Legal issues with digital versions of WFTSC 7"ers

Good afternoon,

Three points for discussion,

1. As a dutiful JD/NO fan since 1979, I bought the 7" singles of WFTSC (and sent off for the nice 3X7" wraparound folder from Warners, which they'll have evidence of somewhere), but all my music is stored digitally, and I haven't the technology to convert the vinyl.

What are peoples' views on downloading converted versions from a P2P site, on the basis that I've bought the vinyl, so I'm entitled to listen to the music (I'd buy it if I could find it!)

2. Does anyone know if Turn is EVER coming out?

3. Does anyone know a good place to obtain all those nice mixes of "Guilt..." that are listed on the discography? I assume that this was a US only release?

Thanks for your time

Peter Rooney wrote: Good afternoon,

Three points for discussion,

1. As a dutiful JD/NO fan since 1979, I bought the 7" singles of WFTSC (and sent off for the nice 3X7" wraparound folder from Warners, which they'll have evidence of somewhere), but all my music is stored digitally, and I haven't the technology to convert the vinyl.

What are peoples' views on downloading converted versions from a P2P site, on the basis that I've bought the vinyl, so I'm entitled to listen to the music (I'd buy it if I could find it!)

Personally, if you've bought it in one format, then I can see no problem in downloading converted versions from P2P networks, especially since you cannot download (legally) digital versions of them, and CD versions of the tracks are only available as very expensive promo CDR's/CD's (via ebay, or somewhere similar). The record companies take a different view, however, and expect you to purchase different formats seperately - currently in the UK, it's illegal to convert from CD to MP3 and upload to your MP3 player (WTF)?

Peter Rooney wrote: 2. Does anyone know if Turn is EVER coming out?

I very much doubt it, it's been too long since WFTSC came out. Stranger things have happened, though! :)

Peter Rooney wrote: 3. Does anyone know a good place to obtain all those nice mixes of "Guilt..." that are listed on the discography? I assume that this was a US only release?

Thanks for your time

Apart from ebay, the Guilt promo CD/CDR is relatively difficult to find. They are available to download from iTunes, but only if you live in the US... (Another crazy record company decision)...

It's illegal to download music off the internet, whether you already own it or not. So yeah, you'd be breaking the law.

However, I, and I'd venture to say most people, think the law is a bunch of horseshit and downloaded someone else's digital rip of this as well. And yes, I have the records.

But then, I also downloaded someone else's digital rip of 12x12 and I don't own the records. So maybe I'm just a filthy anarchist or something.

The things I own, I have no problem getting another copy of so I can listen to it in another room or on my ride somewhere. I know that the RIAA has a huge issue with doing that, but their higgley piggley licensing whims are ridiculous and more than verge on unfair use.

Peter Rooney wrote:

What are peoples' views on downloading converted versions from a P2P site, on the basis that I've bought the vinyl, so I'm entitled to listen to the music (I'd buy it if I could find it!)

You know, this is an issue that really bugs me, and nowhere have I really seen it addressed to my satisfaction. Because now, in the download age, the record companies insist that you never "own" anything; you're just "licensing" its use.

So, if I purchased...excuse me, licensed...a copy of Purple Rain on cassette back in 1984 and wore it out, why then should I have to pay to download it from iTunes? Prince already got his royalties, right? I've paid for my "license" already.

Of course, the thing that has saved the record industry is the CD, and now downloads, in that people who bought records and tapes back in the day are now buying those same songs again and again. I'm happy to have an easily downloadable copy of some record I lost in the move back in grad school, but still...did I buy a record, or did I buy the songs? And if so, what makes you think you can sue me for downloading songs I've already paid for? Can I sue the record companies for charging me twice for artist royalties?

Hey, it's Melly!

Didn't recognize you with that new avatar.

It's Gnu!

I'd like to be able to find a lot of things I taped back in the later 80s early 90s on cd. The way it was, most of what I taped was club music and a lot of it wasn't cd released. Or ever released until some nice person threw their vinyl through a converter and enabled me to hear it via mp3 once more.

I have the problem with amassing music on too many formats - not for the benefit of the artists or the companies - purely because I want clearer sound or perhaps have the need for ultraportability...

I refuse to be denied to listen to music I paid for on different formats through an acceptable medium I deem worthy. This is the agreement I bowed to when I purchased said product, and expect it to be good enough for the big boys to understand before they sue myself or any other consumer.

melly wrote: The things I own, I have no problem getting another copy of so I can listen to it in another room or on my ride somewhere. I know that the RIAA has a huge issue with doing that, but their higgley piggley licensing whims are ridiculous and more than verge on unfair use.

This is pretty much my philosophy also. I feel that if I purchased the record or tape 15 or 20 years ago, then I should be able to also get the digital version online for free. I have already paid for the music once, why should I have to pay a second time for something that I already own. the record companies don't look at this this way, but that is one of the many reasons why they they are loosing customers.

It also does not help atleast in my case, a lot of the other music that I like outside of New Order, you can no longer find in a record store or on places like ITunes, since they came out in the early to mid 80's and were not mainstream.

Psy

Are you related to Wayne?

Psylocke Smythe wrote: It also does not help atleast in my case, a lot of the other music that I like outside of New Order, you can no longer find in a record store or on places like ITunes, since they came out in the early to mid 80's and were not mainstream.

Psy

That too. It was tough enough finding "alternative" records back in the day, and now it's downright impossible. Starbucks carries about 12 CD titles, and I guess that's all you're supposed to expect anymore. That's a record store circa 2006.

Not to sound too pro-piracy, but in the case of New Order, I likely never would have purchased a NO record if my buddy hadn't given me a homemade mixtape of his brother's 12-inches. It's only from that old TDK SA-90 that I've come to purchase so many NO records, DVDs, T-shirts, etc.; I've even bought Brotherhood three times now, and it still sucks.

Psylocke Smythe wrote: I feel that if I purchased the record or tape 15 or 20 years ago, then I should be able to also get the digital version online for free. I have already paid for the music once, why should I have to pay a second time for something that I already own. the record companies don't look at this this way, but that is one of the many reasons why they they are loosing customers.

That's the reason why when I'm collecting New Order, I only buy the first copy of, say WFTSC UK edition. Then I steal the other releases of that album, US edition, JP edition, etc. Why should I pay for those when I already paid for the UK edition? Ok, perhaps I should pay say $2 for the material and shipping and handling, but still?

Same thing goes for that tape from the 80s I bought. The tape is all hiss and noise, so I go to the store and grab one of those crisp sounding CDs. I don't pay for it. Why should I? I already paid for it in the 80s...

Well, sarcasm aside. Illegal is illegal. Even if we think it's morally right...

/TLV

TLV wrote:

Well, sarcasm aside. Illegal is illegal. Even if we think it's morally right...

/TLV

Well, that was kinda what I was addressing in my first post. There's morality and there's law, and law comes from government, and government acts under the pressure of industry lobbying groups. How much pressure did the music industry put on government to make music downloads illegal (or kill DAT, or levy a tax on blank cassette tapes)? Then, when someone finally figured out that people would pay for downloads (under the right conditions), the industry shifted its focus elsewhere: now the question is what you can do with the music you pay for. Are you renting the right to listen to it, or do you own it? See details here.

Again, I'm not arguing morality here. But I think we have a right to question these laws, which are such a confused mess because the record companies don't know what they're doing yet, but they have huge lobbying power that I as a consumer don't have. Legally, if all I'm doing is "licensing" the right to listen to a song at my convenience (the Rhapsody model), downloads of records I already own should be free, 'cause I've already paid the license, right?

...and not to belabor the point, but suppose the labels decide to go to region encoding (as in DVDs) for some reason. You can buy the next Japanese NO release, but you won't be able to play it on your CD player. Why should you have rights to a CD that isn't even sold in your country? Or maybe they'll go to "Moviebeam" style distribution, where an Internet connection will log how many times you play your CDs and will cut you off at a certain limit or charge your credit card.

Gnu Odor wrote:

TLV wrote:

Well, sarcasm aside. Illegal is illegal. Even if we think it's morally right...

/TLV

Well, that was kinda what I was addressing in my first post. There's morality and there's law, and law comes from government, and government acts under the pressure of industry lobbying groups. ...

Bummer, had a reply written but it got lost because of my stupidity...

Anyway, in short. I see two issues:

1. Free download of music (i.e. digital copies) because I bought the music in a different format before.

2. What can I do with my purchased downloads?

I did comment on issue 1 only. Before when you bought an LP, you bought the music on that format. If you wanted it on a differnt format you had to pay for that too. So if you want the music in a digital format (download) you have to pay for it even if you've already bought the CD, LP, tape, or 8-track.

For issue 2, I want to be able to use my purchased music whenever, whereever. DRM restricting personal use is crap. I can still agree that it should be illegal to share my digital music with everyone (i.e., p2p).

But I don't always keep the speed limit either... ;)

/TLV