Best quality audio on Joy Division CDs?

Just wondering if anyone has any opinions on the sound quality of the CD issues of Joy Division's back catalogue.

i.e. comparing
Heartandsoul - the albums - Permanent - Substance

cheers

Every version of Still I've heard sounds pretty weak and distant-especially the live side. This is unfortunate, because while the record is a bit uneven and the live performance is shaky in parts, it contains a few classics, particularly in Something Must Break and a great, understated delivery of Digital.

Has anyone posited why Ian's vocals are mixed lower on Still than any other JD record? I can't remember if it was released after or before Movement, but perhaps Hannett really went for that submerged feeling in the post-production. In addition to this similarity, the sound effects on the aforementioned Something Must Break sound a lot more like the effects used on Movement, e.g. the respective codas to Chosen Time and I.C.B., than JD's other effect-laden studio tracks.

The reason i ask is because i'm going to upload the music onto my mp3 player, so i'm interested in which version of, say Atmosphere, is clearest (Substance, Permanent, H&S?)

I'll give the cds a listen myself tomorrow

Heart & Soul most likely. Plus it`ll all be the same quality/sound level on each track.

Heart & Soul along with Permanent (for the LWTUA bside) pretty much serves as the new archive for Joy Division tracks. The only thing that bugs me about it is that Walk in Line is not represented on either, and the final concert is stuck on the poorly mastered Still.

sadly mp3 of the only format i can listen to my music in. i have all of the released work in at least 256 sample rate etc etc. the unreleased tracks suffer in quality as i have only been able to find some bootleg work down to 128.

my xbox 360 ->> Onyko amp can decode the digital signal to stereo and it does a great job with dolby digiital EX. ai m very happy with this setup. other environments such as my sandisk and car have issues ...

i have never bought heart and soul so I can't comment.

Heart and Soul's remastered, isn't it? Sounds great, anyway.

Heart and Soul and Permanent sound great. The UP, Substance and Closer version I have (CentreDate) sound OK. Still sounds pretty poor and definitely needs a remastering job.

Thanks all :)

JV wrote: Has anyone posited why Ian's vocals are mixed lower on Still than any other JD record? I can't remember if it was released after or before Movement, but perhaps Hannett really went for that submerged feeling in the post-production.

Still was previously released material, so I can't imagine that Hannett went back and fiddled with anything. Those songs weren't intended to be a part of any cohesive album at the time they were recorded and I don't recall ever reading or hearing that they were remixed. There would probably be "remixed versus original" threads all over this forum had that been done.

Besides, Hannett thought he was god. Finished = finished. He probably would have been appalled if anyone suggested he go back and alter something he'd done.

bah you got me curious to c if they are better on heart and soul, off to get them ...

i am deaf or my versions of closer and UP are already remastered. back to trying to find a better version of the "winter gardens" concert.

The sound quality on Permanent is the best I've heard. Haven't bought Heart and Soul but imagine it's just as good.

I got the Preston 1980 cd and the sound quality is surprisingly good, considering. Puts the live section of 'Still' to shame.

Joy Division albums are currently being remastered for reissue. Hooky mentions it at the end of this interview:

DueMonday

Regarding Permanent: The Permanent mix of Love Will Tear Us Apart is plagued by static during the opening guitar chords (I have the US Qwest/Warner Bros. issue). The same problem is evident on my Canadian CD single. Do the UK issues suffer from this?

Permanent and H&S having the best sound quality?

You guys are all nuts. ;)

Permanent is flat-topped, no dynamics whatsoever. Just look at it in any wave editor, especially compared to any of the same tracks off the original Factory/Qwest/London CDs. It sounds "better" because it's simply louder. Turn the volume up for the same track on, say, an original Closer CD and you'll see. Permanent (and H&S to a lesser degree) are victims of the "compress the hell out of it for the kids and their car stereos/iPods/boomboxes" school of "remastering".

The best sound (and this is all my opinion of course) remains the original vinyl issues, and the original CD masterings. That said, the Japanese CD masterings from the '80s are the best I've ever heard on CD.

drew

Still was not just previously released stuff though. Something Must Break, The Only Mistake, Walked in Line, The Kill, etc weren't released before. Hannet and Barney did go back into the studio in the summer of '81 to 'finish' the tracks - guitar overdubs were certainly added. Most of Ian's vocals on these tracks were 'guide' vocals and weren't meant to be final versions.

drewc wrote: Permanent is flat-topped, no dynamics whatsoever.

I agree about Permanent, but H&S isn't overcompressed at all. No flat tops at all. Even Permanent isn't that bad compared to today's standards.

mrgreen71 wrote:

drewc wrote: Permanent is flat-topped, no dynamics whatsoever.

I agree about Permanent, but H&S isn't overcompressed at all. No flat tops at all. Even Permanent isn't that bad compared to today's standards.

True regarding H&S - but I really question the EQ moves AR did for that mastering. Compare H&S to any of the original vinyl and it's plain as day... I'm not sure why they saw the need to bump the 1khz slider up a few dB.

drew

oh, don't suspect too much for the sound quality on the new remastered cds. I bet they will be louder again (will they ever stop the competition?), and hopefully they will not turn out as bad as retro or, even worse, singles. hopefully saville is involved in restoring the original sleeves. while heart and soul is a good compromise to today's hearing habits, I'll always stick with the original Factory CDs. Hannett-productions need space, no compression...

and I just remember the ACR-reissues on Soul Jazz: what a mess regarding the mastering and proof that you just can't put your standard filters on all tracks no matter when and how they were recorded. kevin rowland wrote something good about it in the linernotes of the "don't stand me down"-reissue. max

Ally wrote:

drewc wrote: The best sound (and this is all my opinion of course) remains the original vinyl issues, and the original CD masterings.

Well each to their own.

Personally, I find the original Factory CDs very flat sounding and the Qwest ones even worse. I'd much rather listen to Permanent or Heart & Soul any day. Permanent always sounds crisper and much more vibrant to me and not simply because it's "louder".

There's no way the Factory/Centredate/Qwest Joy Division CDs from 1986 sound better than Heart & Soul, sorry but that's just bollocks.

All due respect, Ally, but have you heard any of the original JD vinyl? Granted the Factory/Centredate/Qwest CDs from '86 and onward sound nothing like the vinyl, but the Japanese CDs do. And surprisingly enough, the one-off Rough Trade pressed&distributed USA CD FACTUS VI Closer from '88 or so - shortly before the Qwest issues came out - sounds better than the Factory/Qwest/Centredate CDs as well. More like the vinyl, that's for certain.

The vinyl sounds nothing like Permanent and H&S. Trust me on this. I have original vinyl pressings (or high resolution transfers) of all the main catalog items and singles, and they all blow away the sound on Permanent/H&S. Everyone who has heard them agrees, down to a man.

I wish there were an easy way to share these vinyl transfers without violating any copyright BS - the entire lot of you would be amazed.

edit: Here's a track that you'll find on all three releases (H&S, Permanent, Unknown Pleasures CD), from my mint vinyl copy of FACTUS 1 Unknown Pleasures: Day Of The Lords, from FACTUS 1 Unknown Pleasures US vinyl

Blows away all those other versions, doesn't it?

As regards to Permanent, it's compressed up the wazoo. Yeah, other stuff these days is worse (Singles anyone?), but as mentioned above, these productions need room to breathe, to flow. Not only is Permanent compressed, it's also been re-EQ'ed (especially the highs and lows). Some like that sound, some don't. One thing's for sure, it certainly doesn't sound like the vinyl editions.

We just have to hope that the powers that be in charge of the forthcoming reissues attempt to stay faithful to the vinyl sound (without the clicks/pops of course!) - as that's the way it was originally intended to be heard. And I'm not a vinyl purist - far from it! - but some bands just sound better on that medium as their current catalogues stand. JD and NO are two of them.

drew