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Hey everyone first time posting. I am a big fan of JD and NO.
It seems like in a lot of Joy Division songs (not there poppier stuff) and some early new order songs, they did not use a lot of chord progressions. Maybe just one or two chords a song. Sounds like that to me. Is that true??
Bernard's guitar playing in Joy Division was split between "leads" and "chords" over Hooky's bass. A lot of classic Joy Division songs have two or three chords: Transmission, 24 Hours, Digital (in the sense that chords only appear during the day in day out part), Interzone, Isolation, Heart and Soul, Atmosphere (most obviously). The trick is in the layering, particularly in Atmosphere and Isolation, where the synths dominate. Also note that Hooky uses open 'D' to create 'drones', most notably on She's Lost Control, Love Will Tear Us Apart, and 24 Hours. The effect is to give texture (or rhythm) and harmony between bass and guitar (or synth) more prominence than say a lot of the other punk and post punk records of the era. Instead of doing power and bar chords constantly like the Sex Pistols, Clash, and Buzzcocks, Joy Division increasingly eschewed rigid chord frameworks for something more fluid yet more intricate as well. Of that era I feel, at least among British records, that only Metal Box (PiL) rivaled Joy Division in this regard, and in fact JD probably borrowed their approach to some extent, as 'Public Image' and its attendant album arrived several months before Unknown Pleasures.
With regard to early New Order, Bernard's guitar style was moving closer toward a kind of punk imitation of funk and disco guitar. Senses, EGG, and Temptation illustrate this transition. Age of Consent cleverly displays the Ennio Morricone influence as well. PCL is great example of all the possibilities in melody that can be made with just 2-3 chords.
Great topic and answers. One thing that always amazes me about NO is that they built so many fantastic songs around just a combination of 2 chords.
blackcat1980 wrote: Great topic and answers. One thing that always amazes me about NO is that they built so many fantastic songs around just a combination of 2 chords.
Ill second that. I would probably say Barneys style is the biggest influence on my guitar playing and one of the reasons I ever picked up a guitar. Some of his solos, chords and note playing are quite easy to pick up.
Alot of the time he does the simple things but does them bloody well. Great sense of rhythm on his playing, doesnt use 12 notes if 2 notes will do. And the chord riff for Regret is so simple but undeniably Barney.
A few of the early songs used C and F chords. EG Ceremony, Procession, Temptation (with G). So I guess to alot of non-NO folk that is why they think all New Order songs sound the same. Until they listen a little more of course.
Anyone ever notice that the tuning on the Lonesome Tonight recording is non-standard? I can never play along to it, even though by the looks of the play at home performance it's another C to F job. Still a great track---some of Barney's best, impressionistic lyrics.
JV wrote: Anyone ever notice that the tuning on the Lonesome Tonight recording is non-standard? I can never play along to it, even though by the looks of the play at home performance it's another C to F job. Still a great track---some of Barney's best, impressionistic lyrics.
Yeah, it's maddening. Fucking beautiful song though - so simple and yet so evocative.
New Order were brilliant because back in 1982, 1983, you heard any of those early tracks - from EGG on, especially PC&L - and it just sounded like they were from another planet. I remember being absolutely mesmerised, trying to suss out how they achieved those sounds, who played what, what was played by instruments, what was played by computers.
Eventually, as I learned more about music making, I got to admire them even more, especially because everything about their music was conceived by them, as opposed to people like the Pet Shop Boys or Depeche Mode, who have traditionally always relied greatly on producers/programmers to get the job done. (In that sense, Vince Clarke is ace, too.)
Even though only Stephen can actually play his instrument in the traditional sense of the expression (in the sense that you have to be a skilled and accomplished drummer to reproduce what he does), the talent and creativity of each one of them is out of the question.
In the history of electronic music, only Kraftwerk are more important than them for obvious reasons.
ROM wrote: New Order were brilliant because back in 1982, 1983, you heard any of those early tracks - from EGG on, especially PC&L - and it just sounded like they were from another planet. I remember being absolutely mesmerised, trying to suss out how they achieved those sounds, who played what, what was played by instruments, what was played by computers.
Eventually, as I learned more about music making, I got to admire them even more, especially because everything about their music was conceived by them, as opposed to people like the Pet Shop Boys or Depeche Mode, who have traditionally always relied greatly on producers/programmers to get the job done. (In that sense, Vince Clarke is ace, too.)
Even though only Stephen can actually play his instrument in the traditional sense of the expression (in the sense that you have to be a skilled and accomplished drummer to reproduce what he does), the talent and creativity of each one of them is out of the question.
In the history of electronic music, only Kraftwerk are more important than them for obvious reasons.
Good points about Stephen's technique. Would suggest that Hooky's dexterity is really critical to his style (the rapid melodies on Perfect Kiss and Round and Round immediately come to mind). No less a player than Johnny Marr has remarked that Barney's sense of rhythm/attack is unique and actually quite precise. As for Gillian, her musicianship has always been the least rated, maybe unfairly due to early flubs caught on live tape, but watch her guitar playing on "Dream Attack" from Montreux Jazz Festival '93---total ease and a flawless performance from what I can tell.
thanks for the excellent answers everyone.
So are most of there songs in minor or major??
Because a lot of the time their music doesn't have that strong sad minor feeling. But it does not have a happy feeling either, more in the middle
Barney seems to have trouble playing minor chords on the guitar sometimes. A song will hint strongly toward a minor key, and he'll just play major chords throughout, like Sunrise. Very strange.
Examples of NO songs in major key: Ceremony EGG Temptation Age of Consent The Village Your Silent Face Thieves Like Us The Perfect Kiss Face Up All Day Long BLT All The Way Run Regret
Minor key: Blue Monday We All Stand Confusion This Time of Night Elegia Subculture Paradise Angel Dust True Faith Vanishing Point (Verses) Dream Attack Ruined In A Day Young Offender
Maltodextrin wrote: Barney seems to have trouble playing minor chords on the guitar sometimes. A song will hint strongly toward a minor key, and he'll just play major chords throughout, like Sunrise. Very strange.
Examples of NO songs in major key: Ceremony EGG Temptation Age of Consent The Village Your Silent Face Thieves Like Us The Perfect Kiss Face Up All Day Long BLT All The Way Run Regret
Minor key: Blue Monday We All Stand Confusion This Time of Night Elegia Subculture Paradise Angel Dust True Faith Vanishing Point (Verses) Dream Attack Ruined In A Day Young Offender
Which is weird, 'cause JD songs are often in minor keys. Or just more chromatic, i.e. major to minor shifts. Day of the Lords has both Eminor and Emajor, for example.
Can I just say that I fucking HATE this forum software that likes to eat your messages? I can't wait for the new forum that's apparently in the works. In the meantime, retyping from memory:
Awesome discussion, particularly the points about layering, and rhythm and texture vs melody.
One of the things that makes New Order so interesting to me is what they did wrong - in a conventional band, Hooky should have been the lead guitarist and Barney the funky drummer. Instead we get a guitarist with an amazing sense of timing and a bassist with an amazing sense of melody, and everything is upside-down and perfect at the same time.
Another factor is the synthesis between members. JD was a collective creative engine, and that seems to have continued with New Order (they've described it as a democracy). Each of the individual contributions is often very simple in isolation, but when you combine them you get the proverbial whole greater than the sum of its parts. Gillian doesn't get enough respect, in my opinion, but when she left the band it noticeably suffered (sorry Phil), and it's impossible to imagine New Order without Steve (another one who defies expectations - not only is the drummer the most technically proficient, he's also possibly the smartest member).
Their music has been described to me as simplistic, and maybe it is from a jazzhead's perspective, but so what - no one's ever done more with less, as far as I'm concerned.
Another point, re Barney's guitar playing: he may not change chords very often, but he's never boring. He tends to move around a lot on the neck and pick different single note lines, and he's got a great ear for variation and simple but catchy riffs.
I think of Barney as the punk Neil Young. His guitar playing, espeically his leads in Shadowplay, sometimes make me think of a punkier Neil Young, and as a singer, Bernard's voice has the same, plaintinive, expressive feel that Neil Youngs does.
ROM wrote:
Eventually, as I learned more about music making, I got to admire them even more, especially because everything about their music was conceived by them...
In the history of electronic music, only Kraftwerk are more important than them for obvious reasons.
Have you never heard anything by Wendy Carlos, Isao Tomita, mid-70s Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Ashra/Manuel Göttsching, Giorgio Moroder... ?
New Order certainly deserve credit for popularizing electronic instrumentation, but very little of what they did was ground-breaking in that regard. Good yes, but hardly ground-breaking.
