Ripping the ORDER off!

Originally posted by Isamu Doubt anyone's gonna back me up in here but just note that the the above is all in *Isamu's humble opinion* Your turn :)

I will back you up - I have only scratched the surface of the Cure and (as more money becomes available) I plan on going much deeper with them. It angers me when people call them just depressive synth pop - that is so not true. I wish people would hear more than 2 songs by a band before attaching some lame label to them. The Cure is their own band, as is New Order - giving credit to one without the other is evidence of blindness and not insight.

Eggszackly! That's just the thing... the only thing they share is their history and their popularity amoung the British, Canadian and American fans

Don't forget New Order's ripoff of a John Denver song on "Run".

I have albums from all four bands. New Order being my favorite, Cure next, Depeche Mode, and the Pet Shop Boys. No-one has entered Ultravox or OMD into the equation yet - which are both high on my list of all time best bands. I used to own everything Ultravox ever did, and just about all of OMD's stuff. Here are my recommendations for those listeners who are grounded in the reality that New Order is awesome, but there are other worthy electronic / industrial / techo bands worth investigating. Do yourself a favor and check these albums out on their own merits - not rip offs from anyone, just bands who listened, appreciated, and were influenced by each other. They all have their important places in music history. Each one of them have survived for 20+ years!

OMD must have albums: Architecture And Morality Junk Culture Crush

Depeche Mode must haves: Some Great Reward Black Celebration Violator

Ultravox must haves: Rage In Eden Vienna Lament

Pet Shop Boys must haves: Actually Behavior

Cure must haves: Seventeen Seconds Japanese Whispers Paris Live or Show Live (Double) Mixed Up New Best Of double CD with acoustic bonus CD

There really isn't any reason I can think of why a New Order lover wouldn't enjoy every one of these albums.

front line assembly.

i LOVE New Order, but the range in their sound is not nearly as wide as that of The Cure. The Cure's catalogue is not only much larger, but far more diverse. but i personally don't see how either band ripped off the other. i mean, the cure albums Seventeen Seconds, Faith and Pornography are all very derivative of Joy Division (particularly the latter), but at least they acknowledge it freely. and Atmosphere can be seen as sort of the song that inspired all of Disintegration. so i think that The Cure was infinitely more influenced by JD than NO.

i hope i don't outrage anyone with this post - i certainly don't mean to! i'm sorry if i have! :(

Nice to see such an old thread still making the rounds. It is a year old now.

Originally posted by Warm Hands, Cold Heart > Originally posted by JORGE TEIXEIRA> Oh my god! Don't get me started! Anyone knows a small outfit called Pet Shop Boys?

What songs are you referring to?

I don't remember anyone mentionning before that the PSB had ripped New Order off.

I've only been a Pethead for about 16 yrs (as compared to a NO fan for about 20) and I've never heard them rip NO off. Neil and Chris are quite original.

:D:D:D:D anita

Originally posted by Wolfmann I have albums from all four bands. New Order being my favorite, Cure next, Depeche Mode, and the Pet Shop Boys. No-one has entered Ultravox or OMD into the equation yet - which are both high on my list of all time best bands. I used to own everything Ultravox ever did, and just about all of OMD's stuff. Here are my recommendations for those listeners who are grounded in the reality that New Order is awesome, but there are other worthy electronic / industrial / techo bands worth investigating. Do yourself a favor and check these albums out on their own merits - not rip offs from anyone, just bands who listened, appreciated, and were influenced by each other. They all have their important places in music history. Each one of them have survived for 20+ years!OMD must have albums:Architecture And MoralityJunk CultureCrushDepeche Mode must haves:Some Great RewardBlack CelebrationViolatorUltravox must haves:Rage In EdenViennaLamentPet Shop Boys must haves:ActuallyBehaviorCure must haves:Seventeen SecondsJapanese WhispersParis Live or Show Live (Double)Mixed UpNew Best Of double CD with acoustic bonus CDThere really isn't any reason I can think of why a New Order lover wouldn't enjoy every one of these albums.

Add Ultravox's Vienna, the John Foxx era albums, and the rest of the Pet Shop Boys catalog and you've got a winner.

:D:D:D:D:D anita...but U-vox sucked....

Stanley Kubrick ripped off bits of Murder :)

And just to be serious...

Listen to "Nature's Revenge" and "Shorelined Poison" on Skinny Puppy's rather fabbo "Too Dark Park" LP - especially those bass lines on "Nature's Revenge".

Perhaps it must be different over the pond but it is only since I started visiting this site that I have seen New Order being lumped in with the Cure, Depeche Mode and the Pet Shop Boys. And now even Ultravox...god forbid.

I'm sure all these other bands have had their moments but certainly in the UK New Order have absolutely nothing in common with these types of bands. Mainly because New Order attracted a completely different type of following which largely wore alot less make-up and black polo necks.

If anything I can see the link between NO and Kraftwerk and even the Smiths to a certain extent in the mid-late 80's. I quite like the PSB's but they sound fuck all like New Order.

I always forget about the phone lock but if you changed your name it wouldn't happen!

Old Trafford has certainly changed since my last visit, its lost its 'magical appeal' now its a 67,000 all seat behemoth. Out of all the grounds its probably suffered the most from taking the terraces away.

Not too sure whether I like all these new fangled grounds such as the Riverside, St Mary's, Stadium of Light etc as they are all the same. Even the town centres are exactly the same these days.

Taking T up to Hell-and Road tomorrow, what a lovely way to celebrate the New Year!

There's still plenty of 'taches and Burberry in our away end these days - sometimes I think its 1985 all over again.

Originally posted by anita > Originally posted by Wolfmann> I have albums from all four bands... There really isn't any reason I can think of why a New Order lover wouldn't enjoy every one of these albums.

Add Ultravox's Vienna, the John Foxx era albums, and the rest of the Pet Shop Boys catalog and you've got a winner.

:D:D:D:D:D anita...but U-vox sucked....

Yeah, U-Vox and everything after sucked huge, but the band wasn't really even Ultravox at that point. They should have changed their name.

Originally posted by Mickey Way Perhaps it must be different over the pond but it is only since I started visiting this site that I have seen New Order being lumped in with the Cure, Depeche Mode and the Pet Shop Boys. And now even Ultravox...god forbid.I'm sure all these other bands have had their moments but certainly in the UK New Order have absolutely nothing in common with these types of bands. Mainly because New Order attracted a completely different type of following which largely wore alot less make-up and black polo necks.If anything I can see the link between NO and Kraftwerk and even the Smiths to a certain extent in the mid-late 80's. I quite like the PSB's but they sound fuck all like New Order.

I wasn't really lumping NO in with PSB's. Maybe the danciest stuff from NO being a little like PSB's, but even that is a stretch. I can see similarities from New Order and Ultravox. Basically take some of NO's moodiness (kind of the Manc thing), mix in the German club sound thing and you have Ultravox - the middle of the Ultravox career that is. I don't know how you can keep NO and the Cure totally apart. I did like the one comment about The Cure being more influenced by JD than NO, I can see that. Skinny Puppy was cool too, but really not like NO. Same with Front Line Assembly, cool, but not to be mentioned along with NO. Both SP and FLA were very experimental, also unlike most anything from their time. This paragraph ought to get this thread going again for awhile. Lots of statements to get me in trouble. Let the belittling begin.

Similarities between Ultravox and New Order?! Now we know you must be jesting...;)

Back in the day when me and my mates had an impromptu party at someone's flat after a night out the types of records that were played alongside NO tunes were stuff by the Fall, the Clash, the Jam, Sex Pistols, the Specials, the Smiths (on occasion) and then onto bands like Happy Mondays, 808 State and acid house etc. None of these bands sound anything like the Order but to my mind fit more closely together given their attitudes and the era that spawned them. Though this was in no way any type of 'scene'.

Bomb the Bass and the Cookie Crew have more in common with New Order than Ultravox (and I'm being serious)...:D

Originally posted by Mickey Way Similarities between Ultravox and New Order?! Now we know you must be jesting...;)Back in the day when me and my mates had an impromptu party at someone's flat after a night out the types of records that were played alongside NO tunes were stuff by the Fall, the Clash, the Jam, Sex Pistols, the Specials, the Smiths (on occasion) and then onto bands like Happy Mondays, 808 State and acid house etc. None of these bands sound anything like the Order but to my mind fit more closely together given their attitudes and the era that spawned them. Though this was in no way any type of 'scene'. Bomb the Bass and the Cookie Crew have more in common with New Order than Ultravox (and I'm being serious)...:D

I think if you were to take NO and raise them in Germany, you would have Ultravox. The reason that there are big differences between the two bands is because of what was going on in the different countries at the time. I am not saying that NO sounds just like Ultravox. I do feel that they are very similar with their approach to music. I know it's a stretch, I am not saying it isn't. But, if the four of them were raised in Germany - keep all the same life experiences, they would have sounded a lot like Ultravox. I still can't believe that people think they sound like Kraftwerk - Kraftwerk? If you can say that with a straight face, and deny the similarities with Ultravox, then I am confused... which most of you have probably gathered by now. Also, The Clash and New Order have NO similarities at all. They have similarities with JD's earliest works... and that is it. I don't even see how they had the same attitude as New Order. I won't hear of this Clash stuff again. They were a great band, but don't let me catch any of you saying they stand alongside the Order... Sex Pistols yes, New Order NO.

Skinny Puppy's rather fabbo "Too Dark Park" LP<<

it's definitely my favorite SP album. god, it's incredible. Grave Wisdom is one of the most intense songs i've ever heard.

"nightmare running races skyward towers boil blackwater tea."

oooh.

but Smothered Hope is still my favorite.

i got the first part of my name from the SP song Film.

Originally posted by Wolfmann > Originally posted by Mickey Way> Similarities between Ultravox and New Order?! Now we know you must be jesting...;)> > Back in the day when me and my mates had an impromptu party at someone's flat after a night out the types of records that were played alongside NO tunes were stuff by the Fall, the Clash, the Jam, Sex Pistols, the Specials, the Smiths (on occasion) and then onto bands like Happy Mondays, 808 State and acid house etc. None of these bands sound anything like the Order but to my mind fit more closely together given their attitudes and the era that spawned them. Though this was in no way any type of 'scene'. > > Bomb the Bass and the Cookie Crew have more in common with New Order than Ultravox (and I'm being serious)...:D

I think if you were to take NO and raise them in Germany, you would have Ultravox. The reason that there are big differences between the two bands is because of what was going on in the different countries at the time. I am not saying that NO sounds just like Ultravox. I do feel that they are very similar with their approach to music. I know it's a stretch, I am not saying it isn't. But, if the four of them were raised in Germany - keep all the same life experiences, they would have sounded a lot like Ultravox. I still can't believe that people think they sound like Kraftwerk - Kraftwerk? If you can say that with a straight face, and deny the similarities with Ultravox, then I am confused... which most of you have probably gathered by now. Also, The Clash and New Order have NO similarities at all. They have similarities with JD's earliest works... and that is it. I don't even see how they had the same attitude as New Order. I won't hear of this Clash stuff again. They were a great band, but don't let me catch any of you saying they stand alongside the Order... Sex Pistols yes, New Order NO.

I thought Midge Ure was Scottish? And what has Germany got to do with anything?

The dance club music scene of Germany is one of the apparent biggest influences on Ultravox's and Kraftwerk's music - or it may be safer to say that Kraftwerk's music created the German dance club thing, and Ultravox contributed quite a bit as well, but no where near as much as Kraftwerk.

Err, but what has that got to do with New Order?

Anyway, I'm sure there wasn't much of a German 'dance' scene prior to Kraftwerk and anyhow you can't see much of a connection between them and NO. I would suspect that NO have been influenced by Kraftwerk rather than some generic German 'dance' scene however.

Bernard has been quoted as saying that they used to play Kraftwerk before they went on stage as JD. Indeed YSF was originally called KW1. The Musique Non-Stop album was played at New Order gigs prior to them taking the stage at a few gigs circa '87. I think there is at least some link /influence between Kraftwerk and NO.

I never said there was any link between the Clash and NO - that was just the type of music we played alongside NO records at the time.

This thread and the Ceremony thread has been a real eye opener for me. Obviously the experience of UK and USA fans is quite different.

I can't imagine the reception that the likes of Ultravox would get by NO fans if they played on the same bill...for fucks sake...they are poles apart.;)

Originally posted by Mickey Way Err, but what has that got to do with New Order?Anyway, I'm sure there wasn't much of a German 'dance' scene prior to Kraftwerk and anyhow you can't see much of a connection between them and NO. I would suspect that NO have been influenced by Kraftwerk rather than some generic German 'dance' scene however.Bernard has been quoted as saying that they used to play Kraftwerk before they went on stage as JD. Indeed YSF was originally called KW1. The Musique Non-Stop album was played at New Order gigs prior to them taking the stage at a few gigs circa '87. I think there is at least some link /influence between Kraftwerk and NO.I never said there was any link between the Clash and NO - that was just the type of music we played alongside NO records at the time. This thread and the Ceremony thread has been a real eye opener for me. Obviously the experience of UK and USA fans is quite different. I can't imagine the reception that the likes of Ultravox would get by NO fans if they played on the same bill...for fucks sake...they are poles apart.;)

I couldn't ever see them playing together either. I was just explaining how I see the two bands. I never expected anyone to agree, but I see things the way I see them. I would say that how people in the states identify with bands is totally different than that of a European. I am British, but raised in the US for most of my life. I tend to gravitate towards European music, mainly English, for the most part. My best friend both now, and one I had in High School were both fans of NO above all other bands as well. Me relating to the Manc thing would be like you relating to the Seattle grunge thing. I am sure people living in Seattle see it different than I did, and I am still in the same country.

Fair enough Wolfie. We all base our opinionions on our own personal experiences.

I am quite intrigued as to how New Order, Depeche, Cure, Ultravox etc get viewed as being similar or as part of a scene stateside. Many of the profiles of US posters list these bands as their favourites.

How did this happen? Is college radio to blame. In the UK New Order weren't really part of any identifiable scene.

Originally posted by Mickey Way Fair enough Wolfie. We all base our opinionions on our own personal experiences.I am quite intrigued as to how New Order, Depeche, Cure, Ultravox etc get viewed as being similar or as part of a scene stateside. Many of the profiles of US posters list these bands as their favourites.How did this happen? Is college radio to blame. In the UK New Order weren't really part of any identifiable scene.

That's a good guess. College and High School radio in the early eighties was the only place you heard New Order, OMD, Ultravox, Jesus And The Mary Chain, Sister's Of Mercy, Caberet Voltaire, The Smiths, Echo, Depeche Mode, The Cure, Skinny Puppy, Psychic TV, Joy Division and many others. I learned about JD and NO from a high school DJ who loved them and played them a lot on his show. All those bands were lumped into the Underground/Industrial category. Today industrial is more NIN and heavy programmed bands like that. When I was growing up, many of the previously mentioned bands were mentioned in that Industrial reference. That probably explains why all those bands get lumped together in my mind, and in the mind of other people in the states. We can help we weren't raised in Manc during the late 70's and 80's.

Its funny how things evolve. I was brought up in a provincial Midlands town which did have a rather cracking 'alternative' night throughout the 80's until the onset of Acid House.

Here you would hear the Smiths, the Sisters of Mercy and any manner of Goth shite, early Rolling Stones and whatever was in the top 10 of the Indie Charts as published by the NME at the time. JD was very rarely played but if you hassled the DJ enough we would get Temptation, Everythings Gone Green, Ceremony. Funnily enough these songs used to clear the dancefloor and leave about 10-20 of us having a mosh on the dance floor.

New Order even seemed 'alternative' up the alternative night. This leads me back to my original point a few pages ago as we were about the only people who weren't kitted out in black and would even venture up the same nightspot on Fri and Sat to hear the latest terrible Top 40 offerings and Blue Monday if you were lucky. So New Order didn't seem to fit into either the alternative or mainstream scene at the time though they had a few biggish hits.

I suspect that alot of UK NO fans in their mid-30's plus had similar experiences and thats why we cannot see whatsoever how NO can be linked in anyway to bands like Depeche, Cure, PSBs and Ultravox.

In my experience, anyone who liked any of those bands were all grouped together. The outside rare and few. Heck, New Order, OMD, and Depeche Mode played together in concert - for us that was a concert to end all concerts. 3 of our top 5 bands in one show. It would be like The Fall, New Order, and Happy Mondays playing together in Manc or The Clash, The Sex Pistols, and Joy Division. It was a big deal. Especially since OMD and New Order rarely ever played live anywhere near us.

Kraftwerk were a huge influence on NO (and JD too). They are probably the most influential act of the 70s on today's music, followed by punk in general (however you would divvy up the credit for that) and Throbbing Gristle. Unknown Pleasures is pretty much Pere Ubu/'Diamond Dogs' era Bowie/punk rock material with Kraftwerk/Neu! and dub inspired production.