New Order vs. The Cure Rip-Off Wars

I remember the NO interview where they joked about the two bands taking it in turns to rip each other off

One that no one has mentioned yet is Fascination Street from Disintegration - the bassline is directly ripped from State Of The Nation

GotBlueEyes wrote: I remember the NO interview where they joked about the two bands taking it in turns to rip each other off

One that no one has mentioned yet is Fascination Street from Disintegration - the bassline is directly ripped from State Of The Nation

Yeah, the entire structure of Fascination Street seems to be borrowed from State of The Nation. Also, check out the descending guitar theme of Leave Me Alone to The Cure's Just Like Heaven; the latter, as a matter of fact, is very NO sounding in many ways.

Fascination St is a far superior song to State of the Nation...

And I don think they sounds alike....at all.

OK, so there might be a few instances where songs have some bits lifted, but I really can't see the direct connection some of you are drawing e.g. Fascination Street and SOTN???

Firtly, I'm a New Order freak, have been since 1983. That does not exclude me from other music. I love New Order and I traded live bootleg tapes through the 80's and 90's. Have almost everything they ever released and loads of vinyl boots. Joy Division, Warsaw the works.

Until recently I owned all the Cure records from Disintegration onwards. I saw then live in 1992 at the Big Top in Auckland. To this day it is the best gig I have ever been too... the music, the light show, everything was sublime.

They returned to Auckland last year and played Vector Arena and I had the opportunity to see them again (I got let out for the night with my walking frame). Not as good as 1992, but fucking amazing again. What made it so good was how true fat bobs voice was to the records. Live, they piss all over New Order - no comparison.

The last gig prompted me to start exploring their back catalogue pre Disinetgration and I have been pleasantly surprised at how much I am enjoying the early material as well. 17 Seconds is brilliant. Head On The Door is also excellent. Concert is a great live album. They released the remastered versions with b-sides and rarities which is no doubt a real treat for Cure freaks (which I don't count myself). Better than the fucking New Order reissues we have been getting i.e. singles, international, best of, substance are all the same CD jumbled up (yes, I own them all too).

Bottom line. I don't find Smiths voice grating (but my wife fuckling hates him). To me, they are completely different to New Order. I just don't draw the same lines as many of you e.g. In Between Days vs. Dreams Never End is supposed to be obvious - but not to me. They sound faintly similar, but ripped off - I'm not so sure.

Either way, I don't give a shit. Each persons musical taste will differ from the next. Just enjoy whatever spins your wheels.

By the way, just to show I'm not one eyed, I think 'Wild Mood Swings' is a pile of shit. And I used to think 15 years ago that Smith was a twat who stood around with a guitar that he never played at live gigs - I thought it was a show piece - turns out I was wrong.

Hooky Bass Monster wrote: Better than the fucking New Order reissues we have been getting i.e. singles, international, best of, substance are all the same CD jumbled up (yes, I own them all too).

I don't understand why everyone is complaining about Singles. I am very happy for that compilation. How am I going to get the best version of the best song in history in digital format if it wasn't for Singles? I'm talking of course of Ceremony. Singles is an essential piece for all New Order fans. It's the other compilations that keep repeating the same songs and versions. They are meant for the casual fan anyway. I had the Best of compilation long ago, but was smart enough not to buy International. I'm not satisfied with Retro because again, there are too many repetitions, but there were some rarities that made me buy it. Now that we have Singles, Warner should give us all the B side in one set.

Sorry for hijacking this thread.

I agree with some of the comparisons of songs but I think the Cure was more into the doom and gloom sound and NO at the Technique junction was more into disco and rock with detached/bittersweet sentiments in their lyrics.

The song Ask by the Smiths actually sounds a bit like In Between Days and might be others, so I like to think all of these bands were influencing one another instead of ripping off each other although there's a case for it on some songs.

Influence has been mutual but, as a Cure fan, (to me Cure are better, not by a mile, but by the whole Tour of France than NO) it's fair and square to say it all began because of Robert. I always thought he has a deep envy of Ian.

No, don't gob a tme please, hehehe...

Hooky Bass Monster wrote: OK, so there might be a few instances where songs have some bits lifted, but I really can't see the direct connection some of you are drawing e.g. Fascination Street and SOTN???

Firtly, I'm a New Order freak, have been since 1983. That does not exclude me from other music. I love New Order and I traded live bootleg tapes through the 80's and 90's. Have almost everything they ever released and loads of vinyl boots. Joy Division, Warsaw the works.

Until recently I owned all the Cure records from Disintegration onwards. I saw then live in 1992 at the Big Top in Auckland. To this day it is the best gig I have ever been too... the music, the light show, everything was sublime.

They returned to Auckland last year and played Vector Arena and I had the opportunity to see them again (I got let out for the night with my walking frame). Not as good as 1992, but fucking amazing again. What made it so good was how true fat bobs voice was to the records. Live, they piss all over New Order - no comparison.

The last gig prompted me to start exploring their back catalogue pre Disinetgration and I have been pleasantly surprised at how much I am enjoying the early material as well. 17 Seconds is brilliant. Head On The Door is also excellent. Concert is a great live album. They released the remastered versions with b-sides and rarities which is no doubt a real treat for Cure freaks (which I don't count myself). Better than the fucking New Order reissues we have been getting i.e. singles, international, best of, substance are all the same CD jumbled up (yes, I own them all too).

Bottom line. I don't find Smiths voice grating (but my wife fuckling hates him). To me, they are completely different to New Order. I just don't draw the same lines as many of you e.g. In Between Days vs. Dreams Never End is supposed to be obvious - but not to me. They sound faintly similar, but ripped off - I'm not so sure.

Either way, I don't give a shit. Each persons musical taste will differ from the next. Just enjoy whatever spins your wheels.

By the way, just to show I'm not one eyed, I think 'Wild Mood Swings' is a pile of shit. And I used to think 15 years ago that Smith was a twat who stood around with a guitar that he never played at live gigs - I thought it was a show piece - turns out I was wrong.

First, I understand you wife, hahahaha...

Second, 1992 Cure gigs count amongs their best to date with, to me , their best Cure line-up ever

Third, Wild Mood Swings would've been a fantastic record if Robert had put all the b-sides in and taken out "the 13th"s and all those horrible tunes...

Steve Uno wrote: I can only think of a handful of Cure tracks that sound like New Order,

Just Like Heaven Catch Inbetween Days A Forest

er, thats probably it. Although im no Cure expert!

And "all the way" is a copycat to "Just like heaven"..

Hooky Bass Monster wrote: OK, so there might be a few instances where songs have some bits lifted, but I really can't see the direct connection some of you are drawing e.g. Fascination Street and SOTN???

because it's not a DIRECT connection, as I stated the bass line is the almost exactly the same, obviously the vocal melody, lyrics, guitars etc are different!

This is just an interesting thread about similarities between some of the two bands songs because NO once joked about it in an interview. It's not a criticism of either band - i love both of them! Chillax man!

Hooky Bass Monster wrote: OK, so there might be a few instances where songs have some bits lifted, but I really can't see the direct connection some of you are drawing e.g. Fascination Street and SOTN???

I don't quite hear the connection between Run 2 and Leaving on a Jet Plane either, but who got sued?

There are lots of quotes out there...

Robert Smith admitted he was heavily influenced by early New Order

Robert Smith was in Q Magazine's cash for questions and someone wrote in asking "how many songs have you stolen from New Order" and he replied that he was sick of that question

Peter Hook said the bass player from the Cure rips him off and even has the bass slung low, and that even Peter's mother noticed it.

Bernard Sumner said that it was wrong that the Cure have borrowed from New Order so much.

I find it quite shocking that someone would suggest that the Cure doesn't sound like New Order. I think most critics have noticed it. I also find it shocking that someone thinkgs Robert Smith has good lyrics. They're quite awful really.

http://www.trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=cure

"The Head on the Door opens sounding exactly like New Order"

"The Walk EP is four songs of New Order-ish synthpop"

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=2044

"While they didn't rip off 'The Walk', they began to incorporate New Orders twangy high chorused string sound into many of their songs starting"

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ChainOfFlowers/jointhedots.html

(from blender)

"the horrible squawk of "Mr. Pink Eyes," to the New Order rip-off "Harold and Joe"

I just put the cure rips off new order into a search engine and found lots of internet forum debates about this. How can anyone not see it?

Then again, there are Pavement fans who deny they ripped of the Fall, even though Pavement admitted it!

It's all well and good to say X Cure song sounds like Y New Order song but half the comparisons that have been made don't take the timeline into account.

Joy Division (1977-1980) > 17 Seconds (1980) and Faith (1981) Atrocity Exhibition (1980) > The Hanging Garden (1982) A Forest (1980) > Sunrise (1985) and Crystal (2001) Dreams Never End (1981) > Inbetween Days (1985) Blue Monday (March 1983) > The Walk (June 1983) Just Like Heaven (1987) > All The Way (1989)

Simon Gallup's bass playing did begin to sound like Hooky's, but Hooky was playing that way first.

The Cure did indeed do a cover of LWTUA sometime around 2003. It was for an Australian radio station and I have an MP3 of it somewhere.

£50 Note wrote: It's all well and good to say X Cure song sounds like Y New Order song but half the comparisons that have been made don't take the timeline into account.

Joy Division (1977-1980) > 17 Seconds (1980) and Faith (1981) Atrocity Exhibition (1980) > The Hanging Garden (1982) A Forest (1980) > Sunrise (1985) and Crystal (2001) Dreams Never End (1981) > Inbetween Days (1985) Blue Monday (March 1983) > The Walk (June 1983) Just Like Heaven (1987) > All The Way (1989)

Simon Gallup's bass playing did begin to sound like Hooky's, but Hooky was playing that way first.

The Cure did indeed do a cover of LWTUA sometime around 2003. It was for an Australian radio station and I have an MP3 of it somewhere.

Here's a few others to consider:

I Remember Nothing vs. Disintegration (the synth and broken glass effects at the end of the latter are a direct lift from the former!)

Atrocity Exhibition vs. Pornography (same tribal drum pattern, chaotic guitar noise)

Truth vs. A Strange Day ("Oh it's a strange day...")

Both great bands. Both share a similar bass sound but that's about it. Very different music really. I love 'em both

from an aussie interview here

Participant: »Can I ask you a second question in relation to that, because it happens to me a lot. If I play something like that, people go: “It sounds like The Cure basslines”.«

Peter Hook: »Ironically the people ripping you off never really bothered me. What bothered me about The Cure was when I saw the guy and he was actually playing like me. That annoyed me more than him sounding like me. You bastard. I don’t mind people ripping you off because when we start writing, we start by ripping someone off. “Let’s do a Kraftwerk one.” The skill is when it finishes it doesn’t sound like Kraftwerk, but you’ve used it as a step. We got sued by John Denver for a track called ‘Run’, because he said it sounded like ‘Leaving On A Jet Plane’. Anyone can play me that track and then play ‘Run’. I’ve done it, it does not sound to me like ‘Leaving On A Jet Plane’. Yet, they’ve got these people called musicologists who analyse it and then decide whether it is, and then that’s a legal decision. So he had an American musicologist. It seems John Denver employs somebody to listen to all music to see if anyone’s ripping him off, as if he doesn’t have, or didn’t have, enough money already. They found us and the musicologist says it sounds like John Denver, eight notes out of twelve, which is the scale they use. So we thought, “Ha ha, we’ll get an English musicologist and he’ll prove that it doesn’t sound like it.” So he did it and he agreed as well. We had to give John Denver 20%. It does happen, but we don’t do it. That’s our stand as a band, New Order, if people rip us off – and there have been bands, like The Cure, where even my mother says: “That sounds like you, our Peter.” You know, ‘The Walk’, ‘In Between Days’, stuff like that. But I take it as a compliment. Maybe it’s something you save for your retirement.«

As for the person who said Smiths lyrics are quite bad, some of (hell maybe even most of) Bernards are quite bad

I'm talking of specifically of songs like jetstream, anything from tecnique, etc.

But I guess I feel this way because I'm a Cure fan before a New Order fan, and a Joy Division fan before The Cure.

hibster wrote: from an aussie interview here

That was a freaking great interview--lots of interesting new information (at least to me).

Can't believe the thread got so long before somebody mentioned 'Sunrise'. Barney sounds hysterical. Top tune, mind.

This question is outrageous. The Cure and New Order are so different. I do not think any cure songs sound even close to any NO songs. And for the people who think that the bass is the same; I dont think you're listining to the same thing as me.

Joel wrote: This question is outrageous. The Cure and New Order are so different. I do not think any cure songs sound even close to any NO songs. And for the people who think that the bass is the same; I dont think you're listining to the same thing as me.

You need a hearing aid. The artists themselves think that they're ripping-off each other. You're going to tell me that you know better?

hibster wrote: from an aussie interview here

Participant: »Can I ask you a second question in relation to that, because it happens to me a lot. If I play something like that, people go: “It sounds like The Cure basslines”.«

Peter Hook: »Ironically the people ripping you off never really bothered me. What bothered me about The Cure was when I saw the guy and he was actually playing like me. That annoyed me more than him sounding like me. You bastard. I don’t mind people ripping you off because when we start writing, we start by ripping someone off. “Let’s do a Kraftwerk one.” The skill is when it finishes it doesn’t sound like Kraftwerk, but you’ve used it as a step. We got sued by John Denver for a track called ‘Run’, because he said it sounded like ‘Leaving On A Jet Plane’. Anyone can play me that track and then play ‘Run’. I’ve done it, it does not sound to me like ‘Leaving On A Jet Plane’. Yet, they’ve got these people called musicologists who analyse it and then decide whether it is, and then that’s a legal decision. So he had an American musicologist. It seems John Denver employs somebody to listen to all music to see if anyone’s ripping him off, as if he doesn’t have, or didn’t have, enough money already. They found us and the musicologist says it sounds like John Denver, eight notes out of twelve, which is the scale they use. So we thought, “Ha ha, we’ll get an English musicologist and he’ll prove that it doesn’t sound like it.” So he did it and he agreed as well. We had to give John Denver 20%. It does happen, but we don’t do it. That’s our stand as a band, New Order, if people rip us off – and there have been bands, like The Cure, where even my mother says: “That sounds like you, our Peter.” You know, ‘The Walk’, ‘In Between Days’, stuff like that. But I take it as a compliment. Maybe it’s something you save for your retirement.«

nice!

Probably the best New Order related interview I've read for a long time.

Indeed!

RS said in 1985 when "In Between Days" was released that In Between Days ripped off "Dreams Never End" because he had heard "Sunrise" and noted the comparisons to "A Forest" - so rather than sue, he would get his own back.....

I still don't see how Run sounds like Jet Plane. Besides, Run is a 100 times better than any fuckin Jet Plane. :o

"A Forest" reminds me of something.......................

Matt Davis wrote:

I Remember Nothing vs. Disintegration (the synth and broken glass effects at the end of the latter are a direct lift from the former!)

Good call that one - and not many people would have spotted it either. The similarity IS uncanny even if the songs are nothing like the same.

On the subject of that same Cure album - how about the stately opener "Plainsong" - the whole vibe is like a slowed down "Atmosphere" - right down to the glistening synths and hugely echoed jingly bell effects. Have to admit that's the only track from that Cure album that I really admit to liking. Cos it sounds so majestic and Fat Bob is actually singing in a bearable voice rather than whining - that's coming from someone who isnt really that arsed about The Cure.

Regarding "Sunrise," other than the main synth theme being similar (although NOT the same), the song sounds nothing like "A Forest." So I have a difficult time labeling this as an example of a "rip off."

While we're at it, here's another one: listen to the intro of The Cure's "Homesick." It may as well be considered "Elegia II."