Joy Division in the 2000

They would be called Depchce Mode :evil:

"Love Will Tear Us Apart" would still have been a hit and would still be widely considered as being a "classic" more than twenty years after its release. Joy Division would have carried on recording and touring for a few more years but after the high-point of LWTUA the law of diminishing returns would have begun to take effect and their subsequent releases would not have been as good as their earlier work (although their fans would have continued to buy them). They would have had some success in America but they would never have made it beyond "cult" status there.

Barney, Hooky, Steve and members of the band's touring party would still have visited America's most fashionable and innovative clubs, the three band members would have wanted to make music that was more electronic-based and dance-orientated and the touring party's idea of building a similar club in Manchester would still have been considered, approved and seen through to completion (and probably with less difficulty because the loss-making "Blue Monday" wouldn't have been made yet). Ian would not have liked those ideas much and wouldn't have been able to write lyrics which he liked and which suited the music. The others would have carried on with their ideas regardless (with Barney possibly trying to take over the role of lyricist and frontman) and Ian would have left the band by 1984 at the latest.

From there on the New Order story would have developed in pretty much the same way that it did after Ian's death albeit starting a few years later (so they wouldn't have made Blue Monday until something like 1987). Ian may have tried to form another less-democratic band but if he had it would have been perceived as an inferior version of Joy Division and a poor relation to The Smiths. Ian would then have left the music business to become an author, would have had considerable critical and commercial success and at least one of his books would have been made into an arthouse film (in which he may have played a cameo role, after which he would have realised he didn't like acting). By the 1990's he would have become one of Britain's foremost writers and thinkers, appearing regularly on "Question Time" and arts programmes and writing a column for a broadsheet newspaper. He would have rejected any requests to reform Joy Division because he was more interested in creating new works than trying to cash in on his past.

I never understood why most people seem to think Ian wouldn't approve NO's dance/electronic orientation. I beg to differ on this one. Of course I'm not pretending to guess what JD would have become, but it was Ian who first introduced the music of Kraftwerk to the other band members. All that and I'm pretty sure JD didn't actually use MORE sinths for just two reasons: money problems and technical difficulties (computer technology was at its first stages then!)

Well the surviving 3 core members of Joy Division give the best example of what would have happened if Ian were still alive it's not like they were in that band against their will. So they continued without the singer and brought in Gillian. Both these changes manifested themsleves in a more commercial direction for the group. So take them away and what are you left with, the darker and more uncommercial sound would have prevailed and I don't think they'd have ever written the same songs. They would certainly have bought synthesizers and they were about to become a lot more succesful anyway so it's fair to assume they'd be at least as well known as New Order. Perhaps 4 or 5 of the first songs New Order wrote are a key to the future direction. Ceremony being the most obvious one. From 1982 onwards would be the cut off from leaving Movement to the future with PCL. showing a significant break from the past. I don't doubt that what we missed by losing Ian and gaining Gillian would have been some of the greatest music ever, as that was what we got up until that point. I don't beleive the band would ever have been huge in a U2 way. And I doubt they'd have lasted as long anyway, If Ian was willing to leave it all behind when he did chances are he'd be a lot less willing to remain in the band even if he chose to carry on living. I think he'd have ducked the spotlight in anything else he did akin to what J.D. Salinger did.

Mr. Encyclopedia here, so sorry to intervene: "Ceremony" is NOT "one of the first songs written by NO". In fact, it was, with "In a lonely place", one of the LAST TWO songs JD wrote!

I was aware of that Jorge I was trying to emphasise it as obvious in that it provides a perfect link between the two bands, Barney singing a song that is more well known for his vocal and apperently most of what Ian had written was dificult to decipher from the demo tapes so again it's half New Order half Joy Division at the cross-over point.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by The Hacienda must be (re)Built They would be called Depchce Mode :evil:

Or U2?

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

RED CARD!!!!!!!! RED CARD!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Hank Wiseass©
I was aware of that Jorge I was trying to emphasise it as obvious in that it provides a perfect link between the two bands, Barney singing a song that is more well known for his vocal and apperently most of what Ian had written was dificult to decipher from the demo tapes so again it's half New Order half Joy Division at the cross-over point.

You're forgiven then!

i read that barney was kinda of a control freak in the studio in the 80s...i don't think that would have meshed well with ian, cuz i think there's a bit of a control freak in him (though i'm not sure). i think that without the depression and eplipsy, ian would develope a bit of an ego with the eventual success the group would receive and piss off the other members...especially barney. and if they ever dared ventured the hacienda thing with tony wilson and if the trouble with factory records were still the same...i'd say the group would have broken up for good around the late 80s or early 90s and never reunite. ian ventures a solo career with a few good albums and then withers away into obscurity...like morrissey:\puke: god, i hate morrissey.

Jorge, I take your point about Ian's interest in electronic music and I don't intend to dispute any aspect of the real JD story because I'm much more into NO than JD and when JD were together I knew little or nothing about them because I was quite young (I would had been in infants or junior school) and was only just getting into any music at all. The points I was trying to make were that to me the main difference between JD's music and NO's music is that JD were more concerned with communicating ideas and feelings(and especially through Ian's lyrics) whilst NO were more concerned with creating or recreating a sound or style and that if the other three had presented Ian with a hardcore dance track like Blue Monday or Confusion he wouldn't have been able to write lyrics that both satisfied his desire to communicate ideas and fitted the music.

Nic, JD were a cult band before Ian's death and after it, despite LWTUA being a big hit, because they didn't have a broad fanbase that included people of all ages and races. Nirvana were a cult band but Nevermind's take on power-pop appealed to so many people outside the grunge scene (such as myself who liked it because it struck me as heavy metal with the crap bits taken out) that they became what will probably always be the biggest cult band the world has seen. However, a band can be a "cult" band without any of the members committing suicide, dying of a drugs overdose or being killed in a crash: The Flaming Lips are the cult band of the moment, Radiohead are the cult band who touched a raw nerve in a lot of nervous people in the 1990's, The Pixies were the cult band who effectively invented grunge and who Kurt Cobain, Thom Yorke and others loved and tried to copy, The Smiths were a cult band who touched a raw nerve in a lot of young English men, R.E.M were a cult American band probably until "Losing My Religion" became a world-wide hit, The Sex Pistols were a cult band who became famous because they attacked the British establishment head on during the Silver Jubilee and The Velvet Underground were probably one of the earliest cult bands. "Cult" bands don't try to become successful: if they become successful it's usually because the more people get to hear their music the more people realise how great their music is.

This is a VERY interesting topic for discussion, so full marks for Spotnick for instigating it - I've seen some well-argued theories here from various posters - namely Fingers, Jorge and Hank, and it's fascinating indeed to ponder what might well have been had Ian not succumbed to the emotional turmoil that tore his life apart with such tragic consequences....

To begin with, most people now accept that the "electronics" part of it would have remained - and continue to develop - as Ian himself would have been party to the band's evolution from punk rockers to a more sleek, cool (Germanic influenced?) European sound that matched his heartfelt and often alienated lyrical musings. Most likely of all would be the complete divergence of New Order's lyrical themes from those of Joy Division from 1983 onwards. This period marked New Order (as they became) moving noticeably further away from the cold subconsciously pseudo-Curtis wordplay that marred much of their first album and singles (e.g. "Procession") and into lighter, less forced and contrived, themes such as that witnessed on "Temptation". Somehow it's highly improbable that Ian Curtis would have written a lyric like this one ("Up down turn around, please don't let me hit the ground!") had he survived to see Joy Division into 1982.... I can't see it meself!! :D So, New Order had no choice but to leave their past behind - and in so doing became to all intents and purposes a "new" band - despite having three of the four original members. They simply couldn't carry on forever walking in Ian's shadow.....so they didn't. A change - or stylistic shift - was inevitable.

As for the band's sound.... it's probable that Joy Division 1982-1985 may have sounded pretty much like New Order would have done - although like I said earlier, with less of the "lightness" and more emphasis on deeper moodier textures. One cannot help but sense that, had he survived to make another JD album, it would sound even darker and more majestic and stately than "Closer" - with richer instrumentation (synths/ electronics) and a more extreme sonic palette - that is to say, an even more emotional and physically demanding musical statement.

Perhaps by this point (after the third studio album), one can speculate that Ian may have felt that the band had pushed their sound as far as it could go. Certainly when you listen to "Technique" - probably the surviving band's "happiest" sounding album (if you don't count "Get Ready" that is), it's hard to imagine Ian Curtis being part of THAT record either in soul or spirit. It just isn't right. Joy Division may well have split up before 1986's "Brotherhood" at this rate, even though much of this album (and the preceding "Low Life" of course) owes a lot of its sheer physicality to prime period JD at its best.

Furthermore, if Joy Division DID - against all the odds - survive and prosper to this day, I reckon they might sound pretty similar to bands like Death In Vegas (circa their "Contino Sessions" album - dark, brooding, gothic and electronic - but still with an undeniably dance undercurrent) more than all the imitators they spawned in their wake.

But something still nags away at me and suggests that Ian would most definitely have called it a day on the band (after the "third" album) well before the mid 1980s - it would already appear that he's just not cut out for this kind of "longevity / established band" lark.....

Hubert, your argument is far more impressive than mine, mostly because after I got into NO and had bought a lot of their releases I bought all the JD releases but never really got into them in the same way so I'm no expert on their work. However, we both come to the conclusion that Ian would have left Joy Division in the early 1980's. I came to that conclusion because whilst I know relatively little about JD and probably a bit more about Ian what seems clear to me is that Ian Curtis made music for, for want of a better phrase, the right reasons.

I think it's almost certain that Ian didn't make music in order to become rich or famous because if that was what he wanted to do he would have made music that was much more commercial than JD. I suspect Ian didn't make music so that he could live the life of a musician because it isn't always about making and playing music: if you're unsuccessful, unlucky or unhappy you end up arguing at tense meetings with your record company, managers or fellow band members and even if you achieve a certain level of success the travelling and dislocation involved in touring is tiring and stressful. I believe that Ian made music because he wanted to communicate with people, either to express how he felt or what he thought or to prove to the people who listened to his music that they weren't the only people who thought or felt that way. If that is the case even though I don't listen to any of the JD releases I own very often I don't feel that I've been cheated because even though I'm not a massive fan of the music I believe that what Ian wrote and sang came from his heart and soul (pun intended) and wasn't just made to make money or make him famous.

So regardless of how he left JD (either the way he did or the way we predict that he would have done if he hadn't killed himself) if he left because he felt that he didn't have anything else to say or because he didn't want to go through the motions of making music just to make money we can't criticise his motives because he left because he didn't want to cheat anyone.

Aye, good points all, Fingers, and somethin' else in the back of my mind says that if Ian WAS still around today I'm sure he'd be mortified (pun NOT intended) at the prospect of New Order still surviving against the odds to this day and bringing out largely underwhelming records - in the face of general apathy and indifference from the music buying masses at large (I say this cos apart from the loyal fans, who the feck else "buys" New Order these days?) - simply cos they've settled into this "comfortable" niche in their collective middle age.

I strongly suspect that Ian would have either stepped down from this "frontman in a band" role and concentrated on - as you put it - other means of communication and artistic expression or gone the other way and tried to assert HIS control over the way the band would evolve - inevitably leading to friction and antagonism as differences (personal, artistic or whatever) between band members inevitably clashed - precipitating a messy demise to the band, something that probably would have happened anyway even if he did survive beyond his 23 meagre years.

By the way - good to see you back here Fingers - not heard much from you for a while - have you not been posting on Martian's forum lately? Why not pop over there sometime? I post there too on occasions and it seems a few regulars from here have set up camp there as well! It's quite mad over there with all the American brigade posting on it!

The link ( I hope this is right) is http://pub57.ezboard.com/fneworderforumfrm1

See ya there!

If you like Joy Division you probably wouldn't be human if you didn't wonder what they would have done if Ian hadn't killed himself, especially since when he did they were recording "Love Will Tear Us Apart" (am I right in thinking that when Ian killed himself it wasn't completely finished and that Tony Wilson used state-of-the-art technology to turn the parts they had recorded into the finished article? I have heard that story at least once). With Nirvana the sense of loss is even more marked because their swansong was the MTV Unplugged TV show and album (which I think is Nirvana's best album - "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" sends shivers down even my spine) which were a radical departure from what they had done before and a tantalising glimpse of what could have been.

However (he says wandering even further off-topic) I think that when a great band splits before their achieve their full artistic potential that is easier to take than when a brilliant band carries on after they should really have called it a day. For starters consider The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. If The Beatles hadn't fallen out with each other over non-musical matters (one story I've heard is that they finally broke up after an argument over a biscuit) and had stayed together for another 10, 20 or 30 years they may have made more classic albums or they may have become a shadow of their former selves. However, if The Rolling Stones had broken up in the 1970's or, at the very latest, after "Undercover" (which I believe is widely accepted as the last good Stones album) when we think of them would we think of how good they were rather than how much money they must be making from their latest tour? If The Verve hadn't split who knows what they could have done after "Urban Hymns" but if Oasis had split after "(What's The Story) Morning Glory?" would we have missed much? Liam Gallagher thinks Oasis have got another great studio album in them but if they have why have they released three shit ones in a row? The La's have become a legend in their own over-long lunch break but Suede have become a laughing stock since the talented and ambitious one left. Is "always leave them wanting more" one of the laws of music?

So is Hubert right when he says that if Ian was still alive today he would be mortified at the sight of a middle-aged New Order? What would he have thought of someone else singing the lyrics he wrote (and adding whooping sounds)? Or would he have not minded as long as people, and especially a younger generation of fans who never got to see JD in their prime, heard what he wanted people to hear? And here's another train of thought for you to drive if you want: if Ian had lived, left New Order in the early 1980's and tried to continue making music were there any other bands or musicians around at the time he could and would have joined or worked with? James fronted by Ian Curtis? An Ian Curtis solo album produced by David Bowie? Ian Curtis collaborating with Kraftwerk???

P.S. Hubert, thanks for the kind words and the smilies (I haven't learned how to do them yet and I'm too tired to learn tonight so please try to imagine there is a suitable smilie at the end of this post). I've been in a lurking mood (well, I always am but more so than usual recently) and still am but recently I've seen a couple of threads I thought I could add something to. If the mood lifts I will post more here and on more sites but the wind's not blowing in the right direction or anywhere near hard enough. To anyone who's going to the Manc gig I hope it's a great one and you all enjoy yourselves before, during and after.

P.P.S. That's how you do it!!! :shy:

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JOY DIVISION would have recorded CEREMONY it would have became a number one hit IAN CURTIS would then leave the band not dealing well with his new found fame and open that book shop I keep hearing about

he would later release an experimental album based around Adolf Hitler with Mark E Smith

Just got an image of Ian Curtis and Mark E Smith doin Springtime for Hitler, with Mel Brooks in The Producers. Alernative history can throw some weird shapes up

Originally posted by Garymac Just got an image of Ian Curtis and Mark E Smith doin Springtime for Hitler, with Mel Brooks in The Producers.Alernative history can throw some weird shapes up

They would have become Depeche Mode

When they became New Order after Ian's death it seems like it was a new head of steam for them. There are not too many groups that are together today from the mid/late seventies, and if they are, they aren't making a lot of new music.

Tough call though, it would be interesting to hear what Joy Division would sound like in the present day if Ian was still alive and the group had been together.

If Ian had not commited suicide and left the band, New Order would have never been.

If Ian were still alive, they would be a death-metal/rap-rock combo, with Gillian flipping the mad discs on the turn-table and scratching up some mad vinyl