All Day Long and Angel Dust

Man, I think these two tracks really could have been classics were it not for the harsh production on Brotherhood.

I have a couple of bootleg recordings of how they were performed live - 2 from soundchecks, and 2 on the Chapter III bootleg. Due to the constraints of live performance, they used the same general bassline presets and drum machine sounds as Bizarre Love Triangle, instead of the sounds used on the studio versions, and they sound SO GOOD. They have the same energy as Bizarre Love Triangle live. The descending chord sequence in the chorus of All Day Long is about as good as anything else they ever wrote.

I wouldn't exactly say that the production on Brotherhood was harsh, but I do agree that Angel Dust is a good song.

I agree completely. How did they screw up Brotherhood so badly? I've got the original vinyl in great condition. It should should fantastic, but 75% of the songs sound like shit when you turn them up. Especially As It Is When It Was. Great lyrics, great melodies, but... the production kills it.

RandLor wrote: How did they screw up Brotherhood so badly?

Quoting Stephen Morris from the liner notes to the recent reissue:

"There's too much on it," he reckons. "It's very digital sounding. we'd bought this thing called the Transdynamic, which nobody quite knew how to work, but it made everything sound really f*cking hard! So it took out all the dynamics - made it all go grrr (pulls psychotic face)."

For the record, Brotherhood is my favorite New Order album. Here's what I had to say about it last October when I picked up the 2-disc version. It was the first one I bought new at the time of its release, and I think the songs are fantastic, but they sound so much better live...

I like rusty & dirty sounds of Brotherhood.

Here are my observations on Brotherhood (do as you wish with them).

It came out a year after low-life and seems a very rushed affair. As SOTN wasnt on the original pressing only BLZ sounds like they spent any real are, attention and time on it. The rest sound either like demos or not properly produced. The EQ is awful, one guitar riff at end of AIWWIW sounds like its overcooked, the vocals badly need de-essing and are full of pops. Honestly, Im sure it was mixed in a day (maybe even ruined in a day:\ohwell: ).

The bass is to loud on Way Of Life, the acoustic guitar used on tracks are too low in the mix. And Every Second Count sums up the lacking in quality production.

Its a real shame as they could have all been decent songs and it ruins the listening experience for me. To go back to the original poster, I agree, the production is too harsh.

It may be no surprise to anyone reading this that Technique is my favourite NO album. It is the complete opposite to Brotherhood. It has a producer who knows what he's doing and gets the perfect blend of instrumemts just right. And Barney really nails it lyrically and vocalling. The songs seem so effortless and lush. And, apart from Fine Time, the tracks fit together so well.

Right, thats my 2 bobs worth rant over

The overall,general consensus,& not just over 50%,more like 90%,is that Brotherhoods' only let down is the production(& maybe Every Little Counts & SOTN,which I love personally).It is it's only flaw.With the exception of BLT,which is just about perfect,Weirdo & All Day Long,the rest are all much better live.Now that Steve has disclosed what we all felt,it's even more of a massive shame

I don't see what's so wrong with the production on All Day Long, the spare sound suits the vocals well IMO. I agree that Angel Dust sounds muddy, does the Evil Dust mix remedy that at all?

poorshakes wrote: I don't see what's so wrong with the production on All Day Long, the spare sound suits the vocals well IMO. I agree that Angel Dust sounds muddy, does the Evil Dust mix remedy that at all?

I actually do like Angel Dust a lot, has ever been played live in a such a storming version that it blew u guys/girls of ur feet? if so, which gig was this?

Just curious

Martijn wrote:

poorshakes wrote: I don't see what's so wrong with the production on All Day Long, the spare sound suits the vocals well IMO. I agree that Angel Dust sounds muddy, does the Evil Dust mix remedy that at all?

I actually do like Angel Dust a lot, has ever been played live in a such a storming version that it blew u guys/girls of ur feet? if so, which gig was this?

Just curious

1987.02.04 The Galaxy Auckland New Zealand

imo, my favourite version by far!

Martijn wrote: I actually do like Angel Dust a lot, has ever been played live in a such a storming version that it blew u guys/girls of ur feet? if so, which gig was this?

Just curious

I have a version from a soundcheck in '86. The venue was empty, so the recording is VERY clear. All that's missing is Hooky's bass, and Bernard interjects little comments about adjusting levels in the monitors throughout the vocals, but it gives you a great example of how it differed live than on record.

just listened to this particular recording and it is really good. the studio version is great as well, the bit at the end is magical!

the beginning of angel dust always put me off but other than that its a decent track.

All Day Long was actually one of me favourites on Brotherhood. Crystal clear lush synth cascades mix well with the beats , "Wagnerian" guitar and swelling keyboards.

I could see how Angel Dust could have been done better. Brought out some of its elements in a better production.

kel wrote: The overall,general consensus,& not just over 50%,more like 90%,is that Brotherhoods' only let down is the production(& maybe Every Little Counts & SOTN,which I love personally).It is it's only flaw.With the exception of BLT,which is just about perfect,Weirdo & All Day Long,the rest are all much better live.Now that Steve has disclosed what we all felt,it's even more of a massive shame

"Its only flaw is the production"? Hello, am I missing something here? The production and mixing is as important as the songs themselves. It is here where mistakes, panning, compression, EQing, volumes, overcooking can all be fixed. It is the difference between a good song and an excellent song.

Its like saying I had a Chinese last night and the only thing wrong was it was burnt

NO Regret wrote:

kel wrote: The overall,general consensus,& not just over 50%,more like 90%,is that Brotherhoods' only let down is the production(& maybe Every Little Counts & SOTN,which I love personally).It is it's only flaw.With the exception of BLT,which is just about perfect,Weirdo & All Day Long,the rest are all much better live.Now that Steve has disclosed what we all felt,it's even more of a massive shame

"Its only flaw is the production"? Hello, am I missing something here? The production and mixing is as important as the songs themselves. It is here where mistakes, panning, compression, EQing, volumes, overcooking can all be fixed. It is the difference between a good song and an excellent song.

Its like saying I had a Chinese last night and the only thing wrong was it was burnt

Hello? Am I missing something here? Like,your point? Isn't that what I just said? When I said 'production',I was actually referring to everything rather than going into minute detail and being a bit anal about it,not everyone on here will have the slightest clue of what you were going on about by going into drop-outs,panning etc..Plus,it's an OPINION,a VIEWPOINT,you know,what everyone is entitled to

i understood you, kel. NO regret is arguing semantics.

i think most understood you to say "the songs are great conceptually, even live, but were not produced properly in the studio" -

not sure why NO regret took issue with that. many of us here are involved in music production and work on a daily basis with the various processes that make up 'production' and i agree, something went wrong in that studio. many things, actually, from recording to mixing to mastering.

i love All Day Long tho, love how it turned out on the lp.

can anyone link me to a live version as mentioned in the OP of All Day Long and Angel Dust live circa 86??? I would love to hear them with the more BLT sound....

johnny wrote: All Day Long was actually one of me favourites on Brotherhood. Crystal clear lush synth cascades mix well with the beats , "Wagnerian" guitar and swelling keyboards.

I remembering agreeing with you on this one before. However, I don't know what "wagnerian" guitar means.

Brotherhood sounded rubbish on a regular system. It needs opening up in the way that only expensive hifi can, creating a vast soundscape. I've not stuck the vinyl on my Linn Sondek, but the CD is vastly improved on my Naim Audio CDX2.

kel wrote:

NO Regret wrote:

kel wrote: The overall,general consensus,& not just over 50%,more like 90%,is that Brotherhoods' only let down is the production(& maybe Every Little Counts & SOTN,which I love personally).It is it's only flaw.With the exception of BLT,which is just about perfect,Weirdo & All Day Long,the rest are all much better live.Now that Steve has disclosed what we all felt,it's even more of a massive shame

"Its only flaw is the production"? Hello, am I missing something here? The production and mixing is as important as the songs themselves. It is here where mistakes, panning, compression, EQing, volumes, overcooking can all be fixed. It is the difference between a good song and an excellent song.

Its like saying I had a Chinese last night and the only thing wrong was it was burnt

Hello? Am I missing something here? Like,your point? Isn't that what I just said? When I said 'production',I was actually referring to everything rather than going into minute detail and being a bit anal about it,not everyone on here will have the slightest clue of what you were going on about by going into drop-outs,panning etc..Plus,it's an OPINION,a VIEWPOINT,you know,what everyone is entitled to

Kel I wasnt trying to belittle your comment. Maybe I mis-interpretted it.

"only let down is the production(& maybe Every Little Counts & SOTN,which I love personally). "

Are you saying ESC and SOTN are a let down but you love them anyhow? Sorry I just didnt get your post.

And its only my opinion too. Wrong or right.

Buck Hill wrote:

johnny wrote: All Day Long was actually one of me favourites on Brotherhood. Crystal clear lush synth cascades mix well with the beats , "Wagnerian" guitar and swelling keyboards.

I remembering agreeing with you on this one before. However, I don't know what "wagnerian" guitar means.

heh heh , no, i just remember a review of Brotherhood describing Bernard's guitar on All Day Long as being Wagnerian. Thought that was a good description although i've no idea what Wagner sounds like. He was a classical music composer performer wasn't he? dunno

With all due respect to the opinions regarding sound quality, everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that it all starts with the song and the artist. Given the fact that most people listen to music in less than ideal acoustic environments, I think the argument of mix quality vs. the song itself is nonsense and only matters to those with more discerning ears. A proper mix only serves as a balancing act to connect the music to the listener. Those with more technical knowledge might argue that production is an essential element in bringing the music to life but to the average end listener it's transparent... they just want to turn up the volume and sing along.

good point Bentley. i agree, 90% of music listeners could care less, they just want to hum along and sing the lyrics.

but us 10% music nuts are cursed. we put headphones on and listen closely and notice all this stuff. the only upside to the curse is that when something is mixed and mastered and recorded just right, i like to think that i get more pleasure out of it than the 90% of fans who just want to hum along to their crappy ipod earbuds.

Tarbox23 wrote: good point Bentley. i agree, 90% of music listeners could care less, they just want to hum along and sing the lyrics.

but us 10% music nuts are cursed. we put headphones on and listen closely and notice all this stuff. the only upside to the curse is that when something is mixed and mastered and recorded just right, i like to think that i get more pleasure out of it than the 90% of fans who just want to hum along to their crappy ipod earbuds.

I totally agree with you Tarbox23. Otherwise artists might as well just have demos on their albums.

Nothing wrong with Brotherhood, soundwise. I still listen to it often and it sounds nice and punchy. It sounds like they knocked it all out in a few days, it has a real immediate and slapdash sound to it which was refreshing.

Bentley wrote: With all due respect to the opinions regarding sound quality, everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that it all starts with the song and the artist. Given the fact that most people listen to music in less than ideal acoustic environments, I think the argument of mix quality vs. the song itself is nonsense and only matters to those with more discerning ears. A proper mix only serves as a balancing act to connect the music to the listener. Those with more technical knowledge might argue that production is an essential element in bringing the music to life but to the average end listener it's transparent... they just want to turn up the volume and sing along.

I would agree on most albums, but Brotherhood's issues are so blatent that they affect everyone.... except maybe the deaf, but they could probably feel the bad production.

Why haven't they tried to remix this album when remastering it, in order to get the sounds out better?

NO Regret wrote:

kel wrote:

NO Regret wrote:

kel wrote: The overall,general consensus,& not just over 50%,more like 90%,is that Brotherhoods' only let down is the production(& maybe Every Little Counts & SOTN,which I love personally).It is it's only flaw.With the exception of BLT,which is just about perfect,Weirdo & All Day Long,the rest are all much better live.Now that Steve has disclosed what we all felt,it's even more of a massive shame

"Its only flaw is the production"? Hello, am I missing something here? The production and mixing is as important as the songs themselves. It is here where mistakes, panning, compression, EQing, volumes, overcooking can all be fixed. It is the difference between a good song and an excellent song.

Its like saying I had a Chinese last night and the only thing wrong was it was burnt

Hello? Am I missing something here? Like,your point? Isn't that what I just said? When I said 'production',I was actually referring to everything rather than going into minute detail and being a bit anal about it,not everyone on here will have the slightest clue of what you were going on about by going into drop-outs,panning etc..Plus,it's an OPINION,a VIEWPOINT,you know,what everyone is entitled to

Kel I wasnt trying to belittle your comment. Maybe I mis-interpretted it.

"only let down is the production(& maybe Every Little Counts & SOTN,which I love personally). "

Are you saying ESC and SOTN are a let down but you love them anyhow? Sorry I just didnt get your post.

And its only my opinion too. Wrong or right.

Fair enough

What I meant was that,IMO,Every Little Counts is the albums' throwaway moment,& SOTN always gets slagged off so seems to be everyone elses' throwaway moment whereas I love it.But the over-production,mentioned by Tony Wilson at the time & now admitted by Steve recently,simply ruined Paradise,AIIWIW,Broken Promise & WOL which live,were far more potent

Kel

Im glad we got that cleared up. AIIWIW is a fantastic song underneath. Its a real shame it (and other tracks) came out so bad. I mean Leave Me Alone was recorded 3 years prior but is excellently produced. Maybe Ill attempt to do a cover version.

For the record, I love SOTN. A great recording. Al