The Bunnymen Vs The Order!

Okay, and now for something which might not have been done before.

I'm sure there has been raging debate here about which band are better - the Bunnymen or JD / NO. Being an unbiased Bunnymen nutter myself, I obviously harbour far greater affection for Mac the Mouth and his classic 80s meisterworks over the admittedly patchier NO albums (except Technique of course) during the same decade.

So I thought I'd start off a more challenging poll.

Here we have each band's respective first five studio albums (also their sole output for their first record companies interestingly enough - bar the singles compilations Songs To Learn & Sing and Substance, not listed here), but which pairing constitutes the strongest couplet in your opinion? What makes this so much trickier for everyone is that their respective critical / commercial / artistic peaks (Ocean Rain and Technique) comprise one half of a pairing - numerically speaking - with opposites which are usually regarded as the weakest in the band's canon.....

So, taking that into consideration, which set of albums would you vote for?

Is this being deliberately difficult of me? Tell me if I'm being a bastard for subjecting everyone to this!!! :)

If I understand this poll correctly, we're voting for which pair is the most difficult to size up. So for me, Porcupine appears to be an underrated LP where as Low-Life seems a bit overrated, and both have great songs bookending a few duds.

Overall I prefer NO-their peaks beat out Echo, even though I adore Heaven Up Here and Ocean Rain.

The s/t Echo album sounds a bit like a NO rip off, to be honest.

Well, I voted for the one with Technique. I've only heard The Killing Moon from the Bunnymen while watching Donnie Darko. I'm pretty sure a self-titled album is a strong one, like most others.

Heaven Up Here, Crocodiles and Ocean Rain are the only Bunnymen albums I've got. Crocodiles vs Movement is quite hard (Bunnymen probably shade it), New Order wins with PCL and the Bunnymen with Ocean Rain. Then again, I've listened all my New Order albums to death whereas the Bunnymen (Ocean Rain aside) are still fresh to me.

[magenta]shedmonite61[/magenta] wrote: Well, I voted for the one with Technique. I've only heard The Killing Moon from the Bunnymen while watching Donnie Darko. I'm pretty sure a self-titled album is a strong one, like most others.

Provide evidence that s/t are strong in general...How does this make sense?

These may well have been first album and first album, second and second etc, but the year of production comparisons don't work out.

You'd almost have to do it Crocodiles and Closer, Heaven Up Here and Movement, Porcupine and PCL, Ocean Rain and Low Life, EATB and Brotherhood. It had all gone tits up for the Bunnymen by the time Technique was recorded and released.

Ocean Rain shows their greatest maturity on record for me, but I can't honestly see a time when both bands were knocking out consistently superb stuff at the same time.

Great idea for a thread if I truly understand . The idea is you have to vote for the best pair, yes? If so, I think it doesn't matter if the years match up as long as they're in order, which they are.

I voted for Movement/Croc - NO's most innovative and groundbreaking record matched up with probably my 3rd fave EATB recd. I don't think EATB are by any means up there with New Order as a great band, but I do enjoy them. It's heard to resist Crocodiles meld of American garage/punk/psych (Television/Doors/VU) and the skinny headlong rush of its delivery. I'd probably rate HUH as their best album though - a bit darker for an ex-overcoat wearer like me.

There's a nice contract between the archetypal Liverpool V Manc delivery here, something that Paul Morley alluded to in his OMM piece. Mac obviously thinks they're superstars from the first note, whereas in Movement era New Order everyone was shuffling around not wanting to be the front man until BArney was shoved forward. Also it's interesting that the Factory bunch let others shape the image (Saville, Wilson, Hannett maybe)uttering only the vaguest of manifestos while Mac just tells it straight. MAc is in love with himself, the band and the idea of being a rockstar, while NO are just....glum. All great stuff.

As I say, EATB are not one of my absolute faves...a bit too derivative for that, but they've never turned in a bad recd (apart from the MAc-less one!). Their greatest material is uplifting and thrilling (Back Of Love, Killing Moon, A Promise), but my absolute favourite work of theirs is that set of covers that's tucked away on CD4 of the box set (Action Woman, She Cracked, Friction etc). Maybe we should do a battle of the box sets. I reckon Crystal Days might win.

Tossup between Ocean Rain vs Brotherhood and Echo & The Bunnymen vs Technique for me but I'll go with the latter due mainly to Technique. Interesting format, by the way.

Some great replies - cheers everyone so far. I kind of twigged this would be quite a tricky sort of disscussion in a way due to the fact that the pairings would be unevenly weighed.

Old Monkey suggested an interesting variation though - taking the YEAR into account rather than just the chronology - and also including JD's albums.

However, even I had a tough job racking my brain and coming to a decision: Porcupine is a pretty intense album - and the cover art kind of sums up its contents - rather epic and icy overall (Way Out And Up We Go is one of the best non-album b-sides I've ever heard - it sounds massive!) but it's a huge leap for the band production-wise and a great record. But then when I took Low-Life into consideration I felt that there were a couple of weak tracks on that album (especially on side two), so it sort of came down to the HUH and PCL pairing for me - both of which are actually very strong, transitional, records where in Bunnymen's case they had started to find their niche for crafting dramatic mini-epics and in New Order's case where they made their first inroads into fusing rock and technology into a much more satisfying whole (which was only hinted at on Movement, understandably).

Of course the big difference here is in the vocalists - Mac had already found his voice by the second album whilst Barney was only just beginning to find his (and wouldn't arrive there until Low-Life).....and yeah - people were right when they accused Ian of having a big gob!! Mind you, that gig in 1987 when Bunnymen and New Order played on the same bill was my fave double header EVER - for obvious reasons. For a 15 year old Morecambe kid at the time it was like a religious awakening!!

:)

I saw them together in 1984 at the Indoor Festival in Liege - EATB headlined. IIRC they encored together, but I can't remember whose set it was after, or what they did!

Here's an interesting thing - Steve Morris played on some EATB tracks according to the sleevenotes of the Crystal Days box. On Lover I Love You/Satisfaction/New Direction from the aborted pre-self-title album sessions it says 'Steve Morris or David Palmer'. I just had a listen and any/all of them could be Steve. Apparently he also played on the album version of All In Your Mind - but listening to this one is a bit more inconclusive. It certainly could be him, but it sounds more like Pete De Freitas. There's also a bit much ride cymbal for our Steve.

Steve Morris or David Palmer?? That's intriguing! Funny how I never even gave that little bit of text a second glance (and I have the bloomin box set too!).

Perhaps it was a namesake? I dunno. As for David Palmer - he might be the very same one that used to drum for ABC and ended up playing with Matt Johnson's The The backing band - along with Johnny Marr. But then David Palmer predated Marr in The The by a few years as he also played drums on their "Infected" album.

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: Steve Morris or David Palmer?? That's intriguing! Funny how I never even gave that little bit of text a second glance (and I have the bloomin box set too!).

Perhaps it was a namesake? I dunno. As for David Palmer - he might be the very same one that used to drum for ABC and ended up playing with Matt Johnson's The The backing band - along with Johnny Marr. But then David Palmer predated Marr in The The by a few years as he also played drums on their "Infected" album.

Yes, it's definitely *that* David Palmer, who also played on the Electronic LP. He's got a totally different style to Steve, more syncopated with more complex hi-hat work and a more 'sessiony' feel. But as I say, it sounds more like Steve apart from All In My Mind, which could be DP.

Well, Crocodiles is my fav EATB album and Power Corruption & Lies my NO fav one, so not easy to choose a pair.

BTW two of my favourites 2005 releases are Siberia (EATB) and WFTSC (NO)

DC wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: Steve Morris or David Palmer?? That's intriguing! Funny how I never even gave that little bit of text a second glance (and I have the bloomin box set too!).

Perhaps it was a namesake? I dunno. As for David Palmer - he might be the very same one that used to drum for ABC and ended up playing with Matt Johnson's The The backing band - along with Johnny Marr. But then David Palmer predated Marr in The The by a few years as he also played drums on their "Infected" album.

Yes, it's definitely *that* David Palmer, who also played on the Electronic LP. He's got a totally different style to Steve, more syncopated with more complex hi-hat work and a more 'sessiony' feel. But as I say, it sounds more like Steve apart from All In My Mind, which could be DP.

Cool. I'll have to give those tracks another listen later on at some point!

maba wrote: Well, Crocodiles is my fav EATB album and Power Corruption & Lies my NO fav one, so not easy to choose a pair.

BTW two of my favourites 2005 releases are Siberia (EATB) and WFTSC (NO)

Siberia is actually quite good come to think of it. I was so disappointed with Flowers though - that was like a half-hearted attempt at trying to reform Electrafixion

Come to think of it - what exactly was the point of Electrafixion anyway seeing as the Bunnymen are now also just Will and Mac +2 ??

i prefer evergreen.

baseball bill is a classic.

DC wrote: I saw them together in 1984 at the Indoor Festival in Liege - EATB headlined. IIRC they encored together, but I can't remember whose set it was after, or what they did!

Sister Ray, at the end of the Order's set.

They also shared an encore several times on the joint headline US 87 tour, the highlight being Darien Lakes in Buffalo, NY, when Barneyjoined the Bunnymen on stage for Run Run Run (where he proceeded to sing that Bob Dylan was a poet but he didn't know it!) and Mac joined the Order on stage for Do The Ostrich (though he didn't sing!)

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: Siberia is actually quite good come to think of it. I was so disappointed with Flowers though - that was like a half-hearted attempt at trying to reform Electrafixion

Come to think of it - what exactly was the point of Electrafixion anyway seeing as the Bunnymen are now also just Will and Mac +2 ??

Naked girls on the covers!

maba wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: Siberia is actually quite good come to think of it. I was so disappointed with Flowers though - that was like a half-hearted attempt at trying to reform Electrafixion

Come to think of it - what exactly was the point of Electrafixion anyway seeing as the Bunnymen are now also just Will and Mac +2 ??

Naked girls on the covers!

^^

yeah!

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

maba wrote: Well, Crocodiles is my fav EATB album and Power Corruption & Lies my NO fav one, so not easy to choose a pair.

BTW two of my favourites 2005 releases are Siberia (EATB) and WFTSC (NO)

Siberia is actually quite good come to think of it. I was so disappointed with Flowers though - that was like a half-hearted attempt at trying to reform Electrafixion

Come to think of it - what exactly was the point of Electrafixion anyway seeing as the Bunnymen are now also just Will and Mac +2 ??

I really like Flowers - feels like they were just set up in a room and playing the songs rather than making big proclaimations. Some very good material on there - the title track, It's Alright, King Of Kings - and a nice shimmering, light-psych vibe at times. Haven't heard Siberia.

DC wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

maba wrote: Well, Crocodiles is my fav EATB album and Power Corruption & Lies my NO fav one, so not easy to choose a pair.

BTW two of my favourites 2005 releases are Siberia (EATB) and WFTSC (NO)

Siberia is actually quite good come to think of it. I was so disappointed with Flowers though - that was like a half-hearted attempt at trying to reform Electrafixion

Come to think of it - what exactly was the point of Electrafixion anyway seeing as the Bunnymen are now also just Will and Mac +2 ??

I really like Flowers - feels like they were just set up in a room and playing the songs rather than making big proclaimations. Some very good material on there - the title track, It's Alright, King Of Kings - and a nice shimmering, light-psych vibe at times. Haven't heard Siberia.

Yeah - in away you have a point. Electrafixion was really Will's psychedelic thingy more than Mac's baby to some degree, which is why I felt that a couple of the songs on Flowers were too close to that same psyche-y vibe that their other band leant more towards. Siberia is kind of like them getting back to their more melodic moody best as last heard to such good effect on Evergreen I suppose.

oldmonkey wrote:

DC wrote: I saw them together in 1984 at the Indoor Festival in Liege - EATB headlined. IIRC they encored together, but I can't remember whose set it was after, or what they did!

Sister Ray, at the end of the Order's set.

They also shared an encore several times on the joint headline US 87 tour, the highlight being Darien Lakes in Buffalo, NY, when Barneyjoined the Bunnymen on stage for Run Run Run (where he proceeded to sing that Bob Dylan was a poet but he didn't know it!) and Mac joined the Order on stage for Do The Ostrich (though he didn't sing!)

Thanks, Tim. Funny gig that - I was inter-railing and saw a poster in Cologne station on a Saturday night advertising the gig the next day. We got a train to Amsterdam IIRC, then onto Brussels and Liege. I got food poisoning from some dodgy chips, so really felt like spending about 8 hours in an aircraft hanger with a few hundred gloomy kids with overcoats and army rucksacks. It minged in there! New Order were fairly crap, I think. I remember 'synth trouble', but that could have been any one of dozens of gigs around then. I wonder if there's a bootleg?

I think, these aren't the right pairs.

I would set Crocodiles vs Closer 1980 Heaven Up Here vs Movement 1981 Porcupine vs Power Corruption & Lies 1983 Ocean Rain vs Low-Life 1984/85 Grey Album vs Brotherhood 1986/87

oldmonkey wrote:

DC wrote: I saw them together in 1984 at the Indoor Festival in Liege - EATB headlined. IIRC they encored together, but I can't remember whose set it was after, or what they did!

Sister Ray, at the end of the Order's set.

They also shared an encore several times on the joint headline US 87 tour, the highlight being Darien Lakes in Buffalo, NY, when Barneyjoined the Bunnymen on stage for Run Run Run (where he proceeded to sing that Bob Dylan was a poet but he didn't know it!) and Mac joined the Order on stage for Do The Ostrich (though he didn't sing!)

Damn! That's only an hour drive away from me! Too bad I was only an 18 year old punk who'd never heard of New Order or Echo at the time!

DC wrote: I saw them together in 1984 at the Indoor Festival in Liege - EATB headlined. IIRC they encored together, but I can't remember whose set it was after, or what they did!

I was there, too. Cool Festival with Fad Gadget and Shriekback playing before them.

Good to see that my own chosen coupling is still leading the pack by some margin!

One Brain wrote: ..... but I don't like "Heaven Up Here" that much.

Wow, I think that's the first thing you've ever posted that I've disagreed with.... that album still sounds great today, IMHO[/] ;)

crocodiles is better than movement.

i'm going to my first bunnymen gig next month. it's a bit belated, but i can't wait!

Hmmmm...

Belated is an understatement!

MSN please darling :) Just got in from Oxford.

DC wrote:

Thanks, Tim. Funny gig that - I was inter-railing and saw a poster in Cologne station on a Saturday night advertising the gig the next day. We got a train to Amsterdam IIRC, then onto Brussels and Liege. I got food poisoning from some dodgy chips, so really felt like spending about 8 hours in an aircraft hanger with a few hundred gloomy kids with overcoats and army rucksacks. It minged in there! New Order were fairly crap, I think. I remember 'synth trouble', but that could have been any one of dozens of gigs around then. I wonder if there's a bootleg?

A crap one, yes. Not really worth it. The night before was better, the Seaside Festival in De Panne, on the Belgian coast.

AgentWood wrote: crocodiles is better than movement.

i'm going to my first bunnymen gig next month. it's a bit belated, but i can't wait!

Lucky you! they are in really good form, you won't regret . I saw them 3 times since Siberia Release and every gig was better than the previous one

Nothing will ever touch those autumn 1984 gigs for quality performances though. Night after night they were simply magnificent, tight set of great songs. At the time the finest live band around for me.

oldmonkey wrote: Nothing will ever touch those autumn 1984 gigs for quality performances though. Night after night they were simply magnificent, tight set of great songs. At the time the finest live band around for me.

They still got it! Believe me, and new songs are ace live! Scissors in the Sand and Of a Life are highlights. I need a bunnymen concert now

maba wrote:

oldmonkey wrote: Nothing will ever touch those autumn 1984 gigs for quality performances though. Night after night they were simply magnificent, tight set of great songs. At the time the finest live band around for me.

They still got it! Believe me, and new songs are ace live! Scissors in the Sand and Of a Life are highlights. I need a bunnymen concert now

I think Old Monkey's talking about New Order!

DC wrote:

maba wrote:

oldmonkey wrote: Nothing will ever touch those autumn 1984 gigs for quality performances though. Night after night they were simply magnificent, tight set of great songs. At the time the finest live band around for me.

They still got it! Believe me, and new songs are ace live! Scissors in the Sand and Of a Life are highlights. I need a bunnymen concert now

I think Old Monkey's talking about New Order!

No I wasn't, for once! The Bunnymen were awesome in 84, their best year for me.

i was really into bunnymen during their first 3 albums,but new order is a life time thing

maba wrote:

oldmonkey wrote: Nothing will ever touch those autumn 1984 gigs for quality performances though. Night after night they were simply magnificent, tight set of great songs. At the time the finest live band around for me.

They still got it! Believe me, and new songs are ace live! Scissors in the Sand and Of a Life are highlights. I need a bunnymen concert now

Sorry -but they aint got it, much like New Order but we still go for nostalgia. Im off to Newcastle on Tuesday to see Bunnymen. Mind you they were quite good in Leeds last Autumn. The difference is Mac & Will are trying to pull some 'proper' classics out the hat where NOrder carnt be arsed

It's sobering to think that when the Bunnymen first broke big in 1983 they were sharing the top ten with U2 whom they were being compared to at the time.... thank god they didn't go the same way as Bono's lot. Imagine what they could have become!

I also find it amusing that McCulloch still talks of that time (being lumped in with U2 and pioneering that big windswept dramatic rock sound) with barely concealed embarrassment: but then again he too sported a dodgy 80s mullet as well as Bono so he can talk!!!

oldmonkey wrote: Nothing will ever touch those autumn 1984 gigs for quality performances though. Night after night they were simply magnificent, tight set of great songs. At the time the finest live band around for me.

that might have been the tour when i managed to get on the stage at blackburn. one of my top 5 all time gigs by any band.they were really fantastic,mac was putting on the drunk act as usual or maybe was he actually drunk o happy days :)

confusion wrote: I think, these aren't the right pairs.

I would set Crocodiles vs Closer 1980 Heaven Up Here vs Movement 1981 Porcupine vs Power Corruption & Lies 1983 Ocean Rain vs Low-Life 1984/85 Grey Album vs Brotherhood 1986/87

+1

i think you just can't compare the two i went on the big day out round Lpool when was that ?/ long time ago. bunnymen great on their day mc culloch possible genius ..but we never rate new order by their albums every album one has 1 2 3 shit ones on there ..but theres always something that always makes NO shine above the rest .. if you want to try comparisons Depeche v New order

Anyway Siberia is far better than WFTSC... Seems that, by the 2000's, the Bunnymen are still playing in the first league while the Order in the second...

matt jones wrote:

if you want to try comparisons Depeche v New order

Whoa!!!! Hold it right there - for your own safety as well as mine...!

You'd better not get them started on THAT old chestnut again - I think you need to be told of the INTENSE emotions that arise on this forum the moment those two band names are even mentioned in the same breath - and I haven't even brought in the third part of that ill-matched equation yet, The Cu....whoops!

oldmonkey wrote:

DC wrote:

Thanks, Tim. Funny gig that - I was inter-railing and saw a poster in Cologne station on a Saturday night advertising the gig the next day. We got a train to Amsterdam IIRC, then onto Brussels and Liege. I got food poisoning from some dodgy chips, so really felt like spending about 8 hours in an aircraft hanger with a few hundred gloomy kids with overcoats and army rucksacks. It minged in there! New Order were fairly crap, I think. I remember 'synth trouble', but that could have been any one of dozens of gigs around then. I wonder if there's a bootleg?

A crap one, yes. Not really worth it. The night before was better, the Seaside Festival in De Panne, on the Belgian coast.

New Order played more songs at the inside festival, but there were some technical problems at the beginnig of TPK.

Jiphy wrote: Anyway Siberia is far better than WFTSC... Seems that, by the 2000's, the Bunnymen are still playing in the first league while the Order in the second...

Why to be ironic? I think it's great that a good band such as EATB is playing no matter which league. I love their music and they are amazing live, also the chance of seeing them in not-so-big-venues and with less than 20 pounds tickets.

Well, 4 hours & im off for umpteenth' Bunnymen gig @ toon'

oldmonkey wrote: Nothing will ever touch those autumn 1984 gigs for quality performances though. Night after night they were simply magnificent, tight set of great songs. At the time the finest live band around for me.

as i was nine, i think my parents wouldn't have let me go (if i knew who they were, which i doubt). ;)

maba wrote: no matter which league. I love their music and they are amazing live, also the chance of seeing them in not-so-big-venues and with less than 20 pounds tickets.

I totally agree with you + I find the price of tickets awfully expensive, I often wonder if they are joking... In example, New Order demands more than REM to play a concert in France !!! It is not that I like REM, but if I have a concert hall to fill... guess what would be my choice...

About the league... It was just a way to say that Siberia has something than WFTSC has not. I say it frankly. If New Order were to play songs from the last two albums only, better stay home !!!

• if they could change their live sets a bit, maybe I would go out to see them...

I wonder if Ian Mac whoops and yells in an embarassing fashion all over his sacred Bunnymen tunes like Bernard does with the New Order back catalogue these days?

I'll bet he doesn't either. :p

I'm not familiar with the Bunnymen really, dabbled with a bit of Mac's solo stuff in the early 90s. But I got a promo of Siberia and I hate to say that I think it's better than WFTSC. More soul or something. There's two tracks I've been thrashing "All Because of You Days" and "Everything Kill You". Quite suprised they picked Scissors in the Sand as a single tho. Good thread by the way

captain obvious wrote: I'm not familiar with the Bunnymen really, dabbled with a bit of Mac's solo stuff in the early 90s. But I got a promo of Siberia and I hate to say that I think it's better than WFTSC. More soul or something. There's two tracks I've been thrashing "All Because of You Days" and "Everything Kill You". Quite suprised they picked Scissors in the Sand as a single tho. Good thread by the way

2005 was a good year, also Weddoes "Take Fountain" was better than I expected, good album, btw.

Siberia's wicked point must be "What if we are?", but the other 10 songs are great. First single was "Stormy Weather" not my favourite but quite good for introduce them to the audience :) ... then "In the Margins" was strange as single IMO, as I was hoping "Of a Life" or "All Because of You Days" to be released as single. "Scissors in the Sand" is amazing live.

I like WFTSC, there are just 2 songs I skip "I Told You So" and "Working Overtime", then I like some more and others not much, but that happens with near all my favourite bands albums.

It's certainly a tough call on the whole but I do find a distinct difference between the recent Bunnymen album "Siberia" and the last NO one "WFTSC" in that the Bunnymen one still has the undeniable moodiness element with which I always think is entirely down to Ian's way of singing, if not Will's arrangements..... this makes it a far more rewarding record to listen to in many ways.... I can't explain it any other way but that's the impression I get.

Whereas the NO album is just pleasant in a forgettable but increasingly one-dimensional way - it's quite a bland record really - and I do get the distinct impression that Barney and co have long exhausted what made them so compulsive and essential in the early days and are now just going through the motions. It's another reason why I haven't bothered seeing them live since about six years ago or something.

do the bunnymen still play a lot of their early stuff these days ? i.e. first 4 albums

bansheeman wrote: do the bunnymen still play a lot of their early stuff these days ? i.e. first 4 albums

:D

maba wrote:

bansheeman wrote: do the bunnymen still play a lot of their early stuff these days ? i.e. first 4 albums

:D

thanks for that plenty in that list for me,will pay them a visit. edit - just heard that they might be playing v festival and i am there this year

I saw them support New Order at Move 2002, i thought they were brilliant.:)

maba wrote:

bansheeman wrote: do the bunnymen still play a lot of their early stuff these days ? i.e. first 4 albums

:D

You jammy sod! :\ohwell:

Is anyone tomorrow at the Koko in London?

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: You jammy sod! :\ohwell:

:wink3::wink3::wink3: There's also a tour diary made by manager and bunnymen.com webmaster with sound checks videos and other stuff :computer3: http://bunnymen.typepad.com/peasypetertourdiary

maba wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: You jammy sod! :\ohwell:

:wink3::wink3::wink3: There's also a tour diary made by manager and bunnymen.com webmaster with sound checks videos and other stuff :computer3: http://bunnymen.typepad.com/peasypetertourdiary

Oh good! Sometimes even I can be completely oblivious to just how much gubbins there really is on the web about the Bunnymen and related stuff! :D