Greatness Of Joy Division

I was just wondering of what rock bands since Joy Division, have come close to how brilliant or unique they were. Up to now i've come up with Radiohead and The Pixies. What rock bands since J.D. do you think are as influetial as they were?

...unique?

Definitely "The Cure"

Yeah, The Cure are up there, brilliant. I meant to say New Order aswell but sometimes when I say J.D., I mean J.D./N.O.

yeah, the smiths...but god, that morrissey dude annoys me...

Pink Floyd! (oh wait, they came BEFORE JD...)

Really, there are very few acts that kind of seem as groundbreaking or unique (at least these days). I'd say Radiohead is the most direct benficiary of JD's trailblazing, with Doves a second (though with not the same commercial impact).

For starters there's The Smiths, not so much for their sound but for Morrissey's lyrics which combined insight, foresight (listen to the lyrics of "Panic", "Paint A Vulgar Picture" or "Sweet And Tender Hooligan" and try to remember that they were written at least fifteen years ago), wit and tenderness. Whilst many bands may have been inspired by The Smiths the only lyricist who has come close to matching Morrissey is Jarvis Cocker.

Then there's R.E.M. because when they're at their worst (such as on "Reveal", a very disappointing album) they're still good and when they're at their best (such as on "Out Of Time" and "Automatic For The People") they're one of the best bands ever. U2 - the best band in the world? Biggest probably but the best? Maybe for a while around the time of "The Joshua Tree" but never since.

The Manic Street Preachers merit a mention for infiltrating the mainstream with powerful music and then subverting it with equally powerful lyrics and for James Dean Bradfield, the best male singer of his generation.

I could add New Order, Public Enemy, Primal Scream, Nirvana, Massive Attack, Radiohead and Pulp but after that I'd be struggling.

I think that the original quest was for bands that were "brilliant or unique" but also "groundbreaking". I agree with most that have been mentioned, especially Smiths, Husker Du, Radiohead, Pixies and I would add Sonic Youth and maybe, just maybe Pavement.

I do not think that Cure or U2 are that relevant or unique. They have not created anything new but rather have repackaged and cleverly and very earnestly marketed findings from other groups (NO being the target of choice for The Cure).

As for the Manic Street Preachers I thought that they had been elected last year in this same forum one of the worst bands ever ex aequo with The Wings.

Don´t forget The Smashing Pumpkins! For me, that´s the best band ever.

Originally posted by Fingers For starters there's The Smiths, not so much for their sound but for Morrissey's lyrics which combined insight, foresight (listen to the lyrics of "Panic", "Paint A Vulgar Picture" or "Sweet And Tender Hooligan" and try to remember that they were written at least fifteen years ago), wit and tenderness.

... musically as accomplished as lyrically. Johnny Marr especially unique in his ability to craft original melodies and song structures seemingly with consummate ease. How many Smiths songs feature the traditional 'guitar solo'?, very few, as the band can create a stomping track without resorting to past well trodden ground.

'Last Night I Dreamt Some Rabbit Loved Me', 'This Charming Mouse', 'Please, Please, Please, Let Me Get What is Expected of My Budgie' and so many others - all paving fresh new musical territory. Unique singer in Morrisey, unique musician in Johnny Marr, with professional backing from Mick and Ken ... (Dave?). Possibly the greatest rock combo in the last 20 years next to JD and NO.

Other bands you have put your finger on I'd also agree with. Oasis should not be discounted, regardless of whether or not their songs are mock-Beatles trade-offs ... this is incidental, they have penned many blistering songs that put a new life into music at a time (1994) when pop disco pap was stifling the music industry. That in itself is a worthy effort. They did bring to the attention of many the fact that a song is usually better when written purposefully rather than a verse and chorus repeat-until-fade (i.e. the top 40).

R.E.M. for me Smiths a good choice, along with Nirvana

FUGAZI! (but Husker Du were brilliant too) CTB

As a relatively new member of NOOL I missed last year's election of the Manic Street Preachers as one of the worst bands ever but if I had been around I would have opposed their nomination because there are many bands more worthy of the title such as the mind-boggingly over-rated Embrace, the mind-numbingly dull Travis and the spirit-crushingly vacuous Stereophonics, to name just three. The MSP's began promisingly but by the time of "The Holy Bible" they were disappearing up their own arses because Richey was determined to make the pseudo-intellectual sloganeering he passed off as lyrics as shocking and confrontational as possible. The band that re-emerged after Richey's disappearance was far better than the old MSP's ever were and, as I hinted earlier, got songs with meaningful lyrics on to daytime radio, music TV and into the upper reaches of the charts (a song about working-class fatalism to number 2, a song about the Spanish Civil War to number 1, a song about the police's role in the Hillsborough disaster on a hit album). If The Clash hadn't fallen apart they may have done what the Manics have done and done it even better but in their absence the Manic Street Preachers have done a very good job of trying to finish the job The Clash started.

P.S. Can anyone name a male singer who has come on to the music scene in the last 25 years who is better than James Dean Bradfield?

Gareth Gates?

David Hasslehof?

There's a lot of really good suggestions here. I would certainly add my support to a vote for Husker Du, as without their vision and ability to switch from orthodox hardcore (can there be such a thing ?) to pop songs and to evolve the way that Bob and Grant eventually did, there would have been no Nirvana, no Pixies.........

Joy Division wouldn't have been original had it not been for Martin Hannett, but New Order have been one of the most original bands around for many years. They needed to be shown how to be original, and once they had, the creative genius that is Barney took over and reinvented much of popular music.

The Smiths were original up to a point, but it was a style that tired quickly, the jangly guitars and quasi-intelligent lyrics. Look at the Wedding Present !!

Radiohead have evolved into something that nobody else has seen, but even they are really a jazz experimentation unit at heart.

I'm not sure that the Manic Street Preachers could ever be classed as original. James is a good singer, but the songs are comprised of other people's riffs and often embarrassing sixth-form poetry.

Radiohead are definetly original. Sure there are elements of jazz on Kid A and Amnesiac, but theres also elements of rock, techno and god knows what else. Radiohead are up there with the most inovative bands ever along with Joy Division/New Order, Beatles, Floyd and other bands. Also, The Bends and O.K. Computer just dont sound jazzy at all because they're great experimental rock albums.

Originally posted by Fingers As a relatively new member of NOOL I missed last year's election of the Manic Street Preachers as one of the worst bands ever but if I had been around I would have opposed their nomination because there are many bands more worthy of the title such as the mind-boggingly over-rated Embrace, the mind-numbingly dull Travis and the spirit-crushingly vacuous Stereophonics, to name just three. The MSP's began promisingly but by the time of "The Holy Bible" they were disappearing up their own arses because Richey was determined to make the pseudo-intellectual sloganeering he passed off as lyrics as shocking and confrontational as possible. The band that re-emerged after Richey's disappearance was far better than the old MSP's ever were and, as I hinted earlier, got songs with meaningful lyrics on to daytime radio, music TV and into the upper reaches of the charts (a song about working-class fatalism to number 2, a song about the Spanish Civil War to number 1, a song about the police's role in the Hillsborough disaster on a hit album). If The Clash hadn't fallen apart they may have done what the Manics have done and done it even better but in their absence the Manic Street Preachers have done a very good job of trying to finish the job The Clash started.P.S. Can anyone name a male singer who has come on to the music scene in the last 25 years who is better than James Dean Bradfield?

Fingers, I think that you´ve missed the point here, your arguments for supporting MSP are:

1. They are better than Embrace or Travis.

Granted but so are most bands in the UK and that includes the Cream Bandits.

2. They are better than they used to be with Richie.

Debatable but not very weighty, is it?

3. They have meaningful lyrics.

Well, not wanting to get into their politics (and I may well take exception to their take on the Spanish Civil War, you understand that), their rhymes are often trite and almost always vacuous. Never witty, never clever, not a single touching moment. Poetry by numbers more like.

4. As for Bradfield's singing my vote goes everytime to David Hasselhof too (and even the car most days).

But the main point is that even conceding all of your previous arguments that would not put MSP in the same level as the other groups mentioned: JD/NO, Husker Du, Sonic Youth, Smiths, Pixies they all found rock music stale and moribund, performed heart surgery on it and took it to new levels. IMO the sorry state of popular music these days demands a new revolution more than ever (and believe you me it´s not coming from the Strokes! worthy as they are)

Budvar, I think you've missed my point. I defended the Manics because I believe that anyone who thinks that they are one of the worst bands ever is being extremely harsh on them and has missed or ignored a lot of worse bands, including some popular bands such as the three I picked out (although I don't think Embrace are as popular as their new label thinks they are). It's easy to knock the Manics and some of the things they, and particularly Richey and Nicky, did didn't help their cause. However, they are one of the best British bands of their era and are better than Oasis (who could have been one of the best bands ever but who blew their chance by releasing three piss-poor albums), Blur (who wrote some brilliant songs but never came across as being genuine or passionate) and Suede (who made two great albums but became a parody of themselves after Bernard left).

Whilst the Manics aren't as good as some of the bands mentioned in this thread they are in the same league: they're in mid-table along with Primal Scream, not competing for the title like Radiohead but not in the battle to avoid relegation like Public Enemy. And whilst they didn't perform "heart surgery" on rock music like The Pixies the Manics did help it to start using its brain again after it suffered a bout of the horrible disease "heavy metal" again in the late 1980's. Popular music is in a sorry state at the moment and it does need a new revolution but I believe that revolution is more likely to happen if more new bands try to follow the example of the Manic Street Preachers rather than follow the example of those vain and lazy rip-off merchants The Strokes who are so over-rated it's frightening.

Originally posted by Fingers Whilst the Manics aren't as good as some of the bands mentioned in this thread they are in the same league: they're in mid-table along with Primal Scream, not competing for the title like Radiohead but not in the battle to avoid relegation like Public Enemy. And whilst they didn't perform "heart surgery" on rock music like The Pixies the Manics did help it to start using its brain again after it suffered a bout of the horrible disease "heavy metal" again in the late 1980's. Popular music is in a sorry state at the moment and it does need a new revolution but I believe that revolution is more likely to happen if more new bands try to follow the example of the Manic Street Preachers rather than follow the example of those vain and lazy rip-off merchants The Strokes who are so over-rated it's frightening.

Amen to that, Fingers!

BTW Some time ago someone posted in this forum that they had found a foot believed to belong to Richie, I have not followed the story, was it confirmed? I am not joking I think even The Times published it.

Also, nobody (I don't think) has mentioned 'The Jam Butties' yet or indeed Mr. Pauline Whelk Trainer.

Surely one of the better bands / individuals of the last 200 years.

Ocean Colour Brown (the poor mans Pauline Whelk Trainer) offered some interesting, if not utterly boring, mind numbing ditties in their time.

The Jesus and Mary Chain. question: did'nt they influence Stone Roses, Pixies, Dinasour Jr. and Sonic Youth? also:

The Cure Ministry vince clarke (mode, erasure, Yaz)

its my first ever post :) Kamar

Originally posted by kamar khan The Jesus and Mary Chain. question: did'nt they influence Stone Roses, Pixies, Dinasour Jr. and Sonic Youth? also:The CureMinistry vince clarke (mode, erasure, Yaz)its my first ever post :)Kamar

... that's no excuse for including Ministry and Dinosaur Jr.

Then again Mr. Huntsman you have to concede that Jesus & Mary Chain was very well spotted! I had nearly forgotten!

Welcome Kamar, make yourself comfy.

what about the lacklustre Echo and the Bunny Rabbits Budweiser? ... notably pegged alongside Jesus and his Chain Metal in the past. 'Bring on the Dancing Mules' a decent tune, as was 'Nothing Ever Lasts For Over a Minute' which they wrote about 130 years after their earlier gear when Ian McCulloch had a bouffant in excess of 100 yards tall.

Cabaret Volatile also a decent outfit. 'Drinking a Man's Gasolione' a rare treasure - influenced a great many digital musos also.

Has anyone mentioned Depeche Mode or is that out of bounds?