostly fans who bought the record and were less than pleased with it... I asked the guy who was stocking the bins and he made a gesture like he was holding his nose when pointing at the records... he said that used copies of JD and early NO records sell the day they come in... but that Siren and Get Ready just kept piling up...

Thats not me, kids... thats the deafening sound of a band destroying its own reputation...

"More than one critical savaging." Wow AJ, find another and you might even call it a trend! I'm afraid the logic is dropping out of your arguments by the post. You keep implying that NO's last two albums have been critical disasters and yet, voila:

24 Major Reviews of Get Ready - 71%

24 Major Reviews of Sirens - 61%

Not quite the critical darlings of Low Life or Technique, but a mile off the savaging you continue to dish out. And we can produce another 50 or so in the archives here. So let's agree that when you refer to their recent output as "reputation destroyers", it's your own opinion and one not supported by the majority of music critics.

Your little Amoeba Records anecdote is amusing but in the end it's just that - anecdotal. It means nothing. I can offer you a personal observation of how Closer, Unknown Pleasures and Substance are all available new at Dirt Cheap Records in Australia for about US$5 each and the pile is about the same size every week I go in there.

As for commercial sales, it doesn't overly concern us that Warners may have overestimated the market for GR and WFTSC. Most of us prefer them to remain our little secret, rather than seeing them collecting lame 'Dance Act' Grammys or duetting with the diva du jour. You're contrasting major label sales to those of a independent label in their heyday and the sales figures are incomparable. It's easier to sell out when there are fewer copies produced.

As for bands who mature and progress the longer their career extends, of course there will always be a few to buck the trend. But the trend is for output to diminish in quality over an extended timeframe. NO are hardly alone here. Then you quote the flippin' Rolling Stones? You jest here, surely. How many absolute duff albums have they put out in the past 20 years? Surely they were due to stumble across a half decent one eventually. Even then, it sits on the same score as GR at Metacritic!

My theory is that AJ Wells does the rounds of forums for all his former fave artists who no longer meet his lofty requirements. He'll stick around here for another week, then slip off to the Sneaker Pimps again to spread some cheer, then perhaps he'll start circling Radiohead.com in the hope that he can swoop when/if they finally land a dud. He revels in it!

:\pimp3: