Ripping the ORDER off!

Yeah, I forgot to mention early REM (Dead Letter Office, etc...) and TG in that big lumped together college / high school radio group. TG was related closer to the JD thing than the NO, Cure, OMD thing. If it wasn't for alternative radio, we would have all been listening to Richard Marx and Winger.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis I'm still gobsmacked that anyone can make comparisons from New Order to ... Ultravox! Not two bands I would ever deem to mention in the same breath. What's the commonality - they both had chart singles in 1981, or something?

I must confess I used to frequent the 'EXTREME VOICE' site, being a big Ultravox fan in the 80's ( both Ure & Foxx era ) and of course, no one listens to U-vox or even care to own the album...

Well, similarities between NEW ORDER and ULTRAVOX?...how about they are both friends of PETER SAVILLE, the sleeve designer. Many of ULTRAVOX's album sleeves were designed by SAVILLE ( ....I thought RAGE IN EDEN cover was glorious...despite copyright problems ala ACADEMY ) and I've read an interview where Peter mentioned liking Ultravox up to a certain point where 'they lost the plot'..I certainly agree!!!

[uh-oh, a novel ] to share another experience from observing in the States, here's how it was around me in high school in a suburb of Seattle:

Of the few people who were into music at all, and into the the kinds we are talking about, most were into synthpop plus a few other bands. New Order, Pet Shop Boys, Depeche Mode, Erasure, the Cure, the Smiths, and yes, Ultravox. It was a preset list of bands that they rarely ever deviated from. I don't know who made this list. Then lite industrial started to come into it. Guitars were ok only in English, older bands. "too twangy" was a frequent complaint about anything else--such as Ceremony! Never mind the obvious rockabilly influence in the Smiths, this didn't have to be logical, most of these people had very limited musical knowledge anyway. Some liked Joy Division, but most thought JD was too loud, too punk, too much guitar, too emotional, or something. The people into this pattern were usually either university-bound, people who wear a lot of black, or both. Many but not all of the black-clad people added more industrial stuff and the Sisters of Mercy and maybe Bauhaus. And that was that.

People like that way outnumbered the people who liked lots of other music. Mostly I had few people to share the Chameleons, the Replacements, Sonic Youth, etc with and it's not like that was even very obscure music. The strict synthpop thing was boring boring boring and I failed to see what Depeche Mode, Pet Shop Boys, whatever other throwaway synthpop was around at the time and that sappy Ultravox song that everyone wanted to slow-dance to (that was ultravox wasn't it? maybe memory fails me) had in common with the Smiths and New Order or even the Cure, who were so eclectic. now I've mellowed out and have some respect for PSB, but people's narrow horizons back then really turned me off. There were a few other subcultural-type things, like skate punks, who listened to hard-core, and grunge people just before grunge got big and turned into a joke. Some of those grunge folks really were into interesting stuff and were in bands and they helped turn me on to the local music scene.

Then I graduated and got the heck out of suburbia.

Another annoying thing is that many people in the US back then thought it was "ok" to get into that stuff--the short list or the greater variety--once you go to college. Never mind if you gave the freaks in high school crap for their musical taste, now you're in college you can listen to college rock, it's your college phase. A friend of mine in high school was told by her sister's husband's coworker that you should be careful if your kids are into that music before college--kids like that are bad news.

Over the years I've met many people and read or heard a lot of dialogue from even more people, collectively a lot of music fanatics and including a lot of musicians, who love New Order and don't limit themselves to DepecheModePetShopBoysTheCureUltravox and don't lump New Order in with those. Many people who like New Order and like postpunk in general, lots of it, and rave about bands like the Comsat Angels and the Sound, but who also love rock from its various eras and are continually looking out for new things and not stuck in the past because "there's no good music anymore". This is satisfying to me and helps me learn about unfamiliar music too.

So I think if you look at most of US society and find the majority of people who've heard of New Order, they probably lump them in with synthpop, because that's the depth of their 80's "alternative" rock knowledge--that preset list of bands that a few kids back in high school or college were into.

But we're not all like that.

I should have mentioned--i was in high school (age 14-18), 1987-1991

in rural Louisiana, you were labeled a GODDAMN FAGGOT if you listened to NewOrder, Smiths, DMode, Erasure, Cure etc...and yes these bands were all lumped into the same catagory "Faggot Music"....not a pretty scene...

things never change in the south.

Actually, a similar thing happened to me while I was going to high school in Chicago, Illinois (USA). I was ostracized for liking DM, New Order, the Smiths, and any other similar music. A lot of people at the school were into House music at the time, as the scene was apparently jumping and popular...

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid> in rural Louisiana, you were labeled a GODDAMN FAGGOT if you listened to NewOrder, Smiths, DMode, Erasure, Cure etc...and yes these bands were all lumped into the same catagory "Faggot Music"....not a pretty scene...> > things never change in the south.

Er, but surely they are all "Faggot Music"?

Well, 'cept for New Order - obviously - and possibly the Smiths (though wandering around with a bunch of daffs was just a tad passe in the 80's).

Most of the standard American males around me assume the NO, Cure, PSB, Depeche Mode, and any other band like any of these are gay. They can't imagine straight men being in any band anywhere near any of these.

Originally posted by Wolfmann > Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid> in rural Louisiana, you were labeled a GODDAMN FAGGOT if you listened to NewOrder, Smiths, DMode, Erasure, Cure etc...and yes these bands were all lumped into the same catagory "Faggot Music"....not a pretty scene...> > things never change in the south.

Er, but surely they are all "Faggot Music"?

Well, 'cept for New Order - obviously - and possibly the Smiths (though wandering around with a bunch of daffs was just a tad passe in the 80's).

Most of the standard American males around me assume the NO, Cure, PSB, Depeche Mode, and any other band like any of these are gay. They can't imagine straight men being in any band anywhere near any of these.

Well, PSB are gay, aren't they?

And BLT and True Faith got quite a lot of play in the gay clubs in the late 80's, even into the early 90's.

Originally posted by Patrick > Originally posted by Wolfmann> > > > Originally posted by Al Jarvis> > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid> in rural Louisiana, you were labeled a GODDAMN FAGGOT if you listened to NewOrder, Smiths, DMode, Erasure, Cure etc...and yes these bands were all lumped into the same catagory "Faggot Music"....not a pretty scene...> > things never change in the south.

Er, but surely they are all "Faggot Music"?

Well, 'cept for New Order - obviously - and possibly the Smiths (though wandering around with a bunch of daffs was just a tad passe in the 80's).

Most of the standard American males around me assume the NO, Cure, PSB, Depeche Mode, and any other band like any of these are gay. They can't imagine straight men being in any band anywhere near any of these.

Well, PSB are gay, aren't they?

And BLT and True Faith got quite a lot of play in the gay clubs in the late 80's, even into the early 90's.

Let us not forget TPK...dern'd near a gay anthem in the 80's/90's..."Kiss of death" says it all....

sigh.

Well, it's really just a perspective thing. I think Benny came to an understanding of this when a similar conversation occured on another thread. If I remember correctly, it had to do with how the songs from Brotherhood didn't click with him so well as he was so used to hearing them live the way N.O. were performing those tracks live *before* the album's release. All of you folks in the UK have been fortunate enough to have seen/heard classic NO/JD songs evolve from stage to record/CD, while us Americans can only get mainly albums and singles (this is also somewhat-related to my mini-rant in the "Is Retro worth it?" thread) that were released on college (and some high school) radio. Remember the American film "Pretty In Pink"? To us Americans, having a movie like that with a lot of cool music was like getting a really early Christmas present. And even though the college radio stations were playing NO, DM, PSB, UV, etc., they tended to play only the mainstream hits (hence why there was a period where I was tired of hearing "Blue Monday" because the friggin' radio stations would play ONLY that track!). I could remember when I would call my favorite college radio stations and request a non-single NO track, and wait a couple of hours only to hear BM or BLT for the 20th time!

So any way, as I realized with that rant over "Retro" and Mr. Disco's perspective, where you are is a factor of what you want---and don't want---to listen to, and what you may have to pay to get what you want (or don't want!). :(

The whole availability issue of music in general is a double-edged sword. Record companies and artists want to promote their music to places and demographic that are proven to be full of fans, while at the same time they never are fully aware of the actual fan base that MIGHT exist in a particular geographical area (and in effect, neglect some potential areas full of new fans). So while NO were performing a little song known as "Temptation" on stage for the first time to UK audiences, the (future, potential) American fan-base is exposed to Richard Marx, Air Supply, and Winger on the radio (the same is also said of other countries where the market for new music has similar problems in promotion and distribution). :p

So what the American NO/JD fans are saying is that all the cool, different, "underground" music was lumped together. Not because we thought they sounded the same, but because they WEREN'T the poppy crap blasted constantly on mainstream radio (Richard Marx, Air Supply, Michael Jackson, Winger, etc.). And those kids that used to make fun of people who listened to NO, DM, etc. were idiots...in Chicago, for example...when house was all over the scene, many of these house music fans never made the connection that those cool mixes the DJs were spinning were singles/LPs/remixes of great music like New Order, Depeche Mode, PSB, etc.

(Gosh, I *hope* that all made sense!)

Originally posted by M. Domingo Well, it's really just a perspective thing. I think Benny came to an understanding of this when a similar conversation occured on another thread. If I remember correctly, it had to do with how the songs from Brotherhood didn't click with him so well as he was so used to hearing them live the way N.O. were performing those tracks live *before* the album's release. All of you folks in the UK have been fortunate enough to have seen/heard classic NO/JD songs evolve from stage to record/CD, while us Americans can only get mainly albums and singles (this is also somewhat-related to my mini-rant in the "Is Retro worth it?" thread) that were released on college (and some high school) radio. Remember the American film "Pretty In Pink"? To us Americans, having a movie like that with a lot of cool music was like getting a really early Christmas present. And even though the college radio stations were playing NO, DM, PSB, UV, etc., they tended to play only the mainstream hits (hence why there was a period where I was tired of hearing "Blue Monday" because the friggin' radio stations would play ONLY that track!). I could remember when I would call my favorite college radio stations and request a non-single NO track, and wait a couple of hours only to hear BM or BLT for the 20th time!

So any way, as I realized with that rant over "Retro" and Mr. Disco's perspective, where you are is a factor of what you want---and don't want---to listen to, and what you may have to pay to get what you want (or don't want!). :(

The whole availability issue of music in general is a double-edged sword. Record companies and artists want to promote their music to places and demographic that are proven to be full of fans, while at the same time they never are fully aware of the actual fan base that MIGHT exist in a particular geographical area (and in effect, neglect some potential areas full of new fans). So while NO were performing a little song known as "Temptation" on stage for the first time to UK audiences, the (future, potential) American fan-base is exposed to Richard Marx, Air Supply, and Winger on the radio (the same is also said of other countries where the market for new music has similar problems in promotion and distribution). :p

So what the American NO/JD fans are saying is that all the cool, different, "underground" music was lumped together. Not because we thought they sounded the same, but because they WEREN'T the poppy crap blasted constantly on mainstream radio (Richard Marx, Air Supply, Michael Jackson, Winger, etc.). And those kids that used to make fun of people who listened to NO, DM, etc. were idiots...in Chicago, for example...when house was all over the scene, many of these house music fans never made the connection that those cool mixes the DJs were spinning were singles/LPs/remixes of great music like New Order, Depeche Mode, PSB, etc.

(Gosh, I *hope* that all made sense!)

And despite the success of Regret, Crystal couldn't get played on the radio here.

Originally posted by Mickey Way Its funny how things evolve. I was brought up in a provincial Midlands town which did have a rather cracking 'alternative' night throughout the 80's until the onset of Acid House.Here you would hear the Smiths, the Sisters of Mercy and any manner of Goth shite, early Rolling Stones and whatever was in the top 10 of the Indie Charts as published by the NME at the time. JD was very rarely played but if you hassled the DJ enough we would get Temptation, Everythings Gone Green, Ceremony. Funnily enough these songs used to clear the dancefloor and leave about 10-20 of us having a mosh on the dance floor.New Order even seemed 'alternative' up the alternative night. This leads me back to my original point a few pages ago as we were about the only people who weren't kitted out in black and would even venture up the same nightspot on Fri and Sat to hear the latest terrible Top 40 offerings and Blue Monday if you were lucky. So New Order didn't seem to fit into either the alternative or mainstream scene at the time though they had a few biggish hits. I suspect that alot of UK NO fans in their mid-30's plus had similar experiences and thats why we cannot see whatsoever how NO can be linked in anyway to bands like Depeche, Cure, PSBs and Ultravox.

This is an interesting discussion. I blanche at the very thought of NO being mentioned in the same sentence as,ulp, Ultravox. I don't think I'd even think of Uvox in the same catagory as PSB and DM, the latter being very good indie electro pop, the former being very bad and pompous rock-pop. Personally I'd put the cure a bit closer to NO, simply cos I got into them both about the same time and because I saw them both as post-punk bands (I think I first heard the Cure on that wierd 'k-tel does punk' 20-of-another-kind compliation, grouped with the likes of GenX, Sham69 and the Jam).

But still, the Cure are more Southern and arty and NO would be better grouped with other blunt northerner bands like Echo, the Fall etc.

In the US I guess it all goes in the catagory of 'stuff that Beavis would say sucked'.

Originally posted by 404 error > Originally posted by Mickey Way> Its funny how things evolve. I was brought up in a provincial Midlands town which did have a rather cracking 'alternative' night throughout the 80's until the onset of Acid House.> > Here you would hear the Smiths, the Sisters of Mercy and any manner of Goth shite, early Rolling Stones and whatever was in the top 10 of the Indie Charts as published by the NME at the time. JD was very rarely played but if you hassled the DJ enough we would get Temptation, Everythings Gone Green, Ceremony. Funnily enough these songs used to clear the dancefloor and leave about 10-20 of us having a mosh on the dance floor.> > New Order even seemed 'alternative' up the alternative night. This leads me back to my original point a few pages ago as we were about the only people who weren't kitted out in black and would even venture up the same nightspot on Fri and Sat to hear the latest terrible Top 40 offerings and Blue Monday if you were lucky. So New Order didn't seem to fit into either the alternative or mainstream scene at the time though they had a few biggish hits. > > I suspect that alot of UK NO fans in their mid-30's plus had similar experiences and thats why we cannot see whatsoever how NO can be linked in anyway to bands like Depeche, Cure, PSBs and Ultravox.

This is an interesting discussion. I blanche at the very thought of NO being mentioned in the same sentence as,ulp, Ultravox. I don't think I'd even think of Uvox in the same catagory as PSB and DM, the latter being very good indie electro pop, the former being very bad and pompous rock-pop. Personally I'd put the cure a bit closer to NO, simply cos I got into them both about the same time and because I saw them both as post-punk bands (I think I first heard the Cure on that wierd 'k-tel does punk' 20-of-another-kind compliation, grouped with the likes of GenX, Sham69 and the Jam).

But still, the Cure are more Southern and arty and NO would be better grouped with other blunt northerner bands like Echo, the Fall etc.

In the US I guess it all goes in the catagory of 'stuff that Beavis would say sucked'.

Interestingly enough, The Fall never was mentioned to me EVER during the whole underground music scene when I was in grade school and high school - 1980 - 1987. I did not ever hear the name "The Fall" until I came to this site. I have been around people who never really rested with the pop masses, staying on the fringes of music of the time. I mever heard anyone ever mention The Fall. Now I come to find out that they are one of the best bands ever? I still have never heard a single song by them. What do they sound like and what would be a great CD to start with?

I think the first time I saw the name "The Fall" was the first time I picked up a copy of a Peel Sessions LP while I was still shopping at the infamous Wax Trax! Records store while it was still on Lincoln/Fullerton in Chicago. A TON of bands on that older Peel Sessions label that I hadn't heard about! Honestly (and this is where I am anticipating thrown tomatoes), I haven't heard much of them for the same reason that NO, UV, etc. haven't had too much airplay (other than college radio). Come to think of it, I haven't heard much Ultravox either for the same reason(s)!

So, how would you UK lads describe the sound of The Fall to the few of us uneducated American NO/JD fans? Seriously.

Originally posted by M. Domingo I think the first time I saw the name "The Fall" was the first time I picked up a copy of a Peel Sessions LP while I was still shopping at the infamous Wax Trax! Records store while it was still on Lincoln/Fullerton in Chicago. A TON of bands on that older Peel Sessions label that I hadn't heard about! Honestly (and this is where I am anticipating thrown tomatoes), I haven't heard much of them for the same reason that NO, UV, etc. haven't had too much airplay (other than college radio). Come to think of it, I haven't heard much Ultravox either for the same reason(s)!So, how would you UK lads describe the sound of The Fall to the few of us uneducated American NO/JD fans? Seriously.

Please UK'ers respond to the above questions. Save us Americans from our apparent lack of musical fortitude... or will we forever be lost making comparisons from Ultravox to New Order and from there to Duran Duran... from there it can only get worse... Yaz? Nena? Soft Cell? Don't make me mention any others.

Some really interesting stuff in this thread...good read.

Others commented on how some members seem to feel a need to bash successful groups like The Cure, Depeche Mode, et al., so I won't spend too much time on that.

What's funny to me is I started reading this post expecting to be pointed toward NO imitators of which I might never have heard. "Here today-gone tomorrow" kind of groups that were doing their best to make music in the spirit of one of their favorite bands...you know, the kind of music a lot of us might make if given the chance.

Anyway, a group that I thought ripped NO off in a major way was Boxcar...the lead singer even sounds like he's trying to imitate Bernard. Big songs were "Freemason" and "Insect." Still, i enjoyed Vertigo, the one album I bought. Listening to it now is hilarious cuz the sound is dated, and you know that can be cool sometimes.

Nettwerk/Robert Racic produced Boxcar and they were compared to PSB and OMD, but I always thought they were paying a lot of homage to NO. Don't know if you can get the tracks off the Net or through Kazaa.

Any other imitators? Let's stay away from talking about groups that scored big on their own, and concentrate on stuff alot of us might not have heard.